Geography Grilling

[Lostgaeriel]

Over the river and through the woods...
Climb every mountain; ford every stream...
Somewhere over the rainbow...
Take me to the river...

Name, in chronological order, the bodies of water that Frodo crossed in LOTR. (There and back again and beyond.)

Bonus points for modes of transportation! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Telchar]

what a question [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

The Bywater (bridge)
The Brandywine (ferry)
Hoarwell (bridge)
Loudwater (ford)
The Gate stream of Moria (ford or wading across)
The Silverlode (foot)
The Nimrodel (foot)
The Anduin (boat)
Morgulduin (bridge)
Anduin (boat)
Isen (ford)
Glsnduin (ford)
Loudwater (ford)
Hoarwell (bridge)
Brandywine (bridge)
The Western Ocean (boat)

Probably missed something

[Lostgaeriel]

Nassty, isn't it? Serves me right to post a question I've not finished finding the answer to. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

But I know you've missed 2 between the Water and the Brandywine. OK, 1 of those wasn't named, but the other was. And there are 2 more bodies of water (not necessarily rivers/streams) he crossed between the Brandywine and Hoarwell.

While you think of those, I'll check the journey from Rivendell onward. **panicked**

[Telchar]

Would it be the 'Stok-stream' or something like that? Im not sure if they ever crossed the Withywindle but they did cross the midgewater marches

[Lostgaeriel]

Yes, Telchar, Frodo did wade across the Stock-brook. And before that he crossed an unnamed stream where it dived under the road near the fall (probably a tributary of The Water) on the morning of September 24.
And you got the Midgewater Marshes - great!
And you're right - they didn't cross the Withywindle.

And there is another watery crossing before he arrives at The Prancing Pony. Think of a dike/channel/moat.

This is very hard - I'm scanning the whole book - ughh! (I'm avoiding looking up the detailed route maps on the web.) I guess hills and mountain ranges would have been easier!

[ January 14, 2002: Message edited by: Lostgaeriel ]

[Lostgaeriel]

Hey Telchar! Give up? Want me to post my reckoning of Frodo's water-crossings? I finally finished slogging thru the book looking for bodies of water. But it was good to read the descriptions again and fix the images in my mind.

It's a long list. I've got 37 entries - all mentioned or implied in the book and JRRT's original maps in LOTR. I'd like it if you would check it over - I'm sure I've missed or misunderstood something.

I don't think Frodo crossed Morgulduin - he started toward the bridge toward Minas Morgul but Sam and Gollum stopped him.

[Telchar]

just post the list, and well look at it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Lostgaeriel]

OK. This is what I've got. I'd love to discuss. Thanks! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

And, Telchar you get to ask the next question!!! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

(Page #s from Unwin/Unicorn One Volume paperback 1983 3rd Ed. - 1985 reprint)

