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#1 | |||||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,853
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... and answers too, perhaps.
I'm rereading The Hobbit for the first time in years, and I keep running across random passages which leave me with questions. Some of them I think I've answered; others, not so much. (And yes, most of the actual answers are "The Hobbit wasn't part of the Legendarium when written." But that's no fun.) Quote:
What about the Heroes? Well... if this was a few decades later, he would have tapped Aragorn for the job. But Aragorn is 11 at this point... and his father and grandfather both died in the past decade or so. I think when Gandalf says "heroes... are not to be found", he specifically means "the Line of Isildur is down to one boy right now". Quote:
(This also ties directly into my theory that the Balrog's sword is Anguirel.) Quote:
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Except, of course, for Dorwinion, land of 'heady wines' and once ruled by a king with a Sindarin name. I think this passage might be more evidence for Dorwinion as a Nandorin land. hS
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#2 | |
Dead Serious
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#3 |
Wight
Join Date: Jun 2023
Location: Treading the Narrow Way
Posts: 186
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The only question here that I myself have considered before now, is your first one, about heroes and warriors. Your answer is quite satisfactory, and very plausible.
I enjoyed your comments on how Glamdring and Orcrist came to the possesion of Tom, Bert, and William very much. It makes me wonder if the cave troll that the Fellowship slew in Moria wasn't some sort of a distant relation of theirs... However, I'm not quite so sure about the goblins' recognizing of Orcrist. It begs the question, how long do goblins live? Is it possible that the Misty Mountains harboured six-thousand-year-old goblins? Probably not, but it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility. An alternative answer is that these swords were so legendary amongst the goblins, and of such a distinct appearance that they instantly recognized the weapons despite having never seen them before. That also seems a bit unlikely, but I sort of prefer that idea.
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#4 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,351
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I will return later to discuss more of Huinesoron's excellent list, and will post now to address the Gondolin swords.
Glamdring was Turgon's sword. Assuming that the account found in Lost Tales is, in some form, the final version, Turgon retreated into his tower and died when the tower was brought down during the assault. This seems to be confirmed in The Silmarillion ("the tower was overthrown; and mighty was its fall and the fall of Turgon in its ruin."). Thir presents an intriguing scenario. Morgoth's forces did not merely destroy Gondolin, grab what spoils were readily available and leave. They took the time to dig through the rubble and thus find Turgon's sword where it was buried. There has been significant speculation about Orcrist. Some suggest that it was Ecthelion's sword. Lost Tales suggests that he was wounded and dropped his sword, before impaling Gothmog on the spike of his helmet. This is a guess, at best. How did the Trolls end up with the swords? This question can be resolved only via speculation. Elrond suggests that the Trolls plundered "other plunderers" or found a hidden cache of valuables. Where this may have taken place is unknown. Spoils buried in Angmar? A cache in Moria? My hesitation regarding the last is that the trolls in The Hobbit were northern hill trolls, not the cave-trolls present in Moria.
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#5 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,853
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Quote:
A new question: what actually is Durin's Day? Quote:
hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#6 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,356
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As for "Beater and Biter", if it was goblins and not Bilbo who made up these names, what could have impressed the goblins so much that they would single these swords out? The superior makemanship? The fact that they were the only surviving swords of ancient Elven make, which glowed in the dark? Or perhaps some legend passed down back from the days of the First Age, the last time when they could have faced these blades in actual battle?
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#7 | |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,351
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Regarding the swords:
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Who are the Warriors Gandalf is thinking of? In my view, this is a bit of Hobbitish embellishment by Bilbo, the author. Gandalf is justifying his recruiting a "burglar" rather than a group of armed adventurers. There are few or no well-known "mighty warriors" or heroes at that time, and certainly no Turin who could single-handedly take on a dragon.
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#8 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,989
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Great questions, hS.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#9 | |||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,853
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How old is(n't) Smaug? I've always assumed he was ancient and terrible, but:
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EDIT: Quote:
hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Huinesoron; 04-23-2024 at 11:00 AM. |
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#10 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,853
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Not so much a question, but:
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hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#11 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,351
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from the perspective of storytelling, the climax of the story is the Battle of Five Armies and Thorin's death scene. To add chapters after this about how Gandalf and Bilbo came across wolves, stray goblins or mosquitos, or that they ran out of food would be rather anti-climactic (excuse the pun). Of course, one could argue that Tolkien did exactly this in LoTR.
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#12 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,989
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It does, however, suggest a conundrum. If the compelling nature of thrilling stories is the threat to life--"great danger"--what does that suggest about any stories the elves would tell, given their immortality or longevity? We hear a great deal about loremasters and the information Gandalf seeks in Minas Tirith but that appears to be history rather than fiction/narrative. There's not a great deal of Middle earth intertextual references to narrative, although there is to the hinted at historical past. There is to songs, rhymes, poems but did the elves or hobbits have drama or fiction (ie, made up stories rather than historical report). Perhaps that is why the elves got into making beautiful objects rather than creating a literature? For Tolkien the great themes were death and immortality. But not others?
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#13 | |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Jun 2024
Posts: 1
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Quote:
Last edited by batysvan; 06-06-2024 at 04:45 AM. |
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