Gandalf on Tom Bombadil

[Mumriken]

Just saw this quote on the top of this site and it had me thinking.

He is a moss-gatherer, and I have been a stone doomed to rolling. But my rolling days are ending, and now we shall have much to say to one another.

So Gandalf is a rolling stone and Tom is a stone with tons of moss on it. Hmmm there are several ways to interpret this. First a stone must be pushed to start rolling, so the valas pushed Gandalf down the hill. Bombadil is a moss gatherer, the big question is what is the moss? Does it just mean he hasn't been rolling or could it mean anything else? Also why isn't Bombadil rolling? Could the valas not make him roll?

Are there any benefits to being a rolling stone and a stone gathering moss. Is there a possability that Tolkien by using this analogy gives us hints as to what Bombadil are or how he stand in relation to Gandalf?

I'm looking forward to see how you interpret the moss and the rolling stone analogy thing.

(What is the moss)
(Differences between rolling/mossy stone)
(Why isn't Tom rolling)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

So Gandalf is a rolling stone and Tom is a stone with tons of moss on it. Hmmm there are several ways to interpret this. First a stone must be pushed to start rolling, so the valas pushed Gandalf down the hill. Bombadil is a moss gatherer, the big question is what is the moss? Does it just mean he hasn't been rolling or could it mean anything else? Also why isn't Bombadil rolling? Could the valas not make him roll?

My own opinion of that quote is that it merely contrasts the difference between the "watcher", Bombadil, and the "mover", Gandalf.

The latter had a specific task to perform in Middle-earth. Bombadil, however, seems to have no obvious goals or mission, and was content to sit on the sidelines and do his own thing.

The questions of Bombadil, his nature and his purpose, are much older than this forum. I know there are many who don't want to pigeonhole Tom into fitting into Arda's structure, but I think he was an Ainu who came out of the Void separately from the Valar, and did not participate in their activities. There is precedence for it, as Ungoliant seems to have been of the same sort. It was said that she was believed to have come "from the darkness that lies about Arda" (the Void). She answered to no one in Arda, and just did as she pleased. Seems very similar to Bombadil.

Perhaps both did have their own purpose in the thought of Ilúvatar, but what that might have been is barest conjecture.

[Mumriken]

Sounds reasonable, so Tom could actually be greater than Morgoth and Manwe. Since he is one of the unknown ainus like Ungoliant the valas did not know of him and his power. I really like the idea of these outcasts, great powers that doesn't fit in. However Tom can't be greater than illuvatar so for what reason did illuvatar create Tom other than to sing arda into existence? Yeah I know these questions have been asked before, I'm just bored and it's so fun to read your complex replies.

He was there before the dark lord entered, that means for whatever reason he sneaked in before the other great ainur did. What did he do in a empty arda?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

My own opinion of that quote is that it merely contrasts the difference between the "watcher", Bombadil, and the "mover", Gandalf.

The latter had a specific task to perform in Middle-earth. Bombadil, however, seems to have no obvious goals or mission, and was content to sit on the sidelines and do his own thing.

That's a very neat interpretation. Mine was always influenced by the Russian translation, where a native expression is used that has a clear connotation, no riddles. For me it was always as simple as: Gandalf travelled, Tom stayed home. In the most literal physical sense. But I like your watcher/mover and mission idea.

[Mumriken]

I think there is more to this than just Gandalf being on the move and Tom staying in his forest. First of all, all rolling stones have had to be put into motion by someone, for the stone to be rolling it also needs to be round. (Shaped) A mossy stone isn't round because if it was it would easily move around and there would be no time for moss to grow on it. Also why isn't anyone pushing the mossy stone around? Maybe it's simply too large for them to push.

