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11-29-2004, 04:27 AM | #1 | ||
Princess of Skwerlz
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LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 02 - The Riders of Rohan
As I see it, this chapter concentrates on two leaders and their decisions. The first of them is Aragorn, whose tracking skills figure prominently in the events. He reads the signs right and makes the right decisions, with only one moment of doubt about his ability to do so. Legolas and Gimli support, advise, and encourage him, and do not challenge his leadership.
The second is Éomer, whose leadership and decisions are accepted by his men, though they do not all agree. Though he needs some convincing and asks for information first, he makes a difficult (and right, since we can see it in hindsight) decision to let the three continue, even lending them horses of Rohan. The most important exchange of words between the two of them is their determination of allegiance, clarifying the question, “Whom do you serve?” When both are satisfied that Sauron is their common foe, they are able to join forces, though not in immediate action. This is a long chapter and chockfull of information, introducing us to Rohan and its inhabitants, and giving descriptions of the land. Which parts do you find most important and interesting? There are the potentially dangerous and then humorous exchanges between Gimli and Éomer, which result in one of my favorite lines: Quote:
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What do you think of Saruman’s hostile influence on the land and the feeling that they are actively opposed by his will since entering it? The chapter ends under the eaves of Fangorn, with an uncertainty whether it is hostile to them, with the loss of the horses, and of course with the mystery of the identity of the cloaked old man who appears to them. Tolkien very skillfully builds suspense here. We have much food for discussion – I look forward to many good posts!
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' Last edited by Estelyn Telcontar; 12-03-2004 at 03:06 PM. Reason: Rhovanion and Rohan are not the same... |
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11-29-2004, 04:43 AM | #2 |
The Perilous Poet
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Another good starter post, Princess. As we've recently focussed on one of the Men of the party, let's take a peek at t'other. While reading your above opening, I couldn't help thinking that - a) you're correct, he develops more in the wise leader stakes through this chapter and - b) how everyone he meets through the course of his journey to MT has a different lesson for him. It's a very different story of growth from Frodo's; indeed, you could argue that where Frodo lost part of himself every step of the way through the books, Aragorn was constantly adding elements to himself.
This accretion and subtraction dichotomy is a nice, simple parallel for the flux of ME races, as Men multiply, and the others fade away, amongst other things. But back to my original point, on Aragorn - and his meeting with Eomer, where, as you say, Aragorn develops further leadership skills. He has learned from Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond, and comes the turn of a very different sort of leader to show him another form of leadership.
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11-29-2004, 06:56 AM | #3 | |||
Deadnight Chanter
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Háma: Quote:
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The attitude and behavioral pattern when in relation with objectives is once again confirmed with Háma, plus the mode of dealing with it is suggested as well - in dealing with Good and Evil, man must rely on what is rational and, at the same time, intuitive in him - his wisdom - in this case, opposed to 'knowledge' or 'data' rather than being its synonim. Third case is a paragon of application - what should be actually done when first two requirements are met, for it is not enough just to discern Good and Evil, one has to act, to 'go to war'. 'Thus shall I sleep better', for: * I ackowledged objective reality of Good (1) * Given concrete situation I discerned it from Evil (with amount of wisdom (as opposed to, but including, along with intuition, certain amount of knowledge (2), * Now I act upon my judgement (3) Instances are found a-plenty throughout the book, as all 'good' characters are 'agreed' that this is 'how business should be done', just here author gives it sharp and clear, by 'sleight of hand' making it as well the main hinge on which Eomér's conviction is hung - Aragorn's appeal starts here, and than is supported by his 'high lineage and credentials'.
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11-29-2004, 08:39 AM | #4 | ||||
Illustrious Ulair
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I was struck by the similarity of Eomer's words to Aragorn:
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We have almost a mirror image of the Aragorn/Eomer 'confrontation' in the Frodo/Faramir, & I think the similarities & differences are deliberately pointed up by Tolkien. Aragorn clearly displays an unmistakeable authority, nobility & royalty, such that even when he appears out of nowhere to a total stranger those things are plain to see. Frodo, on the other hand, even though his mission is the more important, has none of those things. Aragorn will not submit, & if necessary will fight an impossible battle with the Rohirrim: Quote:
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It seems that Aragorn still has hope (or he has at last found it again). He has accepted his destiny & will from now on do what he knows to be right, whatever risks he must take, while Frodo seems to have submitted to his fate - which is not that of Aragorn - ie to rule, but to serve, to submit to a fate he cannot control, & which has taken him over - took him over way back in Bag End. Frodo's submissiveness increases throughout the story, Aragorn's dominance increases. And in the end Aragorn will choose his own passing from the world, while Frodo will be carried away from it. But there is a similar mood running through the two halves of TT. The first part is outgoing, 'extravert'; it is the story of men fighting to exert their will, to rule, to order things for the Right. The second half is the story of Hobbits, inward looking, 'introverted', carried along inexorably to their destiny. |
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11-29-2004, 01:22 PM | #5 | |||||
A Mere Boggart
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This chapter, at first glance, is a simple narrative of adventure and exploration, where we follow the chase and meet Eomer. Yet there is more to it than may at first meet the eye.
