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12-30-2000, 01:01 PM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
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* An unofficial New Silmarillion Outline *
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 159</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> [Editorial Note: the latest version of the outline is to be found , suprise suprise , at the end, so for new readers, you may wish to start on page 3 or 4.]* * * * Here is a rough draft of my current vision of an expanded Silmarillion . these are mere chapter outlines following the 1977 published Silm. I have listed the name of the chapter from the 1977 version and then added the names of texts that contains material for consideration from HoME and UT. Please comment and query and question away. I am sure there are whole sections of HoME 3-5 material I have glossed over because I have hardly read those books! So feel free to add to the chapter lists of possible additions. This outline presumes Michael Martinez's concept [and others] of discounting the Myth's transformed material. Obviously this is an arbitrary way to begin [ or I shall say continue] a discussion of these matters but it suited my other purposes well. If anyone likes the idea of supplementing the Silm. w/ additional Tolkien material, is anyone interested in roughing out a pilot chapter - I believeTour and the fall of Gondolin has been mentioned before. so here is the outline: ******* AINULINDALE-remain more or less the same VALAQUENTA-check HoME for additional details/modifications ----------- QUENTA SILMARILLION [chapters listed are from 1977 Silmarillion] all othe chapters not listed would still need to be compared w/ the many versions in the History series. Below however I list the major texts [or parts ] which I think[at this point at least] can be inserted somehow into the respective * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * chapters. This is by no means an exhaustive listing ,just a framework to hang further ideas on -or take them off. Please feel free to monkey around w/ it and put up a new one. I am hoping to engender discussion -not have the final word.[even about an outline ]. ch.3] OF THE COMING OF THE ELVES ... add parts of 'Quendi and Eldar'[vol 11] ch.5] OF ELDAMAR AND THE PRINCES OFTHE ELDALIE * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * add'Finwe and Miriel 'and 'Laws and Customs among the Eldar' {HoME10} or would * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * this be better placed in an appendix ? ch.6] OF FEANOR AND THE UNCHAINING OF MELKOR add from 'Shibboleth of Feanor'[HoME 12] ch.13] OF THE RETUPN OF THE NOLDOR add from'Shibboleth of Feanor'[HoME 12] chs.14 & 15] OF BELERIAND/NOLDOR AND ITS REALMS add from 'Shibboleth of Feanor'[HoME 12] ch 16] OF MAEGLIN from 'maeglin' in HoME11 ch 17] OF THE COMING OF MEN INTO THE WEST add from' the Druedain'[Unfinished Tales] and Finrod and Andreth{HoME10} ch19] OF BEREN AND LUTHIEN add from Lays? [HoME3] ch 21]OF TURIN TURAMBAR addthe 'Narn I Chin Hurin' [Unfinished Tales} and 'Wanderings of Hurin' [HoME 11] ch.22] OF THE RUIN OF DORIATH [Eru only, knows what we can do w/ this one ] ch.23] OF TOUR AND THE FALL OF GONDOLIN add of 'Of Tour and his coming to Gondolin [Unfinished Tales ]and details fromHoME 2 [and others?] ===== I won't try and get into a Second Age/Akallabeth & Of the Rings... outline yet . -------------- </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 4/17/01 9:36:42 am [ February 17, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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01-01-2001, 06:11 PM
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#2 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 332</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: A Silmarillion Outline/Proposal <blockquote>Quote:<hr> This outline presumes Michael Martinez's concept [and others] of discounting the Myth's transformed material.<hr></blockquote> A personal choice. One I disagree personally with, but that's neither here nor there for the purposes of this I suppose. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Obviously this is an arbitrary way to begin [ or I shall say continue] a discussion of these matters but it suited my other purposes well.<hr></blockquote> Since there are ulterior motives; I'll wait and see how they progress. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> If anyone likes the idea of supplementing the Silm. w/ additional Tolkien material, is anyone interested in roughing out a pilot chapter - I believe Tour and the fall of Gondolin has been mentioned before.<hr></blockquote> I have some of it done already for my own purposes. As an example of my efforts; I would be willing to submit my 're-working' of the LOTR epilogue. Obviously it could not be posted here... If interested; and after reading the effort, if a chapter is delegated to me I could be persuaded to muster the attention to complete it. {Perhaps it would even be one I have completed already <img src=wink.gif ALT="  "> but those shall remain unknown).I would make a comment however; you seem to be adding material from sources that would\will contradict earlier material and needing excessive deletion of material that would cause you problems in this effort. Perhaps you should reconsider your earlier position on Myths Transformed since the documents you are selecting are directly tied to, based upon, and wedded with the later conception that IS Myths Transformed <img src=wink.gif ALT=" "> </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000133>Saulotus </A> at: 1/1/01 7:12:48 pm |
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01-02-2001, 10:11 AM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 161</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> outline and preliminary discussions "I would make a comment however; you seem to be adding material from sources that would\will contradict earlier material and needing excessive deletion of material that would cause you problems in this effort. Perhaps you should reconsider your earlier position on Myths Transformed since the documents you are selecting are directly tied to, based upon, and wedded with the later conception that IS Myths Transformed " I am not suggesting all material from any given addition be added-only that which does not contradict the last conception [excepting Myth's Transformed]. I have seen others state this principle more succinctly, but I think I am getting my point across thus. I would see a Myth's Transformed Silmarillion as a final version to be attempted as it would require such a great deal of rewriting or leaving of gaps that I would rather workwith a format that leaves the bulk of the 1977 edition intact and is mainly additions and a few deletions as absolutely necessary. I agree w/ an opinion M.Martinez expressed once , although I have since seen him say otherwise , which is[paraphrased] that there is room for any # of approaches. A Myth's Transformed version and Aelfwine/Eriol version etc.. My ulterior motives I alluded to are simply that I would like to be able to read the tales w/ the maximum amount of detail and length . No big mysteries there. In terms of working on a chapter what I had in mind was a group effort-although this may prove unweildy. Taimar and Mithadan have expressed certain amounts of interest in the past. I would be most interested in reading anything you want to share. my email is theryans@best.com lindil </p>
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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01-02-2001, 04:30 PM