Now will moss start growing on Gandalf as well after he stops rolling around? What exactly could the moss mean, maybe it's knowledge. It's important to remember that moss only grows in dark, damp places. One could imagine dark and, damp to mean hidden places. Maybe Tom is:

Big
Knowledgeable
Hidden
Unmoveable
Unshaped

While Gandalf is:

Smaller
Younger
Known
Easily moved around by others
Not his own master

This suggests to me that Tom and Gandalf are not of the same kind. Tom must be a greater spirit. I agree with Inziladun, it's likely that Tom is a void creature not that different from Ungoliant yet maybe older. He is definitely up there with the great valas in terms of power. However if this is true one still needs to ask oneself why Tom was put into Arda in the first place.

He seems to care for the trees and for the earth. Maybe one could think of him as a gardener in Arda. Someone to keep the weeds and forest fires away? He probably took the shape of a larger fat hobbit in order to remain mossy and hidden.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

This suggests to me that Tom and Gandalf are not of the same kind. Tom must be a greater spirit. I agree with Inziladun, it's likely that Tom is a void creature not that different from Ungoliant yet maybe older. He is definitely up there with the great valas in terms of power. However if this is true one still needs to ask oneself why Tom was put into Arda in the first place.

He seems to care for the trees and for the earth. Maybe one could think of him as a gardener in Arda. Someone to keep the weeds and forest fires away? He probably took the shape of a larger fat hobbit in order to remain mossy and hidden.

Well, the obvious point is that no one put Tom anywhere. No one is his master. That's the major point. He went there cause he felt like it, Ilúvatar didn't object, and no one else could object.

I've also been amused to consider whether Tom is an aspect or avatar of Ilúvatar, in which case Middle Earth was created so Tom could shack up with Goldberry.

There is a fairly great spread of personalities among the Valar and Ainur. I'm not sure that distinctly different personalities is grounds for placing entities in different orders. There is certainly a greater divergence in personality between Tom and Ungoliant than Tom and Gandalf.

I see his purpose more as living than being a caretaker. From the perspective of elves and men, the Valar are masters of various aspects. One might be the hunter, another the mistress of nature. Among the wizards, Gandalf does fire while Radagast does beasts. Tom might call himself master, but he would be master of all and nothing. He orders things somewhat within the territory he sets for himself, but not in an organized structured way.

Specifically, he is not a lord, not a ruler. The wizards were forbidden from confronting Sauron with force or fear, and excepting Saruman didn't rule large numbers of others, setting themselves up as heads of state. Tom took this to an even greater extent. With the possible exception of Goldberry, no one reports to or takes orders from Tom. He will solve little problems as he stumbles into them, but he is by no means dedicating his life to making things better for others.

Where Gandalf is.

Another thing of note, however strong Tom is, however often he says he is his own master, he seems to be subject to 'chance meetings'. In Middle Earth, the plans of the Valar or Ilúvatar are sometimes moved along by semi-random coincidence. Gandalf just happening to meet Thorin Oakenshield in Bree might be the classic example, triggering the events of The Hobbit. Certain people just happened to show up at Rivendell for Elrond's council. Very convenient, this subtle aspect of Middle Earth Magic, as one can do deus ex machina plot advances, implausible stuff happening, and blame it on the gods. But, anyway, just by coincidence, Tom wandered by just as Frodo needed him.

Random stuff. Some of the above might have been thought through by Tolkien, some of it not. It's hard to guess which.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by blantyr

Another thing of note, however strong Tom is, however often he says he is his own master, he seems to be subject to 'chance meetings'. In Middle Earth, the plans of the Valar or Ilúvatar are sometimes moved along by semi-random coincidence. Gandalf just happening to meet Thorin Oakenshield in Bree might be the classic example, triggering the events of The Hobbit. Certain people just happened to show up at Rivendell for Elrond's council. Very convenient, this subtle aspect of Middle Earth Magic, as one can do deus ex machina plot advances, implausible stuff happening, and blame it on the gods. But, anyway, just by coincidence, Tom wandered by just as Frodo needed him.

Well, Bombadil himself said of his meeting with the hobbits (quoting from memory), that "just chance brought me then, if chance you call it. It was no plan of mine, though I was waiting for you".

