Proposed FoG Agenda

[Aiwendil]

I think we should have a definite plan before beginning to put together the text. What we have can be divided easily into three sections:

1. The 'later Tuor' from UT
2. The transition section (in the thread "A project: Revising the Fall of Gondolin, page 2).
3. The Lost Tales section, with copious revisions.

The revisions to 3 are scattered. This is, I think, a comprehensive list of them:

The Closing Portions, AP:RFG page 2
I think most of the points of contention here were resolved and taken up in the initial post, so unless anyone has any new concerns, these are good; the only exceptions are spots that are superceded by the later Balrog emendations. Also, we still need to come up with some way of working the Elessar into this section.

The Attack, AP:RFG page 2
No real problems were raised with these changes, so they can stand.

Maeglin's Treachary, AP:RFG page 2
Same as above

Tuor in Gondolin, AP:RFG page 2
Again, no problems.

Ambiguous Balrogs, Bye Bye Balrogs page 2

Omitting the Metal Monsters, Mechanical Dragons at the Fall of Gondolin?
There has been no consensus on this one yet, and we should definitely wait on it until we have a clear idea of what our final position is with regard to mechanical dragons.

Also, we have a couple of questions left mainly in the transition section, most importantly, the names of Gondolin.

I think the easiest way to do this would be to put the later Tuor, the transition, and the FoG section in a single post and then edit them to fit our corrections. It looks like my moderator-ship has been dropped since the move to the new board, so I'm afraid the actual edits will have to be the work of Lindil.

Perhaps we should collect the emendations in a single thread, so that we can finalize them?

[ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Antoine]

hello

I finished a complet revised version of FOG several weeks ago.

Becouse this project looks still alive, i hope that i could send this text somewhere ...

but where ?

i dont know if it s possible on this forum with problems of copyright.

thx
Antoine

[lindil]

My apologies for the delay Antoine, yes you may put your text here for public veiwing.
I would suggest [ if it is in fact the entire FoG as opposed to edits or emmendations] putting it up in several sections [ feel free to omit the UT section if you made no changes to that section at all].

If you prefer posting it to a smaller audience, email me at theryans@pacific.net and I will help you get into the 'members' only forum.

look forward to reading your edition,
lindil

[lindil]

well - day has come at last!

lindil has a new pc!
and boy does it scoot! W/ any luck I shall be able to get a bit more down now that i do not have to spend the majority of my time waiting for pages to appear.

anyway Aiwendil, a q. i have re: the next phase is wether we should keep stylistic editing seperate from textual cutting and pasting? meaning should the archaic BoLT language be left alone for the time being.

I have from the begining hoped to massage the text to bring it closer to the UT of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin. But perhaps you do not, or perhaps you feel it is appropriate also but think we should save it for the phase following textual editing.


I will eamil Ron re: the moderator biz, I think you were dropped during the switch from ezboard.

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Aiwendil]

I think we probably should keep stylistic editing separate for now. I'm torn between a desire to even out the discrepancy between UT and BoLT and a desire not to tamper with Tolkien's words. I think at the very least we should eliminate all use of the historical present, but probably not much more than that. However, I think this issue should be dealt with later, once the other changes are made.

About the moderator business: it's really not important and needn't matter unless I have to edit a lot of text. I'm still not completely sure how we're actually going to post the revision, so I don't know whether that'll be a problem.

Enjoy your new computer.

[lindil]

Aiwendil: you are right re: keeping the stylistic harmonization as a seperate process, I always want to jump the gun.

I concur that we should do a straight textual editing [ along with the tense=-shifting]first [although as for the sytlistic editing that is somethiong I would be inclined to go at alone if need be just to see whatwould happen] as you recommend.

I tried to cut and paste all of the transition posts from page 2 of the FoG thread but I kept getting a prompt saying that we had html parantheses. Feel free to try a similar post your self.


I had already emailed Ron [ I think it went through so you may notice your status and powers change.] Maybe you can give it a try.
-=-=-
My idea was to have a discussion thread based on the individual changes, and then have a seperate thread where the text would be posted w/out comment for folks to read.

I imagine that we will just have to post re-edited versions of each of the proposed changes [ due to html tags].

Maybe you have a streamlined idea ?

Any word from jallanite?

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Maédhros]

I don't know if this is the proper place to post this, or if this topic has been discussed and dealt with before.
From the Book of Lost Tales 2: The Fall of Gondolin

But the others, led by one Legolas Greenleaf of the house of the Tree, who knew all that plain by day or by dark, and was night-sighted, made much speed over the vale for all their weariness, and halted only after a great march.