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Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 425</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: outline and preliminary discussions Perhaps, at last, a baby step in the right direction? From the first, I have suggested (argued) that the best way to approach this is to: (1) decide what format the Canon will take; and (2) decide what will be included. By discussing what part Myths Transformed will take, whether all agree or not with its inclusion or non-inclusion, you have, at least started to think about the seminal issue of what is the canon , i.e. what is included and what is not. Myths Transformed is probably the lynchpin. You can't start writing anything without deciding whether to include it because what JRRT wanted to change impacts upon the whole Legendarium, from Ainulindale to Earendil and beyond to Numenor. Deciding what goes in will probably dictate format. Nonetheless, there are probably only a few formats which might work: (1) the chapter approach; (2) a tale of years approach (just occurred to me and may avoid copyright problems as well as the need to figure out how to rewrite whole segments of the Sil); (3) the annotation approach; and (4) the encyclopedia approach (fit the issues into encyclopedia entries). Lindil, set up a private mail account through your EZ Board Profile. Easier than trying to recall e-mail addresses and newcomers (if any, come on people chime in) won't have to ask for it or go looking for it. --Mithadan-- "The Silmarils with living light were kindled clear, and waxing bright shone like stars that in the North above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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01-03-2001, 10:31 AM
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 333</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: outline and preliminary discussions Posted by Lindil <blockquote>Quote:<hr> I would see a Myth's Transformed Silmarillion as a final version to be attempted as it would require such a great deal...<hr></blockquote> As I said before; This is one approach. I would be willing to work with the idea, but have personal feelings that it is the wrong course of action. Perhaps an actual attempt might be made on the side to see just exactly how much is affected before absolute judgements are passed. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> I agree w/ an opinion M.Martinez expressed once , although I have since seen him say otherwise...<hr></blockquote> I believe earlier somewhere here that I stated where these elements were ultimately to be linked. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> I would be most interested in reading anything you want to share<hr></blockquote> Sure. I assume you have hard copy of the original epilogue versions to compare the integration with. You may express your opinion here [please do! One way or the other doesn't bother me, so long as it's honest] of your evaluation on the possibility and practicality to convincingly mesh seemingly alternate tacts while keeping the original intent very much intact; >without< writing new material; using this as a 'test' piece. Posted by Mithadan <blockquote>Quote:<hr> You can't start writing anything without deciding whether to include it because what JRRT wanted to change impacts upon the whole Legendarium, from Ainulindale to Earendil and beyond to Numenor.<hr></blockquote> I believe that was the point I was mentioning earlier. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> there are probably only a few formats which might work: (1) the chapter approach;<hr></blockquote> I think this is what Lindil is suggesting. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> (2) a tale of years approach (just occurred to me and may avoid copyright problems as well as the need to figure out how to rewrite whole segments of the Sil);<hr></blockquote> A TOY was suggested earlier as a basis to begin this with. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> (3) the annotation approach;<hr></blockquote> Icky. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> (4) the encyclopedia approach (fit the issues into encyclopedia entries).<hr></blockquote> Double icky. </p> |
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01-05-2001, 02:20 PM
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2000
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 341</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: outline and preliminary discussions Guess he hated it. <img src=wink.gif ALT=" "> </p> |
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01-05-2001, 06:26 PM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 162</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: outline and preliminary discussions Sorry for the delay my nice long carefuly worded reply to the last 2 posts and the epilouge crashed and I have not had the time to replace it in a worthy manner. I will try and do so tonight but I may not post anything substantial till sun pm or mon. We are entering into the Feast of the Nativity [Christmas ] of the Orthodox Church [those still on the old Julian Calendar anyway] so we will be away at services for the weekend. In brief though I thought the epilog was great. I had written an outline of what I thought we were more or less in agreement on and what I thought the next decisions needed to be to proceed w/ actually working on a text. Merry Christmas lindil </p>
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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01-09-2001, 11:45 AM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 168</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Re: outline I have made a few additions to the original and slowly begun using th new abreviations [see abbreviations thread] and reformatted it [w/ a little less chaos I hope] . ----------- QUENTA SILMARILLION - [chapters listed are from 1977 Silmarillion] aka. "77" - all othe chapters not listed would still need to be compared w/ the many versions in the History series. - Below however I list the major texts [or parts ] which I think[at this point at least] can be inserted in whole or part into the respective chapters. -This is by no means an exhaustive listing ,just a framework to hang further ideas on -or take them off. I am sure there are alot of things I havn't                                                         caught yet so... Please feel free to monkey around w/ it and put up a new one.                                                 so here is the outline: ================================ AINULINDALE-remain more or less the same VALAQUENTA-                                         check entire HoME for additional details/modifications                                                                 ******* ch.3] OF THE COMING OF THE ELVES                                                 ... add parts of 'Quendi andEldar'[vol 11] ch.5] OF ELDAMAR AND THE PRINCES OFTHE ELDALIE add'Finwe and Miriel 'and 'Laws and Customs among the                                                                         Eldar' {HoME10} or would this be better placed in an appendix ? ch.6] OF FEANOR AND THE UNCHAINING OF MELKOR add from 'Shibboleth of Feanor'[HoME 12] also the beautiful expanded account in I                                                 [akaHoME 1] of the festival the Eldar where at when Melkor attacked the                                                         trees. ch.13] OF THE RETUPN OF THE NOLDOR                                         add from'Shibboleth of Feanor'[HoME 12] chs.14 & 15] OF BELERIAND/NOLDOR AND ITS REALMS                                         add from 'Shibboleth of Feanor'[HoME 12] ch 16] OF MAEGLIN                                                 add from 'maeglin' in HoME11                                 ++++++++Saulotus has a draft of this completed!!! +++++++++ ch 17] OF THE COMING OF MEN INTO THE WEST add from' the Druedain'[Unfinished Tales] and Finrod and Andreth{HoME10} and On Dwarves and Men [HoME 12] ch19] OF BEREN AND LUTHIEN add from Lays? [HoME3] ch 21]OF TURIN TURAMBAR addthe 'Narn I Chin Hurin' [Unfinished Tales} and 'Wanderings of Hurin' [HoME 11]        ch.22] OF THE RUIN OF DORIATH [Eru only, knows what we can do w/ this one!!! ] ch.23] OF TOUR AND THE FALL OF GONDOLIN add of 'Of Tour and his coming to Gondolin [Unfinished Tales ]and details fromHoME 2 [and IV and V]                                         ===== lindil </p>
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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01-09-2001, 12:20 PM
