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09-06-2004, 01:31 AM | #1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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LotR -- Book 1 - Chapter 12 - Flight to the Ford
This is the last chapter in Book 1. Though much of it concerns the injured Frodo and Strider’s efforts to save his life, the other hobbits have their parts to play, and one of the best-loved minor characters (though unknown to movie fans) shows up – Glorfindel. The first tiny clue to Arwen’s existence is given, though few readers will have been aware of it at first reading. There is also a fore-shadowing of the Fell Beasts. The troll “encounter” provides a light-hearted look back at Bilbo’s adventures.
Sam is presumed to be the author of this chapter’s only poem; it gives the others – and us – an additional glimpse of abilities and depths as yet unknown in him. The suspense with which the chapter ends is wonderfully written! We see a Frodo who still has some strength and resistance against the Ringwraiths, although we are left in uncertainty of his survival at the very end. What are your impressions upon reading this chapter?
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09-06-2004, 06:47 AM | #2 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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Christopher Tolkien makes some interesting observations on an early draft of this chapter:
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I don't know how uncomfortable some others felt with the episode with the trolls, but to me it felt a little 'forced', as though Tolkien put it in there in order simply to tie the 'New Hobbit' in with the 'Old'. These stone trolls, with bird's nests behind their ears seem too out of place. Still, it got us Sam's song, so I'll be forgiving. It also got us his declaration that he doesn't want to be either a wizard or a warrior, & maybe, just maybe, thats a glimpse of the reason he's able to resist the lure of the Ring - he simply doesn't want anything it could offer him. Finally, the confrontation with the riders - this shows Tolkien's superiority over the movie scriptwriters, as the culmination of this chapter simply blows away the rather silly version in the movie. Frodo's defiance of the Nazgul, in his near death state, is so moving, so inspiring - though his attempt at commanding them to obey him possibly has darker implications - that what the movie offers us in its place is simply pathetic. (Oh, I noticed for the first time on this reading that the Nazgul attempt to stop Frodo with the Black Breath: Quote:
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09-06-2004, 06:55 AM | #3 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Interesting thoughts, davem, and they prompted another thought - was Frodo the only one who saw Glorfindel shining in the light of Valinor? Was he able to see that because of the influence of the Ring? Could only those who had some connection with the spiritual realm see the light? If so, then there had to be at least some contact between the spiritual realms of light and darkness; apparently the Wraiths saw the light as well. I'm reminded of Biblical accounts of battles between the forces of good and evil, unseen by earthly beings.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
09-06-2004, 08:50 AM | #4 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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About the light... I think that being able to see it must have something to do with a connection to the other world. Elves must be able to see the light on each other, since they are very close to the "spiritual realm". It must be very unusual for a mortal, like Frodo, to see the light because mortals-men, dwarves, and hobbits, are more concerned with the real world, for lack of a better term.
I think Frodo could see the light because of the effects of the Morgul blade drawing him away to the spirit world. However, I don't think Wraiths are in one place or another: They have no visible form, but are able to affect the real world. Frodo was being drawn to their halfway world and so could see the light of Valinor because he was partially in the spiritual realm. --- I love this chapter...It starts out rather grim with Frodo being stabbed and everything, but at this point in the book, the lighter tone still has its moments, perhaps the last moments we will see of the more light writing... The whole thing with the trolls is a great example. Though at first the hobbits are frightened by the possibility of real trolls, the scene turns into a lighthearted adventure in which Strider gets a chance to joke around a little and all the hobbits get their last laugh for a while. I loved this, too: Quote:
--- I agree with davem about the scene at the ford: The book version is much more inspiring and intense. This is the hero-Frodo that doesn't come out so much in the movies. Frodo shows a great inner strength that I don't notice as much in the movie. By the force of his own will, he holds the wraiths off for as long as he can. He resists to the last, fighting so hard against the rising darkness...compared to the movie where he sits like a dummy in front of Arwen on the horse and does absoloutely nothing. I love the movies, but this scene is done much more effectively in the book. The emotions inspired are very different... PJ was going for something else... Tolkien's Frodo inspires the readers and shows just how strong he actually is... The movie shows us how strong Arwen supposedly is. Frodo's battle is much more powerful. I don't really have an issue with Arwen being there in the movie: If they had kept Glorfindel in, but had kept Frodo weak and just sitting there, I would have had a problem with that, too. I understand that they needed a way to introduce Arwen, so I'm not picking on the fact that it was her: I'm picking on the fact that it isn't Frodo's heroism that we see.
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09-06-2004, 12:34 PM | #5 | ||
Alive without breath
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I like to think of it like this; The Barrow Wights were essays in the craft, just like the lesser rings were to the Smiths of Eregion. The Nazgul were perfection in the craft, Like the Tree Elven rings. Do you see where I am coming from? Back on topic; Glorfindel tells Strider to keep the hilt of the Morgul blade, so that Elrond can read the runes from it. To me this seemed very similar to the happenings in the Hobbit concerning Glamdring and Orcrist. Also, I found that here, the Black riders seem to embed their greatest fears in Frodo. Although, to me, they seemed more threatening when they were an unknown shadow in the shire. At least back in the shire Frodo ran but with not as much fear as he had now. He now knows what they are and where they are from, this seems to leave him even more afraid of the, with obvious reasons. Quote:
I think it is here that the desire for the ring works against Sauron. If it was not so precious to Frodo, his will may have broken there and he would have given up the ring with no second thought. However, his great desire for the ring helps him to hold out ageist them.
