Latest news on Amazon's "Lord of the Rings" series

[Herald of Mandos]

I'm sure everyone here has been following this pretty closely, but have you heard about the latest definitely almost certainly happening development? What do you think? Is it too early to start pouring the victory swarfega?

Amazon Studios' recent release of stunning new maps of Middle-earth has the Tolkien world in a spin- as has their cryptic final statement, "Welcome to the Second Age," suggesting to some that the upcoming "Lord of the Rings" series might actually be a sequel to the award-winning film trilogy. But all this pales besides Amazon's latest coup- the return of Peter Jackson to the world of Middle-earth.

Last year, Jackson quashed similar rumours, but Amazon Studios Head Jennifer Salke says all that has changed. "We're in the middle of talking about that right now, figuring out just how he might want to be involved. We have big plans for this series- I don't know that it will match "The Lord of the Rings", but I think what you’ll see is the film strategy will evolve; the aperture will widen on the size of the audience that we’re going to draw in.”

Jackson himself was more reticent. "Look," he told Deadline, "why would I want anything to do with Middle-earth or Tolkien ever again after the interminable nightmare that was 'The Hobbit' production? I regularly wake in a cold sweat dreaming that I'm... still... making... those films... and it's never... ever... going to end... oh god!"

However, Salke attributes this to Jackson's impish sense of humour. "When Peter says there's 'nothing happening' with him on the series, that he's 'not involved at all', that's just his way of saying 'not yet'". She adds that Amazon representatives have been unobtrusively visiting Peter Jackson's home and studio in New Zealand, expansive location of the "Lord of the Rings" and "Hobbit" movies. "Our strategy is evolving, we're using the telephoto lens and covering all the angles. In fact we've been able to get a lot of very interesting angles that Peter doesn't even know about yet. But he will."

Although secrecy around the project has been tight, Salke did let slip a tasty tidbit: the still unnamed "Second Age" series will be a prequel after all. The story, which she describes as "somewhere" between a faithful adaptation and an original work, is not finalised but will probably centre on Aragorn's youth in Númenor, his doomed romance with Princess Míriel, his first experience of war in the Battle of the Last Alliance and the traumatic betrayal of his father, Isildur, which led him to renounce the throne of Gondor.

"Sounds like a horrible travesty," Peter Jackson joked. "I'm still smarting from the flak I got over the stuff we added to... to those films but at least some of that really was in the Appendices! Why would I want to put my name on this trashy piece of glorified fan-fiction?"

Why indeed? Humour aside, Jennifer Salke explains that Jackson, "will have every incentive to cooperate, especially once we show him the pictures, er, I mean, put him in the picture. We're in dialogue with him now, helping him see where his interests really lie.

He'll be working with us, all right. If he knows what's good for him."

www.deadline.com

[Huinesoron]

Sounds good to me! Tolkien's whole 'and then three thousand years passed between the interesting parts' premise was always pretty dumb, so I'm glad to see they're streamlining it, as he should have done in the first place. (Of course, Isildur as 'the last king of Gondor' was already in RotK-M, so Jackson as ever was prescient on this!)

Delighted to hear PJ will be back - I hope he has some more of his amazing cameos! Ooh, idea - what if they got Andy Serkis to play Ar-Pharazon? That way, we could avoid having a physical Sauron (another of Tolkien's goofy ideas that Jackson rightly fixed), and just have him as a voice in Pharazon's head. Serkis'd be great at that.

hS

[Herald of Mandos]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Sounds good to me! Tolkien's whole 'and then three thousand years passed between the interesting parts' premise was always pretty dumb, so I'm glad to see they're streamlining it, as he should have done in the first place. (Of course, Isildur as 'the last king of Gondor' was already in RotK-M, so Jackson as ever was prescient on this!)

Delighted to hear PJ will be back - I hope he has some more of his amazing cameos! Ooh, idea - what if they got Andy Serkis to play Ar-Pharazon? That way, we could avoid having a physical Sauron (another of Tolkien's goofy ideas that Jackson rightly fixed), and just have him as a voice in Pharazon's head. Serkis'd be great at that.

hS

A CGI Ar-Pharazôn? Why not?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Herald of Mandos

A CGI Ar-Pharazôn? Why not?