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Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 455</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Re: outline We need to make decisions concerning Myths Transformed. This issue is decidedly central to any Canon effort. I'm somewhat on the fence for many different reasons. As a result, I'm starting a new thread to hash this one out once and for all. --Mithadan-- "The Silmarils with living light were kindled clear, and waxing bright shone like stars that in the North above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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01-09-2001, 12:38 PM
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Shadow of Malice
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 192</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: outline I think that the new draft should stick to a basic chronological outline as much as possible. I am ok with adding from HoME and UT where necessary or appropriate, i.e. adding UT Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin to The Fall of Gondolin. But drawing from texts such as UT The Druedain, should be left to a later chapter and should not be incorporated with The Coming of Men into the West. I think the Chapter 'Of Maeglin' should be moved from after the Lay of Lethian to after the the bit on Tuor. Of Turin Turambar should follow Of Maeglin, and then the Ruin of Doriath. After all of that, I think one of you said something on one of the older threads in here about actual extending '77. This should be done by Placing two seperate books in the new silm. the first could be the Akallabeth, and the second should be everything that occurred during the Second Age in ME(insert The Druedain here). The second book should take most of the chapters from UT. </p> |
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01-09-2001, 01:13 PM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 170</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: outline Greetings Durleen , great ideas. as for adding Finrod and Andreth, Druedain and such into the Silm. it is my personal solution to the fact that we will never see JRRT's full Silm. and so where material rom HoME/UT is chronologically and stopywise relevant. But discussion is what we need ! We all will probably have our pet ideas, which everyone else wants to shoot down, which should down -which we should humbly take as a sign! I will unfortunately as things are just heating up and all of us are posting have to jump out till late tonight but I am glad we are getting down to nuts and bolts. Mithadan , I prefer all working on one text [if large] together, because it will gives us a much greater sense of community and if we are all working from the same books and principles will be reasonably limited. I think the # of variations . Smaller maeglin like texts are prob. best solo efforts. As for base texts and Tuor [sorry I am answering here but I don't have time to get back to the other thread at the moment] Each major subsection [T.'s coming /up to MAeglin's betrayel/the battle/ flight can all have different base texts ] assuming we are aiming for a homogenous style throughout the chapters . lindil </p>
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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01-15-2001, 08:22 AM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 222</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> CRRT and Silm org. Durelen said:        I think that the new draft should stick to a basic chronological outline as much as possible. I am ok with adding from HoME and UT where necessary or appropriate, i.e. adding UT Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin to The Fall of Gondolin. agreed Durelen said: But drawing from texts such as UT The Druedain, should be left to a later chapter and should not be incorporated with The Coming of Men into the West. I don't know of a later Silm chapter that could accomadate it. Unless we create a new chapter altogether [?] which is something I have not as yet invisaged. All of the goings on of Turin/ Hurinin Brethil are pretty self-contained. A Silmarilion appendix maybe the best place. Although a bit of Druedain,and Finrod and Andreth, to my mind might possibly fit into of the coming of men, as a historical note to what was going on , more than the fulfledged tale. Durelen said: I think the Chapter 'Of Maeglin' should be moved from after the Lay of Lethian to after the the bit on Tuor. But Maeglin is already in Gondolin when Tuor gets there , and has been for some hundred[s] of years perhaps there is something here I am not getting. Durelen said: After all of that, I think one of you said something on one of the older threads in here about actual extending '77. This should be done by Placing two seperate books in the new silm. the first could be the Akallabeth, and the second should be everything that occurred during the Second Age in ME(insert The Druedain here). The second book should take most of the chapters from UT. I agree in principle,although I would say 2nd and 3rd age, as the Galadriel material is both. As is Cirion and Eorl and the Istari. It could end w/ the quest for Erebor ,as a segue into' the hobbit' I would give it a working title of say, 'Of the Rings of Power and the tales of the Second and Third Ages Re: the Numenorean Material , I would like [not nec. now] like to brainstorm the possibilities of including 'description of the isle of Numenor'the Line of Elros into the Akallabeth [mostly as aprelude ] and Aldarion and Erendis as an interude, the Akallabeth can stand as an independently titled substory at the end. =========== I just foung an interesting quote of CRRT which belongs in lit. devices , but as I am here now ... It is CRRT speaking frankly of his editorial [and a bit more] handling p. 8 UT : ' ...and in the earlier part of the story [Aldarion and Erendis] I have rewritten much of the material in the attempt to give some degree of stylistic homogeneity. throughout it's course. this rewriting is entirely a matter of of wording , and never alters meaning or introduces inauthentic elements .' ============ This is something to debate on another thread maybe, as the lines between JRRT/Fanfiction have blurred here. I myself have never had a problem w/CRRT's doing what needed to be done to get 77 and UT to us, it is only now w/ HoME that he honestly tells us he backed away from the big job his father was aiming for [both MT and Old style versions] this is where my dissatisfaction comes in. not by any means do I think I could have done better w/ a chaotic mass of fading manuscripts that he had. I would have given up in despair, or [at the very best -which is unlikely] as he did publish the relatively finished and straightforward stuff quickly [UT] and make a Silm that was more or less streamlined and avoided many of the really thorny issues [except the death of thingol] which was unavoidable, which he did [77]. And then if I couldn't rest; turn to making a compilation of the whole mess. [HoME]. thus we have published for us, as neatly as can be all [or 95% +] of the material needed to do what CRRT could have done ,had he pondered longer , done alot of difficult homework on the HoME stuff first, before publishing 77, and applying the above principles of supplementational writing he mentions and used in UT. thoughts? lindil </p>
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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01-15-2001, 08:31 AM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 224</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> I forgot My original purpose of posting on this thread was to update the chapter outline as reflected by the DoV situation , but I got pleasently distracted w/ the CRRT quote and durelen's comments which I had never properly addressed . So any way ,I will try and update the outline/proposal soon. lindil </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 1/16/01 2:47:16 am
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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01-16-2001, 03:04 PM
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2000
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 382</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: I forgot Appendix items would be best I think for the Numenorean material. (I personally used it for an additional appendix for LOTR same as I did for AOTB heh.) Druedain was originally a part of Of Dwarves And Men and perhaps should be considered to be included into Aldarion and Erendis or something similar. I haven't addressed that point myself as of yet. Just my $.02 worth. </p> |