• 1.The Water – on foot – narrow plank bridge – p 84
• 2.Across the stream - near their first camp – near the fall - where it dived under the road – p 86
• 3.The Stock-brook –waded through it – it was a muddy stream just past the elves’ shelter which was in the hills above Woodhall – cutting across their shortcut – p 102-103
• 4.Brandywine – Bucklebury Ferry – p 113
• 5.The dike surrounding Bree – the East Road crossed by a causeway – at the Greenway Crossing - the North Road was called the Greenway - on pony – p 166
• 6.Midgewater Marshes – on foot – p 198-199
• 7.River Hoarwell aka Mitheithel – Last Bridge – p 216 – on pony Bill
• 8.Ford of Bruinen – elf-horse, Asfaloth
• 9.Bruinen south/east fork to Rivendell – implied - see map
• 10.Bruinen south/east fork from Rivendell – see map – crossed the bridge – p 298 (also – same bridge homeward bound – p1023)
• 11.At the West gate of Moria - a narrow creek barred their way at the northmost corner of the pool – walked/waded thru it – p319
• 12.Many streams and wells in Moria – at least one – could hear noise of water churning up as they leapt over a gap – p329
• 13.The water in the depths of the chasm under the Durin’s Bridge of Khazad-dûm – p 347 & 523
• 14.Nimrodel - waded across – p 357
• 15.Celebrant/Silverlode – rope bridge – p 365
• 16.The fosse (ditch/moat) surrounding Caras Galadhon in Lothlórien – on foot over the white bridge – in-bound – p 373
• 17.The fosse (ditch/moat) surrounding Caras Galadhon in Lothlórien – on foot over the white bridge – out-bound – p 391
• 18.Camp on the right/west arm of Anduin on the western shore of Tol Brandir/Tindrock – cross East branch of Anduin as it divides at Tol Brandir/Tind– just south of? OR at south end of lake Nen Hithoel, above falls of Rauros on Anduin – JRRT & CJRT detail maps not clear - by boat – p 427 (descrip pp 393, 388)
• 19.Dead Marshes – p 656
• 20.Crossed the stream in Ithilien where they had the rabbbit stew and met Faramir – becomes the river in the narrow gorge that flows over the Window of the Sunset/Henneth Annûn - p 695 (more info pp 699-700)
• 21.That same stream in Ithilien? – implied? - if Frodo and Sam were taken by Eagle from Mount Doom to Aragorn at The Morannon? If so, no crossing. Or directly to Cormallen to wait for Aragorn? If so, yes they did cross the stream. Ithilien/the Field of Cormallen – near Henneth Annûn. KEY: Did Aragron tend Frodo & Sam on the Battle Plain where he was on March 25? More likely in Ithilien. More wholesome. pp 987, 993
• 22.Anduin from Cair Andros to Osgiliath by ship – p 993
• 23.Mering Stream/Boundary Stream in Rohan in the Firien Wood – CJRT’s detail map & in JRRT’s map – Unfinished Tales index - pony
• 24.Snowbourn River - CJRT’s detail map & in JRRT’s map - see also Unfinished Tales index
• 25.Isen – at the ford? - p 1015 or p 1018 - pony Strider
• 26.Glanduin/Swanfleet River ford - p 1021 (– border between Dunland & Hollin – p 1019) - pony Strider
• 27.Bridge over south branch of Bruinen to Rivendell – p 1023 - pony Strider
• 28.Bridge over south branch of Bruinen from Rivendell – implied - pony Strider
• 29.Bruinen – ford – from Rivendell - p 1026 - pony Strider
• 30.River Hoarwell/Mitheithel – Last Bridge – implied - pony Strider
• 31.The dike surrounding Bree – the East Road crossed by a causeway - on pony Strider – implied
• 32.Brandywine Bridge - pony Strider – p 1033, 1035-6
• 33.The Water – bridge - pony Strider - home Bag End – p 1054
• 34.The Water – bridge – implied - to Michael Delving – p 1059 – release prisoners from Lockholes
• 35.The Water – bridge – implied – home again – no other travels noted except to the Grey Havens
• 36.The Water – bridge – implied – took the Stock Road towards the Woody End to the Green Hills – p 1065
• 37.The Sea – by ship – p 1068

[Telchar]

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] MUCHO IMPRESSO [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Entry 5. and 31. might be a little far out - a dike is not obviosly a body of water???
but concerning dikes here are some more entrys:

Soon they came into well-tended fields and meadows: there were hedges and gates and dikes for drainage. Everything seemed quiet and peaceful, just an ordinary corner of the Shire.

‘I will!’ said he, and drove out of the gate. There was now no breath of wind stirring; the night was still and quiet, and a chill was in the air. They went without lights and took it slowly. After a mile or two the lane came to an end, crossing a deep dike, and climbing a short slope up on to the high-banked causeway.
Maggot got down and took a good look either way, north and south, but nothing could be seen in the darkness, and there was not a sound in the still air. Thin strands of river-mist were hanging above the dikes, and crawling over the fields.

The dark line they had seen was not a line of trees but a line of bushes growing on the edge of a deep dike with a steep wall on the further side. Tom said that it had once been the boundary of a kingdom, but a very long lime ago. He seemed to remember something sad about it, and would not say much.
They climbed down and out of the dike and through a gap in the wall, and then Tom turned due north,....