Galdor and a band of men spear-armed went ahead, and Legolas was with them, whose eyes were like cats' for the dark, yet could they see further.
Behold, Galdor's men were beset in the dark suddenly by shapes leaping from behind rocks where they had lain hidden even from the glance of Legolas.

In the tale appears the keen-sighted Elf Legolas Greenleaf, first of the names of the Fellowship of the Ring to appear in my father's writings (see p. 217 on this earlier Legolas), followed by Gimli (an Elf) in the Tale of Tinúviel.

Legolas 'or Green-leaf was a man of the Tree, who led the exiles over Tumladin in the dark, being night-sighted, and he liveth still in Tol Eressëa named by the Eldar there Laiqalassë; but the book of Rúmil saith further hereon.'

I have 2 questions regarding this Legolas. First, can we have the name Legolas used here, I thought that elf names were supossed to be unique.
Second, why is it that in one quote Legolas is referred as an elf and in the other as a man. To have the sight that he has, definitely I would think that he was an elf.
I know that in the FOG, they refer the companies of the Houses (Glorfindel, Galdor) as men, is this going to be addressed at all.

[Tar Elenion]

There are numerous instances of Elves 're-using' names.
Legolas=elf because he was an Elf. Legolas=man because he was male.

[Aiwendil]

These are my comments on some small things in Antoine's text, originally posted in the private forum. I think they should be here instead, for open discussion. That text is in agreement with our emendations at almost every point, and I think we should use it as a provisional draft. These comments are just on the Fall of Gondolin section; I'll have to go back and look at the UT section again, though that should, of course, not present very many problems.

Miscellaneous comments

I've gone through the Fall of Gondolin section and made some notes:

FG-TG-04

{, and it was made of Gnome-steel overlaid with silver; but his helm was adorned with a device of metals and jewels like to two swan-wings, one on either side, and a swan's wing was wrought on his shield}

Use previously

This is an addition not found in our original emendations. Where do you intend now to place this description? Is the thinking that this helm is the one found by him at Vinyamar?

FG-TG-11

In these days came to pass the fulfilment of the time of the desire of the Valar and the hope of [the] Eldalië

This is really a stylistic change. While it's obviously a very minor point, I would prefer to leave out the article for the present.

FG-M-04

{Now it so chanced that not long after Meglin went to the hills for the getting of ore, … ... and he durst never again wander amid the mines lest he again fall in with the Orcs and be bidden once more to the terrors of the halls of darkness.}

Use later

This appears to be another change not found in our original emendations. I must admit that I can't see any reason to change the placement of this passage. What was your reasoning?

FG-C-03

Then said the king: [']Great is the fall of Gondolin['], and men shuddered, for such were the words of {Annon the prophet of old} [the prophecy of the North][,saying: ] <BoLT1'Great is the fall of the hidden rock!'>; but Tuor speaking wildly for ruth and love of the king cried: …

I am definitely inclined not to use this, but rather to go with jallanite's original revision. I think that this change, while very clever, is too fan-fictionalized for this project.

Here might be inserted a slightly modified version of the Fragment of the alliterative Lay of Eärendel found in The Lays of Beleriand (HoME 3), II Poems Early Abandoned. This would appear as a retrospective summary of the story from the actual fall to this point in the tale.

I'm personally inclined not to insert this. That fragment was intended as the beginning of an alliterative Lay of Earendil, not an independent song; and though it works as an independent song, I don't think we have the authority to use it.

[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[lindil]

FG-C-03
Then said the king: [']Great is the fall of Gondolin['], and men shuddered, for such were the words of {Annon the prophet of old} [the prophecy of the North][,saying: ] ; but Tuor speaking wildly for ruth and love of the king cried: …


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aiwendil:I am definitely inclined not to use this, but rather to go with jallanite's original revision. I think that this change, while very clever, is too fan-fictionalized for this project.

lindil: agreed, I have looked back over the post discussing this and while in prionciple it would seem to keep much of the old prophecy - it just does not fit.

as for the lay of Earendil fragment I will have to look at that before rendering an opinion.

And if anyone wants to pst Antoine's effort, all they need to do [ I think] is change over the bracketing system so that the forum does not read it as HTML code.

For all of the newer folks who have been asking about how they can help... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

And what better way to get to know the text intimately [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Aiwendil]

I'm copying the discussion of these comments that has gone on in the private forum to this thread, so that all can comment.

Antoine:

hi everybody
Some answers for Awendil ...

- for FG-TG-04 and FG-M-04
You use this part of the text for addition in some previous part.
For example : we use the description of the armor of Tuor immediatly when Tuor arrive.
I thinked that it s normal to delete the description that we find several paragraph after ...

- for the others things, i did all the corrections in a new version of my text.

You want i put the new version online ?