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01-16-2001, 05:07 PM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 255</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Druedain At least the bit about the land being unsteady under their feet. Offhand w/ out looking carefully at the books i would rather see Faithful stone and the 1st age stuff in the 1st age. lindil </p>
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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01-16-2001, 05:14 PM
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#16 |
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Dread Horseman
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 328</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Druedain Hey! Faithful Stone and the 1st Age Stuff is my favorite disco band! (Sorry, couldn't resist.) </p> |
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01-18-2001, 11:30 AM
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Shade of Carn Dûm
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 393</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Druedain Disco? DISCO? DISCO????????????????????????????????????????????? ? Have you had that hormonal imbalance checked lately? Are you suffering any dizzy spells, strange smells, or tourette's syndrome? (Sorry; nor could I) </p> |
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01-21-2001, 08:50 AM
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,680
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 276</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> New Outline A Few Notes. +++This outline does not as yet reflect the group consensus on all points [or on very many] it is primarily the opinions of lindil who loves lists and such. +++ I have endeavored to include such decisions as the group has made [esp. in following the X versions of chapters ad subchapters for the Early Silmarillion. +++Even where not specifically mentioned it is assumed that All relevant Annals of IV,V,X, and XI will be consulted. +++I have begu [but not completed using the abbreviations used in the thread of the same name-so check there for resolution to any obscurities. ++++ [chapters listed from 1977 Silmarillion { aka. "77}" are brackeeted]"and in time the 77 chapters will be replaced by an entirely new system based on the final revisions of Morgoth's Ring and War of the Jewels. ++++ all othe chapters not listed would still need to be compared w/ the many versions in the History series. ++++ Below however I list the major texts [or parts ] which I think[at this point at least] can be inserted in whole or part into the respective chapters. ++++This is by no means an exhaustive listing ,just a framework to hang further ideas on -or take them off. I am sure there are alot of things I havn't caught yet so... Please feel free to monkey around w/ it and put up a new one. ++++ The outline does not yet reflect the inclusion of the remarkable texts omitted by CRRT from HoME but given by him to the remarkable journal Vinyar Tengwar, I hope to includde this in the near future. ++++ This not an outline that takes the more radical farreaching ideas of Myth's transsformed into account . The thread of that name covers some issues , but more recently and importantly Saulotus has posted [and done much researchand editing already] on this topic . Perhaps an outline similar to this w/explanations of the changes involved in a MT versionof each chapter will appear at some point in the future? <img src=wink.gif ALT=" "> so here is the OLD STYLE SILMARILLION outline as it stands now: ================================ AINULINDALE/VALAQUNTA -not yet outlined ----------- QUENTA SILMARILLION ****** 1 Of VALINOR AND THE TWO TREES /[1]OF THE BEGINING DAYS [2] OF AULE AND YAVANNA 3 OF THE COMING OF THE ELVES .. add parts of 'Quendi andEldar'[vol 11] 4 OF THINGOL AND MELIAN 5 OF ELDAMAR [ELDANOR ?] AND THE PRINCES OFTHE ELDALIE 6 {OF THE SILMARILLS}THE DARKENING OF VALINOR [the subchapter division is from X] FINWE AND MIRIEL [w/possible selections from Laws&Customs...' HoME X] OF FEANOR AND THE UNCHAINING OF MELKOR OF THE SILMARILS AND THE UNREST OF THE NOLDOR add from'Shibboleth of Feanor' ?[HoME 12] OF THE DARKENING OF VALINOR add from [HoME 1] of the festival of valinor OF THE RAPE OF THE SILMARILLS OF THE THIEVES ' QUARREL 7 OF THE FLIGHT OF THE NOLDOR add from'Shibboleth of Feanor'[HoMEXII] 8 OF THE SUN ANDTHE MOON AND THE HIDING OF VALINOR 9 OF MEN 10 OF THE SIEGE OF ANGBAND 11 OF BELERIAND AND IT'S REALMS /[XV] OF THE NOLDOR IN BELERIAND add from 'Shibboleth of Feanor' ?[HoME 12] 12 OF TURGON AND THE BUILDING OF GONDOLIN 13 CONCERNING THE DWARVES add from ' On Dwarves and Men' [HoME 12] 14 OF THE COMING OF MENINTO THE WEST add from' the Druedain'[Unfinished Tales] and Finrod and Andreth{HoME10} and On Dwarves and Men [HoME 12] 15 OF THE RUIN OF BELERIAND AND THE FALL OF FINGOLFIN 16 ?- BEREN AND LUTHIEN add from Lays [HoME3] [16] OF MAEGLIN add from 'maeglin' in HoMEXI [2O] OF THE FIFTH BATTLE:NIRNAETH ARNOEDIAD [21] OF TURIN TURAMBAR addthe 'Narn I Chin Hurin' [U T} and 'Wanderings of Hurin' [HoME 11] and from III [22] OF THE RUIN OF DORIATH add from II,IV,V and later sketches of Hurin? [23] OF TOUR AND THE FALL OF GONDOLIN add of 'Of Tour and his coming to Gondolin [Unfinished Tales ]and details of the battle of the city fromHoME 2 [24] OF THE VOYAGE OF EARENDILAND THE WAR OF WRATH Appendices to the Silm {?} LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR FINROD AND AND ANDRETH [ATHRABETH] QUENDI AND ELDAR TALE OF YEARS/ANNALS OF THE 1ST AGE ELVISH DICTIONARY [?] I have incorporated an edited bit of a note from Durelen that goes into the idea of the reworking of the Akallabeth , and a history of the 2nd and 3rd ages. " The second book should [be] everything that occurred during the Second Age in ME(insert The Druedainhere) take most of the chapters from UT. '" ===== Comments on the outline, possible revisions and omissions from the 'additions ' are of course most welcome. Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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01-21-2001, 10:41 AM
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#19 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 425</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: New Outline Nice outline; and I see what is intended. However >I< think that the legendarium of the fathers of men should include the 3 main tales of men in the second book, not the first. Other than that it seems perfectly fine. Other opinions? </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000133>Saulotus </A> at: 1/21/01 11:47:54 am |
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01-21-2001, 04:52 PM
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#20 |
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Shadow of Malice
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: right behind you
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 295</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: New Outline It does look very nice. Looked at the outline breifly didn't quit look at everything else. </p> |
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01-22-2001, 03:01 AM
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#21 |
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,680
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 285</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Tales of the Edain I know JRRT wanted to have the full scale versions of Beren and Luthien, Tuor and the Narn I Hurin [ 1 other?] in an appendix at the end. But the big prob . w/ that imo is that none of the full-length versions is complete [in it's final form] . So I have always been in favor of supplementing the comprressed quenta . If you put the 3 [their fragments] in the appendix, it would defeat much of the purpose I ever saw in an expanded canon in the first place, which is the fullest ,closest to the final conception [w/MT being a possible exception], and richest presentation possible. Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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01-22-2001, 03:12 AM
