LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 09 - Flotsam and Jetsam

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The title of this chapter actually suggests a shipwreck – Merriam-Webster Online defines “flotsam” as: “floating wreckage of a ship or its cargo” and “jetsam” as: “the part of a ship, its equipment, or its cargo that is cast overboard to lighten the load in time of distress and that sinks or is washed ashore”. At first glimpse, that would seem strange terminology for a chapter that takes place at a tower in the middle of land, but we find out why it’s appropriate later on.

Much of the chapter consists of Merry and Pippin’s narrative of the destruction of Isengard by the Ents; as we’ve read in other chapters such as “The White Rider” and “The Council of Elrond”, Tolkien uses this technique to catch up on happenings afterwards. It’s a tricky way to tell a story, but it does have the advantage of keeping up suspense in not finding out what happens elsewhere, as well as keeping the storyline flowing without breaking away from another strand of the tale.

The Three Hunters stay with the two hobbits. We see another score-keeping by Gimli – his effort in hunting Merry and Pippin is finally rewarded by food and drink (‘The score is much reduced.’ ) and pipeweed plus pipe (‘It leaves me deep in your debt.’ ). Merry and Pippin alternate in the telling of their tale; it might be interesting to see if we can detect individual differences in their respective story-telling.

Here are a few of the things that I noticed in re-reading the chapter; I will just mention them and hope for detailed discussion by many of you!

Aragorn – Strider is back, was always there, belongs to both Gondor and the North

Pippin and Merry’s knives are given back to them – crucial for later developments, especially Merry’s

Huorns – the only positive appearance of impenetrable shadow

Half-orcs – another favorite object of discussion

Orthanc – made by wizardry older and stronger than Saruman’s

Aragorn’s wise words, “Wormtongues may be found in other houses than King Théoden’s”, but his wrong conclusion about Saruman’s evil no longer being afoot – an advance clue to the Scouring of the Shire.

Strangely, one sentence by Gandalf, “Wherever I have been, I am back.” reminds me of another similar quote: “No matter where you go, there you are.” (attributed to Buckaroo Banzai, as far as I know)

Plenty of ingredients in the pot – let it simmer and discuss away!

[Lalwendë]

'Once he was as great as his fame made him. His knowledge was deep, his thought was subtle, and his hands marvellously skilled; and he had a power over the minds of others. The wise he could persuade, and the smaller folk he could daunt. That power he certainly still keeps. There are not many in Middle-earth that I should say were safe, if they were left alone to talk with him, even now when he has suffered a defeat. Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel, perhaps, now that his wickedness has been laid bare, but very few others."

This is what Aragorn says of Saruman. He not only mentions his intellect and his skill in craft, but makes a point in highlighting his 'power over the minds of others'. And he says that Saruman, despite his downfall, will still retain that power. His words betray the possibility that Saruman may at one time have had power over the minds of anyone, but that now that his reasons and motives have been made clear, there are just three people who would be able to resist: Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel. Is it coincidence that these three also bear the three Elven rings? To me, this is clearly hinting at Saruman's use of osanwe and that the Three Rings do indeed possess some power related to this. And are there any other people who could resist Saruman's voice? It seems that the Ents can resist, but how and why?

[Kuruharan]

And are there any other people who could resist Saruman's voice?

In the company of others, yes, as we will discover. However, I don't know about how the individual in question would have managed alone.

I think Ents were more resistant because they are rather...well...different. Saruman may not have known how to appeal to them.

Memories of chopping and burning probably did not help matters.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

It seems that the Ents can resist, but how and why?

During their assault on Isengard, I should imagine that they were not in much of a mood to listen to Saruman, even had he had the presence of mind to try to appeal to them. It is possible that, once the assault was over and the Ents settled down to guard the Tower, Saruman would have attempted to use his "voice" on them. However, Ents are, as we know, not the most hasty of beings and are certainly not moved into precipitative action by mere words (as Merry and Pippin discovered). It is likely, therefore, that in these circumstances they would have taken their time to consider Saruman's words, thus negating their immediacy and therefore, possibly, their "magic".

[the phantom]

It seems that the Ents can resist

Saruman may not have known how to appeal to them.

they would have taken their time to consider Saruman's words, thus negating their immediacy and therefore, possibly, their "magic"

No, no, and no.

From ROTK, Many Partings (Gandalf speaking to Treebeard)-

He had the poison of his voice, and I guess that he persuaded you, even Treebeard, knowing the soft spot in your heart.

Ents couldn't resist. After Gandalf left, Treebeard was "left alone to talk with him" and Saruman talked his way out of captivity.

[Lathriel]

I don't have the book with me right now but in this chapter I get a sense that events could have turned out very differently for saruman. If he hadn't been so hungry for power he could have been a great ally. Also I feel pity for him as wel as anger.

Pity because he was such a great man and has fallen so far.He could have become even greater if he had not changed sides and betrayed the west.

Anger because he destroyed much that was beautiful and good. Also he caused his neighbours much grief. The ents lost some of their herd and the people of Rohan lost their prince Theodred.(PLus many of the Rohirrim and soldiers)

Of course many of these emotions reach their peak in the next chapter but in "Flotsam adn Jetsam" they are beginning to develop.

In this chapter Ents are shown to be more then kind creatures. It is like a warning. Don't try to battle against somebody whose full strength you don't know. That was a major mistake of Saruman's. He obviously thought he could dismiss the ents and that he only had to worry about Rohan. On top of that he also underestimated their strength and thought htat it wasn;t important. Thus he was not prepared for the march of thre ents and this is what caused his downfall.

[Boromir88]

And are there any other people who could resist Saruman's voice?

