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#1 | |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Ephel Duath
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From doing a search, I find that the standard of Elendil's house consists of seven stars and the White Tree. Also, the chief palantir in Gondor was kept at the Dome of Stars in Osgiliath. One fanfic I've read interprets this as having been a sort of planetarium showing the stars as they appeared from Numenor. Is there any evidence from Tolkien's writings to support this interpretation? Does "seven stars" simply refer to the design of Elendil's banner, or were there any actual star shaped objects carried from Numenor? |
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#2 |
Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox
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I always imagined that the seven stars were on the standard, as well as in "The Sickle of the Valar". It seemed a major constellation (very similar to the Great Dipper, or Usra Major), and I never quite remembered how many stars were in it, so I presumed...
Iarwain
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#3 |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Iarwain, you're right that "seven stars" is used to refer to the sickle of the Valar. I hadn't mentioned that since clearly Elendil didn't bring a constellation with him, unless it was a picture of one on his standard.
Also there were seven stars (plus the star of the house of Fëanor) drawn on the West-Gate of Moria--but probably that's unrelated. I guess the standard seems the likely answer. |
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#4 |
Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox
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They needn't have brought the actual stars with them, knowledge of the constellation would be good enough. I think that the poem refers mainly to Elendil's standard. Perhaps the gems on the standard that Aragorn bore were passed down from Numenor. That would put the Stars into a physical object.
Iarwain [ January 25, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]
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#5 | |
Wight
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Unfinished Tales has a chapter called A Description of The Island of Numenor. This chapter states that the island of Numenor itself is shaped like a five-pointed star (hence the five pointed stars in the emblem of Elendil).
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This page has good information on the Emblem of Elendil. Note: scroll down to sub-headding THE THIRD AGE: ARNOR AND GONDOR Quote from 'Unfinished Tales' Part 2: ch 1
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#6 |
Delver in the Deep
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Iargwath, that heraldry page is FANTASTIC! Thanks very much.
The Seven Stars of Elendil were almost certainly inspired by the Valacirca, the constellation with seven major stars that was set in the north by Varda at the coming of the Elves. I believe it is described explicitly like this in The Silmarillion, probably in Of the Coming of the Elves. Elendil was the leader of the Faithful, and it makes perfect sense that his emblem should pay homage to both the Eldar and the Valar. I don't see anything supporting the fact that the seven stars were the same as the seven stones - why make separate mention like that? Perhaps on another level, aside from bringing the emblem of seven stars, Elendil and co also brought back to Middle-Earth what it stood for - reverence for the Elder Kindred and for the gods of Arda. Similarly, the one white tree might be symbolic of their devotion to Eru. Or it might not!
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#7 | |
Wight
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No worries Doug. Its a favourite page of mine also.
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#8 | ||
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Jan 2003
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One would also wonder why Durin's symbols would contain such distinct reference to Valinor, both in respect of the Trees and The Sickle?
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#9 |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
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The Heraldry page whose link Iargwath gives above says that the upper part of the design on the doors of Moria (stars, crown, hammer and anvil) is Durin's symbol. He was led to found Moria by seeing the stars fo the Valacirca reflected in the lake at the east entrance.
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#10 |
Wight
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7 is a big number in all the free races of M.E.
The 7 stars COULD represent the Durin as he was the eldest of the 7 Dwarf lords. (Was Durin around during the fashioning of the doors?) The 7 Stars were also famous in the Dwarf tongues too were they not? I recall some mention of them being reflected in the Kheled-Zaram for some reason... But the two trees represent the two Hollin trees that stood beside the door, a symbol of the frienship between the Noldor and the dwarves of Moria.
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#11 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Well, you learn a little every day! Thanks [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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#12 | |
Animated Skeleton
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You beat me to it Ultimatejoe but the quote you are thinking about is.
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#13 |
Wight
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Thanks for finding the passage I remembered.
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#14 |
Animated Skeleton
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Hi. I don't know about Durin's emblem but in the RotK index, entry Stars, Tolkien explains that the Seven Stars represented the seven ships (of 9) that carried palantiri. The tree is of course the baby white tree Isildur brought from Numenor.
Ailios
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#15 |
Haunting Spirit
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Sometimes when a lay or a poem is written it's not literal.
The Valacirca or The Great Bear was set in the heavens as a challenge to Melkor and a sign of warning. Perhaps The Seven stars is a warning to Sauron servant of Melkor to bring terror to him of his doom. The Seven Stones being the Palantir were used to keep each region in contact, if some evil should arise, the evil plot would be spoiled.Note only great kings could ever use these. This could be a sign of a Great King The tree is of course the Galathilion, which at one time Sauron had felled, the tree being grown again would bring terror to him. The Tree is a trade Mark of Numenore So this Poem could be Saying (in essence) This is a sign of doom, A Great King will arise, and the Blood of the Numenore will over take your Kingdom. YOUR GOIN' DOWN!! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Just a thought, -(~<~>Yavanna SO in answer to your question, the Stars could be the sign of impending doom. p.s. The Valacirca is set in the Northern sky. Aragorn hails from the North,as a Ranger,and a Numenorean. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Get it? [ January 29, 2003: Message edited by: Yavanna Kementari ]
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#16 |
Wight
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It is highly unlikely that the Sickle of the Gods has ANYTHING to do with Aragorn... by the time he's having his career-revival enough "new" elements had been woven into the history of Arda that the Valar could not have forseen it.