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09-06-2004, 01:00 PM | #6 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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09-06-2004, 01:32 PM | #7 | |
Brightness of a Blade
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For me, in this chapter Frodo proves himself as a hero for the first time. (of course you can argue there's that Barrow Downs scene when he's cutting off that spidery hand, but that was a desperate gesture, preceeded by many arguments for and against that valiant deed, some not very hero-like...):
I remember reading for the first time and becoming more and more impressed with Frodo, whereas before I was just patiently expectant. What really got to me from the start was his ability to quietly and calmly endure debilitating pains and later on, the fact that he did not ruminate on his very likely to be tragic future, not to mention the tragic outcome of his quest. The chapter is generally from Frodo's point of view, and the only time Frodo allows himself to sink in dark thoughts is when he wonders how they will get on with their journey, seeing as he's unable to walk. I find that really admirable about him. And, of course no less admirable is his final stand at the Ford. I agree with davem that the movie belittles a scene that speaks volumes about Frodo and his desires and courage. It's funny that you used the word 'inspiring' - I was about to comment that the famous line in which Frodo invokes Elbereth and Luthien the Fair sounds like it was 'inspired' to him, by whom I don't know, maybe by the proximity of Rivendell, maybe by Glorfindel. Glorfindel is another revelation of this chapter, and one of my favourite characters. His presence, especially in the context of these troubled events is comforting and protective. He also represents a reader's first encounter with a really powerful Elf. His powers are hinted at even from the moment of his appearance, as Frodo perceives the 'white light' that engulfs him, and later on, as he is able to ease Frodo's pain and clear his vision, even involuntarily, with a simple touch. Speaking of Glorfindel's appearance on his horse, Asfaloth, here's a line that I love: Quote:
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09-06-2004, 02:23 PM | #8 | ||||
Illusionary Holbytla
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The Wraith-world
While reading this chapter I had some musings on the Wraith-world similar to davem's.
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The first quote from Aragorn also touches on a point that I think is relevant to the Morgul blade: "they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us." Later Glorfindel says about the signs on the hilt: "maybe your eyes cannot see them." This would seem to indicate that only those with a connection to the spiritual realm can see/read the signs on the sword. The blade seems to have a very tight connection to the spirtual dimension; if it were just a regular sword I do not think the broken sliver would have continued to work its way inward. This is also a possible reason for why the blade disintegrated. |
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09-06-2004, 02:38 PM | #9 |
Late Istar
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Tolkien has spent almost all of book I (with the exception of chapters 1, 6, 7, and 8) building up the suspense surrounding the Black Riders. It is in this chapter that the suspense really pays off, and gives us a climax to the first book that is both exciting and fulfilling.
Frodo's journey in this chapter seems almost to be a miniature version of his journey in Mordor. Here it is the Morgul blade that threatens to turn him into a wraith; later it is the Ring. In both cases he becomes increasingly weak and distant, so that the real business of journeying is handled by his companions. But in both cases he is in the end separated from his companions and forced to handle things by himself. And that's where the important difference comes - in this chapter he succeeds; he has his moment of heroism where he stands up to the Black Riders. The climax here is, as Davem has already pointed out, far better than what Jackson and his team came up with. It completely undermines the scene for Frodo to have a companion at the end. In the book, there is sort of a miniature eucatastrophe. It appears not only unlikely that Frodo will escape; it appears hopeless. He is alone across the ford from the Nazgul. He cannot outrun them and he knows no reason that they should not be able to simply cross the river and reach him. He is saved by something totally unexpected - the power of Elrond over the river. It's not a huge climax, but it fits Tolkien's usual climactic structure perfectly. Last edited by Aiwendil; 05-17-2005 at 03:37 PM. |
09-06-2004, 09:46 PM | #10 | |
Laconic Loreman
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Aiwendil:
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Another point of Tolkien's structure and I wish I could draw a picture of it. But anyway... Ok, start out, many small problems start happening, which causes our interest to be hightened. So now the "storyline" rises, and keeps rising until the highest point the "climax." Then there is the solution to the climax, and the "storyline" falls. But then another small problem/task occurs in the shire so there is a short rise at the end to catch our attention. That rise/fall after the climax is what is referred to as a "denuement" (spelling? its a stupid french term). Something that isn't very common amongst writes, most "storylines" end at the highest point, the climax then the solution. But, there are a few writers who will end their story with the slight rise in the end. |
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09-07-2004, 06:32 AM | #11 | ||
Late Istar
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Boromir88 wrote:
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09-07-2004, 01:57 PM | #12 | ||||
Gibbering Gibbet
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The other aspect of the passage that I find compelling (and confusing – it’s usually one and the same thing) is the ambiguous way in which Frodo relates to his ‘failure’ at Weathertop. He offers us three different versions of what went wrong. First, he “regrets” his “foolishness”, implying that he made simple mistake, but one that he can learn from (like our favourite “fool of a Took” proves, one can overcome folly with greater wisdom and experience). At the same time, though, he “reproaches” – that is, he blames himself, not just “regretting” an unfortunate moment – for his “weakness of will.” So now it’s his fault at a more fundamental level; his will is weak. This is more disturbing than folly, for one can learn from one’s mistakes, but how can one strengthen one’s will? Possible, I suppose, but difficult. The last version is that he “obeyed” the “commanding wish” of the Witch King. So now it’s not entirely his fault, for he was being “commanded” by an outside force. So here we are with the old dilemma in our discussions of the Ring, presented in a compact form here, to be rehearsed at the Cracks of Doom in much more painful detail: is Frodo giving in to an outside force, is he failing in his own will, or is he making a mistake like anyone would? I think that the fact this is happening so early in his journeys bodes very badly for the success of the Quest! The chapter also strengthens the resonance between Frodo and Aragorn. Aragorn says: Quote:
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But, the chapter is not all dark, for it also hints at how Frodo will be able to succeed in his quest by highlighting the hobbitish nature that will let him destroy the Ring (or bring the Ring to the point where it can be destroyed). As they hobbits look at the stone that marks where the Dwarves hid the troll treasure: Quote:
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09-07-2004, 02:36 PM | #13 | |
Laconic Loreman
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Very well put.