I'm only behind this if my namesake is included, and voiced by Ryan Reynolds.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Bah! Nolan North.

[Rhun charioteer]

I hear the latest date for this to air is in 2021. As the deal is production has to start within a certain timeframe else the Tolkien estate walks away with all the money.

Amazon is probably busy casting and setting up the set infrastructure and the like.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rhun charioteer

I hear the latest date for this to air is in 2021. As the deal is production has to start within a certain timeframe else the Tolkien estate walks away with all the money.

Amazon is probably busy casting and setting up the set infrastructure and the like.

I wonder if I can file a lawsuit claiming Tolkien gave me the rights to all his characters and Middle Earth™ in a past life. Think that'd tie things up long enough?

[Rhun charioteer]

You'd have to prove you were reincarnated and that the past life was you and if you couldn't do that, your suit would be dismissed.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Rhun charioteer

You'd have to prove you were reincarnated and that the past life was you and if you couldn't do that, your suit would be dismissed.

In addition, in your previous life you had to have pushed a Balrog off the side of a mountain. It's in the legal code.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

In addition, in your previous life you had to have pushed a Balrog off the side of a mountain. It's in the legal code.

But only if you come to court wearing the Hogwarts sorting hat.

[Morthoron]

I don't know if any of you were watching Game of Thrones, and I won't issue any spoilers, but...episode 5...wow. Ummm...that was...completely unnecessary.

And that should be a cautionary tale for this new Middle-earth monstrosity Amazon is erecting skyward like the tower of Babel. George RR Martin never finished his story, and the GoT franchise writers have seemed to throw caution to the wind and went off the deep end in a TV show that seemed to never have a deep end.

The Second Age Middle-earth is sparse on detail. The amount of detail required to build a story may well lead us in a direction none of us have any inclination to follow.

[Inziladun]

I'm not a devoted watcher of GOT, but I'm familiar enough with it to have indeed suspected that any Middle-earth based series might follow that template. No doubt it's been a resounding ratings success; why not stick with a winning formula, when they've no one with the Estate to reckon with?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I don't know if any of you were watching Game of Thrones, and I won't issue any spoilers, but...episode 5...wow. Ummm...that was...completely unnecessary.

And that should be a cautionary tale for this new Middle-earth monstrosity Amazon is erecting skyward like the tower of Babel. George RR Martin never finished his story, and the GoT franchise writers have seemed to throw caution to the wind and went off the deep end in a TV show that seemed to never have a deep end.

The Second Age Middle-earth is sparse on detail. The amount of detail required to build a story may well lead us in a direction none of us have any inclination to follow.

I would have to disagree: Ep 5 redeemed what till now has been a blah, predictable season. One of the great episodes of the whole series.

However, the GOT style would be COMPLETELY WRONG for Tolkien.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

However, the GOT style would be COMPLETELY WRONG for Tolkien.

Ominously, YouTube channels are now touting the coming series as a possible GOT successor.

Bad enough that in the same video they mention a Stephen King Dark Tower series and one based on H.P. Lovecraft, both of which I enjoy in the written form, but am rather skeptical of other "visions".

Curiously, they also mention a Narnia series. I've never been a fan, so that one doesn't have any impact on me personally.

[Rhun charioteer]

The Akallabeth has quite a lot of GOT esque elements if only by implications. However GOT’s style and thematic atmosphere do not fit Tolkien even in that context.

Thing is, Amazon wants to make the next GOT and will seek to emulate whatever elements of GOT real or perceived to have made it successful.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Rhun charioteer

Thing is, Amazon wants to make the next GOT and will seek to emulate whatever elements of GOT real or perceived to have made it successful.

Is there any hope that since GoT is commonly held to have ended on a sour note, that perhaps that will pour some cold water on Amazon wanting to pursue this enterprise too avidly?

Probably not.

[Huinesoron]

Tom Shippey on the limitations of the series.

There's a clump of interesting questions and responses at the beginning.

Originally Posted by How so?

