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#1 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Transmission theory: what the heck was Tolkien thinking?
The letter mentioned in a recent discussion led me to realize something very odd. In it, Tolkien (or his amanuensis) mentioned that the Silmarillion would lay out the history of the earlier Ages "as passed down by the Numenoreans." Well, this is all well and good; it's hardly a secret that Tolkien had resolved by this time that the only way to square his cosmology with "true science," which the Valar and thus the Noldor certainly would have known, would be to pass off his legendarium as garbled Mannish traditions.
But wait- that letter was written in 1965, at the same time the Revised Edition of the LR was being prepared. And what did T do in that revision? Why, he doubled down on the Bilbo-transmission theory, making it more explicit than the 1st Ed. had been that the Silmarillion was Mr Baggins' "Translations From the Elvish"- seemingly a complete contradiction of the Numenorean-legend theory. Who can read this riddle? (Incidentally, this would not be the first time Tolkien entertained two contradictory ideas simultaneously- for a while in the writing of Book V, he seemingly had Frodo look out at the moon over the Forbidden Pool at the same time as Pippin aboard Shadowfax *and* Pippin on the battlements of Minas Tirith!)
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#2 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Still, he was right there in Rivendell for the entire latter part of his life on Middle earth with, presumably, plenty of elvish records right there to hand...
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#3 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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I suppose that if we had to come up with a fan-ficcy ret-con, we could run with the idea of "Arnor library preserved in Rivendell" and go further by positing that the Elves don't write "history" the way Men and Hobbits conceive it, being as they are immortals with perfect memory recall.* Elvish writings about their past would lean towards poems giving abstracted impressions of tales already well-known to the audience, rather like Bilbo's own Lay of Earendil.
Therefore Bilbo would instead have turned to the recognizably "historical" works written by the Dunedain-- which would still have to be "Translations From the Elvish" since Arnor's scholars presumably wrote in Sindarin. Still, one would have to assume Bilbo never let Elrond or Glorfindel proofread it! -------------------- *The only problem with that is the in-universe attribution of the Annals to Rumil and Pengolodh. Of course, that authorship would have to disappear under the "Numenorean transmission" theory anyway.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#4 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
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What about.
Rumil wrote the Ainulindalë. -->Pengolodh rewrote it based in Rumil and added things.-->Pengolodh wrote Valaquenta, Quenta Silmarillion, etc. This could have been in Gondolin, in the Second Age or in Eressëa after his return. The Elves visited Númenor--> made transmission of the "tales".--> Men passing many years (Sauron in Númenor), filter the stories.--> The wrote or oral transmission passed to Arnor, preserved in Imladris. Elrond never talked with any Valar. Glorfindel only to help. ![]() ![]() Bilbo translate-->Findegil's copy of the Thain Book-->Tolkien translate--> We read. Greetings. PS: Hello my colleagues of TFTE. Here I am. Very, very busy, years older, without time to work, but with the project in mind..... in the future? |
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#5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I always assumed that this would be the solution. It works perfectly, doesn't it? Elrond kept other artefacts of Númenor in Rivendell, and "Translations from the Elvish" doesn't necessarily mean "Translations of works written by Elves", just "Translations of works written in an Elvish language", which the Númenórean literature in Arnor presumably would have been.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
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#6 |
Dead Serious
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Aragorn *did* say that Bilbo's work on First Age topics was cheeky.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#7 | ||||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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And by translating certain works as accurately as possible, various points of view could be represented too. Any more purely Western Elvish texts or oral traditions would (or could), for example, contradict certain ideas found in more Mannish texts, and even some of the Numenorean accounts could contain references to what the "wise of Numenor" said about some matter or idea, even if only a scribble in a margin somewhere. In the older conception with Elfwine, Tolkien has Elfwine note that the Tale of Hurin's children was written by a man, but in the Sindarin tongue; and Elfwine writes... Quote:
And in my opinion we have to give JRRT some room here, as (very generally speaking), he hadn't even finished the tales themselves, much less their internal histories down through Numenor and east over Sea. Last edited by Galin; 11-17-2016 at 09:00 AM. |
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#8 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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#9 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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For all we know, Bilbo knew, either of his own accord or from his conversations with the Elves, that they were poeticised/mythologised versions of what "really" happened, but didn't care, because that wasn't why he was interested in them. I actually find this reflective of the interesting dichotomy that I feel exists between the more "satisfactorily realistic" reformed creation story, in which the Sun exists before the Trees, and the more "poetically pleasing" earlier one in which the Trees exist before the Sun. Perhaps both can be appreciated for different reasons. I suppose the question is: did Professor Tolkien give up on the "true" account of creation and very early history because it would have been too hard or because the reformed version lacked the beauty of the original? Christopher Tolkien wonders if "the old structure was too comprehensive, too interlocked in all its parts, indeed its roots too deep, to withstand such a devastating surgery", but admits that he has "no evidence on the question one way or the other". I must admit that a more "scientifically minded" side of me has always struggled a bit with imagining a period of history in which the Earth was thriving with creatures (including Elves) and yet the Sun didn't exist and the world was perpetual starlit night-time. On the other hand, the Trees are such a powerful image, and I feel that they lose some of that if the Sun existed first. I feel the same way about the round Earth vs the flat Earth. The Ban of the Valar is somehow less striking when it feels like they also needed to tell the Númenóreans that they weren't allowed to just sail up the other side either.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
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#10 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Well put Zigur. And my theory is as follows...