Well put Fordhim I don't see how I can expand upon your points, for I think you covered it well. I will say about the whole "treasury came from robbers." It reminds me of a movie (that I can't really think of right now it might be Once upon a Time in the West), but it's where the person couldn't except "blood money" or "tainted money." Blood money, meaning that money that came from someone getting killed, or other illegal ways. In Bilbo's case this happens to be "tainted treasure" in which case he might not be able to live with that anymore and gives it up to Frodo. Which, as you say is a clue to the ending, Frodo we first see give up all that wealth of Bag End to his more hated relatives the Sackville-Bagginses, and then getting the ring to Mount Doom creating in oppurtunity for Frodo to be completely free of this "tainted treasure."
Also, here is a very pivotal part of the Book, the Wraiths are assailing Weathertop, so the Ring either stays in the hands of Frodo, or gets into the hands of Sauron's servants and ending all hope of destruction. Here we get to see the wraiths again failing to accomplish their mission, who knows why, maybe its because they aren't in possession of their 9 rings and aren't as powerful without them. Aiwendil said: Quote:
Last edited by Boromir88; 09-07-2004 at 02:42 PM. |
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09-08-2004, 12:58 PM | #14 |
Pilgrim Soul
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Healing
One thing that I have wondered for a while is that is if Aragorn's power in healing changes as the book progresses. When Frodo is injured, Aragorn's power is not enough. Is this just because Aragorn did not have the instrument necessary to remove the splinter in the wild? Or is it an extension of the idea of King as healer and that is only when Aragorn has effectively if not technically become king that he obtains his full power? I realise that the splinter was probably a major factor but the idea of a king having special healing powers was around for a long time in English history at least with Scrofula so I wonder how much was due to the actual kingship rather than the lineage.
The Black Breath also seems to have varied in its strength; Merry is relatively unscathed at Bree, here it is hard to tell how much Frodo is affected because of the physical injury, but it doesn't seem to be such a factor as it was for Eowyn and Merry at the Pelennor ( possible factors might be the greater power of the Witch King, proximity to Mordor, closer proximity to the Nazgul ie attacking him). Another thing that I have puzzled over may have have its answers in some of the earlier discussion about the "other dimension" experienced by the wraiths and Glorfindel. It is that when Glorfindel touches Frodo's wound and he feels some comfort. Now I had wondered whether this was merely an elvish quirk or something more specific relating to Glorfindel as a powerful elf lord. Now I see it could be a more direct counteracting of the dark power by the light. Finally on the subject of light: it hadn't really occured that Glorfindel revealed in his power might be something only Frodo might have seen. Gildor's company had a light about them if I remember correctly and I just assumed that making a mighty elf lord angry was just like increasing the wattage! But if it was something that only Frodo saw then it might tie into Gandalf's thoughts about Frodo in the next chapter, that he would become like a vessel of white light for those with the eyes to see it. I may be getting carried away here, but it seems to me that in a sense, this is Frodo's death. He has sustained an injury that will prevent him returning to his old life. He has crossed from the physical to the spiritual zone and although they leave their mark, none of the further injuries he will suffer kill him. There is the possible symbolism of the ford of Bruinen as either "crossing the river" in to death or as a kind of baptism into a new spiritual life. It may be far fetched but two other figures who are seen as vessels of white light are reborn - Glorfindel and Gandalf. To return to solid ground from speculation, I would say that I love the way that this chapter "tidies in" Gildor. I used to think that it was a bit callous of him to abandon Frodo although I suppose he may have expected Gandalf to be at Bree and may have"tipped off" the rangers too so it is nice to know that he got messages back to rivendell (I am still digesting "osane kenta" sp? - I had wondered about elvish telepathy beforebut thought that the elves could possibly have got back to Rivendell that much more quickly).
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09-08-2004, 01:13 PM | #15 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Fordim makes some important points (as usual). Its too easy to forget that Frodo is a hobbit from a non-violent culture (no hobbit of the Shire had ever killed another deliberately) who has never encountered physical violence in any form (unless we count Old Man Willow, but that was very ‘dreamlike). There have been warnings, & his room at the Prancing Pony had been ravaged, but now someone, something, had tried to kill him, & the wound he recieved was not even a normal stab wound, but one that could slowly kill him. Clearly he begins to suffer from post traumatic stress, which grows throughout this chapter. Beings are trying to kill him, simply because of the burden he carries. What we see are his attempts to make sense of it, blaming others, himself, circumstances.