That the encounter was "no plan of his", strongly suggests that there was indeed a deliberate intention for Bombadil to be at that place at that time, and he recognized the fact. That leads back to the idea that Tom, Ungoliant, and every being in Arda (or without!) did serve a Purpose, unclear though it might be for a very long time.

[Legolas]

Gandalf's comments about Tom are some of my favorite! Tom's character and purpose is fascinating, and contrary to so much else we see in the legendarium.

It might be tempting to expand the metaphor, but I don't think it was intended beyond it's simple, apparent meaning: Gandalf has been a constant wanderer while Tom a fellow quite content to stay in his own small corner of the world. More to do with mentality and purpose than it does origins and power.

Tom might be presented as greater than men, elves, etc. but I have not found anything to suggest that he is a being of such power on the order of Manwë. Much of his peculiar stature comes not from power, abilities, or active strength, but from his aloofness and resilience. For instance, he is not able to overpower the Ring; he is only immune because he is wholly unconcerned with anything it could offer him.

There are some revealing statements at the Council of Elrond that should be taken into consideration. Gandalf corrects Erestor's suggestion that Tom had a power over the Ring; Glorfindel and Galdor assert that Tom could not withstand Sauron.

'Could we not still send messages to him and obtain his help?' asked Erestor. 'It seems that he has a power even over the Ring.'

'No, I should not put it so,' said Gandalf. 'Say rather that the Ring has no power over him. He is his own master. But he cannot alter the Ring itself, nor break its power over others.'

'But in any case,' said Glorfindel, 'to send the Ring to him would only postpone the day of evil. He is far away. We could not now take it back to him, unguessed, unmarked by any spy. And even if we could, soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.'

'I know little of Iarwain save the name,' said Galdor; 'but Glorfindel, I think, is right. Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself. And yet we see that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills. What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Cirdan at the Havens, or in Lórien. But have they the strength, have we here the strength to withstand the Enemy, the coming of Sauron at the last, when all else is overthrown?'

[Mumriken]

'No, I should not put it so,' said Gandalf. 'Say rather that the Ring has no power over him. He is his own master. But he cannot alter the Ring itself, nor break its power over others.'

Would a vala be able to break it's will over others? I don't think one should take what the elves says too seriously. They are after all just children in comparison to Gandalf. But then Gandalf says he is his own master, which once again suggests he is no maia. Because all maias were under some of the valas. So would any vala be able to break the power of the ring?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legolas

Tom might be presented as greater than men, elves, etc. but I have not found anything to suggest that he is a being of such power on the order of Manwë. Much of his peculiar stature comes not from power, abilities, or active strength, but from his aloofness and resilience. For instance, he is not able to overpower the Ring; he is only immune because he is wholly unconcerned with anything it could offer him.

Bombadil could have been an Ainu without being the equal of Manwë. After all, Manwë was the "Elder King", given the charge of moving along Ilúvatar's Themes.
As Mumriken notes, an inability to alter the Ring's influence over others doesn't preclude Tom's "divine" status either. It could be argued that Gandalf was more powerful than the Noldor who made Narya, yet there is no indication that its power as used by him was anything beyond what was put into it by its makers.

Originally Posted by Legolas

There are some revealing statements at the Council of Elrond that should be taken into consideration. Gandalf corrects Erestor's suggestion that Tom had a power over the Ring; Glorfindel and Galdor assert that Tom could not withstand Sauron.

I thought of the Council's words too. I wonder if they might be not explained by the notion of Tom's "outsider" status.
If he entered Arda apart from the Valar, though in nature a similar spirit, he would not have possessed the authority to affect the course of history in the World in the same manner as they did. The Valar were tasked to act as governors for the One. Perhaps Bombadil simply knew that it was not meant for him to meddle directly in ME events, save in very special circumstances. That would explain why he was so secluded, and unwilling to interact much with the Children of Ilúvatar.
Maybe if Tom had tried to guard the Ring, in essence doing Middle-earth's job for it, he would have been guilty of going too far in the eyes of the One, and perhaps would have been disciplined and allowed to fall to Sauron.

Speculation, of course, but it's fun.