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I think Tolkien gave up on the Myths Transformed texts in the sense that he did not need a new Quenta Silmarillion to replace the older one. The beauty of the old concepts could be retained, and other texts or accounts, or even marginal notes by the Wise, could serve to hint at the "truer" nature of things. Texts like the Awakening of the Quendi, for example, being more purely Elvish in authorship, could reveal (as it does) that though the Elves awoke under the stars, they awoke at night, and the Sun already existed before they awoke... to contrast with the Mannish account where Men awaken with the Sun, and the Two Trees get mixed into their version. I have posted before that I think JRRT "ratified" the Mannish version of the fall of Numenor, called The Drowning of Anadune (DA), which includes that the Western Elves taught that the world is round before the fall of Numenor. The Drowning of Anadune (Mannish tradition) is, I think, meant to stand next to Akallabeth (mixed tradition) in the legendarium as a whole, although I don't think a second version of Quenta Silmarillion was in the works, or necessary. In my opinion the Myths Transformed texts or notes began as a path to replacement, but whether they were abandoned due to being too invasive, or due to losing beautiful or powerful ideas (or both reasons combined), or some other reason, I think Tolkien ultimately decided (or realized) that he had found the solution anyway -- re-characterizing Quenta Silmarillion as largely Mannish. Add the Numenorean transmission, which garbles things on their long path to Elrond's vaults, some of which then is translated faithfully, Elvish into Westron, by, of all people, a Hobbit from the Shire... though it seems fitting enough given the role of certain hobbits in the fall of Sauron. The original transmission also explained how we got the legends into Modern English through Elfwine's Old English (adding Tolkien-as-translator's expertise in Old English). The later idea with Bilbo gets us to Westron, although there are some ways that could explain how we got from Westron to Modern English as well. Last edited by Galin; 11-18-2016 at 10:11 AM. |
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#11 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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I don't know if it was quite the case that Tolkien had overtly rejected the ideas he was considering in the Myths Transformed texts, so much as he was ambivalent. He had already, in the late 40s, gone to a round world model and back; and, like us, his modern Science Mind was aware that the Earth is round and orbits a Sun that is at least as old, but his Literature Mind was also aware that his cosmological myth is utterly beautiful if utterly "unscientific."
The whole idea would of course be hard to sustain if followed through completely: the Science Mind knows that the Evening Star is an uninhabitable earth-sized planet millions of miles away, not a guy in a boat with shiny jewel, but it ain't nearly as good a myth. Besides, how "scientific" is a world with dragons, invisibility rings and giant glowing trees?
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#12 |
Wight
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We don´t know what Tolkien could have devised as the "Real transmission theory", but with the data we have the transmission posted by me above is the more plausible theory with its weaks, in my opinion.
In other way, a text like the Awakening of the Quendi never was though, in my opinion again, as a "real history tale" within the Mythology. It was said that it was "Actually written (in style and simple notions) to be a surviving elvish fairy-tale or child's tale, mingled with counting-lore" . Of course this is indepently of the fact that Elves knew the "Truth" and Men don't. Greetings |
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#13 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Well, yes, IF one assumes that Tolkien was interested in synthesizing two (or three) alternate theories, rather than just picking one and chucking the rest.