What is clear is that he is the kind of person who will turn on himself & blame himself for circumstances outside his control, & we can see a foreshadowing of how he will end up. He makes himself into both a victim of circumstances & at the same time he sees himself as culpable - he has brought things on himself, its all his fault. He failed to act properly. We may feel at the end of the book almost like shaking Frodo & telling him not to blame himself, it wasn't his fault that he succumed to the power of the Ring, & he should forgive himself, but it seems even now that he's not capable of that - as far as he's concerned the terrrible things that happen to him are somehow 'deserved', he brings them on himself through his weakness & foolishness. How many times throughout his journey will he do this? He also has a tendency to blame himself for the failures of others, as if he's taking their 'sins' onto himself. At the end he can ask Sam to forgive Gollum, even forgive Gollum himself, but he can't forgive himself for the choice Gollum made, & can't bring himself to ask forgiveness for himself, because he seems to feel he's not worthy of it. The Shire has been saved - but not for him, because he doesn't deserve it. Whether we see Tolkien himself, the survivor of the Somme battle that took the lives of two out of his three closest friends is another mattter, but all along what we see in Frodo is 'survivor guilt'. One wonders if he even feels pity for the Ring-wraiths, seeing them as not responsible for their actions, being slaves of the Ring. Why can't he accept that other's make free choices, & are responsible for their actions, when he sees himself as responsible for everything he himself does? Its like he wants to save everyone else, but can't bring himself to see himself as worthy of being saved himself. He refuses to ride off on Asfaloth, because that would be to 'desert' his friends, its only when Glorfindel points out that if he stayed he'd put them in greater danger than if he goes, that he rides off. Later he won't even let Aragorn look at his wound after the orc stabs him in Moria, because he doesn't want any 'fuss' made. But has he always been that way, or is it some effect of the Ring on him, some isolating effect? Does it show some perverted sense of being in control, being the one who is responsible for everything? Mithalwen’s point about crossing the river symbolising death seem important - with each subsequent river crossing Frodo seems to move further & further ‘inward’, towards the source of the ‘magical’ core of Middle earth (as opposed to the ‘mystical’ core) Orodruin, the place where the magic came into being, the place that draws the ringbearers. (Random thoughts...) |
09-08-2004, 01:30 PM | #16 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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The Ring
Davem wrote:
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09-08-2004, 01:51 PM | #17 | |
A Mere Boggart
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Frodo's first reaction, that he may be maimed for life, rings a bell with me - it is the immediate sense of fear and regret. He then has nightmares, and imagines that Aragorn is one of the ringwaraiths; he is seeing the potential for trauma in other, harmless things. After his physical recovery, the trauma still remains to be brought to the surface under stressful circumstances, in situations which remind him of the attack, and on anniversaries. As davem says, hobbits are not a warlike people and would never expect to be injured by a sword in an unprovoked attack, so this life event naturally takes a devastating toll on Frodo. Although I don't think PTSD was recognised until relatively recently (correct me if I am wrong), it is said that the widespread shell-shock of WWI was basically PTSD, and I don't doubt that seeing the effect that this had was translated into Tolkien's own writing when he wished to decribe the effects of the attack on Frodo. |
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09-09-2004, 02:55 AM | #18 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Anyone interested in an analysis of Frodo's experience of PTSD/survivor guilt might want to read Karen Milos' essay 'Too Deeply Hurt:Understanding Frodo's Decision to Depart:
http://www.geocities.com/karynmilos/toodeeplyhurt.html |
09-09-2004, 06:27 AM | #19 |
A Mere Boggart
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That is an excellent article, davem. It confirms what I had been thinking about Frodo's suffering. What interests me is that at the end he feels he must sail to the Undying Lands, this is his only hope of recovery, yet away from ME there are no Undying Lands and we must seek our own recovery in other ways, one of which may be seeking solace in LOTR itself. Frodo finds no recovery that we can see (he may find this in the West, but we don't know this), and this is one of the saddest elements of the story, that we do not know if Frodo achieved 'closure' as the counsellors call it.
In the article it raised the poisonous words of Saruman who tells Frodo that there will be no rest for him - is this Saruman's wisdom or Saruman displaying the lack of understanding which sufferers experience from other people? I was also thinking about the Black Breath and whether this might be an emblem or symbol for depression. Certainly, I have heard people talk of depressive episodes as 'black moods' or 'black holes', and wondered if the Ringwaraiths' infliction of 'Black Breath' on others could be a symbol of people inflicting sorrow or heartache upon other people? |
09-09-2004, 07:45 AM | #20 | ||
Spirit of the Lonely Star
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Davem, Lalwende and all....