I would say Gimli, because "they (Dwarves) are not evil by nature, and few ever served the Enemy." The dwarves were a resiliant race and basically told Sauron to bug off, despite being offered riches, land, and an "I'll leave you alone" pass. It is also Gimli who first rejects Saruman in the next chapter, as well as the previous chapters we see his fond hate for the man. Now if you give it some time, Saruman might get to Gimli. But I would say if you don't restrain Gimli he'd try to chop off Saruman's head (or legs) before Saruman corrupted him.

[the phantom]

I understand what you are saying, Boro, but if Gimli was "left alone to talk with him" (with "talk" restricting him to speaking with his voice- i.e. no axe to change the subject) I doubt he'd last any longer than Treebeard.

[Encaitare]

'He let Wormtongue go, and he limped off through the arch, with us close behind, until he came inside the ring and could see all the floods that lay between him and Orthanc. Then he turned to us.

'"Let me go away!" he whined. "Let me go away! My messages are useless now."'

This just makes me curious... where did Grima think he was going to go? Gondor? Bree? He doesn't seem the type to make it on his own in the wild.

'An angry Ent is terrifying. Theyir fingers, and their toes, just freeze onto rock; and they tear it up like break crust. It was like watching the work of great tree-roots in a hundred years, all packed into a few moments.'

'I thought that they [the Ents] had really been roused before; but I was wrong. I saw what it was like at last. It was staggering. They roared and boomed and trumpeted, until stones began to crack and fall at the mere noise of them.'

We all know that Tolkien was a lover of trees and rather fancied the idea of nature striking back. The second quote, though is very interesting to me; I don't think I noticed it before. It is as though multiple forces of nature, headed by the Ents, are striking back against Isengard's Fire. There are the Ents and Huorns(Earth), the Isen (Water), and the very sounds the Ents make in their fury (Air/Wind).

Ents couldn't resist. After Gandalf left, Treebeard was "left alone to talk with him" and Saruman talked his way out of captivity.

Beat me to it, Phantom. Although, it did take a while for Saruman to persuade Treebeard, so perhaps since the Ents are so ancient and decidedly unhasty, it takes longer for anything to affect them.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I would say Gimli, because "they (Dwarves) are not evil by nature, and few ever served the Enemy." The dwarves were a resiliant race and basically told Sauron to bug off, despite being offered riches, land, and an "I'll leave you alone" pass

I noticed that Gimli was one who resisted Saruman's words, but then I'm in danger of skipping to the next chapter here, so I'll try to resist going too far into that. But if we think about the Rings of power, then it was the Nine which were most effective, corrupting the minds of Men, and the Three may have proven to be the downfall of the Elves if they had not been so quick in perceiving Sauron's intentions for the One. Yet the Seven did not have such terrible effects as might have been expected. If the Rings were made to have some kind of use in osanwe, thought transference, then perhaps the Dwarves do not possess this ability, either lacking it to some extent or even entirely. If so, then it might explain why Saruman's voice had no effect on Gimli.

The interesting thing about how Saruman eventually tricks Treebeard into releasing him is that this is preceeded by Treebeard relating many long tales to the captive Saruman; was Treebeard trying his own form of thought control here? It's certainly amusing to think of the 'hasty' Saruman being driven mad by long, rambling Entish tales. But the Ents do resist Saruman when they arrive at Isengard, in fact they chase him:

"When the Ents had reduced a large part of the southern walls to rubbish, and what was left of his people had bolted and deserted him, Saruman fled in a panic. He seems to have been at the gates when we arrived: I expect he came to watch his splendid army march out. When the Ents broke their way in, he left in a hurry. They did not spot him at first. But the night had opened out, and there was a great light of stars, quite enough for Ents to see by, and suddenly Quickbeam gave a cry: "The tree-killer, the tree-killer!" Quickbeam is a gentle creature, but he hates Saruman all the more fiercely for that: his people suffered cruelly from orc-axes. He leapt down the path from the inner gate, and he can move like a wind when he is roused. There was a pale figure hurrying away in and out of the shadows of the pillars, and it had nearly reached the stairs to the tower-door. But it was a near thing. Quickbeam was so hot after him, that he was within a step or two of being caught and strangled when he slipped in through the door.

Aside from being a scene I would love to see, I like this passage as it shows that even Saruman with his powers cannot do much more than run when faced with a furious tree giant. I wonder did he know he would not have time to try and charm the Ent after him? Did he know that Ents may take some considerable time to charm? Treebeard must have been difficult to charm, as he cannot have let Saruman leave for quite a long time. Perhaps the clue is in the fact that Saruman had never accounted for the latent strength of the Ents and did not know what to do when they attacked his stronghold, and maybe he 'learned' something of how to talk to an Ent through Treebeard spending so long telling him stories. Thinking about how the Elves were the ones to teach the Ents language, they must have had a different way of thinking to most other creatures, and maybe Ents (and Dwarves), because of their different origins to Elves and Men were more resistant to osanwe.

[the phantom]

But the Ents do resist Saruman when they arrive at Isengard, in fact they chase him:

I would not even begin to classify that as resisting Saruman- certainly not in the context of the quote in question-

There are not many in Middle-earth that I should say were safe, if they were left alone to talk with him

The ents were not there to "talk". They were breaking and throwing things and trying to chase Saruman down. Plus there were many of them, far from "alone".

This event does not relate to the quote at all.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

It seems that it takes Saruman some time to get to the ents. Even though they "resist" him at first, they're not really listening at all, they're too focused on their own purposes (namely destroying Isengard). It takes Saruman a while to get Treebeard to listen to him; one gets the sense that though Saruman has been gone from Isengard for a while by the time the remainder of the fellowship arrives back there in ROTK, he did stay there for a pretty good chunk of time. Perhaps Treebeard's taletelling is a way of taking up the time so that Saruman doesn't have opportunity to "bombard" him with his voice. Treebeard is pretty sharp, he may have known that Saruman's vocal prowess was a danger to him, and thus been able to avoid it longer. Once he starts listening and actually paying attention, it seems like he's as vulnerable as the next guy.