It is difficult because the Second Age kind of “stopped” twice. Once with the Fall of Númenor and then, about 150 years later, with the Last Alliance and the defeat of Sauron. The end of the Second Age on a map looks about the same as the beginning of the Third Age in terms of place names, coastline or border lines. In addition, the difference to the middle of the Second Age is already much greater. Númenor is still listed on the map, the place names are different, we are literally before the transformation of the world by Ilúvatar.

It will be of great importance for the series when exactly the plot takes place, at which point in Middle-earth history something happens. This was one of our difficulties when creating a map for the Second Age, because you have to determine very precisely what date this map should be from. Tolkien wrote some of it down, but as far as the Second Age goes, the information we have is a three-page timeline in the appendices to the Lord of the Rings and the List of Kings of Númenor and a little more material in the Unfinished Tales, but that’s about all.

It sounds like the map is specifically tuned to the date of the series, so the presence of both Lond Daer and Ost-in-Edhil implies they're starting early, perhaps as early as Aldarion himself.

It's also notable that Shippey mentions the Appendices here; more on that in a minute.

Originally Posted by So does Amazon have a free hand in the interpretation?

Amazon has a relatively free hand when it comes to adding something, since, as I said, very few details are known about this time span. The Tolkien Estate will insist that the main shape of the Second Age is not altered. Sauron invades Eriador, is forced back by a Númenorean expedition, is returns to Númenor. There he corrupts the Númenoreans and seduces them to break the ban of the Valar. All this, the course of history, must remain the same. But you can add new characters and ask a lot of questions, like: What has Sauron done in the meantime? Where was he after Morgoth was defeated? Theoretically, Amazon can answer these questions by inventing the answers, since Tolkien did not describe it. But it must not contradict anything which Tolkien did say. That’s what Amazon has to watch out for. It must be canonical, it is impossible to change the boundaries which Tolkien has created, it is necessary to remain “tolkienian”.

So Amazon are being told to not change a single word of Tolkien, but to work in the gaps. That's a lot more strict than the movies were, but with a much less explored setting. It may argue against them doing more than touching on Aldarion and Erendis, since they were written out in semi-full, and so would be more difficult to work with.

Originally Posted by Does the Tokien Estate have a veto on changes?

Yes, the Tolkien Estate keeps a very careful eye on everything and is quite capable of saying no. They retain a veto over everything that concerns Tolkien.

Am I wrong in thinking this is a very heartening statement? 'The Tolkien Estate' in this context probably doesn't include Christopher (resigned as director in 2017, though he is still literary executor), but is still very much in the family. It's always possible Priscilla doesn't care, though.

Originally Posted by What about the First and Third Ages?

The First and Third Ages are “off-limits”, you can’t have the First Age. Events could be mentioned at the most if they explain the events of the Second Age. But if it is not described or mentioned in the Lord of the Rings or in the appendices, they probably cannot use it. So the question is to what extent they may hint at events that took place, for example, in the First Age, but still continue to affect the Second Age. There are several maps authorized by Tolkien, not just the ones we’re are familiar with, and some of those maps have places on them which are not in the other maps. But if Tolkien authorized them then that’s okay. So it’s it’s a bit of a minefield. You have to tread very carefully but at the same time there is quite a lot of scope for interpretation and free invention.

This is why I highlighted the Appendices earlier: 'the Third Age is off limits' implies Amazon aren't allowed to use anything from the Zaentz rights, but the Appendices are included in that (hence Gandalf's meanderings in The Hobbit XVIII: On A Path In Mirkwood). So either we don't fully understand the rights situation, or some negotiation has been taking place, and will likely continue to do so.

There is a video introducing some of the team behind the show; it doesn't exactly grab my attention, but someone might see something exciting. They show John Howe sketching what could be a shoreline or a rockface, and Kate Hawley (costumes) working on this:



(Heavily skewed and then repaired.)

My guess is that it's probably a sketch of the interviewer. It certainly doesn't seem to hold any details. ^_^

hS

[Inziladun]

If characters are the main avenue open for original development, I have to wonder if they're going to want to impart convictions and motivations that, while recognizable to us today, would be out of phase with Tolkien's established "worldviews" for his creations.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I have to wonder if they're going to want to impart convictions and motivations that, while recognizable to us today, would be out of phase with Tolkien's established "worldviews" for his creations.

Of course they are.