As a point of information, and to suggest other viewpoints on this essay.....there were two earlier threads on the Downs where this article was briefly discussed: Here. Also here... The link to the original article is broken, since it has moved to a new address, but this was definitely the essay under consideration. My own feelings, then and now, are more mixed than yours. I feel the author has done valuable work in pointing to the clear evidence that some of Frodo's feelings and actions can be better explained if we view these in terms of post traumatic stress disorder (and I would say survivor guilt as well). Moreover, what we've learned from Garth's book reinforces the possibility that Tolkien's World War I experiences and feelings crept into his depiction of Frodo. However, I am not willing to go as far as the essay suggests. I can't help but feel that she essentially portrays PTSD as the sole factor, a wholly negative one, in Frodo's decision to leave the Shire. This is too simplistic. All through the book, Tolkien delineated two sides of Frodo's persona: the "shadowed" side, which was growing under the influence of the Ring, but also the side inclined to good, that which led to mercy, his deepening relationship with Sam, and, most critically, the drive towards inner Elvish things (what we might term 'spirituality' or faerie depending on how we define things). The latter elements did not simply vanish with the failure at Sammath Naur. They may have been submerged under guilt and pain, but they still remained part of Frodo and, as such, had to play some role in his decision to leave the Shire. There was an element of longing in Frodo, longing for the Sea and what lay beyond, that not even the slopes of Mordor could totally erase. And this essay does not address or acknowledge this possibilty. ***************** I would voice similar caution when looking at this chapter. Davem - I think it's a gem of insight to view this chapter as a foretaste or modelling of what is to come at the end of the book. And part of what comes about is Frodo's inability to accept his limitations, instead focusing exclusively on how he has failed, according himself an importance no mortal should take on. In addition to what you've cited, I would add martyr complex to that list! Yet, having said that, I think we are in danger (like the author of the essay) in reducing Frodo to an equation, one in which we've left out essential parts. For example, you raised this question: Quote:
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I don't think so. I would rather accept the author's statement, as given through Gandalf's mouth: he describes Frodo as the 'finest' Hobbit in the Shire. In one Letter, JRRT also says that these particular Hobbits (including Frodo) were "extraordinarily gifted". By these terms, whatever is happening to Frodo is the effect of the Ring, rather than a prior condition. Admittedly, the Ring has a different impact on each individual: Frodo does not turn power hungry or end up killing someone in the way that Smeagol did. Those are not his potential shortcomings: they are instead the ones you list. The potential for his particular kind of corruption was always there in Frodo (in the same way that human limitations exist in all of us), but it is only with the Ring that we actually see it coming out and influencing his thoughts and behavior. My own reading of the chapter is somewhat different: The Ring is working on Frodo and you have pointed to instances where the Hobbit exhibits self doubt, something that will occur more than once. Yet, this is only a single piece of the puzzle. In this chapter, Tolkien continually stresses that it is a miracle Frodo even survived such a wound. It is the heaviness of the burden that is emphasized as much as Frodo's limitations. If Frodo had already been so heavily under the influence of PTSD or the Ring that it dominated his every inner thought, he would never have managed to get to Mount Doom. The doubt and self incrimination is there, but it must be read in the context of his whole personality and actions and the dire situation he was in. Strangely enough, my hesitations with the essay and even with stressing the inner self doubt of the chapter are similar to the way I feel about Peter Jackson's Frodo. Others on this thread have pointed out how Jackson changed the depiction of Frodo at Weathertop with sad results, but I think it is wider than that. In the movie, Frodo is portrayed almost from the start as a victim. The dilemma with Frodo is to keep the two sides in balance: victim he was, and with grave limitations and self doubt, but also an extraordinary Hobbit, likely the only one in Middle-earth who could have done what he did. It is the challenge of balancing these images that makes any interpretation of Frodo challengingly complex.
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09-09-2004, 09:28 AM | #21 |
Gibbering Gibbet
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D-words
Very interesting discussion of Frodo here. I think that I would like to add into the mix a different D-word from the two already being tossed around (doubt and depression) -- I would like to think about what happens to Frodo at the Ford in relation to despair.
Not despair in the sense of simple unhappiness, but despair as pertains to the loss of hope or faith. Hope is central to the story, and more often than not a character's moral fibre is defined largely in terms of how well he or she keeps hope or faith. Frodo in this chapter is having a very complex reaction/relation to hope that sets up the rest of his journey. On the one hand, after the attack at Weathertop he loses faith in himself insofar as he despairs of his own ability to resist the Ring. On the other hand, at the Ford he demnstrates a remarkable sense of hope insofar as he resists the Nazgul -- interestingly though, he does not have hope in his own abilty to resist them (his defiance is empty and he knows it, and just to make the point the Wraiths break his sword from a distance), but he obviously has hope that something will defeat the Nazgul. He is lost (to the Ring) but the cause is not. As will happen at the Cracks of Doom, this hope is justified as Frodo is saved -- well, no he isn't, Frodo is 'doomed' to the other d-words, doubt and depression, but the cause is not. Frodo's life is already over, but the quest will go on. So I think the ambivalence of this moment can be read in this way. On the one hand is the doubt and depression that is overcoming and claiming Frodo; on the other hand is the despair that he manages to keep at bay throughout his life. He is the victim of the former, and the heroic conqueror of the latter. In fact, his heroism only grows as his doubt and depression deepen (alliterative! ) -- the fact that he can plod on and hold to his faith, that he can not despair utterly of the quest despite the terrible toll it is exacting on his faith in himself is remarkable. Frodo is beginning in this chapter to learn the hard lesson that will guarantee the success of the quest -- that the success and well-being of the hero is not always the same as the success of the hero's mission.
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09-09-2004, 12:42 PM | #22 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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I wouldn't deny Child's points regarding Frodo, but I think we have to take Milos' points on board regarding Frodo's mental state, because I think they're valid. How much hope does Frodo actually have, & how much is he simply grasping at straws? To what extent is his decision to go based more on faith than on hope?