Sophia

[Lalwendë]

One Ent alone, as has been shown, could eventually be broken down by Saruman's words, but it did take some considerable time. I think maybe Saruman had to listen to Treebeard, to try to find a way into his head and to learn the right words to use to persuade him to release him. But what I am trying to get at is whether he even attempts anything while the Ent attack is underway. There is no evidence of this, and he clearly does not have any problem in dealing with groups of people - as shown in the next chapter. So is it his fear of the violence of the attack which stops him from attempting anything? Or is he simply unable to do anything, as he does not know the way into the minds of the Ents?

The following line shows how Saruman was totally unprepared for what was coming - he was in fact dealing with his own army at this point and took no account of the other 'army' on his doorstep:

"If Saruman had heard it, he would be a hundred miles away by now, even if he had had to run on his own legs," said Pippin

When the attack happens it clearly catches him off his guard and is something totally unexpected:

I don't know what Saruman thought was happening; but anyway he did not know how to deal with it. His wizardry may have been falling off lately

And the following lines suggest that at one time, at least, Saruman may have been able to persuade the Ents in some way (whether in a placatory or sneaky way is not clear) but it seems he may have mistakenly disregarded them:

"The Ents are safe," said Pippin. "He seems at one time to have got round them, but never again. And anyway he did not understand them; and he made the great mistake of leaving them out of his calculations. He had no plan for them, and there was no time to make any, once they had set to work.

Saruman and Treebeard at one time used to converse together, but this is now far in the past, and it also seems that Treebeard was in some way aware that he had been 'conned' by Saruman many years before. This may have given the Ents, including Treebeard, some knowledge of how Saruman's mind and words worked. But it seems Saruman did not necessarily listen to the Ents, and when it came time for him to defend his stronghold he simply 'did not have the words' to be able to do this; and when he wanted to escape captivity, again he lacked the right words and it took him a long time to learn them.

So the Ents do resist; the very act of their pulling apart Isengard is resistance. Saruman was once their friend, and they would have been very aware of how dangerous he was, so to carry out this act was risky for the Ents. Was it simple fear that prevented Saruman from striking back, or was it that he did not have the words to do it? He resorts in the end to his 'conventional' defences in firing up his underground forges, so he does want to defend Isengard, but these defences were clearly not made to withstand an Ent attack (as they have little effect), which suggests that this was not something he expected, and therefore, something which he could not deal with in the way he would usually deal with an enemy. This is all very fortuitous for the Ents, as they have taken a risk in attacking Isengard, and it is unlucky for Saruman, who had not considered this possible threat.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I was struck by how "Flotsam and Jetsam" foreshadows certain wider events in the story and also sets the stage for specific things that will happen in the very next chapter. Sorry for bringing up future events, but sometimes themes are interconnected, and it's easier to discuss them this way.

Lalwende's earlier quote was a prime example of this:

'Once he [ i.e. Saruman] was as great as his fame made him. His knowledge was deep, his thought was subtle, and his hands marvellously skilled; and he had a power over the minds of others. The wise he could persuade, and the smaller folk he could daunt. That power he certainly still keeps. There are not many in Middle-earth that I should say were safe, if they were left alone to talk with him, even now when he has suffered a defeat. Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel, perhaps, now that his wickedness has been laid bare, but very few others."

This explanation is critical for the next chapter when Gandalf and crew (minus the hobbits) will go to speak with Saruman. Only by having this advance piece of information can the reader understand Theoden's plight when Saruman lures him with tempting words, and the King seems close to succumbing. Theoden's difficulty in responding to Saruman is not due to any personal weakness, but is a confirmation of what we’ve already learned: “The Voice” can be virtually impossible to resist, even by the great and wise.

As Theoden, Eomer, and Gandalf leave to make plans with Treebeard, Legolas remarks that “the great ones have gone to discuss high matters”. Interestingly, that group does not include the heir to the throne of Gondor and Arnor. As if to reinforce the fact that Aragorn wears a “different hat” in this chapter, Pippin gleefully declares that “Strider the Ranger” has returned when he sees his friend smoking pipeweed. Why is this? Why does Aragorn not assert his kingly voice as he does, for example, in the Palantir chapter? The absence of Aragorn's "kingly voice" not only holds true for this chapter but also the next one. Although Aragorn will be physically included in the group that visits Saruman, he says not a single word in Saruman’s presence….indeed he says nothing in the entire chapter.

Why is Aragorn restricted to “official silence” in both these chapters? First, I think he genuinely wanted to stay and talk privately to Merry and Pippin since he and Gimli had chased them over hill and dale, and he genuinely cares about their well being. And I’m certainly glad he did because the conversations with the hobbits were the most delightful parts of the chapter for me.

But I think it’s more than that. This is not the time to be trotting out a future King of Gondor. They all stand within the eye of Sauron’s palantir, which is surely fixed on Isengard. Therefore, anything they can do to downplay Aragorn’s future role is probably wise. There is another reason as well. Theoden and Treebeard have been most hurt by Saruman and are “in charge” of lands that he has threatened. By pulling back, Aragorn shows he respects Rohan and is not trying to impede their legitimate interests and plans. This forebearance will help Theoden and Eomer to trust him as King of Gondor.

Finally, there are two instances of long-term foreshadowing. The most obvious is the discovery of pipeweed. The hobbits gleefully accept their treasure without thinking about what this could really mean. Aragorn smells a possible rat, and notes that “Wormtongue’s may be found in other houses than King Theoden’s”….a clear reference to Lotho.