[Rhun charioteer]

Indeed, Amazon may not be able to change the timeline or add events, factions and so on, that didn't occur in the books, but through the characters, they will be able to insert modern ideas, agendas, and biases.

And when criticized, will simply say they are filling in the gaps and not contradicting existing source material.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

FWIW, New Zealand has been confirmed as the location for principal filming.

Probably to be expected, given the PJ connection, the availability of WETA, and relatively cheap costs compared to Hollywood. I'm not however convinced how well it could pass for Numenor, though, as opposed to Eriador and Rohan/Gondor; Westernesse lay in subtropical latitudes.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

FWIW, New Zealand has been confirmed as the location for principal filming.

Probably to be expected, given the PJ connection, the availability of WETA, and relatively cheap costs compared to Hollywood. I'm not however convinced how well it could pass for Numenor, though, as opposed to Eriador and Rohan/Gondor; Westernesse lay in subtropical latitudes.

I remember Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-Earth had Númenor somewhat north of the Girdle of Arda, but that seemed a bit too tropical for me. I picture it as looking like France or Spain.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I remember Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-Earth had Númenor somewhat north of the Girdle of Arda, but that seemed a bit too tropical for me. I picture it as looking like France or Spain.

I'm sure I remember one map showing it exactly on the equator. I have a horrible feeling it was...

... yeah, it was the 'Lungs' map. Let's forget that. ^_^;

Is there an actual source for the tropical/subtropical location? Logically speaking, Numenor should lie such that both Umbar and Vinyalonde are sensible landing points; the Fonstad map shows it south of both, and begs the question of why they wouldn't get their wood from those handy southerly forests.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Keep in mind that the bulk of the ultimate Numenorean colonies lay off-map in Harad; Umbar and Pelargir were the northernmost. As to why Aldarion originally landed in Lindon- well, besides the fact that one would want an established port for refit and resupply, not an uninhabited bay, it's also the case that the Numenoreans are stated to have been taught shipcraft and sailing "by the Eldar," which I expect means Cirdan's people rather than the occasional visitors from Eressea. So the route to Lindon was known and Aldarion may well have had Elvish navigators on his first voyage.

Why harvest timber and establish a logging port in Minhiriath? Probably because it was "uninhabited" in the usual imperialist meaning of the term (Eriador means, roughly, "empty land"); Harad was full of "civilized" peoples who likely would have objected rather violently to wholesale felling (those of Eriador did, too, but they couldn't do much about it). Moreover, Aldarion's voyages were to the northwest of Middle-earth, even if later mariners went much, much farther; and it would make sense that he was looking for a source of timber not far from his 'advance base' in Lindon without actually encroaching on Elvish lands; probably was pointed that way by Gil-Galad's folk.

Equatorial latitude: the Annals of Valinor state that Tun (later Tirion) is located on the "girdle of the earth." The maps associated with the Ambarkanta (mid-late 1930s, definitely after the Numenor legend was first created) show Taniquetil and the Bay of Elvenhome marked at or near the equator. Eressea is also on or near the equator; and Numenor was just within distant sight of Eressea (from the top of the Meneltarma, so say ~100 nautical miles).

One could also speculate about currents and prevailing winds; in the RW North Atlantic they run in a clockwise circle, so that ships returning to Europe from the West Indies would run up the American coast with the gulf stream and cross in northerly waters, and similarly outbound ships went southwards via the Canaries and Azores. Trying to make a beeline left you becalmed in the Sargasso Sea. HOWEVER- our ocean and atmospheric currents are products of the spinning of the spherical Earth, which wouldn't really be a thing before the Downfall.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Keep in mind that the bulk of the ultimate Numenorean colonies lay off-map in Harad; Umbar and Pelargir were the northernmost. As to why Aldarion originally landed in Lindon- well, besides the fact that one would want an established port for refit and resupply, not an uninhabited bay, it's also the case that the Numenoreans are stated to have been taught shipcraft and sailing "by the Eldar," which I expect means Cirdan's people rather than the occasional visitors from Eressea. So the route to Lindon was known and Aldarion may well have had Elvish navigators on his first voyage.