On that side, running in more than half a circle from the hill and back to it, there was a deep dike with a thick hedge on the inner side. Over this the Road crossed by a causeway; but where it pierced the hedge it was barred by a great gate.

NO MENTION OF WATER

Along the crest of the ridge the hobbits could see what looked to be the remains of green-grown walls and dikes, and in the clefts there still stood the ruins of old works of stone.

...and the heirs of Valandil removed and dwelt at Fornost on the high North Downs, and that now too is desolate. Men call it Deadmen’s Dike, and they fear to tread there.

...they were amazed at the change that had come over the Ents. It seemed now as sudden as the bursting of a flood that had long been held back by a dike.

‘I see a white stream that comes down from the snows,’ he said. ‘Where it issues from the shadow of the vale a green hill rises upon the east. A dike and mighty wall and thorny fence encircle it. Within there rise the roofs of houses; and in the midst, set upon a green terrace, there stands aloft a great hall of Men.

..and flowed then in a gully through the midst of a wide green gore, sloping gently down from Helm’s Gate to Helm’s Dike. Thence it fell into the Deeping-coomb..

‘Not far ahead now lies Helm’s Dike, an ancient trench and rampart scored across the coomb, two furlongs below Helm’s Gate. There we can turn and give battle.’
‘Nay, we are too few to defend the Dike,’ said Théoden. ‘It is a mile long or more, and the breach in it is wide.’

...winding through the gloom, converging towards the line of the broad road that led from the City-gate to Osgiliath.
‘The enemy,’ men murmured. ‘The dike is down. Here they come pouring through the breaches! And they carry torches, it seems. Where are our own folk?’

Now silently the host of Rohan moved forward into the field of Gondor, pouring in slowly but steadily, like the rising tide through breaches in a dike that men have thought secure.

(I love that sentence)

He turned Shadowfax off the Road, and the great horse leaped the green dike that here ran beside it; and then at a cry from Gandalf he was gone, racing towards the Barrow-downs like a wind from the North.

[Telchar]

Name the beacon of Gondor that lay furthest to the east and furthest to the West.

[Lostgaeriel]

Hi Telchar!

VERY IMPRESSIVE RESEARCH FROM YOU. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
(Which I've come to expect.)

I suppose a dike isn't a body of water and neither is a fosse. They are constructions that may or may not contain or hold back water. I misunderstood the meanings. So I checked my dictionary, again, which defines a dike as two things: 1) a long wall or embankment to keep back water and prevent flooding or 2) a ditch for draining water from land. And fosse is defined as a long ditch or a moat or a trench, especially in fortification. I guess I figured if there was a bridge or causeway - a road across low or wet ground - there might be water in the dike or fosse. But if a road goes over wet ground that doesn't count, does it?

So not only is the dike in Bree suspect, so is the fosse surrounding Caras Galadhon in Lothlórien. Numbers 5, 31, 16, 17.

And I'm embarrassed that I missed the ride with Farmer Maggot and Bombadil guiding them back to the Road. I didn't even skim those to check for water or dikes and ditches - I just assumed!!!

Gosh! I hadn't realized how many locations in Middle-Earth have dikes. Thanks for helping me get a better handle on the definitions of these words. Paints a clearer picture of the settings in the story.

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Lostgaeriel ]

[Lostgaeriel]

OK. The beacons of Gondor.

From East to West:
Amon Dîn (furthest East)
Eilenach
Nardol
Erelas
Min-Rimmon
Calenhad
Halifirien (furthest West)

[Telchar]

Yes that is correct.

Comments on the word 'fosse'

A fosse is (as I understand it) a deep trench filled with water, to prevent an enemy to assult a castle, town or fortress.
In the description of the fosse around Caras Caladhon it is said that it has green brinks which indicates that it was indeed filled with water - so I guess that you are correct on that point [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Furthermore, the word 'fos' is the Norwegian word for a swift river of wich they indeed have many in Norway.
And in Danish water may 'fosse' out of a hole in a pipe or out of tap, or through a breech in a dike.
Much like 'pour' in english.