There is a special system of code for all the corrections,
I think it s can be good if the members valid (or not) each corrections.

After we can do a board or something like this.

I think it s better for know who is ok or not with each change.


One little thing, for finish, i m not a team, like Lindil said before; i m just a little french, who want to work for this fantastic project.


see you,
au revoir

Antoine

Aiwendil:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
for FG-TG-04 and FG-M-04
You use this part of the text for addition in some previous part.
For example : we use the description of the armor of Tuor immediatly when Tuor arrive.
I thinked that it s normal to delete the description that we find several paragraph after ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, I see now that an almost identical description of Tuor's armor appears in UT, and that the mention of Maeglin's capture is postponed. I agree with these changes.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
for the others things, i did all the corrections in a new version of my text.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wasn't demanding that they be change - I merely wanted to know why they were so.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it s can be good if the members valid (or not) each corrections.

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Definitely. I placed the same comments I placed here in the main forum also, in the "Proposed agenda" thread. I think all discussion of them should take place there, where we can have everyone's input.

I'll copy over this discussion to that forum.

[ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[Aiwendil]

I thought I'd revive this thread as a place for general discussion of what remains to be done on the Fall of Gondolin.

I can think of the following unresolved issues:

1. Rog
2. The two poems
3. The minute issue of "tallest of the Children of the World"
4. Where to put the chapter break
5. Is Gil-Galad at the Havens or on Balar?
6. The Elessar
7. The Oarni

All are found in part 5 except Rog and the "tallest" issue.

Is there anything else that ought to be added to the list?

Of course, the big one here is Rog. Numbers 4 and 5 don't necessarily need to be resolved at the moment, as they really have more to do with the Tale of Earendil.

Also, there are a few issues that were more or less settled but that we may wish to revisit once we have the revisions done:

1. Legolas - We had a vote on this and decided to keep the name, but to make the purely linguistic change to "Laegolas". But I know that Lindil was against this decision. There is an issue here regarding under what circumstances, if any, we can reopen an issue that was officially closed. I am on the one hand inclined to strive for a unanimous solution, but on the other hand I don't think we should be able to simply nullify the vote.

2. Mechanical Dragons - We initially decided to drop them, then later reinstated them, both without an official vote. I'm not inclined to alter our last decision, but we should at least note that if we want to third-guess ourselves, now's probably the time.
(By the way - are there any technical details in the most recent round of mechanical dragon revisions that are still not closed?)

3. Was the Way of Escape permanently closed? - There was an informal decision that it was not. But again, we should at least take a minute and ponder this, and make sure we all agree with that decision.

Numbers 2 and 3 are decisions that were never formally voted upon. Perhaps we should do that now.

[Maédhros]

Issues:
1. Rog: I don't think that we can reach an unanimous compromise. I'm of the opinion that the character and his name should be retained. I know that lindil is against this but, I think that it would be a shame to delete all of that part of the battle and that the name Rog does appear in the Quenta account.
I should make clear that, Rog does not kill any Balrog in our account.

2. The two poems: I personally think that it would be a shame to not use them in our version. As Squatter has already posted, some of the magic of the original Horns of Ylmir is lost with our emendations, and if no suitable corrections are found, I think it would be better to leave it in our appendix and not the main text.
Regarding the Lay of Eärendel, I think that we might find some way to retain it in such a way as to use it as our beginning of Eärendil's chapter so that we preserve the fact that it was to be the beginning of it.

3. The minute issue of "tallest of the Children of the World": I have presented a proposal in which both differing views can be retained. Keep the main text as Aiwendil wants and with a foonote indicate that his brother Argon was taller than Turgon.

4. Is Gil-Galad at the Havens or on Balar?: I have been thinking at this for a long time. The problem that I see it is as follows, in the account of the Parentage of Gil Galad

Finrod left his wife in Valinor and had no children in exile. Angrod's son was Artaresto, who was beloved by Finrod and escaped when Angrod was slain, and dwelt with Finrod. Finrod made him his 'steward' and he succeeded him in Nargothrond. His Sindarin name was Rodreth (altered to Orodreth because of his love of the mountains .. ..... His children were Finduilas and Artanáro = Rodnor later called Gil-galad. (Their mother was a Sindarin lady of the North. She called her son Gil-galad.) Rodnor Gil-galad escaped and eventually came to Sirion's Mouth and was King of the Ñoldor there.

The problem with Gil-Galad being in Sirion this early in the story is that what was his rôle in the battle with the sons of Fëanor?
What I would propose is the following:

Have Gil-Galad escaped from the Fall of Nargothrond and for him to go first to the Isle of Balar and after the War of Wrath, he came to Sirion's Mouth and became King of the Ñoldor. Notice the use of the word eventually. This to me opens the possiblity of his going first to Balar and then to Siron's Mouth.

