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#1 |
Maundering Mage
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,645
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Source of Magic
I am rereading, or listening to rather, the Fellowship on disc and a question has occurred to me I know not the answer.
What is the source of the magical power that Gandalf, Saruman, Radghast, Galadriel,Durin's Bane, Saruon and other possess? What can they do and how? We know Gandalf worked some lightning or some magic on Weathertop against the wraiths. He performed a sealing or locking spell on the door in the chamber of Marzbul, the lighting of the way by his staff. The balrog does a countr-spell against him at the door and it leaves him weary. What 'magical' powers do each possess, how do they come across it and what is the power source of this magic? Another example I just thought of is the girdle of Melian. Obviously most of the beings are maiar but not all, i.e. Galadriel and her mirror.
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“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” |
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#2 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,036
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The seemingly supernatural (to those not of their order) abililties of the Valar and the Maia can only be explained by the fact that they are 'divine' beings, and as such have a power over the substance of Arda that allows them to do things that seem to transcend natural laws in ME. The ultimate source of that power could only be their Creator.
The powers they possess appear to be fairly generalized in that they don't seem to be limited to any particular expression. The Istari may be exceptions to this, however. Gandalf does make this interesting comment: Quote:
That would seem to say that each of the Istari might have a specialty of sorts. This is borne out by the fact that Gandalf's overt uses of his powers seem to mostly involve fire and explosions. As for the Mirror of Galadriel, I have no idea how it works, or indeed who made it. But Galadriel was one of the Noldor, who made a few marvellous things in their time. Perhaps the Mirrior used some of the same arts as the Palantíri, as its workings appear to be somewhat similar: showing a concentrating viewer visions of persons and events past, present, and possibly the future.
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#3 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 70
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Not just the Maia and Wizards and Ringbearers
The Elves were considered by men to be magical beings though the Elves seemed not to understand what men or hobbits meant by 'magic.'
The Elf blades that glowed in the presense of evil would be an example of their power as well as the special powers endowed to some weapons over most arms. Perhaps the Elves who saw the Light of the Trees in Aman were endowed with special powers that seemed magical to others. The Dark Elves seemed not to have this though the Dark Elf Eol must have learned something that allowed him to enpower the two black blades he forged, one of which was Glaurang's Bane.
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#4 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Muddy-earth
Posts: 1,297
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There is of course another source of magic, The Mouth of Sauron was said to have been a Sorcerer and so was The Witch-king in human form, this implies that even mortal men could learn magic. The dwarves seemingly had access to magic:
The dwarves of yore made mighty spells, While hammers fell like ringing bells. The source of Magic?
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. |
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#5 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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This is an old post of mine, speculating on the kinds of magic in Middle-earth...
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#6 |
Maundering Mage
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,645
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Davem, I had also thought of the word of command issue as Gandalf stated something to the effect at the doors of Moria that he has tried every word of command in every language spoken.
What about dwarf doors as magic. They open on their own accord when the password is spoken. Surely this is 'magical' in context.
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“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” |
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#7 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Muddy-earth
Posts: 1,297
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' I once knew every spell in all the tongue of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose'. Gandalf at The Doors of Durin, (Durin III, that is)
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. |
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#8 | |||
Laconic Loreman
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I always love threads about magic, simply because there seems to always be so much to say, but everything winds up being inconclusive.
![]() I love Galadriel's words to Sam about 'Elf-Magic' because it's just short, sweet, and straight to the point: Quote:
What's interesting about the Mirror of Galadriel, is after she poors the water, Galadriel breathes on it, and it seems like Galadriel's breath is what activates the mirror to show the visions. To diverge for a bit, Aragorn breathes and 'activates' the healing powers of the athelas: Quote:
![]() Galadriel also doesn't appear to like what she does, to be compared with 'the Enemy,' since the Enemy is deceiptful. In Letter 155 Tolkien goes a bit further about Galadriel's comment about the 'deceipts of the Enemy' but it's rather muddled, because Tolkien really doesn't define his terms. He talks about magia, and goeteia. 'Magia' is the physical magic, that has a visible effect in the 'real' world...so say Gandalf's shutting spell on the door. 'Goeteia', is psychological magic, take Sauron's use of psychological terror to make his servants sub-ordinate, and dominate their 'will.' Goeteia, seems to be more easily associated with evil, because it attempts to control others' minds, and that was the supremely evil motive in Tolkien's story: Quote:
And I will just leave off with this question, this is always one up to debate. Does a staff play a role, or have something to do, with the Istari's powers? ![]()
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#9 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Something close like Shire
Posts: 769
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I think much of the magic in M-E has to do with origins and "true names", to some extend or another. Some even speak of it out loud (Treebeard, thinking it very foolish and dangerous when Merry and Pippin give him their own, real names), while at other times it's plain without words (Bilbo, trying to avoid giving his name or any other information about himself to Smaug). Elves especially seem to know the origins or names of things in Middle-Earth and can therefore (I assume) communicate even with trees and such, though they usually don't wish to command or alter them, ie. use their magical powers (one exception might be the magical guard which Elrond had put on Rivendell; he could command the river waters to rise when need be). Their power comes from their language: they were the first to name all things in M-E.