Clearly he doesn't see himself as naturally 'fortunate', a lucky soul. throughout he's taken chances on circumstances & on others around him, & he doesn't feel that he has been lucky in those chances. If Tolkien is correct in saying that at the end Frodo feels like a broken failure that must affect his expectations of the outcome of his journey West. In the end it will come down to how we read Frodo's acts & statements as to whether we see his taking Ship as the triumph of faith over hope, or vice versa. I am struck by his responses in this chapter to his wounding, because he expresses the extremes of both defiance & despair, hope & hopelessness. Yet the thing we have to bear in mind is that however he responds here he is responding in extremis - he doesn't have the luxury to stop & weigh up his situation calmly & objectively. He is dogmatic, judgemental & condemnatory - towards himself most of all. Once he is able to rest & make a decision he accepts the task of taking the Ring to the fire - but does he make that choice out of defiance or despair? Is there a point when he simply resigns himself to do the task at hand, because he believes it has been ordained that he will do it, &/or die in the attempt, but that either way he has no real say in the matter? I'm struck by something from an early draft of the meeting between Bingo & Gildor: Quote:
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09-09-2004, 02:03 PM | #23 | |||||||
Spirit of the Lonely Star
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Davem
As I look at the chapter again, I see more of what you're referring to. I do still think we have to perform a balancing act in terms of Frodo. But I want to suggest one more angle that we can perhaps use for a slightly different perspective.... I'll warn you in advance that this is going to be long. I didn't know how else to get all this down. Question: What if Frodo’s self blame is not an isolated response of one individual but part of a larger pattern, with a number of characters displaying uncharacteristically ‘negative’ feelings? First, there’s Sam. No one mentioned the unusual scene at the beginning of the chapter. After Frodo was wounded and Strider briefly disappeared, Tolkien say this: Quote:
By the time Strider kneels down, Sam could not have mistaken him for a wraith, yet the Ranger feels compelled to provide an extended explanation of who he is and his loyalties. Strider reassures Sam that he is not “in league with them”. This goes beyond seeing people in the dark. Just two paragraphs later, we get another description of Sam's behavior: “Sam choked with tears.” The Hobbit fears his friend can't resist the wraiths. Yet, in sticky situations even in Mordor, Sam doesn’t normally cry. Nor are these the “good” tears Gandalf later mentions. Given their distressing situation, the tears can only be destructive and futile. Aragorn sees the real reason for the tears and implores Sam: “Don’t despair.” Despair is the last characteristic I normally associate with Sam. Yet here, Sam can not control his negativity. We get another uncharacteristic instance of self-doubt by Merry when he announces to Strider: Quote:
The companions as a whole “dreaded the dark hours” and imagined that the wraiths were “waiting to make some ambush in a narrow place.” Even Strider, though generally resourceful, “seemed tired and heavy-hearted”. Thus, Frodo’s is not an isolated response, but part of a pattern. One obvious cause for all this is the fear instilled by the wraiths: it hangs over everything in the chapter. Yet there is a second force at work: the land itself. Here it is not a beneficent force, but presents obstacles and reinforce fears. At every step, Tolkien uses phrases like “withered leaves and grass”, “sullen hills”, “somber country of dark trees”, and “the hills began to shut them in.” Later in the book we will encounter two “wastelands” created by the active hands of living beings – Mordor and Isengaard ( potentially the Shire as well, only the bad guys didn’t get that far.) These are wastelands like those in the modern world: fertile lands where technology and war actively mar and destroy the land. In this chapter, the fellowship is passing through a different kind of wasteland. It is the one we see in medieval literature: the empty place where no people live. The medieval wasteland usually has the ability to corrupt spirit and defeat the body. Thus, Strider uses the actual term “wilderness” to describe the land they are going through. He clearly sees the shadow that lies over the land, the shadow that is influencing Frodo and Sam to respond in negative ways: Quote:
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Of course, it’s possible to read all this literally – having to do with geography and such – and to understand everyone’s fears as simply a reaction to bad conditions. But it seems like there is another level of meaning here as well: the land has influenced how they react and feel and they must get back to their true selves if they are ever to break through to Rivendell. The final moment of joy, when the sun comes flooding in, literally and figuratively, is when they see those old stone trolls. For the first time in the whole chapter, they are able to laugh: Quote:
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In this chapter, Tolkien continues to play with concepts like “history”, the “past” and ‘remembrance” It is Frodo’s memory of his own past—Bilbo’s deeds—that helps defeat the wasteland in his own head and enables him to laugh. Even more striking is how Tolkien describes the wasteland as “empty and forgetful”: Strider says that even the hills have forgotten what happened here. But Strider then reassures the Hobbits with a statement that shows his own strength as a Dunedain: Quote:
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09-09-2004, 02:51 PM | #24 | ||
Late Istar
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Two minor comments that can't pretend to fully address anything said above:
Davem wrote: Quote:
Child of the Seventh Age wrote: Quote:
He does not despair, but only because he can "postpone" it. Shippey cites this passage and argues that Sam is cheerful but not hopeful - one can be cheerful (outwardly agreeable, putting on a good face) with or without real inner hope or joy. |
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09-10-2004, 12:31 PM | #25 |
Illustrious Ulair
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The Wasteland is a strange image for Middle earth - where or what is the Grail? The Land is made waste because the Grail has been lost, yet in Middle earth there never was a Grail. There were the Silmarils, of course - did the loss of the Silmarils cause the Land to be laid waste - yet if so, how can it ever be healed, as they can never be won back. The Quest of the Silmarils ended with the First Age. I suppose the Trees could be the primal Grails - in a sense they do reapear at the end of LotR - the White (silver) Tree of Gondor & the Mallorn (gold) Tree of the Shire. Is that it? The Silmarillion proper begins with the Two Trees which are lost, bringing an end to the 'Golden Age', leading to Middle earth's slow, inevitable, descent into the Wasteland state, & it ends with the Two Trees of Middle earth in the Shire & Gondor.