Second, isn’t it amazing that both Saruman and Sauron owe their defeat to the same basic deficiency: a rigidity in thinking and lack of imagination, a lack of respect for those who oppose them? Sauron can not imagine that anyone would have the audacity to come waltzing in to Mordor under his nose. Saruman strips Isengard of troops because he can’t believe anyone is left who poses a serious threat. Sauron knows a bit about Hobbits, but he does not really respect them as possible enemies. Saruman does exactly the same with the Ents. Pippin talks about Saruman’s shortsightedness. Ironically, many of Pippin's words could also be applied to Sauron in terms of Frodo and Sam:

‘The Ents are safe,’ said Pippin. ‘He seems at one time to have got round them. but never again. And anyways he did not understand them; and he made the great mistake of leaving them out of his calculations. He had no plan for them, and there was no time to make any, once they had set to work….’

I think it’s equally fair to say that Sauron did not “understand” Sam and Frodo; he had not the slightest idea what would motivate two hobbits to creep into Mordor. And he certainly had no plans for such a contingency.

[Kuruharan]

Theoden and Treebeard have been most hurt by Saruman and are “in charge” of lands that he has threatened. By pulling back, Aragorn shows he respects Rohan and is not trying to impede their legitimate interests and plans.

This is particularly true in light of the fact that just a few days before Aragorn had been politely reminded that he was not King of Rohan.

[the phantom]

whether he even attempts anything while the Ent attack is underway. There is no evidence of this...So is it his fear of the violence of the attack which stops him from attempting anything? Or is he simply unable to do anything, as he does not know the way into the minds of the Ents?

I believe the first reason you gave. His death is mere seconds away. It is not the time to try talking. He never had the opportunity to use his voice.

Was it simple fear that prevented Saruman from striking back, or was it that he did not have the words to do it?

I believe he had the words but was unable to use them. This is an opinion, but I believe that had Saruman shown up at the beginning of the entmoot that he would've used his power of speech and smoothed everything over and the ents would've gone back to their groves.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

I was struck by how "Flotsam and Jetsam" foreshadows certain wider events in the story and also sets the stage for specific things that will happen in the very next chapter. -Child

I think another example of foreshadowing, or at least of parallel events, in this chapter is the issue of Pippin's brooch (as referenced in Kuruharan's sig). To quote the line in context:

'And here also is your brooch, Pippin,' said Aragorn. 'I have kept it safe, for it is a very precious thing.'

'I know,' said Pippin. 'It was a wrench to let it go; but what else could I do?'

'Nothing else,' answered Aragorn. 'One who cannot cast away a treasure at need is in fetters. You did rightly.'

I realise the context and the significance of the treasures in question is completely different, but I have always contrasted Pippin's ability to cast away his brooch with his inability to reliquish the Palantir to Gandalf, and later with Frodo's inability to let go of the Ring. One could even cast backward in time and find a slightly more comparable situation with Thorin and the Arkenstone.

No matter the nature of the treasure, Tolkien always portrays it to be the better part of wisdom to be able to let go.

Sophia

[drigel]

I look at the ent vs Saruman discussion another way. I propose that it was more of the entish character that was the dominant influence in letting Saruman go. Of all creatures of ME, ents were the least likely to cage any creature for any period of time. Something that Saruman might likely know and use against them granted, but the ents letting him go was IMO was inevitable.

[Encaitare]

drigel -- Why do you think this? I would disagree, since the Ents have every reason to despise Saruman. He did, after all, fell and burn trees, some of whuch were "friends" to the Ents. I don't think that they would take pity on him without some influence.

[drigel]

Hey,

An enemy no question- Saruman deserved punishment. But (to me), we are thinking as humans in this regard. In our world, there is punishment, justice, etc. But I hesitate to lay that on the ent universe. I think they were there to Stop something, not to Punish. In fact, I will go out on a limb (hehe), and say that, an ent would naturally (or by its nature) not harm any creature, other than an orc, or possibly as self defense.

But to your question: Because captivitiy of a creature is such an affront to nature, I believe that for an ent, it would be a totally alien concept. Much like Bombadil, ents as wardens or even gatekeepers would really make lousy employees.

if that makes sense at all.....

[davem]

I think what struck me most powerfully in reading this chapter over was Tolkien's barely suppressed exultation at the Ent's frenzy in destroying Isengard. The story almost seems to get away from him & he just indulges in what was clearly a dream he had long had of nature taking its revenge on the Machine. If it could only happen on the page then he would make sure it happened in a most spectacular & memorable way. The Ents are 'roused' & they become monstrous & 'dangerous'. This is not bumbling, rambling Treebeard, this is nature unleashed, taking its pent up anger & fury out on the one who had tried to destroy it. Its something we're beginning to witness all around us & to find ourselves on the recieving end of. Does that mean there's something of Saruman in us, in our own worship of the Machine & our contempt for the natural world?

Its as if Tolkien is saying this very thing about us & warning us of our inevitable fate. We've seen devastating floods sweep away our safe, controlled little societies too often of late. Nature is belittled, destroyed, subjected to our will for so long & then comes the backlash, & it's ugly & horrific.

Yet...

What we're witnessing is thebattle we as humans have always been involved in since the dawn of civilisation. Our species vs 'nature'. Talk of 'living in harmony' with nature is delusional. We don't, & can't - that's our tragedy. Our success as a species is based on dominating our environment & wild, uncontrolled nature is a threat to our survival - oh it looks beautiful & is awe-inspiring to visit, but the wilderness is not our home any longer. Civilisation, the Machine, is us, & to that extent we are all little Sarumans, & let us not forget that Saruman himself was merely a 'little' Sauron.