Why harvest timber and establish a logging port in Minhiriath? Probably because it was "uninhabited" in the usual imperialist meaning of the term (Eriador means, roughly, "empty land"); Harad was full of "civilized" peoples who likely would have objected rather violently to wholesale felling (those of Eriador did, too, but they couldn't do much about it).

This is good stuff. I love the idea that Harad was "the civilised world" at that time - after all, they hadn't just undergone a cataclysmic destruction of the western seaboard...!

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Equatorial latitude: the Annals of Valinor state that Tun (later Tirion) is located on the "girdle of the earth." Eressea is in the bay of Eldamar, necessarily also on or near the equator; and Numenor was just within distant sight of Eressea (from the top of the Meneltarma, so say ~100 nautical miles).

Um... the world is flat. ^_^ Eressea is visible from arbitrary distances, weather and the observer's visual acuity permitting. The top of the Meneltarma is presumably Pretty High, so I think the only limit can be haze/shadow - which in the Shadowy Sea, is magical rather than meteorological, so it's very difficult to calculate how far away you can still see through it from.

hS

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Eressea is visible from arbitrary distances, weather and the observer's visual acuity permitting. The top of the Meneltarma is presumably Pretty High, so I think the only limit can be haze/shadow - which in the Shadowy Sea, is magical rather than meteorological, so it's very difficult to calculate how far away you can still see through it from.

Wouldn't that presuppose a conscious allowance on the part of the Valar for Men to see "over the fence", as it were? Get a look at how the other half lives? If that was the case, it would seem the Valar either were deliberately baiting the Númenóreans, or were blissfully ignorant of the perils of being mortals among the immortal.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Assuming that Numenoreans have RW human vision or close to it (and they seem not to have Elvish eyes, since Aragorn is always using Legolas as his binoculars), then their angular resolution is approx one arc-minute or 1/60 of a degree. That's why you can't look up at the moon and see flags and old lunar rovers there, and why the military relies on radar to pick up approaching aircraft that the Mk 1 eyeball hasn't a chance of seeing before it's too late..

So, even if we assume absolutely clear air without haze or turbulence, the maximum distance at which an unaided human eye could pick out a tower of ~ 30m diameter would be around 100 kilometers.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Assuming that Numenoreans have RW human vision or close to it (and they seem not to have Elvish eyes, since Aragorn is always using Legolas as his binoculars), then their angular resolution is approx one arc-minute or 1/60 of a degree. That's why you can't look up at the moon and see flags and old lunar rovers there, and why the military relies on radar to pick up approaching aircraft that the Mk 1 eyeball hasn't a chance of seeing before it's too late..

So, even if we assume absolutely clear air without haze or turbulence, the maximum distance at which an unaided human eye could pick out a tower of ~ 30m diameter would be around 100 kilometers.

And that's why well-to-do Numenoreans visited Dr. Henfanwa for a LASIK procedure at the Armenelos Eye Institute.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Assuming that Numenoreans have RW human vision or close to it (and they seem not to have Elvish eyes, since Aragorn is always using Legolas as his binoculars), then their angular resolution is approx one arc-minute or 1/60 of a degree. That's why you can't look up at the moon and see flags and old lunar rovers there, and why the military relies on radar to pick up approaching aircraft that the Mk 1 eyeball hasn't a chance of seeing before it's too late..

So, even if we assume absolutely clear air without haze or turbulence, the maximum distance at which an unaided human eye could pick out a tower of ~ 30m diameter would be around 100 kilometers.

I will accept your maths.

The source text is:

Originally Posted by Silm: Akallabeth

...at times, when all the air was clear and the sun was in the east, they would look out and descry far off in the west a city white-shining on a distant shore, and a great harbour and a tower. For in those days the Númenóreans were far-sighted; yet even so it was only the keenest eyes among them that could see this vision, from the Meneltarma, maybe, or from some tall ship that lay off their western coast as far as it was lawful for them to go.

So could everyone see the city? Assume it's a km across & 100km away, and you get a width of ~30 arc-minutes (half a degree). From the top of Meneltarma, that should be visible to almost everyone. A nice addition to the religious ceremonies. Then the keen-eyed could catch a glimpse of the tower.