To what extent was the Ring Quest a Grail Quest, as much as an anti-Grail Quest? To have both Aragorn's journey & Sam's end in the birth of new Trees seems symbolic. It is significant that the more one pays attention to Tolkien's statements about the Land, the more 'alive' it seems, the more a conscious participant in events. The very earth of the Old Forest, not just the trees, seemed to move & have a will of its own. It is perhaps the most intensely 'feminine' presence in the story - certainly, it seems to be the most permanently 'present' feminine presence. It has 'moods', which can be so powerful they overwhelm the individuals who move across its face. Its as if Middle earth herself is also aware of her woundedness & is seeking healing, & that healing is symbolised by the two Trees. |
09-10-2004, 12:55 PM | #26 | |
Late Istar
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Davem wrote:
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09-10-2004, 01:10 PM | #27 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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09-10-2004, 03:29 PM | #28 | |
Bittersweet Symphony
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09-10-2004, 04:30 PM | #29 | |
Master of the Secret Fire
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09-10-2004, 11:52 PM | #30 | ||||||
Scion of The Faithful
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My thoughts.
Sorry for breaking the flow of the topic, but such deep lore is not for me. Indeed, my thoughts would seem mundane and mediocre compared to previous posts.
But still . . . This time, I actually read the chapter, so I have better ideas. (Last week, a friend of mine loaned the Fellowship, so I was not able to read the chapter concerned.) Anywhen, here goes . . . Dim Echoes of the Next Journey There seems to be many parallels between Frodo’s journey to Rivendell and his quest to Mt. Doom. Here are some:
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Aragorn the Herb of Kings This is the first time we are introduced to athelas, and, during the course of the tale, it seems to describe something else . . . Quote:
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Just a Few Tidbits ~ Revenge of the Barrow-blade Can swords avenge their comrades? Looks like they can. The Witch-King broke Frodo’s sword in the Ford of Bruinen. Then Merry's sword struck him at the Pelennor Fields. First, we have talking swords, then emotional swords. Now avenging swords? ~ Trolls: if you’re quick you’ll see they’re false. It was a bit of a mind teaser. After Pippin saw the trolls in the clearing, Tolkien started the next paragraph with this sentence: Quote:
Glorfindel was one of the reasons I’m here poring over Middle-earth, instead of . . . gee, I don’t know where I’ll be. My sister kept on talking about a Glorfindel that was on that river, not Arwen as on the movie. That tidbit (plus a little conundrum concerning the location of Rivendell in relation to Mordor and Isengard) piqued me enough that, on the eve of New Year, 2003, I picked the Fellowship up and began reading it.
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09-11-2004, 02:56 AM | #31 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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As to Beren87's points - that would take a week's answer or none at all, so I'll have to come back to that later - though the more I think about it the more I wonder whether it wouldn't rather require a whole new thread. |
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09-11-2004, 08:20 AM | #32 | |
Late Istar
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Davem wrote:
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While there is some truth in calling nature a feminine presence, I'd be wary of taking that as a simple, unambiguous fact. |
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09-11-2004, 08:45 AM | #33 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Well, Tolkien follows the Norse tradition (shared by the Japanese, I believe) of making the Sun female & the Moon male, whereas most cultures saw them the other way round. Yet, I don't know that Aule's (admittedly strong) association with the materials of the earth makes the earth itself 'male'. Even in the cultures that had 'Smith' gods - like the Greek Hephaestos, & the Roman Vulcan - the earth itself was viewed as female. I still can't shake the idea of not just plants, but also the earth itself being symbolically female - maybe I've read too much mythology, & am influenced by that, but in this case I don't think I'm going against what I've said in the Canonicity thread, as I don't think Tolkien ever made a clear statement on the 'gender' of Arda.
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09-11-2004, 10:35 AM | #34 | |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
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I do want to clarify what I initially meant, since I was coming at this from a quite different angle. I did not mean for "wasteland" to typify Middle-earth as a whole, which your question above seems to suggest. Rather I was speaking of certain specific tracts of land. Leslie Ellen Jones in Myth and Middle Earth has written about Isengaard, Mordor, and the Shire of the Scouring as examples of the wasteland operating in Middle-earth. Her contention is that these represent not the medieval wastelands of the grail legend, but "modern" ones that have been created by the hand of war and technology. The prime ingredient of a wasteland for Tolkien, according to Jones, is for it to be stripped of trees. What struck me in reading this chapter is that the specific area through which Strider and crew are trudging in this chapter sound suspiciously like a wasteland, but one modelled on medieval rather than modern terms. I wasn't thinking about the wider ramifications of the grail legend per se. Of course, we can look back and know about the Percival of Chretien de Troyes, Eschebach's Parzifal and such. I was thinking not of this literary tradition, but of the pre-Christian myth that preceded it. Before any of the grail legend was set on paper, there were Celtic tales of myth and faerie that embodied the idea of the wasteland. (The literary embodiment of this earlier mythic tradition does appear in the Third Branch of the Mabinogi, but the legends themselves go back much deeper.) Unlike the grail legends which would have been accessible only to the literate and privileged, these faerie concepts of wasteland would have been widespread through the general populace. In this "popular" medieval concept, a wasteland is a general term for lands that are of no use to humans. You can't really farm or graze or even make your living by hunting there. The popular wasteland even has monstors or evil spirits. (There are hints of this in the land Gawaine must go through when he meets the Green Knight.) In the medieval mind, there is very little sense of the wilderness as a place of renewal and beauty which was so often voiced in the romantic era. The feeling is that the best land is domesticated and undomesticated land -- in effect, a wasteland --is a curse. I have other ideas on this, but I actually want to put them up as a separate thread so will wait to discuss them there.....