We may exult over the victory of the Ents, but would we wish for their total victory over the Machine? We may side with Tolkien if we don't think too deeply about the implications, but its the Sarumans who have given us nice homes with central heating, cars, TV & computers. Even the copies of Lord of the Rings we've been reading have required trees to be cut down in their millions.

We mustn't be hypocrites. The West made use of the Ents to achieve their goal of defeating Sauron, but nobody was, or more importantly is, 'entirely on their side'. We have seen the 'Last March of the Ents' & it was a temporary victory, Their part in the Great War of the Ring will be remembered - long after they are gone.

Why does Treebeard eventually release Saruman from Orthanc to do more 'mischief'? Who knows. But that's what happened. 'Nature' released us, Homo sapiens, from our long 'captivity' in the trees, & we stood erect & set forth to build civilisations, & create our art, our music, our science. Ever since its been trying to swallow us up again into its long dream, & we've been fighting to stay 'awake'.

In this chapter 'civilisation' - its worst aspects admittedly - has been swept away, but the righteous fury of the Ents can only replace it with the 'dreams of trees'.

Its a sobering chapter, this one. Food for thought......

[drigel]

hoom, hrum, hoom - Ill take a bowl of that!

[Encaitare]

Interesting stuff there, davem.

The whole situation is like seeing an old chain-link fence or car sitting there all rusty and overgrown with weeds. There are twisted vines engulfing the metal, and maybe a few flowers growing there, and the grass has grown up so high that you can't see most of the tires anymore. (This is a much less extreme and less violent comparision, though!)

Nature has a slow, steady way of going about things, but as long as it is still present, it will fight back. We see dandelions growing through cracks in the sidewalk, a bit of chaos thrown in to mess with the order. Sometimes tree roots grow under that same sidewalk and displace it.

Our success as a species is based on dominating our environment & wild, uncontrolled nature is a threat to our survival - oh it looks beautiful & is awe-inspiring to visit, but the wilderness is not our home any longer.

The glorification of wild, violent, uncontrolled nature was common in the Romantic period, just as heavy machinery was beginning to make a presence. In order to "rebel" against this industrialization, certain artists and writers used their talents to make nature out to be an untamable force, as we here see it to be. Whether they thought that this state of unpredictability was actually something that humans ought to live among is not made certain as far as I can recall. Then again, half of them were quite mad, although they made some wonderful work.

Fangorn is not a hospitable place for most, and neither is much of nature for the average person. I, for one, am quite sure that I could not get along very well on my own in the woods. The Ents just want to be left alone, it seems, something that sounds easy enough in theory. But, to reflect it to our own society, as davem said, we've oppressed nature for most of our history.

Does that mean there's something of Saruman in us, in our own worship of the Machine & our contempt for the natural world?

To a small extent, I would say yes. Fortunately, I think most of us have some degree of respect for nature. Yet we are a society which loves technology and jumps all over the chance to keep up with the Joneses and get that big-screen TV too. We depend so much on order with all our technology that anything which beyond our control tends to irk us. It's like SpM's sig: "Everyone always complains about the weather, but no one ever does anything about it." We feel like we, as the dominant race, ought to have full control over our environment. What we forget is that there are older things than us inhabiting our world, and greater forces at work, and this was Saruman's mistake too.

[Kuruharan]

Then again, half of them were quite mad

And quite drunk too...

What we're witnessing is thebattle we as humans have always been involved in since the dawn of civilisation. Our species vs 'nature'. Talk of 'living in harmony' with nature is delusional. We don't, & can't - that's our tragedy.

Some of the Native Americans were able to live in harmony with the environment (or at least comparative harmony). I'm not suggesting that it was the idyllic utopian paradise that some would like to believe it was, but still...

[The Saucepan Man]

... to correct a possible misapprehension.

Originally Posted by Encaitare

It's like SpM's sig: "Everyone always complains about the weather, but no one ever does anything about it." We feel like we, as the dominant race, ought to have full control over our environment.

Although it might have originally been intended that way (it is attributed, I believe to Mark Twain), my own reading of my sig is the opposite. We all complain about the weather, but (despite big words) there seem to be few concerted efforts to mitigate the potentially disastrous consequences of our effect on it.

While I am not totally sold on the prophecies of doom in connction with global warming (as the evidence goes both ways), it is certainly food for thought. And davem's comments about this Chapter and what it has to say on the issue also provides food for thought.

[Encaitare]

We all complain about the weather, but (despite big words) there seem to be few concerted efforts to mitigate the potentially disastrous consequences of our effect on it.

Hmm.. different interpretations, completely different meanings. I took it to mean that we're control freaks; it seems you take it to mean that in this case we're just apathetic or ignorant. Do correct me if I'm wrong!

I didn't even get it exactly right, either... that's what I get for being lazy and going by memory.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Davem -

What a great post! When I read this chapter (and a number of others as well) similar thoughts have crossed my mind.

Does that mean there's something of Saruman in us, in our own worship of the Machine & our contempt for the natural world?

I'm of two minds on this. I would like to say no, but I am leaning towards a yes. Still things aren't totally one-sided.

Believe me when I tell you that it used to be even worse than it is today at least in terms of awareness of the kind of danger a Saruman poses. Back in the 50s except for lone voices crying out (and Tolkien was one of a scant few in literary/academic circles) most people were simply unaware of the extent of ecological damage. If there was one aspect of the books that attracted 'sixties college students, it was the sense that Middle-earth was a living, breathing world and the author cared about what happened to it. That seemed so different than what was going on at the time.

