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11-02-2001, 08:34 AM | #1 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
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Myths Transformed
Since this barrow has been so slow lately, I thought I'd throw this into the mix. In the ancient history of the canon project, there was an extended discussion of the Myths Transformed section of Morgoth's Ring and the part that those writings should play in the canon. Flat earth v. round earth, the origin of Orcs and a central issue strongly related to all the others: are the Silmarillion tales Elvish or Numenorean in genesis?
I was reading a piece of the "Canon", i.e. works by JRRT published during his lifetime, which is generally overlooked: Tales of Tom Bombadil. The poems themselves are "Hobbitish" in origin or translations of works by Bilbo. However, the Introduction is, of course, by Tolkien in his full "I translated the Red Book" mode (fun reading in itself). In the intro, there is a reference to the tale of Turin and Mim, which was part of ME's then obscure history. JRRT describes the Turin/Mim tale as "Numenorean", not a translation from Elvish. This could be considered a clear statement of JRRT's intent in the Canon (note the upper case "C", meaning published during his lifetime)about a central Myths Transformed concept which may place the related revisions in play for canon (lower case "c" for our canon) treatment. Consider this an attempt to stir up the beehive. Thoughts?
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11-04-2001, 05:30 AM | #2 |
Deadnight Chanter
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buzzing
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11-05-2001, 08:07 PM | #3 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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As far as the Myths Transformed material relates to this project, I'd say it roughly divides into two groups: first that which deals with the change from flat to round earth and second, all the rest. The first we've decided not to use, and I think it would be unwise to reopen debate on that subject now that we've come so far.
The difficulty with the rest of the material is twofold: first, much of it stems from, or at least relates to, the new round earth version. Second, much of it is speculative. The real question for us is: what material can we reasonably integrate with the established narrative? These are my preliminary thoughts on some of the particular issues. Orc Origins Tolkien here goes through a number of ideas about the nature of Orcs, ranging from human to Maiar. His final (though quite uncertain) conclusion seems to be that Orcs are in the end indeed of Elvish origin. Even if we decide that this cannot be accepted as a definitive statement that Orcs were made from Elves, we certainly don't have a clear enough line of reasoning in this essay to make them mannish - especially considering that a mannish origin relies on a much earlier creation of men. I'd say we should leave this situation as it is in the '50s Silmarillion. Melkor's Dissemination of Power This is one element I think we can safely pick up from Myths Transformed. This is an element that does appear, albeit briefly, in the '77, when Morgoth returns to Middle-earth. I think perhaps we should lift these elements from the Myths Transformed material: at the Battle of the Powers, Melkor and Manwe both realize that Melkor himself has grown far less powerful; Melkor submits willingly, hoping to bring down Valinor from the inside; and perhaps also some mention of the dispersion of his power into the fabric of Arda (it would be nice if we could work in the "Morgoth's Ring" quote, but as this will be before Sauron's rings are introduced, the analogy doesn't seem quite appropriate. On the other hand, we do have to assume that he who reads the Silm. has read LotR.) Boldogs It would be very nice to incorporate something of this, but I'm not sure if there's any way. Numenorean vs. Elvish Tradition It's probably not best to make this explicit. The current project, at any rate, is not purported to be any actual document from Arda, but simply a coherent history of Middle-earth. No doubt the actual Quenta Silmarillion is of Numenorean origin. |
11-06-2001, 08:16 PM | #4 |
Seeker of the Straight Path
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Aiwendil: No doubt the actual Quenta Silmarillion is of
Numenorean origin. Lindil: what about Bilbo's Translations from the elvish and his Rivendell sources? As regards all else [seperating round worls from other MT elements and using what we can] A. has summed up my positions [as usual] better than I could myself. thanks for the prod Greyman lindil
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12-14-2001, 05:37 AM | #5 | |
Stonehearted Dwarf Smith
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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Im sorry but I have not had time to read the old thread about MT - but I stumpled on somthing in Aiwendils post - just after reading MT yesterday.
Aiwendil wrote: Quote:
Cheers T [ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: Telchar ]
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12-14-2001, 10:14 PM | #6 | |
Late Istar
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Quote:
[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: Aiwendil ] |
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08-02-2003, 03:17 PM | #7 | |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Quote:
Chris Tolkien wrote that his father's final decision was that orcs had a mannish origin.
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For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned ~Matthew 12:37 |
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08-02-2003, 10:52 PM | #8 |
Guest
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I have written 2 books.I wanted to change my mind on alot of the orgins of my charcters.I had to stop because it would take me up two hours to come up with something I liked.Then I would want to change it again.So maybe tolkien is the same way.