I find it interesting that well after both the Myths Transformed essays and the publication of the LR, he was still writing pieces in which Pengolodh was relating lore to Aelfwine- the old Lost Tales-era transmission theory which can't be shoehorned into either of the others without a hydraulic jack! So at various times he had 4 (or 3-1/2) theories, as follows: 1) 5th century Angle Eriol discovers the Lonely Isle (the future Great Britain) and learns the Elves' history, and witnesses its end. Recorded in "Golden Book of Tavrobel," presumably somehow preserved at Warwick. Essentially "true." 1a) 10th century Anglo-Saxon Aelfwine discovers the Lonely Isle (not Britain) and learns the Elves' history from (Rumil and) Pengolodh. Recorded in Old English, which Tolkien the OE scholar "discovered" and "translated." Essentially "true." 2) Bilbo Baggins translates history from writings in Quenya/Sindarin kept at Rivendell, records them in the mutivolume Red Book, copied in the "Thain's Book" in Gondor, ultimately "discovered" and "translated" by Tolkien the"Westron scholar" along with the earlier parts of the Red Book. Source materials in Elrond's library, and recollections of the Wise, essentially "true." 3) Numenoreans/Dunedain write down "history" which at least in its earlier parts is mingled with Mannish myths and garbles the actual facts as known to the Eldar. Transmission uncertain, but presumably similar to (2). Considerable parts not "true." There are some real difficulties trying to reconcile any of these, like "solving" a jigsaw puzzle by hammering together pieces that don't actually fit with each other.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#14 | ||||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Tolkien not only doesn't begin the text with an obvious statement about the sun already existing, but the source itself is arguably questionable as a "historical" source -- but then again, what does the Sun existing before the Elves awaken have to do with "counting lore", or the way in which the First Elves find each other? "It seems my father had resolved (at least for the purposes of this fairy tale) the problem of the name "Star-folk" of the Elves in a beautifully simple way: the first Elves awoke in the late night of unclouded stars, and the stars were their earliest memory." Christopher Tolkien, War of the Jewels "At least for the purposes of the fairy tale" is noted, but the information is still there for any reader to find and wonder about, especially given the new characterization of Quenta Silmarillion, along with (as I believe) another example like DA, which challenges the Mannish idea of the shape of the World. Within this Elvish text we read that the Quendi awoke in the early twilight before dawn, for example, which would not be a controversial description from the Western Elvish perspective, and offers a nice pathway for a variant interpretation regarding the Sun. Quote:
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Between the first and second editions, in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, it seems we can have lore reaching Rivendell from the South, and we have the Numenorean tale of Turin and Mim. And in the second edition, Tolkien adds references to suggest that Bilbo's translations from the Elvish (language) include First Age material. Compare to the First Edition, Appendix A: Quote:
I'm still not sure what the real difficulties are regarding reconciling Bilbo with the Numenorean transmission. Last edited by Galin; 11-21-2016 at 05:00 PM. |
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#15 | |
Wight
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Of course that Tolkien wanted (at least for some years) to change the cosmological myth he developed his whole life. But he couldn't (or at the end wanted). We can assume that the real truth only is known by the Eldar and rediscovered by Men in the Modern Scientific Era. Greetings |
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#16 | ||
Loremaster of Annúminas
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The problem with trying to merge the "Numenorean" and "Bilbo" theories is simply this: if we want to postulate Bilbo as the vector for garbled Mannish traditions, it's very difficult to imagine that he would not have been told, or already know, that they were bullsh!t: by Elrond, by Glorfindel, by Gandalf, by who knows who else resident in or visiting Rivendell, house of loremasters.