[Az0g]

When I read LOTR I asked myself the same question. He seemed like an anomaly, who weren't supposed to be there, but I knew that Tolkien wouldn't have him appear in the books, if it weren't for a certain purpose. Now I know that the purpose, was to make the valar appear in Lord of The Rings, as a reference to his earlier work (Silmarillion). He wanted to involve a valar, without making it obvious but for the sake of his own amusement. Now you might say that I say this, without anything to back me up. But check out this link http://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html
It explains all!

[Belegorn]

At this point my thoughts on Tom Bombadil are that he's like that chick from the Captain Planet series who was the spirit of the Earth. I think he's sort of like the spirit of Arda.

[Mumriken]

Azog that article is amazing. Here I pasted the interesting parts of it together, so he is Aule.

Because most of the Valar are married, determining the possible identity of Goldberry can be a help in establishing Tom's. There are three possible Valier who might have enjoyed living for a time in the Old Forest: Nessa, Vana, and Yavanna. Nessa, who loves deer and dancing, does not fit too well, since neither of these is Goldberry's specialties. Her husband, Tulkas, the best fighter among the Valar, moreover, is probably too warlike to be Tom. Vana, who cares for flowers and birds, also does not fit very well, since Goldberry is concerned with a larger variety of plants, and birds have no special role. Orome, Vana's husband, furthermore, is a hunter, especially of monsters. If he were Tom, there would have been no wights on the Downs. With Yavanna, however, we have just the right emphasis, for she is responsible for all living things, with a special preference for plants. Since she is Queen of the Earth, it is easy to imagine her watering the forest with special care, as Goldberry does during the Hobbits' visit.

In the Silmarillion (pp. 20-21) Yanvanna's appearance is characterized as follows:

In the form of a woman she is tall, and robed in green; but at times she takes other shapes. Some there are who have seen her standing like a tree under heaven, crowned with the Sun; and from all its branches there spilled a golden dew upon the barren earth, and it grew green with corn; but the roots of the tree were in the waters of Ulmo, and the winds of Manwe spoke in its leaves.
When we first meet Goldberry, she is clad in green: "her gown was green, green as young reeds, shot with silver like beads of dew" (Rings, p. 172). When Tom officially introduces Goldberry, he says, "Here's my Goldberry clothed all in silver-green. . . ." When she says goodbye to the Hobbits, she is once again clad in green and Frodo in calling for her refers specifically to this color when he starts to look for her: "My fair lady, clad all in green!" (p. 187). This characterization of Goldberry's customary dress supports that hypothesis that she is Yavanna.

To be sure, when we first meet her, her feet are also surrounded by water, seemingly supporting the water nymph story. This circumstance, however, is not inconsistent with her tree image, which, as just noted, involved having her feet or roots in "the waters of Ulmo."

As the farewell continues, moreover, a description analogous to the tree description is given:

There on the hill-brow she stood beckoning to them: her hair was flying loose, and as it caught the sun it shone and shimmered. A light like the glint of water on dewy grass flashed under her feet as she danced."
Although still in human form, her flying hair hints at "the winds of Manwe" and the reflection of the sun from her hair suggests that she is "crowned with the Sun." The "glint of water on dewy grass" suggests the spilling of the golden dew on the earth as well as "the waters of Ulmo." When the Hobbits last see Goldberry, she is much more like a plant: "they saw Goldberry now small and slender like s sunlit flower against the sky: she was standing still watching them, and her hands were stretched out towards them." In this case, she is probably more flower than tree because Hobbits in general like flowers and are afraid of trees. The "sunlit" image is strikingly similar to Yavanna's primary nonhuman appearance.