6 and 7. The Elessar and The Oarni: I already made my point on that in part 5 of the discussion of the Fog.
My thoughts on the Elessar are almost exaclty those as Aiwendil's excecpt that I would be vague as to who made it. (Because Enerdhil was to be discarded by JRRT.)
I would keep the Oarni, though they seem outdated and discontinued, that does not necessarily means that they were abandoned.

[Finwe]

Or how about have Gil-galad "move" to Sirion after the Sons of Fëanor attack, not after the War of Wrath? While he was on the Isle of Balar, he could have believed that Sirion would be completely safe. After hearing about the Fall of Gondolin and after the attack by the Sons of Fëanor, he could have shifted to Sirion so that he would be closer "to the action" and have a better chance of defending his people.

[Maédhros]

The only problem with that Finwë is that, would Gil-Galad being in Sirion wouldn't that mean that he would have to engage Maedhros and Maglor in order to free his people from the ruthless sons of Fëanor.
I would try to avoid any confrontation between Gil-Galad and the sons of Fëanor.

[Finwe]

If he got to Sirion after their attack, he wouldn't have to confront them. As one of the last scions of Finwë, it would have been his "duty" to try and protect his people. He probably didn't realize that Sirion would be attacked. Naturally, afterwards, he would shift there in case future attacks occurred.

[Findegil]

I think we take the mouth of Sirion to literarily here. From the Grey Annals we learn that Círdan already established a foothold at Lisgardh when he established the refuge on the isle of Balar.

So it is quiet natural than any fugitives that joined Círdan would first come to that haven at the mouth of Sirion.

I think that Círdan was a lord of the Sindar and did not claim the lord-ship over the Noldor joining his people. When Gil-Galad came to Círdan after the fall of Nargothrond he was recognised by the Noldor of Círdans people as the noblest of blood among them and so taken as King of the Noldor in the company of Círdan. Since Círdan had ever been in friendship with the Noldor of Nargothrond, we can assume that he and Gil-Galad ruled the people in a friendly cooperation.

It is further said, that Tour and Earendil when they moved to Sirions mouth "joined their folk to the slender company of Elwing daughter of Dior, that had fled thither little while before."

That there is no mention of Círdans people already dwelling at the moth for a long time has the simple reason that we are dealing with old text were Círdan and his Falathrim had not been introduced.
Also we learn later that Earendil was Lord of the People of the havens at Sirons mouth. We cannot reconcile that if at the same time Gil-Galad is the King of Noldor at Sirions mouth. After the attack of the Feanorians the havens were destroyed, so Gil-Galad could not be the King of the Noldor at Sirions moth later.

So how can we deal with that now? We can take the Grey Annals and make Círdans Haven at Lisgardh only a small "foothold" to enable the passage of fugitives only not much populated.
That allows us to take the first real settlement at the heavens to be done by Elwings people joined soon after by the fugitives of Gondolin.

Than we must take the note about Gil-Galad in The Shiboleth less literarily to mean the area of Sirions mouth since the most of the People (Sindar under Círdan and Noldor under Gil-Galad after he came there) dwelt upon the isle of Balar, with Gil-Galad joining Círdan upon the isle.
It is to be mentioned that at the time of the Fall of Gondolin most Noldor that had fled to the south were probably people of the house of Finarfin (e.g. Arminas and Gelmir that brought the message of Ulmo to Nargothrond). The people of Fingon would have been in a big part rescued by Turgon when he withdraw from the Nirneath, or could we imagine the rest of host of Fingon taken refuge in Gondolin when the women and children were left behind in Hithlum? (The people of Annael lived fare to the west and so were not "rescued".) And the Feanorians were gathered in Eastbeleriand even after Himring had fallen. So only the Elves of Dorthonion and Nargothrond would have taken refuge with Círdan whom they knew as a friend of their former Lords (Finrod and Orordreth).

This situation changed when Tuor and his people came to the moth of Sirion. They were a big folk not only small group. The Noldor among them were mostly of the house of Fingolfin, and they brought a family of their own leaders with them: Idirl and Tour with their son Earendil. But they did establish themselves at the heavens and did not sail to the isle of Balar. They were clearly in very friendly terms with Círdan, since it is told in the late writing Círdan that "Earendil was 'apprenticed' to Círdan, who aided him in the building of Vingilot." But I do not think that they accepted Gil-Galad as their king (not jet, when Earendil was lost at the sea and the folk was diminished by the attack of the Feanorinas, this would be other wise).