He decided on something only to later chance his mind. |
12-14-2004, 03:26 AM | #9 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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Quote:
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
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12-14-2004, 08:53 AM | #10 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,717
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Just a short remark to the topic starting issue: The story of Túrin and Mîm refered to in The Adventures of Tom Bambadil is with out any question Narn î Chin Húrin written by Dírhavel. Even if all the rest of what became Queta Silmarillion were of Elvish origin this praticular Lay was not. Thus it is hard to extract any such decision out of the mention of the manish origin of the Túrin story.
Respectfully Findegil |
12-14-2004, 10:18 AM | #11 | ||
The Kinslayer
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Quote:
From The Adventures of Tom Bombadil: The Hoard Quote:
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12-15-2004, 08:32 AM | #12 | |
King's Writer
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Oops! It seems my post was very cryptic. In addition I have a bit misread Mithadans firstpost. But any way, I will try to explain it beter this time.
What Mithadan reffered to in his post #1 was the following passage from the introduction of The Adventures of Tom Bombadil: Quote:
"The tale of Turin and Mim" is clearly a reference to the Turin Saga, meaning the story of of Húrins children in a general sense not any particular version of it. My misreading was now that I did only associate "Númenorean tale" with the wider sense of "manish tradtion" not with the restricted one of "númenorean tradition". In view of this I wanted to add the fact, that how ever the Narn was traded, it had in Tolkiens view an manish author. That fact can be learned from The History of Middle-Earth; volume 11: The War of the JEwels; part 3: The Wanderings of Húrin and other writings not forming part of the Quenta Silmarillion; chapter II: Ælfwine and Dírhaval. Nonthless does that not contradict the point that Mithadan did make: The Introduction of The Adventures of Tom Bombadil provide us with a clear statment, that the Turin Saga was preserved in a númenorean tradition. But in view of what The Hoard says one must wonder if the "Númenorean Tale of Turin and Mim" was really that acurate. Looking in addition to the later statments in Ælfwine and Dírhaval I wonder if their were not other traditions of the Turin Saga that were beter preserved than the "Númenorean Tale". Also the Intorducion said that it "depends on the lore of Rivendell, Elvish and Númenorean". Is that not a statment, that there were Elvish tradtions of the end of the First Age in Rivendell that some Hobbits did learn from? Respectfully Findegil |
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04-22-2010, 10:20 AM | #13 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
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Quote:
Tolkien's parenthetical note 'in prose' is interesting here, for Dírhaval wrote in verse and his work was (according to the text) rendered into prose by Elfwine. So I would guess that Dírhaval remains along with his version, but the prose version is 'now' possibly made by an unknown Númenórean. In any case the measure of accuracy of number 14 may be due to its writer (the author of 14), rather than the source, containing only echoes of the lore in the sources available, for whatever reason. Quote:
The living sources can be Elves, but I wonder how much of the written sources were Elvish. At the end of note 17 to the Shibboleth, Tolkien concludes (concerning the compiled Silmarillion, and the four great tales in prose, and seemingly the account of Feanor and his making of the Silmarils). 'All however are 'Mannish' works'. Also (for another example): 'The cosmogonic myths are Númenórean, blending Elven-lore with human myth and imagination' (note 2, Myths Transformed Text I). Not that the following necessarily represents the transmission of all texts! but it's interesting that Tolkien's preamble for The Annals of Aman (AAm* version here) states that Rúmil made the Annals: '... and they were held in memory by the Exiles. Those parts which we learned and remembered were thus set down in Númenor before the Shadow fell upon it.' Thus memory is key (though there was interaction between the Elves of the West and Númenor, for instance, after the fall of Beleriand, in any case). The Grey Annals and Quenta Silmarillion seem to have remained in 'Elfwine mode' compared to this version of Annals of Aman, but we have these interesting comments concerning Elvish memory from The Shibboleth of Feanor as well: Quote:
And with respect to the shape of the world, generally speaking, in my opinion Akallabêth represents a 'mixed' account, with the idea of the World made round (instead of being round from the start) being a Mannish notion. Although I'm sure some disagree with this last opinion, at least Edit: I just noticed this interesting change as well, to Quenta Silmarillion (the LQ2 text): 'Of their lives was made the Lay of Leithian, Release from Bondage, which is the longest save one of the songs of [the Noldor >] Númenor concerning the world of old;...' From: The Last Chapters Of The Quenta Silmarillion, The War Of The Jewels Last edited by Galin; 04-26-2010 at 09:11 AM. |
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