Just as Goldberry is very similar to Yavanna, Aule the Smith, shares many common characteristics with Tom and this identification helps explain some of the events that occur in Tom's house - especially his control over the ring without any fear or temptation. Aule was the maker of all the substances of the earth: minerals, gems, and metals. During the creation of Middle-earth he was involved in nearly every aspect of its making. He prepared the sea beds to receive the waters of the ocean and prepared the land for plants and animals. As the Maker he developed and taught all arts, crafts, and skills. Of all the Valar, he had the greatest interest in the Children of Iluvatar. So impatient was he to see them that he made the Dwarves. According to the "Valaquenta" in the Silmarillion (p. 27), although Aule and Melkor were most like of all the Valar in thought and power, their attitudes toward the products of their labor and the labor of others were significantly different. While Melkor carefully guarded his works for himself and destroyed the works of others out of jealousy, Aule delighted in making, not possessing, and "he did not envy the works of others, but sought and gave counsel." It was, in fact, Aule's lack of possessiveness and his willingness to submit his work to the will of Iluvatar that saved the Dwarves from destruction and made it possible for them to receive the gift of free will from Iluvatar.

When one carefully considers the special moral characteristics of Aule, the similarities to Tom are most striking and revealing. Like Aule, Tom is not possessive. Although his power to dominate and control is always stressed - he is the master - he does not interfere with other beings except when they directly interfere with him. Although he has the power to possess whatever he may desire, he does not chose to possess or own the forest. As Goldberry explains, the animals, plants, and natural objects of the forest are all allowed to belong to themselves. This distain for ownership or possession is the reason why Tom is able to handle the ring without fear. Ultimately, all other powerful beings encountered in the trilogy, unless they are already fallen, are afraid to touch the ring lest the desire to possess it should turn them to evil. Since Tom does not want to own or possess anything, it has no power over him. We simply see his interest, curiosity, and delight as he studies the craftmanship involved in its making. Indeed, Tom approaches the ring critically, almost with scorn. While all others refer to the ring as precious in a reverent sense, Tom's use of the word, "Show me the precious ring" (Rings, 1:144), suggests irony or doubt about its value. Since the lack of desire to possess or own was extremely rare among the Valar and the beings of Middle-earth, no over Vala is said to exhibit this moral trait, it seems reasonable to assume that Tom and Aule are the same person.

It is also important to note the tremendous power and control that Tom has over the ring. He is, first of all, able to overcome its normal effects. When he puts it on his finger, he does not become invisible. When Frodo puts it on his finger, Tom is still able to see Frodo: he is "not as blind as that yet" (Ibid.). Second, Tom is able with ease to use the ring in ways that were not intended by its maker, for he is able to make the ring itself disappear. (It is possible that Sauron himself might be unable to do this, for the ring embodied a great part of Sauron's own power, drained from him during its making.) Such power over the ring, displayed almost as a parlor trick, I submit, cannot be accounted for by classifying Tom Bombadil as an anomalous nature spirit. The ability to dominate the ring suggests a Vala; the ease with which it is dominated suggests the ultimate maker of all things in Middle-earth, Aule the Smith, of whom both Sauron and Saruman were mere servants in the beginning before time.

If Tom is Aule, however, two other questions need to be answered. First of all, what are he and Yavanna doing in the Old Forest to begin with? As far as Yavanna is concerned, she is probably just visiting with growing things and vacationing with her husband. Aule, on the other hand, is probably there for the purpose of studying Hobbits. We should not forget that of all the Valar Aule was the one most eager to see the Children of Iluvatar. He is also the only one to make sentient, rational beings of his own. Given his interest in such creatures, it is not unreasonable to assume that, like Gandalf, he found Hobbits fascinating. As Hobbit songs about Tom Bombadil suggest, moreover, he had plenty of contact with Hobbits in Buckland and the Marish, no doubt allowing ample opportunity for Hobbit study.

This account of Tom as Aule is not really inconsistent with Tolkien's claim that Tom has renounced power in a kind of "vow of poverty" and that he exemplifies "a natural pacifist view." At the time of the singing of the Great Music, it is true that Aule, along with most of the other Holy Ones, eventually stopped singing, leaving Melkor to sing on alone. However, they did not stop because Melkor's thunderous and discordant singing defeated them, but rather because they did not wish to compete with him and considered the song spoiled by his behavior. It was not defeat, since obviously by singing together the others could have overcome him. Rather it was a rejection of the conflict itself - hence, a pacifist position. It was indeed the Third Theme sung by Iluvatar, representing the part of the Children of Iluvatar, that was to overcome Melkor's disruption. Concerning the "vow of poverty," Aule has indeed taken such a vow - as exemplified by his attitude toward his work and the work of others - his lack of excessive pride, jealousy, and possessiveness.