In many respects things have improved. There are laws on the books for one thing. Not perfect ones but better than nothing. There are groups trying to protect what's still there, and some species have actually fared better than in the past. Yet, at the same time, the areas of green continue to shrink, acres of rain forests are being burnt to the ground every day, and the list of endangered species grows. Many places of sanctuary I knew when I was a kid have been taken over by cement, something I personally lament.

I know these questions are complex: it's not always so open and shut. How can someone from an industrialized country that's been blessed with comparative wealth look 'poorer' countries in the eye and demand that they wait and find another way that is 'less exploitive'? Sometimes it seems easier just to follow a Saruman.

Sadly, then, I do think Saruman is alive and kicking. When I read LotR it's not Sauron who sends chills up my back. It's Saruman. I have trouble imagining a Sauron taking over things completely in our modern world. I have absolutely no problem imagining a Saruman or two or even more....in government, business, education, and a dozen other situations.

Tolkien was not the most optomistic man in the world, and I can empathize with that. Sometimes it seems that nothing will really change unless we transform our values. And what is the likelihood of that happening? But, if it doesn't happen, what a price there is to pay in the long run. We've already lost so much of the wonder, and every time we hack down a tree, I think we lose another piece. And that lesson is part of the tale Tolkien was weaving in this chapter.

[Lalwendë]

An angry Ent is terrifying. Their fingers, and their toes, just freeze onto rock; and they tear it up like bread-crust. It was like watching the work of great tree-roots in a hundred years, all packed into a few moments.

"They pushed, pulled, tore, shook, and hammered; and clang-bang, crash-crack, in five minutes they had these huge gates just lying in ruin; and some were already beginning to eat into the walls, like rabbits in a sand-pit.

I like how Tolkien has used some of the known effects of nature on the built environment, but depicted them 'speeded up', showing how the might of an organic structure can eventually destroy that which we have built and assumed to be solid and permanent. Anyone who has seen the effects of certain aggressive plant species (Virginia Creeper, Ground Elder, Bamboo etc.) which have mistakenly been brought into the urban environment will understand this. The description of the destruction also has echoes in how the effects of ice can erode and crumble rock. But it is the image of Ents eating the walls which is most disturbing!

Originally Posted by Child

Sadly, then, I do think Saruman is alive and kicking. When I read LotR it's not Sauron who sends chills up my back. It's Saruman. I have trouble imagining a Sauron taking over things completely in our modern world. I have absolutely no problem imagining a Saruman or two or even more....in government, business, education, and a dozen other situations.

I don't have trouble imagining a Sauron, though thankfully I can only think of one leader whose heart was so blackened he resembled Sauron. I think his evil is more of an absolute, symbolic evil (yet very real in terms of Middle Earth), the like of which is thankfully rare to find in our own world, certainly coupled with the power to realise that evil. The evil of Saruman is all around us however, in those who seek power within their own sphere of life, to 'empire build', to manipulate and take advantage. This is reflected in the text. We never physically 'meet' Sauron, but we do meet Saruman, as do many of the characters; he is very much 'real' and all the more frightening for it.

Is the ecological message of LotR still as strongly heard today as it was 30 years ago? Sometimes it seems that this message is not as important to readers as it once was, and I feel disappointed in that because it is more important then ever. So I feel encouraged when I read comments like this from Encaitare:

Originally Posted by Encaitare

We feel like we, as the dominant race, ought to have full control over our environment. What we forget is that there are older things than us inhabiting our world, and greater forces at work, and this was Saruman's mistake too.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Quote: Encaitare:
Then again, half of them were quite mad


And quite drunk too...

And possibly taking large amounts of laudanum...

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Child of the Seventh Age

Sadly, then, I do think Saruman is alive and kicking. When I read LotR it's not Sauron who sends chills up my back. It's Saruman. I have trouble imagining a Sauron taking over things completely in our modern world. I have absolutely no problem imagining a Saruman or two or even more....in government, business, education, and a dozen other situations.

...and in my own self. Unless, following Mr. Moody, 'constant vigilance' button is not turned 'on' most of the time.

Can not recall exact quote, but the whole Saruman/Sauron comparison reminded me of C.S.Lewis and Screwtape's advice. It ran along lines similar to the following: 'there is no need for great and spectacular sin to get sinner to our father below (i.e. Hell) - repeated practice of common everyday sins is sufficient'. And self-righteous confidence of "Surely, that's me who's doing things right" is the key to open the process up. (U.S. intelligence investing into Bin-Laden, German bourgeoisie backing up Hitler - paragons of 'means/ends' confusion, philosophy of 'we'll always be able to get rid of this unreliable partner later')

General flaw of human outlook. Let me set up my neighbour just once today. Not that good it will do him, but it will be profitable for me, and that's what counts, eh? Let me just have this new car today, and to heck with what happens to oil resources tomorrow. It extends to our own hröar even - part of nature, aren't they? Let me smoke and enjoy (my sad case here) this cigarette now, and to heck with what x-ray may show tomorrow as the black hole in the place I'm supposed to have lungs.

I definetely agree - we have mini-Saruman deep down inside. Or maybe not that deep, just one peel away. MiniSaruman, fruit of pride and arrogance not yet overwhelming to ripen Saurons, but enough to have [wo]man concentrating on his/herself and own wishes (not needs - what I want and what I need are often quite distinct things)

On a lighter side, it is not up my back and not exactly chills that take the route of sightseeing, but rather down the central channel of my spine chord (which, with reference to 'Dumbing Down' thread, luckily has no axe embedded into it yet (do office chairs count?)), and it's shivers rather...

[drigel]

HI
Sadly yes, I can attest that office chairs DO count
Though we may be taking this chapter's themes to a philosophical level unintended by the author, I second everyone's Saruman's point. We have had a Saruman with us since we harnessed fire, Im afraid.