This does mean that Eressea itself would be a major presence on the 'horizon' - it would be impossible to miss from anywhere on the slopes of Meneltarma! But I guess Numenor doesn't really have other mountains, so that's not necessarily a problem. (I am now imagining young Numenorean kids in the west climbing trees and insisting "I can totally see it! Wow, that tower's so tall!" and suchlike.)

So why couldn't they see Taniquetil? Surely the tallest mountain in the world would be... kind of hard to miss?

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

...at times, when all the air was clear and the sun was in the east, they would look out and descry far off in the west a city white-shining on a distant shore, and a great harbour and a tower. For in those days the Númenóreans were far-sighted; yet even so it was only the keenest eyes among them that could see this vision, from the Meneltarma, maybe, or from some tall ship that lay off their western coast as far as it was lawful for them to go.

Aliquoque dormitat bonum Homerus? By interjecting the Meneltarma - and the ship off shore can be interpreted the same way - it almost appears Tolkien was forgetting that the world was flat and thinking in terms of a round-world horizon. On a flat world elevation wouldn't make any difference, not if nothing intervenes but ocean.

This impression is reinforced in that the passage originated with the first draft of the Drowning of Anadune (circa 1945-6), which appears, not definitively but suggestively, to have been a Round-World text. At least there is the passage (§ 31, HME IX p. 347) "For with subtle arguments Sauron gainsaid all that the Avalai had taught. And he bade them think that the world was not a closed circle; and that there lay therein many lands yet for their winning..." Nor, in DAI, do we have the passage from the Downfall in which Eru globed the world, simply that the great chasm opened and Aman was removed from reach.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

So why couldn't they see Taniquetil? Surely the tallest mountain in the world would be... kind of hard to miss?

I'm not saying it's aliens, but....

it's aliens.

[Inziladun]

A new link has emerged to tie the Amazon series to Game of Thrones.

Are the signs indeed pointing toward a new GoT with a Tolkien flavor?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

A new link has emerged to tie the Amazon series to Game of Thrones.

Are the signs indeed pointing toward a new GoT with a Tolkien flavor?

My question is, what the heck is up with this:

Originally Posted by Deadline

No details about the characters are being revealed but it is believed that English actor Mawle will play the series’ lead villain, Oren, opposite Poulter’s young hero Beldor and female lead Tyra (Kavenagh)

Oren? Beldor? Tyra? Those can't be real names, right?

-They're very clearly not Adunaic names. Those come in forms like Îbal and Zamîn; having three without accents on would be implausible, given how accented Adunaic is in general.

-Beldor looks like Sindarin, but I think it might be... bad Sindarin? 'Bel' could be Beleg (strong), and 'dor' is, well, Dor (land), but a) Strong Land is a stupid name for a person, and b) I'm pretty sure you'd wind up with something like Belegdhor, or even Belendor, not 'Beldor'.

-Tyra is clearly not Sindarin, with that ending - the only instance of 'yra' in the entire Sindarin corpus is in the collective plural yrath of the suggested Sindarin form yr of Noldorin ior. I don't think it can be Sindarin, either - 'ty' seems to be a consonant cluster, so can't be followed by another consonant. What it is is an Old Norse name, derived from Tyr (the god), which means it could be standing in for Northern Mannish.

--Which takes us back to Beldor, which is very close to Baldr, the son of Odin. So we have two possible Northern Mannish names - but would they really set a Second Age series up in Lake Town? (Or maybe they're dwarves? That would be hilarious, actually.)

-Oren... well, in our world it's a Hebrew name, so if you accept the reductive 'dwarves are Tolkien's Jews' stance, you've got a good case for Khazad-Dum: The Series (not gonna lie, I'd love that). It could be Quenya, using órë, 'heart' - in fact if you put the accent back on, it's valid Quenya for 'my heart'. There's nothing to stop it being Sindarin, but it feels a bit too Quenya-y for that to me.

So. We have three characters who cannot all be Elves, and cannot all be Numenoreans. They could all be dwarves (maybe), or Men of Middle-earth - but those really aren't the sort of stories you'd expect to see in such a series. Taking a quick look at the actors, I can see Elf or Numenorean in the two heroes, but not Dwarf. 'Oren's' actor could pull off a Dwarf, but I'm not sure he could play an Elf or Annatar.