After all, Glorfindel had walked across the Helcaraxe, at least according to the only version of the mythos we have; certainly he would have been in a position to tell Bilbo whether the world was round or flat in the Elder Days! Quote:
But I think we can discount any notion of Gondorian texts influencing Bilbo's work, since Pippin's research trips to Minas Tirith took place after Bilbo had taken ship.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 11-25-2016 at 12:09 PM. |
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#17 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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If someone handed you an ancient Greek document to translate, for example, and you knew (or were told) that five things in it were factually inaccurate, would you alter these references? That's very arguably not your job, and likewise not Bilbo's. And even then, it's not like the Hobbit need leave out evidences of the Elvish perspective if the fuller legendarium includes (as I think it would) accurately translated texts that are more Elvish in nature -- more accurately describing the world from a Western Elvish perspective even in the Mannish The Drowning of Anadune, again in which the Western Elves teach the Numenoreans that the world is round (before the fall). I don't see why you find this problematic. Granted the following example isn't perfect for obvious reasons, but art restoration isn't about correcting the background of the Mona Lisa, for instance, simply because it might be problematic in some (arguable) way. And there's nothing in print (that I recall) that blocks a pathway to keeping Bilbo, despite the re-characterization of the Silmarilliom -- which again, allows those who are minded to find the "old" cosmology problematic (if beautiful), a path to accept it as art if not utter truth in all respects. Quote:
"... re-handlings of Southern matter, though this may have reached Bilbo by way of Rivendell. No 14 also depends on the lore of Rivendell, Elvish and Numenorean, concerning the Heroic days at the end of the First Age; it seems to contain echoes of the Numenorean tale of Turin and Mim the Dwarf." Quote:
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And as said, Dirhaval is a Man (keeping in mind the earlier MT statement) "... but already far back -- from the first association of the Dunedain with the Eldar in Beleriand -- blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas." And then we can have his work be rendered into prose by other hands and minds in Numenor, then on to Middle-earth, ultimately to Bilbo. Last edited by Galin; 11-26-2016 at 02:00 PM. |
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#18 | |
Wight
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We know that the world was not, to say, a piece of one god or derived from the semen of another one, even that one god create the world in six days and the seventh rested. But we keep on reading these myths "Translated": Greeks, Nordic, Egyptian, Jude-Christian etc, because they are beautiful. But we are moving in the speculation. And as I say before in other parts of this forum we can complicate our thoughts as far as we want. It could be easier. Perhaps Glorfindel didn't want to talk about the First Age. Perhaps even Bilbo never asked Elrond about the creation. He only was interested in dramatic, epic tales. Perhaps.... Greetings |
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#19 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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In relation to Galin's argument, I feel like the untrue nature of the Númenórean legends being a problem for Bilbo would be like a modern person who was interested in Ancient Greek not wanting to work on Hesiod's Theogony because it's not a true account of the formation of the world, or perhaps to bring it closer to home an Old Norse enthusiast being uninterested in Völuspá for the same reason.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. Last edited by Zigûr; 11-26-2016 at 09:30 AM. |
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#20 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I begin to think that The Adventures of Tom Bombdil becomes notably important here, as Tolkien chooses to characterize the lore of Rivendell as Elvish and Numenorean, and characterizes a First Age tale as Numenorean.
We can't discount that Bilbo used living sources in Rivendell, as well as written, as this information is then also published a few years later in the Note On The Shire Records. There were other Exiled Noldor in Rivendell besides Glorfindel, but we can use him for examples -- the question is: what kind of help did the living sources provide? I would say why not imagine that Glorfindel is a living source for an Elvish-perspective tale, or an Elvish linguistic document, or details about Gondolin, for example. Again, would it even be Glorfindel's part to correct a Mannish compliation called The Silmarillion, or any of the ancient Numenorean works that have already been sitting in the vaults of Rivendell long before Bilbo Baggins came along? Maybe Glorfindel told Bilbo the "true" tale of Ambarussa for example, in which it is said that: "In the night Feanor, filled with malice, aroused Curufin, and with him and a few of those most close to Feanor in obedience he went to the ships and set them all aflame; and the dark sky was red as with a terrible dawn." Maybe Bilbo asks Glorfindel: is it true that the First Elves awoke before the Sun existed? And for answer Glorfindel says "no"[*] and digs out a document called the Cuivienyarna, which is noted as being "preserved in almost identical form among both the Elves of Aman and the Sindar." Again, represent the Elvish point of view, don't correct the Mannish Silmarillion -- and in any case, if Glorfindel has read this Mannish compilation, he knows that: Quote:
*perhaps Glorfindel would say something like CJRT here,... rather than "No" ![]() As late as 1971 [Letter 325] as I read the following, Tolkien even had the Sindar as possibly contributing some material that might not be quite as informed as that of the Exiles: "But the Legends are manly of "Mannish" origin blended with those of the Sindar (Grey-elves) and others who had never left Middle-earth." (actually the letter reads "Gray-elves" in my copy) Not leaving Middle-earth arguably equates to another level of separation from the teachings of the Valar, in my opinion (despite contact with the Exiles), but again, if even some of the Wise of Numenor have already noted the "truth" about the Sun and Stars, I see little need to alter the Silmarillion proper (that tale itself) to reflect the Elvish perspective in all matters. Edit: Ah, didn't see Zigur's last post before I blathered on. Nice and concise! What Zigur said, then ![]() Last edited by Galin; 11-30-2016 at 10:11 PM. |
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#21 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I stumbled across the following from JRRT (letter 276 to Richard Plotz), to mix into Hammond and Scull's Chronology. But first, I can't recall any reference to Elfwine dating to after the later 1950s early 1960s "phase". The fact that some sort of Elfwine scenario was in the mix even after the first edition Lord of the Rings was published brings up its own questions, but anyway I emphasize the first edition here because Bilbo's translations are said to be some books of lore that he gave to Frodo, while two notable Elder Days references come along in the second, revised edition of the 1960s.
