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11-25-2023, 03:28 PM | #1 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
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How many 'Great Tales' were there?
There seems to be a general consensus among Tolkien fans that there were 3 'Great Tales' (with good reason, I might add; see Atanatarion):
1) The Tale of Beren and Luthien (i.e. The Lay of Leithian) 2) The Tale of the Children of Hurin (i.e. the Narn) 3) The Fall of Gondolin and the voyages of Earendil (which are actually grouped together by Tolkien in most cases, I believe) However (and this has been bugging me for quite some time), I distinctly remember Tolkien laying out 4 'Great Tales' somewhere - but I can't remember where! My best guess is that the 4th tale had something to do with either the 'Wanderings of Hurin' or most likely with Dior and/or Nauglamir. Someone please help!
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12-01-2023, 09:59 AM | #2 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
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The fouth tale would be Tale of Eärendil. It is mentioned, at least, in the letter a Milton Waldman.
But the Memorandum printed in the Section I of Miths Transformed is stated that there were three mixing TFoG with the Tale of Eärendil. With a structure mixing again the two tales of the House of Hador. Greetings |
12-01-2023, 11:24 AM | #3 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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However, the Lay of Earendil was never written. Not even sketched, aside from some cryptic jottings from the Lost Tales era.
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12-01-2023, 12:47 PM | #4 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Yes. Pity.
It would have been a great one the whole Narn en-Êl. |
12-02-2023, 12:32 PM | #5 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Yes - like I said in my original comment, Tolkien seems to have (more often than not!) considered the stories of Tuor and Earendil as two parts of one great tale.
But my original question was about Tolkien's explicit statements about the 4th 'Great Tale' (which wasn't that of Earendil!), and where to find it, because it does exist, I just...don't know where to find it, but I'm 100% sure that there is such a statement.
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12-03-2023, 07:40 AM | #6 |
Wight
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The fourth Tale would be the Tale of Earendel. And is stated in the refered letter. Possibly I,m mistaken but I think is the only time the Professor wrote about.
CT possibly said something in one of his prefaces/comments but I can't find it. |
12-04-2023, 07:11 AM | #7 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
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The only thing I can bring to mind is from way back in the Book of Lost Tales, and it kind of feels like everyone is right: the "Fourth Great Tale" is both Earendil and the Nauglamir.
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12-04-2023, 11:39 AM | #8 |
Wight
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This is the passage I refered to from the Letter Nº131, He was talking about the Tale of Beren and Lúthien:
There are other stories almost equally full in treatment, and equally independent and yet linked to the general history. There is the Children of Húrin, the tragic tale of Túrin Turambar and his sister Níniel – of which Túrin is the hero: a figure that might be said (by people who like that sort of thing, though it is not very useful) to be derived from elements in Sigurd the Volsung, Oedipus, and the Finnish Kullervo. There is the Fall of Gondolin: the chief Elvish stronghold. And the tale, or tales, of Earendil the Wanderer. He is important as the person who brings the Silmarillion to its end, and as providing in his offspring the main links to and persons in the tales of later Ages. Greetings |
01-19-2024, 10:34 AM | #9 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Maybe you're thinking of a note to The Shibboleth of Feanor.
"As is seen in the Silmarillion. This is not an Eldarin title or work. It is a compilation, probably made in Numenor, which includes (in prose) the four great tales or lays of the heroes of the Atani, of which "The Children of Hurin" was probably composed already in Beleriand in the First Age, but necessarily is preceded by an account of Feanor and his making of the Silmarils. All however are "Mannish" works." JRRT, note 17. |
01-19-2024, 08:25 PM | #10 |
Spirit of Mist
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The four tales are also discussed by CRRT in the introduction to Children of Hurin. He cited correspondence to Waldman though not by name if I recall. The 4 were Beren and Luthien, Hurin and Turin, Tuor and the fall of Gondolin, and the “voyages” of Earendil.
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