Best guess? Fake names, because they're actually playing canon characters. Given the number of pouting faces both of the 'goodies' pull in their Google photos, I'm guessing Aldarion and Erendis.

hS

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Best guess? Fake names, because they're actually playing canon characters. Given the number of pouting faces both of the 'goodies' pull in their Google photos, I'm guessing Aldarion and Erendis.

"Oren" is said to be the "lead villain" though. I don't see how that could fit into the story of Aldarion and Erendis as set out in Unfinished Tales.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

-Beldor looks like Sindarin, but I think it might be... bad Sindarin? 'Bel' could be Beleg (strong), and 'dor' is, well, Dor (land), but a) Strong Land is a stupid name for a person, and b) I'm pretty sure you'd wind up with something like Belegdhor, or even Belendor, not 'Beldor'....

--Which takes us back to Beldor, which is very close to Baldr, the son of Odin. So we have two possible Northern Mannish names - but would they really set a Second Age series up in Lake Town? (Or maybe they're dwarves? That would be hilarious, actually.)

Actually, it is not "Beldor", it is unfortunately worse -- it is "Beldar". This, to me, only cause guffaws of derision, because Beldar was a Conehead as played by Dan Ackroyd in Saturday Night Live.

https://tvline.com/2019/10/21/lord-o...-villain-oren/

To be philologically unaware of Tolkien's languages is bad enough, but to be completely incognizant of cultural touchstones is laughable in the extreme. I wonder if Beldar will meet up with his Numenorean buds and say, "Come, let us consume mass quantities!"

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-li...conehead-74136

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

To be philologically unaware of Tolkien's languages is bad enough, but to be completely incognizant of cultural touchstones is laughable in the extreme. I wonder if Beldar will meet up with his Numenorean buds and say, "Come, let us consume mass quantities!"

"Aldarion, to gain the Kingship, you will....narfle the Garthok!

[Huinesoron]

Well, as of yesterday we have 15 cast members, which includes several we already knew.

It has, embarassingly, only just occurred to me that if you're bad at reading the appendices, the name 'Sauron' could be pronounced 'Sore-on'. Which is very very close to the 'lead villain' name of Oren.

Given that the series is still called 'The Lord of the Rings', of which as we know There Is Only One, I think Joseph Mawle is probably playing Sauron. Given the... inventiveness of that code-name, is it possible that the others are just as bad? 'Tyra' could be a contraction of 'Tar-Telperien', who was queen at the time the Rings were forged. (And I'm not just suggesting this because I want a Witch-Queen of Numenor arc! ) As for Beldar... yeah, I've still got nothing there.

From the pictures in the article, I think Morfydd Clark might be playing an elf - perhaps even Galadriel? She and Elrond are just about the only characters people who only know the films might recognize in this time-frame...

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I'm basically expecting this to be every bit as bad as the Hobbit movies, crossed with The Last Jedi and Ishtar.

That leaves room to be pleasantly surprised.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I'm basically expecting this to be every bit as bad as the Hobbit movies, crossed with The Last Jedi and Ishtar.

That leaves room to be pleasantly surprised.

I have foreseen abominations a'plenty coming since C. Tolkien relinquished his executorship. Now his sad passing really bodes ill for J.R.R. Tolkien's literary corpus.

[Rhun charioteer]

It really depends on the estate and how much they are willing to veto. They might only Veto large scale contradictions or thematic or plot notions. They might have a relatively free hand and be reluctant to use the veto lest they anger Amazon.

My worst case prediction is that Amazon gets around the veto by basically making up glorified fanfiction.

Basically Shadows of Mordor(and that actually contradicts the lore).

They can always claim they are filling in the gaps, or they aren’t violating the agreement not to contradict things.

This could mean the show is basically Shadows of Mordor but without even the pretense of being an “adaptation” except in the loosest sense.

But rather original fiction set within Tolkien’s world. Which at its best would probably be uncreative and mediocre. At worst it would be torture.

But with Christopher gone-my main concern is that if the show does well. The younger Tolkien family members might sell out as it were. Letting Amazon and other corporations poach and ravage the rest of Tolkien’s corpus.