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#22 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 434</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Tales of the Edain Ok. It sure sounded like you were proposing a second 'book' detailing Numenor and the second and third ages. Just meant that the 3 tales mentioned were constructed by Men (Lay as one example of this), not elves and seemed apropos there instead of in the elvish 'lore' area, nothing more than that. </p> |
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01-22-2001, 03:50 AM
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#23 |
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Seeker of the Straight Path
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 288</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> elves and men I do picture along w/ durelen[if I understand him cor.] a sort of super "of the rings of power and the [second &] third age", not everything can be fit into this format [numenor would be specificaly excluded] , and I would guess that is 1 reason JRRT had ,essys, a tale of years and longer stories. However , a more fleshed out version seems def. possible containg the larger narratives [ galdriel, gladden fields, filled in by the TOY/ rings of power material. I personally find the TOY format very unsatisfying , and I wonder if he used it just to keep track of the many webs he was weaving simaltaneously? This is an idea [of the rings 2/3 age] which,obviously has yet to be scrutinized closely. lindil </p> finally found the gender bend! sorry D. [ February 17, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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01-22-2001, 04:09 AM
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#24 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2000
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 436</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: elves and men <blockquote>Quote:<hr> [Concerning TOY] and I wonder if he used it just to keep track of the many webs he was weaving simaltaneously<hr></blockquote> I would take that as a given. And precisely one of the reasons I claimed that it would (in the end) be the only 'fully' satisfactory 'canon' that could ever be presented, but we are in essence talking a re-edited Sil here and now, not a 'canon' Sil. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> This is an idea [of the rings 2/3 age] which, obviously has yet to be scrutinized closely<hr></blockquote> True enough, and there is plenty of time to cross that particular bridge. </p> |
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01-22-2001, 05:20 AM
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#25 |
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 289</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> the everevolving conceptions " And precisely one of the reasons I claimed that it would (in the end) be the only 'fully' satisfactory 'canon' that could ever be presented, but we are in essence talking a re-edited Sil here and now, not a 'canon' Sil. probably true enough. I have found w/ every aspect of this project, that I have to re-examine each step at least 1X. It could be canon in terms of the idea's /form's of story chosen , but re-edit interms of how the peices are put together. I recall posting somewhere a month or so ago that there is something of a distinction between the final conceptions [idea canon] and the final possible literary story[text canon] For the moment I see this as a tangle for a larger group to try and unknot. My personal goal is to see [literally] all of the non-conflicting story material peiced together in as readable a fashion as possible. W/ the current materials ,this is doable. My goals w/ the project are to engage and in this trial run w/ the group of us and see where we go , and what we come up w/. I def. know I will come out of it understanding the books far better than I do now, and a better idea of what is and isn't possible w/ editing/canon/FF and the like [ both of which will help w/ the per. goal]. lindil </p>
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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01-23-2001, 12:40 AM
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#26 |
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,680
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 308</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> a few additions and new layout New Outline A Few Notes: +++This outline does not as yet reflect the group consensus on all points [as the group has not yet debated most of them formally] it is primarily the opinions of lindil who loves lists and drafts and such. +++ I have endeavored to include such decisions as the group has made [esp. in following the X versions of chapters ad subchapters for the Silmarilion. +++Even where not specifically mentioned it is assumed that All relevant Annals of IV,V,X, and XI will be consulted. +++I have begun [but not completed using the abbreviations used in the thread of the same name-so check there for resolution to any obscurities. ++++ [chapters listed from 1977 Silmarillion { aka. "77}" are brackeeted]"and in time the 77 chapters will be replaced by an entirely new system based on the final revisions of Morgoth's Ring and War of the Jewels. ++++ Below however I list the major texts [or parts ] which I think[at this point at least] can be inserted in whole or part into the respective chapters. ++++This is by no means an exhaustive listing ,just a framework to hang further ideas on -or take them off. I am sure there are alot of things I havn't caught yet so... Please feel free to monkey around w/ it and put up a new one.Or debate w/ me fiercely . ++++ The outline does not yet reflect the inclusion of the remarkable texts omitted by CRRT from HoME but given by him to the remarkable journal Vinyar Tengwar, I hope to includde this in the near future. ++++ This not an outline that takes the more radical farreaching ideas of Myth's transsformed into account . The thread of that name covers some issues , but more recently and importantly Saulotus has posted [and done much researchand editing already] on this topic . Perhaps an outline similar to this w/explanations of the changes involved in a MT versionof each chapter will appear at some point in the future? so here is the OLD STYLE SILMARILLION outline as it stands now: ================================ AINULINDALE/VALAQUNTA -not yet outlined ----------- QUENTA SILMARILLION ****** 1 Of VALINOR AND THE TWO TREES /[1]OF THE BEGINING DAYS [2] OF AULE AND YAVANNA 3 OF THE COMING OF THE ELVES .. add parts of 'Quendi andEldar'[vol 11] 4 OF THINGOL AND MELIAN 5 OF ELDAMAR [ELDANOR ?] AND THE PRINCES OFTHE ELDALIE                                                 add from History of Galadriel and celeborn [p.229-3O] 6 {OF THE SILMARILLS}THE DARKENING OF VALINOR [the subchapter*         division is from X] *FINWE AND MIRIEL [w/possible selections from Laws&Customs...' HoME         X] * OF FEANOR AND THE UNCHAINING OF MELKOR *OF THE SILMARILS AND THE UNREST OF THE NOLDOR add from'Shibboleth of Feanor' ?[HoME 12] * OF THE DARKENING OF VALINOR add from [HoME 1] of the festival of valinor * OF THE RAPE OF THE SILMARILLS *OF THE THIEVES ' QUARREL 7 OF THE FLIGHT OF THE NOLDOR add from'Shibboleth of Feanor'[HoMEXII] 8 OF THE SUN ANDTHE MOON AND THE HIDING OF VALINOR 9 OF MEN 10 OF THE SIEGE OF ANGBAND 11 OF BELERIAND AND IT'S REALMS /[XV] OF THE NOLDOR IN         BELERIAND                 add from 'Shibboleth of Feanor' ?[HoME 12] 12 OF TURGON AND THE BUILDING OF GONDOLIN 13 CONCERNING THE DWARVES         add from ' On Dwarves and Men' [HoME 12] 14 OF THE COMING OF MENINTO THE WEST         add from' the Druedain'[Unfinished Tales] and Finrod and         Andreth{HoME10} and On Dwarves and Men [HoME 12]        15 OF THE RUIN OF BELERIAND AND THE FALL OF FINGOLFIN 16 ?- BEREN AND LUTHIEN         add from Lays [HoME3] [16] OF MAEGLIN         add from 'maeglin' in HoMEXI [2O] OF THE FIFTH BATTLE:NIRNAETH ARNOEDIAD [21] OF TURIN TURAMBAR addthe 'Narn I Chin Hurin' [U T} and 'Wanderings of Hurin' [HoME 11] and from III [22] OF THE RUIN OF DORIATH add from II,IV,V and later sketches of Hurin? [23] OF TOUR AND THE FALL OF GONDOLIN add of 'Of Tour and his coming to Gondolin [Unfinished Tales ]and details of the battle of the city fromHoME 2 [24] OF THE VOYAGE OF EARENDILAND THE WAR OF WRATH Appendices to the Silm LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR FINROD AND AND ANDRETH [ATHRABETH] QUENDI AND ELDAR TALE OF YEARS/ANNALS OF THE 1ST AGE ELVISH DICTIONARY [?] I have incorporated an edited bit of a note from Durelen that goes into the idea of the reworking of the Akallabeth , and a history of the 2nd and 3rd ages. " The second book should [be] everything that occurred during the Second Age in ME (insert The Druedain here) take most of the chapters from UT. '" ===== Comments on the outline, possible revisions and omissions from the 'additions ' are of course most welcome. Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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01-23-2001, 12:08 PM
