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#1 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 99
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Morgot's servants more terrifying than Sauron's?
Would you say the balrogs, firedrakes, dragons, vampires and demon spirits Morgoth had were more terrifying than Sauron's nazgul?
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#2 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
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I would say absolutely without a shadow of a doubt.
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#3 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,035
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I see what you did there.
![]() I would put a caveat on that by saying that maybe the Nazgûl were especially terrifying to Men. It was established that Legolas, and Elves in general, didn't display much fear of the Ringwraiths. Glorfindel charged the Witch-king himself and ran him out of the North. Dwarves? Who knows, although they were immune from becoming Wraiths. The Nazgûl were 'living ghosts', and their horrible, unique status in Middle-earth was reflected in the hopeless wails they sounded, as well as the feel of dread that surrounded them. That fear and hopelessness, as 'stretched' extensions of Sauron's will that were prevented from release as long as Sauron endured, could have called to other Men's fea and caused them a terror beyond that endured by other races.
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#4 |
Dead Serious
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I am going to disagree with the letter of Master Kuruharan's reply--but perhaps in doing so, I shall be agreeing with him in spirit.
I'll start by acknowledging that there's a wide range amongst the servants of Morgoth listed--a Balrog is an incarnate Maiar whereas we know almost nothing about a vampire, but it seems reasonable to say they are not comparable in might. To compare all these disparate beings to the servants of Sauron is like comparing apples and the entire produce department. That said, it is a worthwhile point, I think, to note that the Nazgûl really are the only creations of Sauron, whereas Morgoth produced many sorts of servants. This points to the ultimate disparity between them, and it is this disparity of potency that I think underlies Kuruharan's firm assertion that there is no context here. My personal thought, however, is that the Nazgûl might actually have been as terrifying as the creatures of Morgoth, because unlike the creatures of Morgoth, terror is their primary power. This got touched on in a recent argument here (the resurrection of the Female Nazgûl? question), where Huinesoron argues that martial prowess is not the chief purpose of the Nazgûl, making the point we do not generally see them take the field in battle. This argument (not necessarily the conclusion that there ARE female Nazgûl) makes sense to me, and I think it applies here: FEAR is the main overt power of the Nazgûl. Think of Sauron's use of them during the Siege of Minas Tirith: to overwhelm the city's morale by their presence. In other words, I think that the terror of the Nazgûl might well match that of something like a Balrog, because where for the Balrog terror is a side-effect of its dread form and demonic might, terror is the primary effect of a Nazgûl. This shows the lesser stature of their creator. Morgoth doesn't focus on creating something that will wreak havoc on emotions: he creates something that will wreak havoc on matter--the terror comes from knowing and sensing that might. Sauron, being substantially weaker, DOES focus on terrorizing emotions. (Of course, this entire post is avoiding the subject of whether Morgoth--or Sauron--can actually create anything. Suffice it to say that where I use the word "create" or imply something like it, I am using it most imprecisely.) EDIT: Crossposted with Inziladun.
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Last edited by Formendacil; 01-01-2018 at 03:38 PM. Reason: Indicate cross-posting. |
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#5 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 99
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Vampires, Huor and Hurin vs Nazgul
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In terms of the nazgul fear factor, I think Huor and Hurin, perhaps the mightiest of men of all time wouldn't **** in their pants and flee if faced with the wraiths. If Aragorn and Earnul can fight them, so can they. They faced far worse foes during the first age. Last edited by Victariongreyjoy; 01-01-2018 at 06:05 PM. |
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#6 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,857
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#7 | |
Dead Serious
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#8 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,359
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A Nazgul might focus his power (e.g. the case with Eowyn and Merry), but can also spread fear over an entire army.
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#9 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,035
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That makes sense, as the descendants of Glaurung were offspring, and each generation would have diluted the original essence somewhat. What I've wondered is this: Glauring, when he applies his power, can compel even the strong-willed, like Túrin and Nienor, to obey his commands. Yet Morgoth was unable to force the location of Gondolin out of Húrin. Maybe he should have let Glaurung have a go? But imagine the shame if Glaurung pwned Morgoth that way. ![]()
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#10 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,506
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Morgoth would be dragon the depths of despair.
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#11 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,307
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Not exactly. Glaurung could paralyze Turin, and cozen him, but there's no indication that he could force him actively to do or say anything. Instead Glaurung relied on deceit (and a diabolical knowledge of his victim's psyche). Nienor he simply mind-wiped. Both are very different from forcing them to answer questions. Similarly Morgoth could poison Hurin's mind to the point that he did the Dark Lord's will unwittingly, but he certainly wasn't controlling him.
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#12 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,857
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hS |
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#13 | |
Wight
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 118
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Also on the original question I would say absolutely-Morgoth had every pawn and servant Sauron had and more except for the Nazgul really. |
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#14 | |||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,035
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Perhaps Aulë might have had a bit of prescience when fashioning his children?
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#15 |
Wight
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 118
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Okay had forgotten that line. Seems Aule made the dwarves extraordinarily sturdy and strong willed.
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