Here we see Aragron's superior skills as a tracker and outdoorsman. I was struck by the way he even spotted orc tracks in a waterway (waterways are well known for hiding tracks and scent), and how he put his ear to the ground to detect movement and sound: Quote:
The second aspect I was struck by was the 'magic' and wonder in the chapter. When Eomer talks with the three travellers, the conversation is a long series of strange revelations for him. Firstly he is surprised by the appearance of the the three, 'sprung out of the grass'. He is then forced to think about the fact that Galadriel exists, who seems to have been a figure of legend to him: Quote:
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The chapter then moves on and we see the travellers mystified in their turn, as they camp beneath the eaves of Fangorn. Here even Legolas is out of his element, and Aragorn is unable to offer any explanation for the mystery of the trees. The travellers then seemingly receive a 'visitation' - this passage is one of the most vividly magical in the whole book: Quote:
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11-29-2004, 02:45 PM | #6 |
Laconic Loreman
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I wanted to point out the first steps of Symbolism betweem Rohan and Gondor. Right now we have two aging kings (or stewards) of the respective kingdoms. Rohan's Theoden his mind is overthrown, Gondor's Denethor, has already, or is about to be overthrown by the palantir. You might want to say that the friendships aren't really at the bests either. Denethor hates Sauron but also hates anyone that doesn't fight under him. Theoden is an old man listening to bad councilling. Grant it, these two kingdoms don't "hate" eachtother, but they seem distant, seperated, they aren't as strong as they used to be. I actually think a big reason why Theoden decided to ride for Gondor was to keep true to the Oath of Eorl. Anyway, that's the current situation.
Now, we have Aragorn and Eomer meet. Both are future kings of their respected Kingdoms, but they aren't kings right now. It's the friendship that these two future kings create, which will symbolize the strong bonds between Gondor and Rohan that are to come in later days. For these two do create a strong friendship, and they continue that friendship after the war. Also in connection with these two future kings are their enemies, Saruman and Sauron. Right now Rohan's enemy is Saruman, and Aragorn comes to aid to help out Eomer (and Rohan) win the battle of Helm's Deep, and defeat Rohan's enemy, Saruman. Later, Aragorn's (Or Gondor's) enemy is Sauron. Eomer (and Rohan) ride out to the aid of Gondor, and defeat their enemy (well praise Eru) Sauon. Rather interesting, and I love this symbolism between the friendships of these two influential leaders, that's all I have to add.
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11-29-2004, 11:34 PM | #7 | |||
Scion of The Faithful
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No smoking.
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11-30-2004, 03:09 PM | #8 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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(Well, like a fool I just posted this in the thread on the last chapter because I wasn't paying attention! It belongs here, but Encaitare placed a response there to it, so I don't want to delete it & make anyone else look silly, so I'm copying it here)
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Or is it something else - a kind of 'divine right of kings' thing. Has Aragorn worn this 'spiritual' crown all along, or has it just appeared in this moment? If Aragorn truly wears a 'spiritual' crown, then who placed it on his head? Surely only Illuvatar could place such a crown on Aragorn's head - has Aragorn been divinely appointed ruler of Middle earth by God? I suppose this is a central question as far as leadership in Middle earth is concerned. Are kings simply appointed by their people, or at the least, must they rule with the consent of their people? Does this shed light on the Kinstrife which nearly brought Gondor to ruin, & on Denethor's dismissal of Aragorn as 'last of a ragged house, long bereft of Lordship & dignity'? Is there some sense in which the Stewards have a role in deciding who has been divinely appointed to rule? So that they must be satisfied not simply that the claimant is a suitable ruler, with the right inheritance, but also that he has been divinely appointed. Certainly this would make Denethor's reluctance to accept Aragorn more significant - if he believes Aragorn's house has long since been bereft of Lordship & dignity, then he would have some case. And that leads on to a further question - he dosen't say Aragorn's house has lost its 'lordship & dignity' he says it has been bereft of those things - they have been taken away - but by whom, & for what reason? If Illuvatar is the one who bestowed Lordship & dignity (ie the divinely appointed right to rule) then wouldn't that imply that Illuvatar was the one who took it away? In the end (at the end), we see the people of Gondor accepting Aragorn as their ruler - but is that simply because he has lead them to victory in the war against Sauron, or is there more to it - has he shown, besides that, that he is truly the divinely appointed King? |
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11-30-2004, 03:35 PM | #9 | ||||
A Mere Boggart
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The light of Aragorn is something I have noticed for a long time as a recurrent theme throughout the books. It is first revealed at the Prancing Pony, where the light is within Aragorn’s eyes:
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But there is something else here. In each of these quotes, he is shown as throwing back his cloak. Aside from this being a grand and dramatic gesture, is his ‘light’ hidden beneath this cloak? Reading on a little, his encounter with Eowyn is slightly different: Quote:
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11-30-2004, 03:53 PM | #10 | ||
Stormdancer of Doom
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This is a whole book ahead of ourselves! Quote:
But in Gondor, such things were dismissed as Old Ioreth Tales, and much wisdom was (almost) lost.