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09-11-2004, 10:59 AM | #35 |
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I think that there is something in the idea that Middle Earth is a 'feminine' presence. Tolkien was drawing on myths, legends and histories which did hold the earth itself to be female - this is where the phrase 'mother earth' springs from. Ancient cultures regarded the land as a mysterious female power, even going so far as to construct monuments celebrating this - one of the theories behind Silbury Hill is that it was a 'Mother' monument. The feminine was seen as the mysterious bringer forth of life - as an example of archaeological theories, barrows are said to have small openings to symbolise birth. Yes, it does not say explicitly that in ME the land is a feminine presence - but looking at what Tolkien drew upon, i would like to think that it is. But this has made me think...was Eru female?
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09-11-2004, 12:50 PM | #36 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
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Clearly, though, Tolkien sees the wounding of the Land as the result of a malicious act by evil forces, a result of their malice. I think we have to distinguish between wild & waste land, though. Often in the Irish legends the Wasteland is healed by the King's union or marriage with the Goddess of the Land, the figure of Sovereignty. The Otherworld is the realm of the Fairies, the Sidhe, who are out for revenge on men who have taken over their Land & driven them into the Hollow Hills. Alongside this runs the idea of the King who fails his people, or who is simply unlucky, or in the case of Vortigern, who betrays his people, & attempts to kill the young Merlin, who's blood shed on its foundations will (he is told) enable his tower to be built. In the Prophecies which follow Merlin predicts the wasting of the Land, & ultimately the 'wasting' of the Universe, as his vision extends as far as the ending of the Universe. Middle earth is the victim of malicious attacks by its inhabitants, & it suffers upheaval & destruction on a massive scale, & it seems to respond with an almost conscious yearning to be healed - its interesting how the 'good' characters seem to have a deep love for the land, a desire to heal it & make it whole - which Tolkien seems to explain by having them on some deep level 'aware' of Arda Unmarred - a sense that the world is not as it should be - which drives them to struggle & sacrifice themselves if necessary, to bring about its healing. This is an interesting theme for me, that it is not a mythology which offers as reward not an eternity in some Nirvana of light & peace, but in a world healed & made perfect, a physical realm. This is clearly a Christian vision - a New Heaven & a New Earth, but it touches on earlier, Pagan ideas of the sacredness of the Living Land. Tolkien never takes for granted the polluted, wounded Land - it is always a deep, profound WRONG, which must be fought, because a wounded Land wounds its inhabitants psychologically & physically - Sam, on seeing the Waste before Mordor feels physically sick. The woundedness of the Land is reflected in the woundedness of its inhabitants, & its healing brings about their own healing - symbolised in the Two Trees which begin & end the Legendarium. |
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09-11-2004, 05:11 PM | #37 | ||||||||
Bittersweet Symphony
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Feminine Powers
Thanks for answering my question, davem. It was not exactly asking why the idea of femininity as a whole, but "Why the Old Forest?" You explained it quite well; much of Middle-earth could be considered a feminine presence, although I agree with what Aiwendil said:
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Just another enforcement of the Sun's power (although perhaps it belongs more in the "Importance of Weather" thread): Quote:
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I find Nilpaurion's point about the "avenging" blade to be very interesting. Although Frodo hears a "shrill cry" when he strikes at the Witch-King, Aragorn later says that it was his cry of "O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!" which probably was its cause, and the blade did no harm. Why, then, was Merry's blade able to harm the wraith? As before, I would say that since Merry was not in the wraith world when he struck at the Witch-King, his blade could harm him, but since Frodo was, his sword had no effect on the powerful Nazgul. Wow, I just reread this... so many quotes! I hope I actually made a point or two somewhere in between them all! |
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09-12-2004, 02:06 PM | #38 |
Banshee of Camelot
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@ Encaitare: you tried to explain why Frodo's sword did no harm to the Nazgűl, whereas Merry could injure the witchking. I think that Frodo simply missed the wraith and only struck its coat. If he had struck him, his blade would have shrivelled and perished like Merry's did, for "all blades perish, that pierce that dreadful King" as Aragorn says.
There is hardly anything I can write, after those deep discussions! I agree with Child of the 7th age that there is more to Frodo than explained in the psychological analysis by Karyn Milos. (There was a discussion about that in Child's excellent thread "Frodo's sacrifice" about 2 years ago.) But this really belongs more to the end of the books. Overall I get the impression of how long and cumbersome the way to Rivendell is and how painfully slow the progress of the fellowship , although time is pressing. Very realistic really. (In the movie, Middle-earth somehow seems much smaller...) Also it strikes me that Frodo's condition deteriorates only slowly, with intermittent recoveries. When they meet up with Bilbo's trolls he can even laugh. I was glad for thas respite! And again Sam shows us another unexpected side. Even at the confrontation with the Nazgűl at the ford, Frodo has still enough pluck to face them and refuse their summons. (I understand that they had to rush the scenes in the movie, and even their omission of Glorfindel, but I can't forgive them the weak portrayal of Frodo! ) At my first reading I remember how thrilled I was at Glorfindel's appearance and how intrigued by the untranslated Elvish words! The green "elf-stone" that he left on the bridge must have been the same kind of jewel as the Elessar then ? I wonder if Frodo had heard about Luthien before, or did Strider's telling of that story leave such a deep impression that he called not only on Elbereth but on Luthien.
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09-12-2004, 02:22 PM | #39 | ||
Illusionary Holbytla
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09-12-2004, 06:24 PM | #40 |
Bittersweet Symphony
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Guinevere-- Yes, you're probably right, although I find it a little odd that he would "miss" the Witch-King... but then again, I have a habit of trying to make something out of nothing.
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