I would say it is best to stick to Christopher Tolkiens Idea in so fare as to place Gil-Galad with Círdan on the Isle of Balar and coming to late to the battle of the heavens.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Good to see you, Finwe.

I think Finwe and Maedhros both have interesting ideas, but I'm hesitant to move in that direction. We seem to be inventing a bit much if we say that he went to Balar then returned to the mouths of Sirion.

I like Findegil's suggestion, though I don't really agree on this one point:

But I do not think that they accepted Gil-Galad as their king (not jet, when Earendil was lost at the sea and the folk was diminished by the attack of the Feanorinas, this would be other wise).

My understanding is that, while Earendil was the lord of the people living at the havens, Gil-Galad was at this point the overall "King of the Noldor" - he had inherited the title that Maedhros passed on to Fingolfin, which had then gone to Fingon and then to Turgon. In other words, I intepret the note as meaning "king of the Noldor, at Sirion's mouths" rather than "king of those Noldor that dwelt at Sirion's mouths".

But that has little bearing on our revisions. I agree with Findegil that we can retain the scenario where Gil-Galad lives on Balar and, with Cirdan, comes too late to the aid of the people of Gondolin and Doriath.

[Findegil]

By right Gil-Galad might have been High King of all Noldor in Middle-Earth. But even Fingon and Turgon had not wealded the same authority as had Fingolfin done. And in the end even Fingolfin was not able to move the Noldor to an attack upon Morgoth prior to the Bargolach. But it might be right that he claimed the Titel and was accepted by the People. At least it makes our editing much easier to use your idea.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

It's true that Fingon and Turgon never wielded the same influence as Fingolfin. But, as you point out, even Fingolfin - though he was clearly the "King of all the Noldor" in title - could not organize an assault on Angband when he wished. This indicates that a lack of absolute authority need not be taken as an indication that Gil-Galad did not claim the title of King of the Noldor.

Christopher Tolkien's reading also seems to be that Gil-Galad inherited the "High Kingship", by the way; from the '77: "And when tidings came to Balar of the fall of Gondolin and the death of Turgon, Ereinion Gil-galad son of Fingon was named High King of thie Noldor in Middle-earth."

[Maédhros]

Minor nitpicking from my part:

{Ereinion} [Rodnor] Gil-galad son of Orodreth, who had escaped the fall of Nargothrond and come to Sirion's Mouth, was [named] King of the Noldor there. He was styled Gil-galad, Star of Radiance, because his helm and mail, and his shield overlaid with silver and set with a device of white stars, shone from afar like a star in sunlight or mooonlight and could be seen by Elvish eyes at a great distance if he stood upon a height. FG-C-27

In our discussion of names Name Changes?, we discussed that the name Orodreth was outdated and that it should be changed to later Sindarin in the form of Arothir. Should we have a vote on this or do we all agree that it is right to do so.

Regarding our other points:

3. The minute issue of "tallest of the Children of the World"

This has been solved.

6. The Elessar

Needing only Findegil approval to be finalized.

7. The Oarni

Needing only Findegil approval to be finalized.

5. Is Gil-Galad at the Havens or on Balar?

I'm willing to compromise and to accept Findegil and Aiwendil's proposal.

[Aiwendil]

It still feels very strange to me to change Orodreth>Arothir. But if it must be done . . .

Still, I think we should each make a careful check of HoMe, to make sure that "Orodreth" is not used later than the note. For that note is the only place I recall "Arothir" ever appearing.

Presuming that Findegil is agreeabale on the aforementioned points, that leaves only:

1. Rog
2. The poems
4. The chapter break

[Maédhros]

Originally posted by Aiwendil
It still feels very strange to me to change Orodreth>Arothir. But if it must be done . . .
Still, I think we should each make a careful check of HoMe, to make sure that "Orodreth" is not used later than the note. For that note is the only place I recall "Arothir" ever appearing.

I think that before we make that change, we must be absolutely sure that it was Tolkien's last word. The thing about Orodreth's name goes a long way back to the Tale of Turambar.

As for the chapter break:
I propose that we finish with this chapter:

§ 125 Yet now those exiles of Gondolin dwelt at the mouth of Sirion by the waves of the Great Sea [, and joined their folk to the slender company of Elwing daughter of Dior, that had fled thither little while before]. There they take the name of Lothrim, the people of the flower, for Gondolindrim is a name too sore to their hearts; and fair among the Lothrim Eärendil grows in [the Isle of Sirion in] the [snow-white stone] house of his father, and the great tale of Tuor is come to its waning.'