As noted already, in 1962 ATB is published, which reveals that Rivendell holds Elvish and Numenorean Lore, and a Tale of Turin and Mim is referred to as Numenorean. 1965, 25 July Tolkien sends his new text, Note On The shire Records, to Houghton Mifflin Company, for insertion after the Prologue to the revised edition. So now the reader learns that Bilbo's Translations From The Elvish were "almost entirely concerned with the Elder Days". And JRRT ultimately added in Appendix A (revised edition) that the ancient legends of the First Age were Bilbo's chief interest. 1965, 12 September Tolkien replies to Mr. Plotz, in which he mentions the Numenorean Tale The Mariner's Wife, adding: Quote:
I'm wondering if I can get a date (if known), with respect to the month, for the letter that gave rise to this thread? The excerpt being... Quote:
__________ For anyone interested, Tolkien did meet with Mr. Plotz later. 1966, I November Tolkien meets with Richard Plotz, who is quoted at least twice referring to Bilbo's possible involvement with respect to the Silmarillion material (that is, a report by Dick Plotz referring to when he visited Tolkien on 1 November, 1966): Quote:
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I wish we had Tolkien's exact words here, in any event. Last edited by Galin; 11-30-2016 at 10:30 PM. |
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#22 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Hmmmmm- well, it's always possible that Tolkien was, characteristically, vacillating!
------------------------ Actually, I think I'm coming around to the "uncritical translation of old legends" view of Bilbo's work especially in light of T's description of Quenta Silmarillion as a compilation made in Numenor, focused around the Great Tales (all of them about Edain). This is especially appealing in that we know that Bilbo was quite fond of Aragorn and very interested in his lineage. The only (minor) problem there is that "Translations from Numenor" or some such might have been a more accurate title, even though the given one isn't inaccurate (presumably the Numenorean QS was written in Sindarin). I had something of a small epiphany in this regard brought on by analogies made here to classical mythology. We have all read collections of "Greek" mythology-- except that many of those stories and several of the best known in fact come from Ovid, a Roman; further confusing matters is the fact that often these collections, especially the older ones, use the Latin rather than Greek names of deities (even that reflects Roman "garbling;" with the exception of Apollo, the Roman pantheon were native Latin gods who were subsequently syncretized with the Greek and appropriated their legends). -------------- As for the Numenorean Turin- it certainly is the case that various poems get made about the same story, or pieces of the same story--how many poems and tales have been made about Arthur and his knights, including by Tolkien? See also the fight at Finnsburg, known both from its own fragmentary poem and as an episode recited in Beowulf, and the three extant medieval versions of the Sigurd/Siegfried tale. One in-universe example is the poem of Beren and Luthien's meeting sung by Aragorn at Weathertop, which is clearly distinct from the Lay of Leithian.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 12-01-2016 at 10:40 AM. |
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#23 |
Wight
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This has the rather uncomfortable implication that the Silmarillion didn't actually "happen" but was numenorian embellishment.
So I am inclined to view it as Tolkien's quixotic but ultimately pointless effort later in life to have mythos conform with science. If you ask me that isn't necessary and is more damaging to the story than redeeming so I'll say the Silmarillion was an "accurate" description of things that took place. |
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#24 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I think that plenty already in The Silmarillion can still happen (in a sense of reader participation as it concerns what "really" happened), on a round earth and under a pre-existing sun. And there are plenty of magical or fantastic things that remain.
And if folks allow (and enjoy) a flat earth idea to be true, despite that part of the mind can still conjure up "well, that's impossible" without given a choice from the story itself, can't the same folk, side, in a sense, with Mannish legends? Admittedly, an "in story undermining", being part of the reader experience, arguably makes it easier for questions to intrude, and sway the reader to choose a more likely opinion, but within the reader experience, one is still allowing (if the writer does his job well) the fantastic to be true. Then maybe it's about individual measures. What version of Pi's (Life of Pi) story is true? Or which do you prefer? And then again both versions are fiction. Last edited by Galin; 08-20-2017 at 08:58 AM. |
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#25 | |
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