But it does lead me to ponder.... The struggle you guys have eloquently expressed causes me to look at the ent/entwife struggle. Isnt their rift similar to the struggle described afore here? One side embracing the Sheparding of the land, the other embracing Nature, unmolested. The inevitability that those camps would part ways, never to join as one again... how sad....

[Child of the 7th Age]

The struggle you guys have eloquently expressed causes me to look at the ent/entwife struggle. Isnt their rift similar to the struggle described afore here? One side embracing the Sheparding of the land, the other embracing Nature, unmolested. The inevitability that those camps would part ways, never to join as one again? how sad....

Drigel

I am not sure if the contrast is that stark, although some may feel differently. At least I do not sense such a sharp dichotomy in my own mind and that of the author. Tolkien never seemed to have trouble accepting the fact that a landscape touched by man could have its own beauty. The prime example is the Shire. The problem lies not in the crafting of gardens but in a disregard for the needs of the earth.

I do think it's possible to live and have respect for the land yet still use it productively. The balance, of course, is subtle. Yet we are subcreators and part of that instinct could be reflected in someone like Sam who had a gift to protect and tend the earth.

Perhaps the problem with Ent and Entwife did not lay in the different pursuits they had chosen but rather in the lack of communication between them.

[drigel]

To be honest, I was careening off the path of this thread unintentionally. I agree that there is a balance - there has always been a need for balance for our survival, otherwise we would all be desert dwellers. My line of thinking (and its you guys fault - I am provoked mercilessly into thinking when I am here ) was this:

I think the rub lies in the use of the land, as expressed by the entwives. As opposed to the ents ummm existing in nature, being a part of it, and not above it, as it were.

Sorry for the stagger, now back on to this chapter.

[Aiwendil]

Child of the 7th Age wrote:

Perhaps the problem with Ent and Entwife did not lay in the different pursuits they had chosen but rather in the lack of communication between them.

I don't know - to me it really does seem that the problem between the Ents and Entwives arose primarily from their differing pursuits. Remember Letter 163:

And into this has crept a mere piece of experience, the difference of the 'male' and 'female' attitude to wild things, the difference between unpossessive love and gardening.

These are the characteristics that directly led to the Ents and Entwives living separately; their pursuits differed to such a degree that they could not pursue them both together in the same place.

Does this make the Entwives like Saruman? Yes, I would say. Obviously, not much like Saruman - but I think that again we can apply the Artificial vs. Natural distinction that pervades so much of Tolkien's work. The Ents are just about supremely Natural; Saruman of course embodies Artifice. The Entwives are somewhere in between - or, one could say, they are members of a fairly select group - Tolkien's Good Artificers. Aule is the prime example. He wants to create, to make things with skill, but he wants to do so for essentially good reasons. The Entwives have lesser ambitions, but again their goal in cultivating and gardening is not evil.

Having rambled a bit about that, I feel obligated to say something about the chapter at hand. I think that one of the few changes made by Peter Jackson that was actually for the better was the direct depiction of the attack on Isengard. Now I do not think that it was a mistake for Tolkien to tell the story as he did - through Merry and Pippin as a kind of flashback. Rather, I think that this is a prime example of a real difference between the literary and the cinematic. The fundamental principle at work here is that a movie is capable of making a direct visual appeal to the audience, and that is simply something that a book cannot do. In this one matter at least, motion pictures have an innate advantage over books. It would be a mistake for a LotR movie not to depict the Ents attacking Isengard, because that scene is one with the potential for such a powerful visual impact. In fact, to refer to such a momentous event without actually showing it would probably feel like a cheat to the audience.

But it would be a mistake to take this kind of thinking into the literary realm. For in a book, there is no opportunity for direct visual appeal to be missed. What a book substitutes for a movie's visual impact is the beauty of its prose. A written account of the ruin of Isengard achieves an impact on the reader not through the literal events that it depicts but through the words used to convey those events - as can be shown by the fact that it is quite possible for two writers to write about the same event and achieve very different results.

What this means is that there is nothing to be gained by telling of the attack on Isengard directly, rather than through Merry and Pippin - for either way, we are reading an account, not seeing the events. But what is there to be gained from this technique? One thing that has already been mentioned is suspense. We know that the Ents are going to attack Isengard but for several chapters we are left to wonder about the outcome.

But I think there is another reason that this way of telling the story is desirable: it allows the story to come out of Merry's and Pippin's mouths. For, after all, how would our narrator describe the attack? Can a straightforward description, even through the eyes of the Hobbits, really convey the fury of the assault? Perhaps I'm underestimating Tolkien's narrative ability, but I simply don't see how an account of the battle in the narrator's objective voice could do it justice. Merry and Pippin, on the other hand, can report the events with splendid subjectivity and with all the wonder and amazement a pair of Hobbits can conjure up.

[Formendacil]

Quite the discussion going, eh?

Something back earlier in the thread caught my eye, though, so I'm going to take a detour back to it:

Originally Posted by drigel

But to your question: Because captivitiy of a creature is such an affront to nature, I believe that for an ent, it would be a totally alien concept. Much like Bombadil, ents as wardens or even gatekeepers would really make lousy employees.

Not necessarily. In fact, I would say not at all. A warden or a gatekeeper is someone who watches over something, who protects it, and makes sure that no trouble comes it it. What's another job that fits that description?

A shepherd. Or maybe a.... tree-herder.

I'll admit that the comparisom isn't exact, but think about it. The Ents would have been well-qualified to take care of Saruman, better qualified than most Elves, Dwarves, or Men I fear. That Saruman eventually talked Treebeard into letting him go isn't so much a proof of Treebeard's weakness as of Saruman's strength. Treebeard, like everyone in middle-earth, is an imperfect creature. He has his Achilles Heel. It's only a matter of time for Saruman to come up with and use the right arguments against him.