That way we can begin our next chapter as in the Quenta Noldorinwa:

Yet by Sirion and the sea there grew up an elven folk, the gleanings of Gondolin and Doriath[.]The Silmaril brought blessing upon them and Idril wore the Elessar upon her breast and they were healed, and they multiplied; and from Balar the mariners of Círdan came among them, and they took to the waves and {the making of fair ships}the building of ships and built a haven, dwelling ever nigh unto the shores of Arvernien, upon the delta amid the waters under the shadow of Ulmo's hand. Many fugitives gathered unto them. FG-C-28

I'm still thinking that there might be a way as to introduce the Lay of Eärendel in the beginning of the next chapter in order to use in the narrative.
As for the Horns of Ylmir, I would hope that there is a way as to salvage it in order to use it in the main narrative, but if that is to be done, unfortunately that evades my skill with the english language. Perhaps in the Appendix of our work it could be included.

Regarding Rog:
I'm of the opinion that we should both keep his name and his deeds in our main narrative. I know that lindil was voiced his opinion against this, but I feel that we would loose a lot of the story if we keep him out. As a matter of fact, I don't think we will be perfectly satisfied in this point. What I suggest is that we keep him, and if we find in the future some evidence that invalidates the presence of Rog, we could remove him. Until such an observation, I would keep him as we have.

[Aiwendil]

Maedhros wrote:

I think that before we make that change, we must be absolutely sure that it was Tolkien's last word. The thing about Orodreth's name goes a long way back to the Tale of Turambar.

Exactly. It's one of the only names I can think of that was so well entrenched and then, apparently, altered in just a single note.

I think that your idea for the chapter break is good, not least because we preserve the beginning point of the Tale of Earendil from Q30.

I'm still thinking that there might be a way as to introduce the Lay of Eärendel in the beginning of the next chapter in order to use in the narrative.
As for the Horns of Ylmir, I would hope that there is a way as to salvage it in order to use it in the main narrative

I agree regarding both poems. I can see, perhaps, opening the Earendil chapter with the alliterative fragment.

"The Horns of Ulmo" is trickier. Squatter is quite correct about the damage done by the loss of symmetry. I don't think that it cripples the poem, but it does make it weaker. I will look at the poem when I get time and see if I can think of some way to salvage it.

[Antoine]

Hi,


1. Rog

Really, this is very difficult for me to argument a choice here.
For esthetic preference I prefer Rôg.

2. The two poems

About Horns of Ylmir
I like the new introduction of this poem that agree with "the land of willows".
The new corrections looks good for me.
The exchange of died and cease come from my edition of Home (English version). But anyway the sentance looks good now !

Just a little detail, there is the word Gods in the sentance

When the world reeled in the tumult as the Great Gods tore the Earth

Following another changer, we need to use the word "Lords"

About Lay of Earendil
See point 4

3. The minute issue of "tallest of the Children of the World"

tallest of {all} [living] Children of the World, save thingol

I disagree with this change.

It's look for me like tallest of all except this ... and that ... and we don't count this one ...

I have no better solution but I don't like this result

4. Where to put the chapter break

In my private work of Revised Silmarillion ( a work about all the Revised Silmarillion arrangement - but not about text details) I have always thinking that the Fog break is :

Yet now those exiles of Gondolin dwelt at the mouth of Sirion by the waves of the Great Sea [, and joined their folk to the slender company of Elwing daughter of Dior, that had fled thither little while before]. There they take the name of Lothrim, the people of the flower, for Gondolindrim is a name too sore to their hearts; and fair among the Lothrim Eärendil grows in [the Isle of Sirion in] the [snow-white stone] house of his father, and the great tale of Tuor is come to its waning.'

So it makes happy that every body enjoy this new end.

About the insert of the Lay, it look good for me.

About the changes, nothing ... I agree.

5. Is Gil-Galad at the Havens or on Balar?
6. The Elessar
7. The Oarni

The last 3 points, I agree but in the futur, when we will work the last chapter, I think it will be good to reopen the problems.



8. About Mechanical Dragons.

6 months after, I answer about that ... sorry it was incredible busy time for me ( and specialy a wedding in the end of august 2003 that was the discussion period and I miss this part ... thx maedhros!)

I agree with the new vision - amazing work Fingedil.



9. About publishing .... on the board first

A new PDF version is ready, checked by Maedhros.
I hope I forgot nothing.
A good thing can be a ultimate checking by active members. I can send by email a PDF or a word document.
Fingedil, Lindil, Aiwendil PM me on my personnal mail (cf my account).

[Aiwendil]

It's great to see you, Antoine.

Really, this is very difficult for me to argument a choice here.
For esthetic preference I prefer Rôg.

It is a very difficult issue. I'm not certain that the addition of a circumflex is sufficiently justified. The trouble is that there's not direct linguistic evidence from later than LT that pertains to the name.

I like the new introduction of this poem that agree with "the land of willows".

