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#1 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3
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The Northern Kingdoms
One of the most intriguing and frustrating pieces of the history of the Dunedain for me is the separation of Arnor
into the three sister realms of Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur. Tolkien gave us very little information to go on, i was wondering if anyone out there had their own theories why or indeed why Tolkien was reticent on the subject of Arnor when we have a relatively detailed history of Gondor from the same period. |
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#2 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
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Well, the "histories" given in the Appendices of Arnor and Gondor were supposedly obtained by the hobbit authors, and I would suspect that at the time of the War of the Ring much more was generally known about the history of Gondor than of Arnor. That's borne out, I think, by the fact that the Heirs of Elendil existed for so long unnoticed by most. Probably in the archives of Minas Tirith there were more details of the disunion of Arnor, and maybe at Fornost or Annúminas, but who had searched them?
Oh, Gandalf, Elrond, and likely Aragorn knew some more information about the matter, but it just doesn't appear to have been a major concern of the hobbits to go into detail about it. As for why the sons of Eärendur began fighting, maybe it began out of a petty dispute about the way the kingdom was being run, and was escalated by personal grudges and jealousies. That's pretty general, I know, but RL kingdoms have been known to fall from such small beginnings.
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#3 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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An easy explanation suggests itself in here. Tolkien just never got into writing about the Northern Kingdoms as he had more interesting stuff to think and write about. I mean we know a lot about some places and people (elves, maiar...) but astonishingly little about others. I don't think the prof had any "secret reasons" for posterity to ponder upon why there was such little on some subjects - he just made what he had time for for those things he was more interested himself.
Had he lived for a hundred years we might have the "Histories of the Northern Kingdoms" as well to read? And what others books could we read then? "The Maiar: a full account of their birth, relations and deeds" "The History of the Elves staying in Valinor" "The fates of the Dwarves of Nogrod" "Chronicle of the Haradrim" "The Childhood of Tom Bombadill" "Traditional Easterling Folklore" "The secret uncloaked: Wings or Not? The Full History of the Balrogs" Invent your own! ![]()
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#4 |
Pittodrie Poltergeist
Join Date: Jan 2007
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The 'unexplained vistas' is a great part of Tolkien's attraction, if he explained every little bit of his world and its history, well, they'd be no need for this forum for one!
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#5 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2002
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"A Detailed Account of the Wanderings and Mission of the Blue Wizards"
"The Journeys of the Entwives, as Recorded by the Elves of Lorien" "An Atlas of Arda, from the Records of the Guild of Seafarers"
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#6 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
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"Tom Bombadil and the First Squirrel Dropping: A Memoir"
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#7 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 25
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Theories
ArquenoSingollo72 spoke: [Tolkien gave us very little information to go on, i was wondering if anyone out there had their own theories]
Sure. I'll give you one, and its fairly simple too. There are several instances given of twins being born in Middle-earth history. Why not a case of triplets? The only real information given about Amlaith is that he is credited as "eldest son". You could theorize that triplets might all feel to have the same claim to the crown, and decided to split the kingdom 3-ways as an answer. There ya go. Food for thought. Curiously, Weathertop/Amon Sul is also similar in theory to the Three-farthing stone of the Shire (which had 4 farthings), who followed "The Rules" (of the King) of which the division of the realm was still in existence, and recognized as such, and known to hobbits at Bree c.1300, since the realm was not "reunited" until the days of Argeleb I (ruled 1349-1356), where Arthedain having claimed all the realm signified by the King taking a name with the prefix ar- to recognize this, still had Cardolan and Rhudaur in existence. |
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#8 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Nov 2009
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#9 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Hey, no problem. Glad it helped.
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#10 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
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Quote:
That does not appear to be the case. Appendix A to ROTK states that Narmacil I succeeded Atanatar. Being childless, Narmacil was in turn succeeded by his younger brother Calmacil.
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#11 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Even without having twins and triplets there could be disputes over the throne. Let's say there are three brothers, or cousins, or whatever - and each thinks that they are meant to be the King, if not by bloodline, then by their abilities. They think they are best fit to be King, they deserve to be King. Who cares if the "rightful heir" is your older brother when you can be a much better King than him?
I always imagined this to be the likeliest scenario.
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#12 | |
Emperor of the South Pole
Join Date: Dec 2002
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One could just be a case of bad parenting. Since little is said of King Eärendur other than he split the kingdom between his sons. Another could be that Eärendur didn't like his eldest son Amlaith for any number of reasons and so split the kingdom amongst the sons. As for Tolkien ot expanding on this or the other subjects mention, well, he did have a full time job as a Professor, and raised a family. I doubt he could have covered everything had he spent every waking moment writing in the world of Middle Earth |
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#13 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Re: the "triplets" hypothesis: it seems to me that if Tolkien had meant something as noteworthy as that to be the reason for the split, he would have said so.
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#14 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
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Quote:
Vying for the throne is not anything new among the Dúnedain as Soronto wanted to get the throne from his first cousin Ancalimë way back in early Númenor. Of course the famous one of grave effect in the Southern Kingdom involved Eldacar and Castamir.
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#15 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Quote:
Gondor's intermingling with the lesser Men of Middle-earth gave it the manpower to stand as a bulwark against Mordor and its allies even after such calamities as the plague and the Kin-strife, whereas the Witch-king went north and simply wore down Arnor over time through attrition.
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#16 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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I suspect that the division of Arnor was inspired by the fate of many RW Germanic kingdoms, including Charlemagne's empire; it was a byproduct of the ultimately destructive old Teutonic custom of dividing an inheritance among the sons rather than adhering to primogeniture.
Of course Gondor was also weakened by civil war, but there it was a faction-fight over a single crown rather than armed squabbles between, say, Belfalas and Anorien.
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#17 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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Quote:
It makes one wonder that if Gondor had had an external force actively fomenting dissension, could it have avoided the fate of its northern twin?
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#18 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Quote:
Gondor did- it is IMO pretty clear that Harad (under Sauron/Nazgul influence, and its ruling caste of Black Numenoreans) were backing Castamir in fomenting the Kinstrife. Arnor broke up long before the Witch-King came north- in fact it was the rise of Angmar which forced the squabbling sub-kingdoms to unite (or at least Arthedain and Cardolan, Rhudaur being a lost cause)
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#19 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Quote:
After Castamir's defeat his sons sought refuge at Umbar, and then it seems they made their alliance with "enemies of Gondor". Certainly Arnor was already fractured at the WK's arrival , but it looks like he really hurt any chances of a unified Arnor when his vassals took power in Rhudaur. The Dúnedain were overwhelmed by superior numbers, it seems.
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#20 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2008
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The Kin-strife in Gondor always struck me (and others, so I claim no credit for being the first to think this) as being possibly influenced by the English Wars of the Roses (1455-1485), fought between the Lancaster and York branches of the royal House of Plantagent for the crown of that country.
For this reason, I agree with William Cloud Hicklin, that this was 'a faction-fight over a single crown rather than armed squabbles between, say, Belfalas and Anorien'. Gondor at least survived as a single state, though reduced in power, while Arnor was fragmented and destroyed, surviving on maps only as a 'lost realm'. |
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