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11-30-2004, 07:49 PM | #11 | ||||||
Corpus Cacophonous
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Aragorn's journey
First a quick observation:
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In last week's discussion, I indicated my view that, in the previous Chapter, he reached a low point with Boromir's death, and seemed to almost lose hope. But that Chapter left him with renewed determination and decisiveness. And now we see him in his element - using his formidable tracking skills to follow the trail of the Orcs and pick up the clues that have been left in their wake. Just as the need for these skills in the previous Chapter allowed him to make the choices that were required, so his confidence builds in this Chapter as he relies on those skills which, through many years in the wild, now come almost naturally to him and in which he has complete confidence. And, in turn, he comes to have increased confidence in himself generally. No more is he grappling with hard choices. His actions throughout this Chapter are quick and decisive. He is momentarily at a loss when the Orcs' trail is lost in the valley but he is able to find the evidence that he needs to point the way and, once found, is swift in his resolve to follow. When the time comes to make a the choice between resting and continuing, Legolas and Gimli, accepting him as their leader, look to him for a decision (having presented the opposing arguments). It is, as he says, a "hard choice" since resting will allow the Orcs to get further away while continuing risks missing clues in the darkness and wearing themselves (or Aragorn and Gimli at least) out. But Aragorn makes his decision and sticks with it. He is still not entirely sure of himself. But he is making choices - and it seems to me that he is making the right ones. But it is in the encounter with Eomer and his Men that Aragorn really proves his mettle. Whereas Legolas and Gimli risk bringing the wrath of the Riders on them with their words, Aragorn handles the situation perfectly. Although, after stepping in to prevent things "going ill", his first words are conciliatory, he is no less confrontational than his companions in insisting that Eomer declares where his allegiance lies. But he speaks with authority and has the confidence to declare his heritage. His challenge to Eomer is, given their situation, breathtaking in its audacity: Quote:
As to whether he has a “divine right” to rule, I must say that the point seems rather moot to me. If he had not gained the support of the people of Gondor, then divine right would have counted for little. And it is through his words and action that he gains their trust and support, just as he does in this Chapter with Eomer (and it is also notable, in this regard, that Legolas and Gimli accept him as their leader without question or even comment). I find the reaction of Eomer and his Men to the tales with which they are confronted very interesting indeed: Quote:
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And this in itself enhances the credibility of the fantasy. It is the realisation (subconsciously perhaps) of our complete acceptance of the fantasy that affirms it as "reality" for us in the context of the story. Whether this was intentional on Tolkien's part I cannot say for sure, but the way in which he has the Rohirrim regard Hobbits as the stuff of legends persuades me that it was, since they are the characters with whom we have from the start been led to identify most closely with.
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11-30-2004, 09:27 PM | #12 | ||
Bittersweet Symphony
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Here is the response I made to davem's post, in the last CbC thread by accident, reposted here in case anyone's interested:
----------------- Just a thought in response to davem's final question: Quote:
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12-01-2004, 03:23 AM | #13 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
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In other words, were they awaiting the divinely appointed king & Aragorn's victory proved to them that that's who he was, or was their sole criteria for judging that he had beaten Sauron? Quote:
Oh, & I wonder if the light which Legoals sees on Aragorn's brow is in any way meant to echo the tongues of flame which descend on the apostles at Pentecost. |
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12-01-2004, 07:00 AM | #14 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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Now it may be argued that many of these qualities bear the hallmark of Eru's influence, in which case, yes, there is an element of (indirect) divine right in Aragorn's claim and acceptance. And I think that Legolas' "vision" here is good supporting evidence of this argument and Tolkien's intentions in this regard.