Do you mean the idea of retaining the beginning of the poem and changing it to present tense? Otherwise the introduction must be deleted, as far as I can see. But changing it to present tense is no easy matter.

Just a little detail, there is the word Gods in the sentance

Good catch. I don't necessarily think that every use of "gods" must be expunged (it is said in the Valaquenta that men have called them gods). But I see no particular reason to keep it here. I suggest:

When the world reeled in the tumult as the {Great Gods} [Valar] tore the Earth

It seems to be the simplest substitution, and it also preserves the meter exactly.

I disagree with this change.

It's look for me like tallest of all except this ... and that ... and we don't count this one ...

Yes, this was my concern as well. But I think that "tallest of all the [living] Children of the World, save Thingol" is significantly better than "tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol [and Argon]".

Still, I think you have a point. Perhaps we should just delete the sentence.

The last 3 points, I agree but in the futur, when we will work the last chapter, I think it will be good to reopen the problems.

Yes, these three are really concerned more with Earendil than with Tuor.

A new PDF version is ready, checked by Maedhros.
I hope I forgot nothing.
A good thing can be a ultimate checking by active members. I can send by email a PDF or a word document.
Fingedil, Lindil, Aiwendil PM me on my personnal mail (cf my account).

Maybe we should wait until these last few minor issues are tied up, then review it (and, I think, send it to some of the semi-active or former members of the project for review).

[Alkanoonion]

maybe we should wait until these last few minor issues are tied up, then review it (and, I think, send it to some of the semi-active or former members of the project for review

Please I would love to review what has been done.

[Findegil]

Nice to see you post again Antione. And again you make the marvellous editing work we all have clearly sometimes whished for.

Okay lets go through the List of Aiwendil:

1. Rog: I am strongly against the deletion of the character. But what is about the name? I have looked up the Quenya Lexicon, but as with Oarni it did not show any information beyond the appendix LT1. So we have "Rog" as the last form in the Tale and Q30. Or we can go back to "Rôg" as the original form in the Tale. "Rôg" seems for most of us to sound better, but "Rog" has a little bit more authority, since it is later. I am at a lose to decide anything, in that matter.

2. The Poems: The Horns of Ylmir are currently under discussion. We should give that development a bit of time. Earendel should definitely be discussed later, when we work out the chapter about Eärendils voyage.
Over all I think we could work in the moment with out both poems and add them in if we find good solutions for the emendations.

3. The tall Turgon: I would like to make at least clear that he was the tallest of all the assembly in the place of the king in Gondolin when Tuor arrived. In the Tale Tour is describe as being greater than all the Noldor, so it seems Tolkien imagined him to be tall. But here we have the statement that says that Turgon was taller than Tour and I think we should provide that information.

5. Is Gil-Galad at the Havens or on Balar?: I think we have an agreement here.

6. The Elessar: I can live with Maédhros last version of an ominous jewel-smith, but what is about stating that it was made in Gondolin:

<LQ2 There shining fountains played, and in the courts of Turgon stood images of the Trees of old, which Turgon himself wrought with elven-craft; and the Tree which he made of gold was named Glingal, and the Tree whose flowers he made of silver was named Belthil, and the light which sprang from them filled all the ways of the city. But fairer than all the wonders of Gondolin was Idril Turgon's daughter, she that was called Celebrindal the Silver-foot for the whiteness of her unshod feet, but her hair was as the gold of Laurelin ere the coming of Melkor.
<EL [There was in Gondolin {a ... he }made this thing[ called Elessar],[ a jewel within which the clear light of the sun {should be} [was] imprisoned [and it was]{, but the jewel should be} green as leaves] and even the Noldor marvelled at it. For it is said that those who looked through this stone saw things that were withered or burned healed again or as they were in the grace of their youth, and that the hands of one who held it brought to all that they touched healing from hurt. This gem {Enerdhil gave}[was given] to Idril the King's daughter, and she wore it upon her breast] >

7. The Oarni: I think we have an agreement in that point.

Issues to be thought of again:
1. Laegolas: I have not been a member when this was discussed. (May be that was luckily for me and the project, since I hold a completely contrary view of that issue than any one else in the discussion.) The Solution you found after so much hard discussion is acceptable for me. (Since it allows still anything the reader wants it to mean.) So I say: Let's not open again that Box of Pandora!

2. The mechanical monsters: I have joined mostly too push you to the acceptance of the mechanical monsters. So I do not fear to discuss it again. But I am happy, that most of the members seems to agree with my proposal.

3. Was the Way of Escape permanently closed? Could we imagine that Turgon, an immortal being, planed to live for ever in Gondolin, what ever happened in the outside world? I don't think so.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: Woh, what a speed in the project! Have I missed something? Never mind, do not stop to think about it! Let's go on with it!