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Hobbitus Emeritus
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: South Farthing
Posts: 635
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 12</TD><TD><img src=http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/gilthalion.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: a few additions and new layout This is a really incredible project! I really don't think that I could be of much help to you at this conceptual stage. I have, and have read THE SILMARILLION, THE HOBBIT, THE LORD OF THE RINGS, & UNFINISHED TALES. I am familiar with these works, but have absolutely no basis for a valid opinion about the HOME or anything beyond what I have read and enjoyed. The enjoyment, I'm good at. I'd be happy to help out with polishing language, etc. For a look at a recent effort of mine, try http://pub22.ezboard.com/bgreatadventuresTHE HOBBITS</a>, where I am attempting a Tolkien Fan Novel. The layout of the board might be of help to you in this project, since I tried to consider the logistics of collaborative writing/editing on EZBOARD. THE HOBBITS is set in the days after Samwise passes West. Various of his young relations have quite a time in the days of King Elessar and Queen Arwen. I postulate the birth of Eldarion in these days... There are four chapters completed. I attempt a writing style similar to THE HOBBIT, seeing this as a "bookend" sort of work, coming after LOTR. The password for the EDITING FORUM, where the outline can be found, is "elediriel." I don't know if this would be helpful to you or not, but it might be a pleasant diversion, and at least the layout may be useful. <center> ~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Homepage</a>~~~ </center></p>
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Please read my fan fiction novel THE HOBBITS. Wanna hear me read Tolkien? Gilthalion's Grand Adventures! |
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01-23-2001, 01:36 PM
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 445</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: a few additions and new layout Ahhh glad to see the fan-fic didn't die away. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> The enjoyment, I'm good at. I'd be happy to help out with polishing language<hr></blockquote> AFAIU it's not to be fan-fic, but actual usage of JRRT's own words with no additional material (a re-editing if you like). Please participate at any stage you feel comfortable though. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> I postulate the birth of Eldarion in these days<hr></blockquote> Ah yes. I had almost forgotten about that. I remember we had an interesting little chat concerning that. <img src=wink.gif ALT=" "> I suggest Lindil to inspect the layout, since he seems to have the organization situation in mind for the project. Many thanks for the input. </p> |
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01-23-2001, 01:55 PM
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#29 |
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Deadnight Chanter
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,244
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 426 OF THE SUN AND THE MOON AND THE HIDING OF VALINOR is it to be given as 2 different accounts (one after another): 1 as known by loremasters (round earth theory) 2 common opinion (flower and fruit) or maybe it may be medled paragrah by paragraph? With some entries like as men afterwards believed and as was known by loremasters etc? A story must be told or there'll be no story, yet it is the untold stories that are most moving
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! Last edited by HerenIstarion; 02-08-2005 at 03:52 PM. Reason: sweeping party |
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01-23-2001, 05:56 PM
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#30 |
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Shadow of Malice
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: right behind you
Posts: 843
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 317</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: a few additions and new layout I wonder the same thing now that you bring it up. </p> |
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01-23-2001, 07:04 PM
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#31 |
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,680
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 322</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Sun and moon Our current working procedure [hashed out and agreed to -I thought by the 4 of us in Myth's transformed yea or nay] is that we will edit an old style draft ,and saulotus will be responsible for a new style draft of any of the chapters we do [that have any MTdivergencies]. Thus effectively leaving the question of MT or no MT aside for now. So again in brief we are hoping to establish a few working drafts which we can then dangle around at some of the language boards and such and see if we can generate a much larger forum of folks to decide these things Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 1/24/01 3:13:20 am
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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01-23-2001, 07:37 PM
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#32 |
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Essence of Darkness
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Evermore
Posts: 1,420
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Essence of Darkness
Posts: 691</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Coming of Elves Sun and moon: add the bruising of the flower and the splitting of the fruit. BoLT 1 Coming of Elves: add the 'interview' that Manwe gave Finwe, Ingwe and Elwe. BoLT 1 Perhaps, Lindil, a new thread for each chapter would be a good idea? Then someone can write up the new chapter when everything is settled, before proceeding to the next? (I'm going to try and take an active part over here <img src=smile.gif ALT="  "> ) Gwaihir the Windlord  http://www.barrowdowns.comthe barrow-downs</A><FONT size="2.5">'Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor, for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever, and the Dark Tower is thrown down.' </p> |
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01-23-2001, 07:40 PM
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#33 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 448</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Coming of Elves I think the seperate thread per chapter was proposed somewhere here, and is probably the best way to go. And welcome aboard Gwaihir. Want a chapter? <img src=wink.gif ALT=" "> Me... I'm thinking of taking the one that no-one else wants (aka whatever's left over). </p> |
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01-23-2001, 08:27 PM
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#34 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 346