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12-01-2004, 07:02 AM | #15 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
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12-01-2004, 07:29 AM | #16 | ||
A Mere Boggart
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This brings to mind another instance where a King returns to his 'divine right', that of Charles II; the circumstances of this return follow the English 'republic' (there's some question over this however...) which proved unsuccessful in the end, as has done the Stewardship with Denethor's poor judgement. Though maybe I will develop the thinking on this one for Boromir 88's politics thread as it's a tad thorny. Quote:
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12-01-2004, 02:11 PM | #17 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Its this distinction between Destiny & Fate which Tolkien seems to be exploring in the tales of Aragorn & Frodo. Destiny is not fate, because it can be accepted or rejected. There is freedom of choice in Destiny, but not so with fate. Frodo's fate was sealed when he took up the Ring - effectively he became a 'servant' & had to submit - in fact, the times he comes closest to failing are those moments when he tries to take control of situations - when he casts aside that 'power of another kind' which Gandalf says is present in the Shire - humility. Frodo is humble before his fate, submitting to it & it carries him forward to his destined end. When Frodo refuses to be humble, when he treats fate as destiny, something he can accept or reject is when he comes closest to disaster. Aragorn, on the other hand, comes closest to failing when he treats his Destiny as fate - expecting circumstances to sweep him along without effort - hence all his complaints about things not working out as he wished. These early chapters of books 3&4 show the two heroes coming to a realisation of their respective roles. Frodo realises he must become a 'servant' of fate, Aragorn a master of his destiny. As Aragorn says of Frodo & Sam, theirs has been the hardest road, & so it was, because submission, humility, service, is harder to bear than rulership, yet it is Frodo & Sam's humble service which saves the world, not Aragorn's power & dominance in battle. Not a very 21st century message. |
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12-01-2004, 02:38 PM | #18 | |
A Mere Boggart
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Yet Frodo is the one under the bigger amount of pressure. In order to achieve what fate has told him he must do, he has to accept humility; then he must forego his status and allow his ego to be damaged - something that not many of us today would be prepared to accept as we all wish to attain 'status'. It is now being shown that stress is suffered more by those without choice or power in their daily lives; Frodo must undergo this lack of control, unlike Aragorn, who does have the choice, and who does have power.
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12-02-2004, 08:21 AM | #19 | ||
Gibbering Gibbet
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Some very nice points about Aragorn that I would like to pick up on, as this really is his chapter.
The issue of choice and Destiny (lovely distinction you make, davem, between Frodo-Aragorn and Fate-Destiny) undergoes a profound shift in this chapter. To this point, the story has been concerned with the choices that Aragorn must make, but with his introduction to Eomer, suddenly something new happens. Rather than Aragorn making a choice, he becomes the choice: Quote:
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That light which flickers around his brows is seen only by the Elf, so I have a hard time seeing it as some kind of overt sign of his right to rule Men. Instead, I think that moment speaks more about Legolas than Aragorn, for it charts the Elf’s reaction to the challenge presented by Aragorn. To Men, he appears as a great Man and King of old; one who commands their allegiance and demands that they make a hard choice about him. For the Elf, over whom he does not have sovereignty, he reveals that Numenorean aspect of his lineage that is Elvish. It’s as though Aragorn is finally so confident and integrated in himself that he begins to present the same challenge to others that he has successfully overcome in himself. One of the nicer ways that this is demonstrated in the chapter is his use of his tracking, Ranger skills. To this point in the story, he has only really ‘been’ a Ranger from Bree to Rivendell, so it might appear ironic that in the very chapter that he emerges as the heir of Elendil that he is also acting as a Ranger once more – but I think it makes perfect sense insofar as he is no longer torn, but an integrated self. He is both Strider (Telcontar) and Aragorn (Elessar), and its this unity of self that gives him the remarkable strength and purpose with which to command (or challenge?) the loyalties of other men.
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12-03-2004, 03:07 AM | #20 | |||
Hauntress of the Havens
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Ah, now here's the chapter to go completely Aragorn swooning!
It is interesting to note that as Boromir died in the previous chapter, bereaving Gondor of his leadership, another leader is rising to take his place...something like the authority over Gondor being "reborn." Not only that, Aragorn himself was given "new life." He has lost almost all hope upon Boromir's death, but here he is in this chapter, showing us little by little how he deserves the throne of Gondor. I find it ironic that he doesn't see himself as a leader worth following. Despite the assurance of Gimli and Legolas that they will follow his guidance, he says: Quote:
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End of swooning, for now. I pity Eomer in this chapter. I cannot imagine how much amazement and shock he had to deal with as he conversed with the Man, Elf, and Dwarf. He was given proof of realities he thought were legends all along, and to make it worse, a stranger challenged him...and in his own lands, too! It must have been a very humbling action for him even just to cast down his proud eyes when Aragorn revealed his identity to him. After all these, he had to make a decision that forces him to choose between the circumstances and the laws. Should he do what he thinks is right yet is against what he knows is right (i.e. aid Aragorn and disregard the law), or do what is right beyond the shadow of the doubt? Either way, the repercussions are still unclear to him, for he cannot see the big picture. But in the end, he takes a big risk, which we realize as he tells Aragorn what he has decided... Quote:
Last edited by Lhunardawen; 12-03-2004 at 03:10 AM. Reason: OC |
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12-03-2004, 03:09 PM | #21 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Thanks to Bęthberry for pointing out a mistake in my introductory post - I said that Éomer lent Aragorn and Co. "Rhovanian" horses, which was incorrect - Rhovanion and Rohan are not the same. I edited the post to read "horses of Rohan" now.