[Aiwendil]

Alkanoonion wrote:

Please I would love to review what has been done.

Say no more. As soon as we finish the final emendations and Antoine works his usual miracles, we'll send it to you. But that doesn't mean you can't chime in on those last few issues we're discussing.

Findegil wrote:

1. Rog: I am strongly against the deletion of the character. But what is about the name? I have looked up the Quenya Lexicon, but as with Oarni it did not show any information beyond the appendix LT1. So we have "Rog" as the last form in the Tale and Q30. Or we can go back to "Rôg" as the original form in the Tale. "Rôg" seems for most of us to sound better, but "Rog" has a little bit more authority, since it is later. I am at a lose to decide anything, in that matter.

I guess that, on close consideration, I would lean toward not using the circumflex, although I do personally think it looks better that way.

3. The tall Turgon: I would like to make at least clear that he was the tallest of all the assembly in the place of the king in Gondolin when Tuor arrived. In the Tale Tour is describe as being greater than all the Noldor, so it seems Tolkien imagined him to be tall. But here we have the statement that says that Turgon was taller than Tour and I think we should provide that information.

I see your point. I could go for "tallest of the [living] Children of the World, save Thingol". But Antoine's concern is not unjustified. Antoine, can you come up with a better emendation?

6. The Elessar: I can live with Maédhros last version of an ominous jewel-smith

As I think about it, I do start to see more problems with Enerdhil. It's a tricky issue because while we usually deal with old text A contradicted by B (where we must update A to fit B), here we have old text A replaced by B, which is then contradicted by C. The question then is whether C justifies going back to A.

But as for the specific emendation needed in FG-C-31, I think we are agreed.

Woh, what a speed in the project!

You can say that again! It's interesting that the project crawls along so slowly for months at a time, then moves so far in just a few days. I'll bet there's an interesting sociology paper in all this . . .

[Maédhros]

Apart from the emendations that need to be made to the Horns of Ylmir to make it suitable to fit our main narrative, are there any other points that need to be addressed to finalize our Fog?
The Lay of Eärendel will be in the next chapter so it is not part of our Fog.

As a side note, I have been working with Antoine in revising the file that has all of our emendations and we are very close to finishing it.

[Findegil]

As fare as I cna see only the problem of "Turgon the tallest of ..." is still underdiscussion. Antione had rejected our emendation and I still wich for some sort of statment that he is taller than anbody else around. But as Antione I did not have a nice solution for that at hand.
In the end we are talking about an editorial addition. If we can not make it fit in nicely it must be left out. So if nothing comes up that satisfying all of us we must leaf the statment simply out.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

I think that those are the only two remaining issues.

Antoine, do you have another proposal for the "tallest" bit? I think that Findegil makes a good case that we should include some reference to Turgon being tall. At least "talling of the living children of the World, save Thingol" is canonically sound.

[Maédhros]

Regarding the Tallest Issue:
From Unfinished Tales: Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin

A description of Gondolin was to follow, of the stairs up to its high platform, and its great gate; of the mounds (this word is uncertain) of mallorns, birches, and evergreen trees; of the Place of the Fountain, the King's tower on a pillared arcade, the King's house, and the banner of Fingolfin. Now Turgon himself would appear, "tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol," with a white and gold sword in a ruel-bone (ivory) sheath, and welcome Tuor. Maeglin would be seen standing on the right of the throne, and Idril the King's daughter seated on the left; and Tuor would speak the message of Ulmo either "in the hearing of all" or "in council-chamber."

I think that for us it would be very important to try and retain as much as we can from the brief description that JRRT made that was to follow his late Tuor.
To me, the part about Turgon being tall was to especify that although Tuor was taller than most of the Gondolindrim, but Turgon was indeed taller than him.
Our editorial additon of using living seems to me as Aiwendil has said, canonically correct and we retain JRRT words with only one editorial addition.
I had also thought about using a statement that Turgon was the tallest in the chamber when Tuor entered but that scenario seemed ackward to me.
I can think of several times when we have used other more intrusive emendations in our work.

I would stick with Aiwendil's idea.

As far as the emendations of the Horns of Ulmo poem, I will take some time to review your ideas and try to come up with some.
I do not think that it is essential that we finish our discussion of the poem in order to have our draft, we can state in our draft that in this place goes an emended poem, which can be revised later.

[Aiwendil]

To be honest, I'd prefer to finish work on the poem for the draft. We're going to have to deal with anyway, so we might as well do it now.

I think the real issue with the poem is the damage done by leaving it out vs. the damage done by fabricating a piece of one line, and emending other places.