Go on please [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Lostgaeriel]

Name and/or describe the geography of 3 places where a hobbit or hobbits fell asleep in the sunshine.

Thanks for the additional info on the word 'fosse'. I'm afraid that in my part of the world we don't have moats, fossae, dikes, etc. so they're a 'foreign' concept to me. And I haven't travelled enough, obviously. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Curuquendil]

Hope nobody minds if I jump in...
[list=1][*] In the Old Forest, against the trunk of Old Man Willow[*] On the grassy hill in the Barrow Downs[*] In Ithilien (Sam & Frodo) after eating stewed rabbit[/list=a]

[Lostgaeriel]

Welcome and well met, Curuquendil! Correct! Glad you joined in. Ask us one.

[Curuquendil]

Thank you! I am enjoying my visits here immensely!

Now for my question:

List the streams, rivers & tributaries which meet up with the River Anduin at one point. (In existence during the Third Age, to avoid any confusion.)

[The Mirrorball Man]

Originally posted by Curuquendil:
List the streams, rivers & tributaries which meet up with the River Anduin at one point. (In existence during the Third Age, to avoid any confusion.)

I will probably forget one or two, but I'll try...

The Langwell
The Greylin
The Rhimdath
The Ninglor
The Celebrant
The Limlight
The Entwash
The Erui
The Sirith
The Poros

Close enough?

[Curuquendil]

VERY CLOSE! There are 10 total & all are correct except for Rhimdath (although I will admit that I don't see Rhimdath anywhere on maps or in the indices) If anyone else can verify that Rhimdath is correct, I'll "stand corrected"!

[Telchar]

River Rhimdath shows on the 'First Map' published in HoME 7 'The Treason of Isengard' I cant recall seeing the name on the later LoTR maps made by CRT. Pretty cool that somebody found it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Curuquendil]

Thanks for the confirmation Telchar! In that case, I will consider the answer given as correct!

[Watcher in the Water]

The week is up... someone ask as i cant think of one myself just now.

[Telchar]

What was Bamfurlong?

[Mat_Heathertoes]

Bamfurlong was the name of Farmer Maggot's farmstead

[Telchar]

Correct [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Mat_Heathertoes]

What was the 'elvish' name of the "Sun Rising Hill" in the far east of Arda before the Changing Of The World at the end of the Second Age?

[Lindolirian]

Ah Ha! I finally found it! Kalorme is the "sun rising hill".

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Lindolirian ]

[Mat_Heathertoes]

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Way to go .. your turn ..

[Lindolirian]

Where is the "House of 100 Chimneys"?

[Mat_Heathertoes]

Why that be located in Tol Eressea, in Tavrobel and was the home of Gilfanon, Lord of Tavrobel

[Lindolirian]

Very good Mat-Heathertoes! I thought it would take longer than that, but its your turn now!

[Mat_Heathertoes]

Where was the land of Fragrant Trees ?

[Bruce MacCulloch]

Nísimaldar, the Fragrant Trees was another name for Numenor.

[Mat_Heathertoes]

Indeed it was Bruce, take it away!

[Bruce MacCulloch]

What is the Hill of Anwar called in Lord of the Rings and what was significant about the hill?

[Mat_Heathertoes]

Halifirien 'Holy Mountain' in the tongue of the Rohirrim, was its name and its particular importance was that it once contained the Tomb of Elendil

[Bruce MacCulloch]

The floor is yours, Matt!

[Mat_Heathertoes]

where in Arda,is the dark harbour of the North? and what is its name? .. clue - Mandos spoke his Prophecy of the North there .....

[Lindolirian]

"the northern confines of the Guarded Realm, upon the borders of Araman, which were mountainous and cold." Here the Noldor saw the figure of Mandos and he gave his Prophecy of the North

[Mat_Heathertoes]

Yes, that's right but in one of Christopher Tolkiens associated Histories, it's actual name is given ... curious enough mentioned as the mooring-place of the black ship of Nienna which drew the souls of men onwards to their new home beyond the circles of Arda....