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12-03-2004, 11:12 PM | #22 | |
Scion of The Faithful
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Aragorn's "crown"
For a moment it seemed to the eyes of Legolas that a white flame flickered on the brows of Aragorn like a shining crown.Why, indeed, did only the Elf see this crown? During the Third Age Men’s dominion was not yet consummate. Elves and Wizards still play a huge role in the affairs of Middle-earth. So we have these two major forces in history: The Fading Ones (The Eldar and the Istari), the once-rulers; and the Followers, the soon-to-be rulers. And Aragorn is a bridge between these two: Quote:
Now I believe that Aragorn had been “crowned” first in Moria, when Gandalf made him leader of the Fellowship. But hitherto he has not yet accepted this crown fully. Hitherto, I said above. Let us look at the quote again, this time including the sentences before it: Gimli and Legolas looked at their companion in amazement, for they had not seen him in this mood before. He seemed to have grown in stature while Eomer had shrunk; and in his living face they caught a brief vision of the power and majesty of the kings of stone. For a moment it seemed to the eyes of Legolas that a white flame flickered on the brows of Aragorn like a shining crown.His companions have not seen him in this mood before—this kingly mood. It was, perhaps, in this moment that he first truly accepted this crown. Notice that both companions have seen the vision of power and majesty in his face, while it was only the Elf who saw the crown of light. He had this power and majesty in him all along, so it could be visible for all to see, if he so wishes to reveal it. But the crown . . . he has yet to win it over Men. Only the foresighted Fading Ones could see it for now. [NOTE: There, Fordim, I’ve transplanted that idea (of Aragorn's "crowning") to CbC. Have I ever thanked you for that encouraging rep you gave oh-so-long ago? ]
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12-04-2004, 08:49 PM | #23 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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Book Legolas
I suppose one good thing about being too busy to write long posts these days is that short little ideas catch my eyes. There is a comment given to Legolas which reminds me of an old saying I grew up with.
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One other small point: While I agree with everyone here, going back to Estelyn's good opening salvo, that this is Aragorn's chapter, I was also struck by the number of opportunities where we get to see Legolas' elven traits brought out, traits which really supply important information at times in this terrible endurence trek. And not just that eagle!
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12-05-2004, 02:04 AM | #24 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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There is an essay in the 1992 Centenary collection which I've referred to before which goes into Legolas' ability to instantly discern that there are 105 Rohirrim at such a great distance, & how this would seem to imply that Elves' brains function differently - how could his eyes pick up on such detail at that distance or his brain calculate at that speed? Or what is the nature of Elven 'sleep' - are there different kinds of 'sleep' for Elves. Is there what we would call 'normal' sleep & a kind of half-sleep half meditation? Whether this ties in with Tolkien's ideas about the Elves existing at once in 'both' worlds is another question. Are there two (or more) kinds of 'waking' for Elves. When they 'remember' past events (which Gimli says is is more like to the waking world) are they 'awake' or 'asleep' or in some third state which is different from either full waking or true sleep? What would it be like to exist in two worlds at once, & how different are those two worlds - do they have different physical laws? Were there always two seperate worlds, or have they become seperated - maybe at the time when the world changed at the fall of Numenor? Is the 'other' world still the original flat earth - which would perhaps explain why they can still find the Straight Road into the West? Do Elves like Legolas walk on both a straight & a 'curved' world? Maybe Legolas can see the Rohirrim at such a great distance & calculate their number instantly because the physics of the Other World are different to the physics of this world? |
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12-05-2004, 06:01 AM | #25 |
Cryptic Aura
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davem, have you ever considered joining the RPG forums?