In contrast, if Tom is a nature spirit, then no vow of poverty has been taken, and there is no natural pacifist view. According to the nature spirit thesis, as Veryln Flieger puts it in Splintered Light, published in 1983: "Tom Bombadil, on whom the Ring has no effect, is a natural force, a kind of earth spirit, and so the power over the will which the Ring exerts simply has no meaning for him" (p. 128, note). As a natural force, Tom has the same status as a falling rock or the wind or the rain - he is blind activity with no direction or purpose. As such he is not a moral agent, and cannot therefore make moral decisions. The moral dimension is thus completely absent. Tom is immune to the influence of the ring not because of his high moral character, but because he is not capable of having a moral character at all.

If Tom is Aule, however, there is a moral dimension, indeed, a heightened one, for Tom's appearance in the story, although only a "comment," serves as a sharp and clear contrast to the two evil Maiar, Sauron and Saruman, both of whom were once his servants before turning to evil and darkness. Unlike their former master, these two followed the ways of Melkor, envy, jealousy, excessive pride, and the desire to possess and control. As Tolkien explained to his proofreader, Tom's role was to show that there were things beyond and unconcerned with domination and control. On the surface, this view of Tom seems to make him unrelated to all other things and events in Middle-earth - indeed, anomalous. As Aule, however, Tom is not beyond and unconcerned anomalously, but rather is located at the core of morality as it existed in Middle-earth, as the ultimate exemplification of the proper moral stance toward power, pride, and possession. In fact, in terms of the moral traits that most fascinated Tolkien both as an author and as a scholar, Tom Bombadil is Tolkien's moral ideal.

I must say that makes Tom a very interesting character indeed if one looks at his history:

Aulë the Smith is a Vala and one of the Ainur. Aulë is given lordship over the matter that composes Arda and is a master of all the crafts that shape it. He created the Dwarves, who call him Mahal, the Maker. During the Music of the Ainur, Aulë's themes concerned the physical things of which Arda is made; when Ilúvatar gave being to the themes of the Ainur, his music became the lands of Middle-earth. Other of his works include Angainor (the chain of Melkor), the Two Lamps and the vessels of the Sun and Moon. He is husband to Yavanna. His name translates from Quenya as invention.

As Aulë is a smith, he is the Vala most similar in thought and powers to Melkor, in that they each gloried in the fashioning of artful and original things. Both also came to create beings of their own. But while Aulë strove to be true to the original intent of the Music of the Ainur, and submitted all that he did to the will of Ilúvatar, Melkor wished to control and subvert all things, and was jealous of the creations of others so that he would try to twist or destroy all that they made. There was long strife between Aulë and Melkor both before and after the creation of Arda. Aulë, however, traditionally opposed attempts to fight Melkor, for fear of the damage that would be wrought to Arda.

Several Maiar were associated with Aulë: Sauron, before being corrupted by Melkor; and Curumo (Saruman), who later went to Middle-earth as an Istar to combat Sauron. Sauron was among the mightiest, if not the mightiest of the Maiar who served Aulë and used his knowledge of the metaphysical structure of Arda to great effect as a servant of Morgoth in the First Age of Middle-earth and then was his own master in the Second and Third Ages. When Sauron sought to corrupt the Elves in the Second Age one of the names he assumed was Aulendil, meaning devotee of Aulë. It is interesting to note that two of the greatest Maiar sent to Middle-earth, that fell, were in the beginning both aligned with Aulë. The reason for this is probably that this is the order most associated with craft, skill, and by these means, power. Weaker-willed spirits often fall prey to craving for power in Tolkien's works, and these prove no exception.

So he took a look at his old pupil's ring and played around with it a bit.