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 449</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Sun and moon <blockquote>Quote:<hr> So again in brief we are hoping to establish a few working drafts which we can then dangle around at some of the language boards and such and see if we can generate a much larger forum of folks t decide these things<hr></blockquote> Lindil; I submit the following idea: Perhaps a presentation of the re-edited Epilogue That I have already done would serve as an introduction as to the style and end-result draft that you are speaking of to the group(s) you are mentioning. At minimum it would show the intent of the project, while showing that new material is not to be incorporated. Agreed, it is a fairly straightforward example, but it is one that is finished and has little in the way of alternative presentations possible; and is in theory, a fair general representation idea of the project as a whole (a re-editing). On the bonus side; the fact that you don't agree with all the material included may make it an even better representation piece for analysis </p> |
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01-24-2001, 01:53 AM
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#35 |
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,680
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">linidl
Posts: 329</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> new blood greetings gwaihir! as I stated somewhere , I will be absent on wed and fri. [prob from here on out- except for a bit of editing and viewing] and as it is already wed. I should be gone, so I can't throw very much of my 2 cents in till thur. I would however suggest a peep at the " new folks on board ..." thread at the BD announcement forum [hopefully to be moved here soon]. I suggest we hash out new idea's [about general procedure's or non-chapter specific idea's] there till they are ratified. Most def. each chapter [ or block of writing] should have it's own thread. DoV [unlocked and locked version] being , I hope the prototypes , the question is how many such threads are we going to have simultaneously? We currently have a working agreement to do 3 drafts and then evaluate.I think it makes sense for the now 5 of us to do DoV then regroup. I am a little concerned about shifting gears before we have gotten out of the starting gate, so I would vote for staying w/ DoV at least before other projects get posted. Mithadan is/was rightly concerned about the chaotic impression [and to a degree reality] the threads wee creating. I am hoping my lock up's don't make it look like a hyper controllled enviroment though.!! Gwaihir-I like the Sun and Moon idea's , I havn't read it in a while -but hope to tomorrow. Gilthalion- I hope too check out that page/story of yours soon,I am always fascinated by early 4th age FF. Let me know if I have locked something better left open, or missed some thing. Only delete's seem to be permanent. lindil </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 1/24/01 1:04:54 pm
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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01-24-2001, 07:34 PM
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#36 |
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Essence of Darkness
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Evermore
Posts: 1,420
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Essence of Darkness
Posts: 698</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: new blood thanks, S. If you gave me a choice, I'd take The Tale of the Sun and Moon; but anything will suit me fine. I do think that the threda per chapter arrangement is the surest way to go (and the one that will get us somewhere). Why not start at once? Gwaihir the Windlord http://www.barrowdowns.comthe barrow-downs</A><FONT size="2.5">'Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor, for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever, and the Dark Tower is thrown down.' </p> |
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01-25-2001, 04:12 AM
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#37 |
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">linidl
Posts: 332</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Sun and Moon/Heren Istarion OF THE SUN ANDTHE MOON AND THE HIDING OF VALINOR Heren Istarion: " is it to be given as 2 different accounts (one after another): 1 as known by loremasters (round earth theory) 2 common opinion (flower and fruit) or maybe it may be medled paragrah by paragraph? with some entries like "as men afterwords beleived" "as was known by loremasters" etc? " apologies Heren , I did not catch that this was a question on the first read . I read it as a proposal. So far we have been limiting ourselves to using JRRT text only [w/ the possible exception to 77 material that might be CRRT] w/ out linking phrases, as handy as they would be especially w/ a MT version . There is some relevant discussion in the 'Literary devices and such ' thread. We came to the conclusion at the time [it is not in stone] that linking phrases -put us into the fan-fiction realm. Not that this is evil or anything ,just that the agreed goal was to use text and text like drafts that were capable of being used as is. I think that we are looking at the old world conception here, or 2 different drafts[ 1 old world and 1MT] . but I propose we explore this more fully after DoV . the original goal was to have a team effort on the old cosmology and Saulotus was going to be in charge of the MT version - barring his return we will have to regroup and see what we want todo re: MT . Heren , do I take it you are on w/ the project , or are contemplating such? Hoping that is the case, lindil </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 1/25/01 5:18:22 am
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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02-02-2001, 01:52 AM
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#38 |
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,680
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 365</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Outline-Proposal update A Few Notes. +++This outline does not as yet reflect the group consensus on all points [or on very many] it is primarily the opinions of lindil who loves lists and such. +++ I have endeavored to include such decisions as the group has made [esp. in following the X versions of chapters and subchapters for the Early Silmarillion. +++Even where not specifically mentioned it is assumed that All relevant Annals abd versions of the Quenta Silmarillion of IV,V,X, and XI will be consulted. +++I have begun [but not completed using the abbreviations used in the thread of the same name-so check there for resolution to any obscurities. ++++ [chapters listed from 1977 Silmarillion { aka. "77}" are brackeeted]"and in time the 77 chapters will be replaced by an entirely new system based on the final revisions of Morgoth's Ring and War of the Jewels. ++++ all of the chapters not listed would still need to be compared w/ the many versions in the History series. ++++ Below however I list the major texts [or parts ] which I think[at this point at least] can [ or should] be inserted in whole or part into the respective chapters. ++++This is by no means an exhaustive listing ,just a framework to hang further ideas on -or take them off. I am sure there are alot of things I havn't caught yet so... Please feel free to monkey around w/ it and put up a new one. ++++ This not an outline that takes the more radical far reaching ideas of Myth's transformed into account . The thread of that name covers some issues , Perhaps an outline similar to this w/explanations of the changes involved in a MT versionof each chapter will appear at some point in the future. so here isLindil's 'OLD STYLE' SILMARILLION outline as it stands now: ================================ AINULINDALE/VALAQUNTA -not yet outlined ----------- QUENTA SILMARILLION ****** 1 Of VALINOR AND THE TWO TREES /[1]OF THE BEGINING DAYS 2 OF AULE AND YAVANNA 3 OF THE COMING OF THE ELVES .. add parts of 'Quendi andEldar'[vol 11] 4 OF THINGOL AND MELIAN 5 OF ELDAMAR [ELDANOR ?] AND THE PRINCES OFTHE ELDALIE 6 {OF THE SILMARILS}THE DARKENING OF VALINOR [the subchapter division is from X] + FINWE AND MIRIEL [w/possible selections from Laws&Customs...' HoME X] +OF FEANOR AND THE UNCHAINING OF MELKOR                                 + OF THE SILMARILS AND THE UNREST OF THE NOLDOR add from'Shibboleth of Feanor' ?