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12-05-2004, 07:43 AM | #26 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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12-05-2004, 10:27 AM | #27 | |||
A Mere Boggart
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There is another instance of the ‘red dawn’ being a portent of doom:
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On the nature of Elven sleep, I’m sure that this is strongly linked to the nature of Elven time. If an immortal has a wholly different perception of the passing of time, surely they should have a different need for sleep? I would like to think that they need to sleep less often than mortals, yet in proportion to their infinite lives, it would be equivalent to the sleep that mortals take. To work out why Legolas can see so far will need some very ‘out there’ physics to begin to explain, but I shall attempt it, at the risk of the men in white coats coming out again, and possibly they will be having to round up anyone who attempts to read this. This goes back to the concept of Light, though in a purely (or is it?) scientific sense. Light travels one foot in one billionth of a second, and the Light from the Sun takes 8 minutes to reach us. If the Sun exploded (presuming its constituent parts would travel at no faster a velocity than the speed of light), then we would not know this for 8 minutes; we would experience the past in the present. So in effect, all the Light we receive is the past, it is something which has already happened; our Light (and our present) is the Sun‘s history. As for Time, it exists at several levels, including psychological time, and our psychological time by necessity moves forwards. Here is what Hawking says of this: Quote:
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12-05-2004, 12:03 PM | #28 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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So, Arda at the end of time, would have reached a state of 'perfection'. It would become what Eru had concieved it to be in the beginning - yet it would 'only' then match what it had 'been' in His mind. In that case could we really speak of that being the 'end', as it would actually be (physically)what it had been originally? This is like the ouroboros, the serpent with its tail in its mouth - 'In my end is my beginning'.
One of the novels that most affected Tolkien was Eddison's The Worm Ouroborus, which basically ends at its beginning, the world of the novel having been turned back on itself, so the whole story would repeat throughout eternity, with the same characters foing the same things. Or we have Nietszche's Eternal return.... The Elves seek not to go into the West, but to return into the West - they seem to think in terms not of going forward but of going back, as though their foray into the 'outer' world has been a 'circular' movement. Yet they take the 'straight' road to get back to where they started. They are constantly driven to 'return' is the West for them as much a symbol of the 'beginning' to which they are drawn as it is 'Home'? Quote:
They are artists, seeking perfection in their creations - yet that perfection they desire had only existed at one point - in the Mind of Eru before the Music. Quote:
But what does this make Elves - what does it say about their nature? Without rehashing the old 'Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes' arguments, does this mena that the Elves have such 'control' over their perception of time that they can choose not to count it - to actually exist psychologically outside time - so that the Rings do to the physical environment what the Elves (can) do to their mental environment & halt it, or cause it to run a different speeds - if for them memory is like to the waking world is that because they can mentally move backwards in time & be in that space-time again, reliving it? And so, their vision of a perfect 'state' would not be one of a perfect future time but a perfect past - the one that exists eternally in the Mind of Eru? Yet, having said that, what would 'past' or 'future' mean to them, if they had that kind of power over it (or, which is the same thing, it had so little power over them.) |
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12-05-2004, 12:31 PM | #29 | |||
A Mere Boggart
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Still, this theory would only 'fit' for the Eldar. I am not so sure that Elven time can be speeded up or slowed down, I think that they perceive time at an entirely different pace to mortals, one outside our easy comprehension. They see the world as Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by as mortal creatures are born, live and die in the mere blink of an eye to them; they see the world as Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves as the great expanse of eternity is infinite. Quote:
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12-05-2004, 12:47 PM | #30 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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12-05-2004, 01:19 PM | #31 | ||
A Mere Boggart
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Back to Tolkien. Quote:
Another train of thought - perhaps the reason that the rings of power turned mortals into wraiths was that they contained some power of Time or Light which disspipated the very substance of mortals? Would they turn mortals into Dark Matter? I am speculating now, as Tolkien would surely not have known of Dark Matter? |
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12-05-2004, 02:52 PM | #32 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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Too rushed......
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12-05-2004, 11:36 PM | #33 | |||
Late Istar
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It's been a somewhat crazy week for me, hence the lateness of my appearance. But I cannot let this chapter go by without a comment or two.
