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#1 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15
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First let me apologise for my poor English. I’m a fifteen-year-old dutch boy, so I haven’t had too much time to practise, but please try to understand it.
I came to write this essay/question/topic, when I was reading a book on lotr I had bought a few weeks before, “the lord of the rings: weapons and warfare”. I don’t know if this book is generally know ( I heard about it only a few months before ), but it’s a book in which the weapons and fighting styles of the different peoples of middle-earth are shown, and also those of the most important hero’s of the film. The book is based on the films, so many things do not match with the books, but when I was reading the entry “gimli”, I found there the following thing: ( speaking about his friendship with legolas )”this remarkable bond was unique among elves and dwarves during the whole of the third age, and it earned gimli, at the end of his days, the previously unheard-of gift of being allowed to sail west across the sea to the undying lands, to dwell in eternal peace with his friend” ( for the people who own the book: page 55 ) had always assumed that this ( immortality in aman ) was so, because I thought of the undying lands as a place where nobody died. But the funny thing is, that the same book made me think about it once more. When I read the entry “legolas”, I found there the following sentence:”…, and eventually he took ship from the grey havens, taking with him the now frail dwarf who had been his bravest comrade and his truest friend” ( page 113 ). When I saw the word frail I began to think. Of course it’s logical that gimli was frail now, after his long life. But I wondered what would become of this frail body in the undying lands ( and of course this is the same with Bilbo. Still I think that the opinions about Bilbo and Frodo are more made up, and most believe that they’re there still), and then I changed my opinion: it isn’t at all sure that they lived forever. in the silmarillion to king tar-atanamir is said:”for it is not the land of manwë that makes its peoples deathless, but the deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land”( page 264 ). Also I remembered the discussion of the valar about Eärendil ( page 249 ), where this, in other words, is repeated. So it isn’t really probable that they still live there…. Any mortals who, reported, ever came to aman where or sent back, or became elves ( at least, before the war of the ring ). Also it would be a little strange if every elf could take a mortal friend with him, who would then not die. Also they would then get the doom of the elves ( not being able to leave the circles of the world, see page 264 of the sil again ). I know that I don’t have everything I should have ( I don’t have the HoMe edition, for example ), and I just don’t know what to think, so please comment. |
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#2 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Washington, D. C., USA
Posts: 299
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Welcome to the 'Downs, Blokdog!
Just being in the undying lands does not grant immortality. Even the Valar cannot undo the Gift of Iluvatar. I always got the impression that mortals in Valinor were granted the right to choose the time of their own death, like the kings of Numenor could. There is a quote, which I cannot find right now, that seems to imply that Frodo would have plenty of time to find healing and peace before passing beyond the circles of the world. Quote:
Again, welcome to the Barrow Downs!
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But all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door. |
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#3 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15
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ok, but in some cases the valar cán change the doom of mortality ( think of Eärendil, Tuor. ( and beren and Luthien, but they only got another lifespan )), and if you read all those books in which is said that they're still alive, even sam, I wonder how they know... but of course even when frodo's and sam's doom wás changed, being ringbearers, we do not yet know that of gimli. he had not really accomplished something above the accomplishments of the other, not sailing, members of the fellowship. so, if I could understand if mandos would have changed the doom of frodo ( and eventually sam, I still think that he actually accomplished the most. only he was able to give the ring back to frodo of free will, after he had freed him for cirith ungol ), I wonder what happened to gimli.
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#4 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,506
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I think its universally agreed among scholars that Frodo, Sam and Gimli would have died while in Aman. For Frodo, sailing to the West was not a promise of immortality but a respite to heal his wounds and find peace. In Sam and Gimli's case, even Tolkien is dubious as to whether or not they arrived in Aman (at least, he does not say they did without a sly uncertainty, as if he got the news second-hand).
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#5 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15
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oke, thank you very much!
still, I've read a few books to find info on this, and in at least two was said that they still lived. in the tolkien companion by j.e.a. tyler was said "in that far green country they still live", and in another book already mentioned in my first post is said about gimli that he lived eternal with his friend. also, talking about gimli, there are, I think, three possibillities: * one: legolas took gimli with him and he lived forever in aman * two: he took gimli, who died in aman * three: he didn't at all take him to aman, in which case he anyway died. the third reason seems unlikely, seeing the strange, but very great friendship between them, but I think that if you know that someone you really like will die in a country where nobody else dies, will make you think twice over such a decision. so, if he, for that reason, didn't take him with him, I think we can say that he would have died there. about frodo: I can see a link between Eärendil and Frodo. Eärendil was granted ( the choice for ) immortality because he tried to save the world. frodo, of course did the same ( and sam for a part too ), so if mandos changed the gift for Eärendil, it seems logical to me that he did the same to frodo ( and eventually sam ). do you btw understand my english? Last edited by Blokdog; 08-16-2008 at 01:29 AM. Reason: uncomplete |
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#6 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 733
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The Valar cannot take away the "Gift of Men"; only Eru can, and as far as we know for certain, He may have done so for Tuor, and whether or not He did is never made clear. Earendil was literally half-Elven, and thus became the first person subject to the choice of the half-Elven, to be either of the mortal Men or immortal Elves; Elwing's blood was somewhat more mixed, having that of Elves, Men, and a Maia, but again, she was offered the choice. In his letters, Tolkien makes it very clear that Frodo would not have become immortal by going to Aman; he was being allowed what he called a "purgatorial" grace to spend the remainder of his life in the bliss of what was left of Arda Unmarred, so that he could find healing and peace before his death. At the moment, I don't remember precisely where he said it (I believe it was either in the Letters or in the HoME books), but it was believed that because of the presence of the Powers, a mortal in Aman would wither and die even more quickly, like a moth near a flame. So the erroneous belief that Sauron planted in the minds of the Numenoreans, that they could become immortal by seizing Aman, was a lie, designed to bring about their destruction, not grant them immortality. Which, I think, is very much in keeping with Sauron's personality.
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Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill |
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#7 | |||||
Banshee of Camelot
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 5,830
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Here is the exact quote from Tolkien's letters, that Ibri was referring to:
from letter # 325: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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Yes! "wish-fulfilment dreams" we spin to cheat our timid hearts, and ugly Fact defeat! Last edited by Guinevere; 08-16-2008 at 06:16 PM. Reason: found yet another quote |
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#8 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Quote:
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#9 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15
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thank you all very much. I see I have indeed not considered many things, and think that the matter is clear now. can anyone please tell me where I can find these letters?
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#10 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Washington, D. C., USA
Posts: 299
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Originally posted by Blokdog:
Quote:
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But all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door. |
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#11 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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They're published in a book– called, unsurprisingly, The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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