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#17 |
Animated Skeleton
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I saw the notes about the 'stars' being in physical form as the little stones or gems or whatever they were. I also remeber that Arwen Evenstar actually had the Evenstar. It was taht little (white?) gem that she gave Frodo. maybe the seven stars were like these.
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#18 | |
Spirit of Mist
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#19 |
Wight
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The kings only wore a "star" on their brow so 7 cannot apply.
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#20 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Coudln't they be a metaphorical reference ot the seven ships of the Numenoreans, that came 'flying' to M-e?
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#21 |
Animated Skeleton
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In RoTK Tolkien writes in the index, where he explicitly refers to the rhyme, "[the] Seven stars, of Elendil and his captains. ... [They] originally represented to single stars on the banners of each of seven ships (of 9 [three times three]) that bore a palantir; in Gondor the seven stars were set about a white-flowered tree, over which the Kings set a winged crown."
Moreover, he writes that the Seven stars in the emblem of Durin represented the Plough. c.c.
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#22 | |
Wight
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Iargwath, in the heraldry page you linked it is said that they were five-pointed stars, and, even though, I like your explanation that this is because of the shape of the island of Númenor, in the index of RotK it is said that they were six-pointed [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]
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#23 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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His sword was long his lance was keen His shining helm afar was seen The countless stars of heavens field Were mirrored in his silver shield |
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#24 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
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So which is it? Are the stars on the flag of Gondor five- or six-pointed? The five-ray version appears to be from the 50th Anniversary edition, which [urly="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11338&page=2"]this thread[/URL] suggests featured an all-new, non-Tolkien index. So... is this simply a mistake, or is it a reversion to Tolkien's original intent? Is there anyone with a copy of the Readers' Guide who can shed any light on the question? And... are they real objects, or not? The index (either version) says: Seven Stars of Elendil and his captains... originally represented the single stars on the banners of each of seven ships (of 9) that bore a palantir; in Gondor the seven stars were set about a white-flowered tree, over which the Kings set a winged crown They could be jewels worn by Elendil and six of his captains, with the Elendilmir being the primary one; but that would mean the jewels were put in place after the banners on the ships. Or they could be what it says - seven stars on seven banners. But then they're essentially just a stand-in for the Stones, which are already named in the song... I admit I would prefer them to be something that actually existed, but that might just be wistful thinking. hS |
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#25 | |
Animated Skeleton
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Tolkien Companion 2014 and the points on the 7 stars of Elendil
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“In regard to many-pointed stars, in the 1966 Index as first published each of the seven stars of Elendil (see note for p.597) is said to have six points. But in the Allen & Unwin de luxe edition of 1969 this was changed to five points, possibly because the binding art of that book is an adaptation of Tolkien’s dust-jacket design for The Return of the King (see ‘Preliminaries’, above), in which each of the stars has five points.” Page 597 is not p.597 of the Guide, but p.597 of the continuously paginated edition of 2004, reprinted with corrections in 2005. Last edited by Saurondil; 01-12-2018 at 12:56 AM. |
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#26 |
Overshadowed Eagle
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Ah, the cover art! D'you know, that never even occurred to me? But Tolkien's design is indeed very clear. That answers that.
![]() (Incidentally, the cover art for The Two Towers also answers once and for all what the 'two towers' were - it's Orthanc and Minas Morgul. And is that a very bird-like Fell Beast flying between them...? But that's probably a question for another thread.) hS |
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#27 | |
Animated Skeleton
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![]() A connection between the Valacirca, the Seven Stars, the shape of Numenor, the Star of Feanor, and the Crown of Durin, would have been better.... ![]() |
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#28 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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Númenor of course was a five-pointed star shape, and the Star of the House of Fëanor is described by Gandalf on the Moria West-gate as only having 'many rays'. The illustration seems to show sixteen. We also see seven Lords of the Valar and seven Queens. The Crown of Durin certainly has seven stars, which would seem to correlate with the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves. Aulë the Vala 'made' the Dwarves with Eru's blessing, and so attains the Seven connection that way, maybe? The Silmarillion in Of the Beginning of Days states the Trees both took seven hours to fully wax and wane. Seven has the Christian significance of being the 'perfect' number; ie the Days of Creation, and in the West of the world today is still considered lucky. I'd be very tempted to say that factored into Tolkien's repeated use of the number.
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