To me, this has always been the chapter that opens the book up, as it were - widening both the perspective and the subject matter. Up until now, we have been dealing with the Ring. We have followed the Ring from Bilbo to Frodo, from Bag End to Rivendell, from Rivendell to Rauros. Even the previous chapter was still in a sense dealing with the Ring - at least, it dealt very specifically with the aftermath of the breaking of the fellowship, which had everything to do with the Ring. Not so in this chapter. Of course, the Ring continues to be of primary importance. But this chapter itself does not deal with the Ring, nor with Frodo, at all. I cannot, for the most part, remember my reactions the first time I read LotR (or rather, the first time my mother read it to me - I was rather young). But I recently succeeded in convincing my father to read it, and his reaction to Book III struck me at first as odd - then as completely natural. His reaction was a kind of impatience with the story (though not dislike) and a desire to return to Sam and Frodo. I found it odd at first because I happen to prefer Book III to Book IV, overall. But then I realized that it is, one might expect, the natural response. Something strange is going on; after spending four hundred pages with Frodo and the Ring we are suddenly thrust aside into a story concerning Saruman and Rohan. Why did Tolkien do this? One answer is that, of course, the Merry/Pippin/Saruman/Rohan thread connects up with the Ring thread in a critical way. But of course it's only like that because Tolkien wrote it that way. He could, if he had wanted to, have continued with the story of Frodo and brought it to a conclusion by itself. Another answer is that Tolkien didn't have the rest of the story planned out in much detail and was more or less making things up as he went along. This is true to an extent. But we might put the question better: why is it that this division of the story works? The answer, I think, has to do with Tolkien's idea of a believable or self-consistent world. I noted in the discussion of 'The Old Forest' that the Old Forest/Bombadil/Barrow-downs trilogy has little to do, directly, with the story of the Ring. But: Quote:
And it works! This chapter really does, I think, make Middle-earth seem real. A new vista, both of plot and of (fictional) space, has opened up. We begin now to enter a world of kingdoms, wars, and politics that was only hinted at before. We got a glimpse of it in I-2 and another in II-2. Now, at the moment when Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli confront Eomer, we actually enter it. Edit: I wasn't going to comment, but I couldn't restrain myself. Forgive me. Lalwende wrote: Quote:
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Now, I don't think that invalidates any of the substance of your arguments. I just think that there's no reason to bring dark matter into them. Last edited by Aiwendil; 12-05-2004 at 11:45 PM. |
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12-06-2004, 01:49 AM | #34 | ||
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Red dawn . . .
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Just one word kept coming back to me: shepherds. The Ents, the Shepherds of the Trees, may be the ones being warned (or delighted)--after all, it was the same day when Merry and Pippin blundered into Treebeard. A delight and warning to the old Ent the two have been! Perhaps Legolas just saw it and interpreted it as if it was for their own, which it wasn't: As before Legolas was first afoot, if indeed he had ever slept. "Awake! Awake!" he cried. "It is a red dawn. Strange things await us by the eaves of the forest. Good or evil, I do not know; but we are called. Awake!"Treebeard may have read it himself, and that could explain the fact why he was there on the eaves--well, relatively near to it--of his forest. But that's already two chapters in advance.
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12-06-2004, 02:47 AM | #35 | ||
Deadnight Chanter
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Total agreement. To back you up (not that you need it much, but still), I'll wallow in self-repeating: Quote:
edit: Dark matter will stand uncommented upon edit2: Um, but why not. Ok - Nazgul can't be compared to Dark Matter on the basis that Dark Matter is not, as indicated, absence of matter as such (I believe the view that vacuum is 'nothingness' is out of date also), whilst their mode of existence is more or less absence of life and their longevity is due not to an abundance of life, but to lack thereof. So to say, those who can not die can not live either. Etc cheers
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12-11-2004, 02:44 PM | #36 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Dragging this back up because of something Evisse mentioned in a rep comment about extraversion & introversion.
The first 'book' of Towers is, as I said, extraverted, & the second introverted. This has got me thinking about Boromir & Faramir. Boromir is the extravert - what you see is what you get. He is focussed 'outwards' on the world around him & on his interactions with others. Faramir, on the other hand, seems to be a typical introvert, quiet, thoughtful, only acting when he has considered all possibilities. I think this is maybe the reason why we respond more quickly to Boromir, & why some people find him a more convincing character. He is 'shallower' than Faramir, & so is easier to get a handle on. We see Boromir's struggle clearly & openly with the lure of the Ring, & so can see how it is affecting him & can sympathise with him. We can believe in his struggle. Faramir, on the other hand, is an introvert - his 'struggle' goes on under the surface, & all we see is the result of that inner conflict - it seems to just 'appear' out of nowhere, & thus can seem less 'believable'. But the struggle is no doubt of the same intensity. I think something else we should take into account is that by his nature Boromir would not have gone in for the kind of spiritual & philosophical struggle that Faramir would have done for most of his adult life - which is something we introverts tend to do. Boromir would have simply 'acted' in response to the 'moment'. Faramir would have spent a long time thinking about moral issues, & have found a perspective on things like power & control which Boromir simply would not have. Faramir may not have had any idea about the Ring itself, but he was familiar with what it meant & the issues around such a thing. so, it would have been easier for him to come to a realisation of the right thing to do. His struggle would not have been over [i]what[i/] was the right thing to do with the Ring (which is effectively the dilemma Boromir struggled with) but, knowing what the right thing to do was, how to find the will to do it. I think this is what's happening in these two complementary books - the first is asking 'what is the Right thing to do?'(see Aragorn's questions to Eomer), the second (following on from what we have learned about power in the first) is asking 'Now we know the right thing to do, how do we find the strength of will to do it. The 'spirit' of Boromir dominates book 3, that of Faramir book 4. And i think that's why tolkien began book 3 with the Departure of Boromir, rather than ending book 2 with it. |