[HoME 12] + OF THE DARKENING OF VALINOR add from [HoME 1] of the festival of valinor +OF THE RAPE OF THE SILMARILLS +OF THE THIEVES ' QUARREL                                 7 OF THE FLIGHT OF THE NOLDOR add from'Shibboleth of Feanor'[HoMEXII] 8 OF THE SUN ANDTHE MOON AND THE HIDING OF VALINOR 9 OF MEN 10 OF THE SIEGE OF ANGBAND 11 OF BELERIAND AND IT'S REALMS /[XV] OF THE NOLDOR IN BELERIAND add from 'Shibboleth of Feanor' ?[HoME 12] and Galadriel& Caeleborn 12 OF TURGON AND THE BUILDING OF GONDOLIN 13 CONCERNING THE DWARVES add from ' On Dwarves and Men' [HoME 12] 14 OF THE COMING OF MENINTO THE WEST add from' the Druedain'[Unfinished Tales] and Finrod and Andreth{HoME10} and On Dwarves and Men [HoME 12] 15 OF THE RUIN OF BELERIAND AND THE FALL OF FINGOLFIN 16 ?- BEREN AND LUTHIEN add from Lays [HoME3] [16] OF MAEGLIN add from 'maeglin' in HoMEXI [2O] OF THE FIFTH BATTLE:NIRNAETH ARNOEDIAD [21] OF TURIN TURAMBAR add the 'Narn I Chin Hurin' [U T} and 'Wanderings of Hurin' [HoME 11] and from III [22] OF THE RUIN OF DORIATH add from II,IV,V [and later sketches of Hurin?] [23] OF TOUR AND THE FALL OF GONDOLIN         add of 'Of Tour and his coming to Gondolin [Unfinished Tales ]and         details of the battle of the city fromHoME 2 [24] OF THE VOYAGE OF EARENDILAND THE WAR OF WRATH                                                 ---------------------------------- Appendices to the Silmarillion [not yet in order] * LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR *FINROD AND AND ANDRETH [ATHRABETH] *QUENDI AND ELDAR w/ the Osanwe - Kenta /[?]LHAMMAS *TALE OF YEARS/ANNALS OF THE 1ST AGE *ETYMOLOGIES [revised]/ ELVISH DICTIONARY                                                         ================================== I have incorporated an edited bit of a note from Durelen that goes into the idea of the reworking of the Akallabeth , and a history of the 2nd and 3rd ages. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> '" The second book should [be] everything that occurred during the Second Age in ME(insert The Druedain here) take most of the chapters from UT."<hr></blockquote> ================================== Comments on the outline, possible revisions and omissions from the 'additions ' are of course most welcome. Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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02-21-2001, 12:40 PM
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#39 |
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,680
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 418</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> outline 4.0 A Few preliminary Notes. +++This outline does not as yet reflect the group consensus on all points [or on very many] it is primarily the opinions of lindil who loves lists and such. +++ I have endeavored to include such decisions as the group has made [esp. in following the X versions of chapters and subchapters for the Early Silmarillion. +++Even where not specifically mentioned it is assumed that All relevant Annals abd versions of the Quenta Silmarillion of IV,V,X, and XI will be consulted. +++I have begun [but not completed using the abbreviations used in the thread of the same name-so check there for resolution to any obscurities. ++++ [chapters listed from 1977 Silmarillion { aka. "77}" are brackeeted]"and in time the 77 chapters will be replaced by an entirely new system based on the final revisions of Morgoth's Ring and War of the Jewels. ++++ all of the chapters not listed would still need to be compared w/ the many versions in the History series. ++++ Below however I list the major texts [or parts ] which I think[at this point at least] can [ or should] be inserted in whole or part into the respective chapters. ++++This is by no means an exhaustive listing ,just a framework to hang further ideas on -or take them off. I am sure there are alot of things I havn't caught yet so... Please feel free to monkey around w/ it and put up a new one. ++++ This not an outline that takes the more radical far reaching ideas of Myth's transformed into account . The thread of that name covers some issues , Perhaps an outline similar to this w/explanations of the changes involved in a MT versionof each chapter will appear at some point in the future. so here isLindil's 'OLD STYLE' SILMARILLION outline as it stands now: ================================ TRANSLATIONS FROM THE ELVISH                                 AINULINDALE/VALAQUNTA - mostly from Morgoth's Ring -omitting MT revisions ----------- QUENTA SILMARILLION ****** 1 Of VALINOR AND THE TWO TREES /[1]OF THE BEGINING DAYS 2 OF AULE AND YAVANNA 3 OF THE COMING OF THE ELVES .. add parts of 'Quendi andEldar'[vol 11] 4 OF THINGOL AND MELIAN 5 OF ELDAMAR [ELDANOR ?] AND THE PRINCES OFTHE ELDALIE 6 {OF THE SILMARILS}THE DARKENING OF VALINOR [the subchapter division is from X] + FINWE AND MIRIEL [w/possible selections from Laws&Customs...' HoME X] +OF FEANOR AND THE UNCHAINING OF MELKOR + OF THE SILMARILS AND THE UNREST OF THE NOLDOR add from'Shibboleth of Feanor' ?[HoME 12] + OF THE DARKENING OF VALINOR add from [HoME 1] of the festival of valinor +OF THE RAPE OF THE SILMARILLS +OF THE THIEVES ' QUARREL 7 OF THE FLIGHT OF THE NOLDOR add from'Shibboleth of Feanor'[HoMEXII] 8 OF THE SUN ANDTHE MOON AND THE HIDING OF VALINOR                                                 [ additions from Lost tales I ?] 9 OF MEN 10 OF THE SIEGE OF ANGBAND 11 OF BELERIAND AND IT'S REALMS /[XV] OF THE NOLDOR IN BELERIAND add from 'Shibboleth of Feanor' ?[HoME 12] and Galadriel& Caeleborn 12 OF TURGON AND THE BUILDING OF GONDOLIN 13 CONCERNING THE DWARVES add from ' On Dwarves and Men' [HoME 12] 14 OF THE COMING OF MENINTO THE WEST add from' the Druedain'[Unfinished Tales] and Finrod and Andreth{HoME10} and On Dwarves and Men [HoME 12] 15 OF THE RUIN OF BELERIAND AND THE FALL OF FINGOLFIN 16 ?- BEREN AND LUTHIEN add from Lays [HoME3] [16] OF MAEGLIN add from 'maeglin' in HoMEXI [2O] OF THE FIFTH BATTLE:NIRNAETH ARNOEDIAD [21] OF TURIN TURAMBAR add the 'Narn I Chin Hurin' [U T} and 'Wanderings of Hurin' [HoME 11] and from III [22] OF THE RUIN OF DORIATH add from II,IV,V [and later sketches of Hurin?] [23] OF TOUR AND THE FALL OF GONDOLIN add of 'Of Tour and his coming to Gondolin [Unfinished Tales ]and details of the battle of the city fromHoME 2 [24] OF THE VOYAGE OF EARENDILAND THE WAR OF WRATH ---------------------------------- Appendices to the Silmarillion [not yet in order] * LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR *FINROD AND AND ANDRETH [ATHRABETH] *QUENDI AND ELDAR w/ the Osanwe - Kenta /[?]LHAMMAS *TALE OF YEARS/ANNALS OF THE 1ST AGE [?] *ETYMOLOGIES [revised]/ ELVISH DICTIONARY Quenya and Sindarin ================================== I have incorporated an edited bit of a note from Durelen that goes into the idea of the reworking of the Akallabeth , and a history of the 2nd and 3rd ages. Quote: '" The second book should [be] everything that occurred during the Second Age in ME(insert The Druedain here) take most of the chapters from UT." ================================== Comments on the outline, possible revisions and omissions from the 'additions ' are of course most welcome. Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns<u> Silmarillion canon , theories and discussion Forum </u> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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02-21-2001, 10:39 PM
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#40 |
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Shadow of Malice
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: right behind you
Posts: 843
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
Posts: 598</TD><TD><img src=http://www.fingolfin.com/JRRT.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: outline 4.0 Are we not going with a round-earth theory? It seems by your new, revised, yet not really revised, not quite outline, that we aren't. Or is this a piece that just hasn't been added yet? It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p> |
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Linear Mode