This is also a valid point while considering the magic that involves crafting of various objects, such as the dwarven doors or elvish blades. This is an old, even ancient theme in mythologies. If you knew the origin of things, you could also control those things. This comes close to the aforementioned words of Command: it was possible - or so it was thought - to command things to happen, if you only knew the right words, that is the way things ought to happen or come to being. So maybe the forgers of "magical" objects just blended their knowledge of "origins" into one object? If they knew how to command iron and fire... voilà, a blade with fiery substance (Narsil/Anduril? ![]() Davem's definition/description of magic is interesting in this view also. Spell-casting (the telling of a new story which tries to alter the status quo) involves, in my opinion, the knowledge of how things were, are and should/could be. Only then it's possible for the spell-caster to change the story to his liking. The word of Command is not much different in it's definition: if you know the origin you can either softly persuade (by casting a spell) or command (casting the C-word). Even "friendly" objects can be commanded, if so structured (for example the gates/doors of Moria; it's interesting, btw., that it was the elves who needed to command the doors; the dwarves could push them open from the inside without any further ado). So, that's my 2 cents on the matter, at least for now (and even that took ages, I might add ![]()
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#10 | |
Wight of the Old Forest
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
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Quote:
Music and Magic in Middle Earth, by Mithalwen.
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Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI |
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#11 |
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Right here
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I would say that in the case of the Maiar, it is just them sort of "twisting" reality. In each case, they are not doing anything impossible, they are just making it occur then. They are not actually doing anything outside the general "creation" of Arda, but are rather manipulating it in the way they want. Fire happens anyway, and Gandalf is just making the fire come, but it is a natural occurrence, he is just giving it a push. This is probably because, as many people have said, he knows the origin of fire, he sang in the Song. With all of the magic, nothing "impossible" happens, it is just that they are causing it to happen prematurely.
It's probably the same with the elves and their "magical camouflage" cloaks. After all those thousands of years, they probably know trees and other natural features well enough to incorporate their appearance into the cloaks. And as for the swords and stuff, what about technology? I'm sure Aule taught the Noldor and the Dwarves a lot.
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#12 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Twilight Zone
Posts: 736
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Well you have the perfect example in The Hobbit. Beorn learned how to change his form which is magic. That is a great example of a human learning magic.
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#13 | |
Dead Serious
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Quote:
Firstly and most importantly, you have to assume Beorn is human. All things considered, he could just as well be a bear that changes into human form as a human who changes into bear form, if I may suggest the slightly silly. More seriously, Beorn might not be full-blooded human. Precisely where the non-human strain would come from, I wouldn't know--presumably not a normal bear!--but one could speculate on Bear-incarnate Maia taking human form and a Thingol/Melian type situation... in which case Beorn's "magic" would be analogous to Aragorn's: used by a human but descended from a non-human source. Secondly, you're assuming that Beorn learned it, which is not something I would assume at all, since I've always assumed it was an inherited trait (from those alleged ancestors driven from the Misty Mountains by the orks), particularly as it became a passed-on trait to his descendants--but notably with less potency in some generations, regardless of usage or character. Thirdly, you assume shape-shifting is magic. Now, this is actually probably a safe assumption to make, but it doesn't have to be necessarily so. It all depends, really, on how you define "magic" (which, of course, is the whole conundrum of this thread). Personally, although shape-shifting could be the effected outcome of a magic process, I don't see that it need to be magical necessarily--just like my car moving could be the outcome of people pushing it, it doesn't need to be someone pushing it in order for it to move.
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#14 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Twilight Zone
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Beorn was human, we do know that. He could have inherited it but I think he learned it. Earlier in this thread a quote was posted that related to Radagast.
Quote:
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#15 |
Sage & Onions
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
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Just on magic-y sort of things
remember the Wood elves seem to make Bilbo and the Dwarves fall asleep in a magical fashion. Were Gandalf's flashes and bangs (eg in Goblin Town) magic or gunpowder or both?
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#16 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
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Quote:
I'm inclined to think it was 'magic', as he was clearly able to create fire (as he did on Caradhras) simply by speaking a few well chosen words. And what of his encounter with the Ringwraiths on Weathertop? Quote:
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#17 | ||||
Laconic Loreman
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Good news Form, is Tolkien did write about many of those Beorn assumptions.
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Hopefully you don't mind my early morning silliness, but with that aside, it does fit with what Gloin says about Grimbeorn being the 'lord of many sturdy men.' I think Tolkien took from the berskergang stories, and put his own fantasy spin on it. To my knowledge Tolkien never used the word 'berserker,' but with Beorn he was definitely referencing one common meaning of the berserker ('bear-shirt' - the berserkers who would wear bear skins to battle). Plus, berserkers were of course known to work themselves up into this battle-fury, even some were said to be immune to weapons, like Beorn at the Battle of Five Armies ![]() Quote:
Quote:
I suspect Saruman enhanced his blasting devices with magic as well. I reference 155 again: Quote:
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