01-17-2005, 10:35 AM | #37 | ||
Brightness of a Blade
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The doom of choice
What I'm going to say is not exactly new - in fact is has to do with the quote that you all have more or less, touched upon and which seems to underline the main theme of the chapter:
Eomer, bewildered by what he calls strange happenings in his time, asks how shall a man judge what to do in such times. The wording of this attracts my attention, in that he does not say: "How shall I judge" but how shall a man judge -it's as if he's asking Aragorn for advice and Aragorn does give precious advice. [Insert the well known quote here.] It is my conviction that Tolkien himself uses Aragorn, a character whom most readers admire and look up to, to give the world in which he lived in, advice on the matter. Tolkien was less a preacher than Lewis was, but this very thing makes his moral statements, cloaked in narrative charm, even more effective. Aragorn's advice, this moral statement is one of a world long gone, ruled by honesty and a clear cut, sometimes too harshly drawn (some may say) line between good and evil. In modern times, good and evil, like so many things are relative to the speaker. You have a different reality that is your own and therefore a different idea of good and evil than mine, and we try not to step on each other's toes, and tolerate each other's separate realities. Which all seems very nice and proper. Here's another quote from a similar period in time and which is closely related to the discussion. It's from the Bible: Quote:
"We do not serve the Power of the Black Land far away but neither are we yet at open war with him." Later Aragorn reveals himself as 'hot' (and, er, I hope I won't be quoted with this out of context ) and orders Eomer - foreshadowing indeed the great leader he is gradually becoming - to "Choose swiftly!" Eomer chooses to aid him, persuaded by both the truth in his words and the majesty of his appearance - To note, that it is not only Aragorn's 'charisma' that persuades Eomer, it is the clarity of his reasoning and his truthfulness (*hums "Symphony of Destruction" to illustrate the effect of only Aragorn's charisma, or 'light' or any other supernatural element convincing Eomer to join him). - And in discussing the previous chapter, The Departure of Boromir, so many of you expressed the same wish, to aid Aragorn. Who wouldn't? To paraphrase Fordim, aiding Aragorn means fulfilling the very powerful wish of seeing clearly the path of good and following it with a little more than blind faith: "This is my choice. (...) In this I place myself and maybe my very life in the keeping of your good faith. Do not fail." Eomer's decision is of course made more difficult by the fact that the law would dictate him to thwart Aragorn. His is a difficult choice, but is not ours, and Tolkien himself saw it as he wrote these lines, an even more difficult one? Consider this quote, this time by Tolkien the author himself: Quote:
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09-06-2018, 12:35 PM | #38 |
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If "The Departure of Boromir" was the last gasp of Book II (and there was some considerable discussion in that thread about the placement of the chapter and the aptness of Peter Jackson's decision to make its events the conclusion of the first movie), then "The Riders of Rohan" must perforce be the real start of Book III. Looked at that way, I think it makes sense that Tolkien split the books where he did--coming after Frodo and Sam's departure, "The Departure of Boromir" would have been mere epilogue, a wrapping up of "what happened to the rest of them?" And this would have accelerated a [false] impression that The Lord of the Rings is a trilogy, by wrapping up the action a bit more neatly in the first book.
Instead, Book III opens in media res, since this is but the next block of chapters in the greater story (indeed, one could think of it as a story with but six chapters), and what was begun in "The Departure of Boromir" is continued in "The Riders of Rohan." To turn from macro-chapters to micro-chapters, "The Riders of Rohan" really has three distinct sections: the chase of the three hunters, the actual encounter with the Riders of Rohan, and a sort of epilogue under the trees of Fangorn, where they are baffled by the Hobbits' lack of evidence, the loss of their horses, and the vision of the old man. Although many of Tolkien's chapters do have include distinct narrative chunks, this is the first time I really noticed them as such in a chapter. I think part of that must be that I don't mentally package all three of these micro-chapters together. The chase of the Three Hunters is a bit lifeless and unrelenting--the reader sits along with Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas awaiting resolution to their quest. The encounter with the eored "is" the chapter "The Riders of Rohan" if you were to pick a titular episode, and the epilogue at the edge of Fangorn belongs almost more naturally to "The White Rider" than to the events of "The Riders of Rohan." Although this is hardly the first chapter to cover a lot of territory (more than half the chapters start at Point A and spend a great deal of time covering the journey to Point B), this journey is more relentless than most--not just because of the oppressive will of Saruman looming over the Wold, but strictly because of the pace the ground is being covered at. As Éomer tells them, it was no mean feat to cover so much ground!
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