[Lalwendë]

On the theme of whether Ents would make good guards:

"There is the water," said Merry. "But Quickbeam and some others are watching it. Not all those posts and pillars in the plain are of Saruman's planting. Quickbeam, I think, is by the rock, near the foot of the stair."

'Yes, a tall grey Ent is there," said Legolas, 'but his arms are at his sides, and he stands as still as a door-tree."

I like this passage and have often wondered what on earth (or Middle Earth) a 'door-tree' could be. It conjours up an image of the home of Legolas in Mirkwood, where the living trees themselves form part of the 'buildings', which is a beautiful idea. I like to think that this is how Lothlorien is 'constructed', by using the existing forms of the trees themselves instead of cutting them down to make structures. It also brings to mind the image of a wrecked Isengard occupied by very tall, very still Ents, finally placid after their rampage. Perhaps then, Ents do make good wardens or guards?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Aiwendil

I don't know - to me it really does seem that the problem between the Ents and Entwives arose primarily from their differing pursuits.

Without getting into this too deeply on a chapter thread, let me add something. You were right to say it's more than "communication" that separated them. But I also think it's not simply different attitude towards nature that led to estrangement. We have other examples and patterns that the Ents and Entwives could have emulated.

For example, it's not unusual for the male and female figures in a mythic/faerie linking to have completely contrasting spheres and interests....even to have set times when they separate from each other and later join again. (Persephone and Hades are a striking example of this, both in terms of differing roles and temperments and the issue of separation.) Even during the separation of such couples, there is an underlying rhythm that keeps them in step so they never lose each other.

In LotR, Tom Bombadil and his wife come to mind. Tom would roam off on his own in the forest but always found his way back to the house that Goldberry kept to enjoy the hearth and the warmth of their relationship. Just like Goldberry, the Entwives insisted on settling down and constructing gardens while the Ents kept rambling. In Treebeard's words,

...we only came to the gardens now and again. Then when the Darkness came in the North, the Entwives crossed the Great River, and made new gardens, and tilled new fields, and we saw them more seldom. After the Darkness was overthrown the land of the Entwives blossomed richly, and their fields were full of corn. Many men learned the crafts of the Entwives and honoured them greatly; but we were only a legend to them, a secret in the heart of the forest. Yet here we still are, while all the gardens of the Entwives are wasted: Men call them the Brown Lands now.

Differing views of nature and chosen roles in life do play a part in Ent/Entwife separation but even more critical is the fact that both of them have lost a sense of the joint rhythm of their lives. It would have been possible for them to have kept some type of cyclic relationship going where the two partners dance in and out, alternating times of separation and togetherness. After all, gardens do not blossom in the winter, and even a forest that is asleep presumably needs less care! But both genders were too wrapped up in themselves to care about the dance they were supposed to be weaving. In a strange kind of way, I am reminded of the modern couples who put so much of themselves into work that there is nothing left for each other.

It does make one wonder. Given the fact that the Ents had not made a sustained effort to nurture a relation over time and were so easily wooed away from their wives, would they actually have been the best guards of Saruman? Was it simply the Voice of the Wizard that deceived them, or did they have a natural tendency to shut out anything that distracted them from their preferred life path? Taking care of a prisoner would interfere with their desire to wander through the woods so that they might be more likely to shirk their obligations. And unlike the rapid attack on Isengard, being responsible for a prisoner takes sustained commitment over time, something they had trouble with. (These same deficiencies in behavior were just as true of the Entwives, but they are out of the picture now.)

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

To quote an even small portion of Treebeard's quote:

Many men learned the crafts of the Entwives and honoured them greatly; but we were only a legend to them, a secret in the heart of the forest.

The first thing this makes me wonder is if the entwives were physically different from the ents, and to a degree that they would not even be recognized as the same species.

My reason for wondering is that men honored the entwives greatly, but ents were only a legend. If they look fairly similar, I would have a very easy time believing that the masculine version of what's standing right in front of me could be found in the forests to the south, unless the entwives themselves had come to believe that the ents had passed away.

[Lathriel]

Through Ents Tolkien found nature's voice. They are the true protectors of everything that grows. Because this book is fantasy it is able to show things from a natures perspective in a way that could not be managed in fiction (as in non-fiction and historical).
I think one of the main purposes of the ents was to show that not only does evil damage people and their families but that it also damages nature which causes further consequences down the road.
For me the ents make nature more personal. Already I am very conscious of the environment, and always have been. However tha character Treebeard just adds to my belief that preserving nature is extremely important.
Treebeard says himself that the damage caused by Saruman will take many years to heal. Now just think of all the damage we have caused and how long that will take!! Of course the battle between Saruman and the ents also shows that nature will prevail. I'm certain that Tolkien believed in that. However, seeing our world as it is now it will have to take a lot for nature to reconquer (Not counting big storms).
Someone mentioned earlier that the entwives could be compared to Saruman. I would have to dissagree. It is true that the Entwives manipulated growing things. However they still grew things and cultivated many plants and trees to grow. Saruman didn't encourage anything to grow at all. In fact he destroyed every living plant. He caused much destruction, whereas the entwives created many living things.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Lathriel -

I agree with you. Whatever their failings, the Entwives were not Saruman. As I've argued before, the estrangement between the Ents and Entwives was something that could be laid on both the genders, and was not solely the fault of the Entwives. Tolkien's whole tone in describing the rift is one of sorrow rather than condemnation. Moreover, Tolkien's loving depiction of the Shire shows that he was not insisting all land be kept in a "virgin" state but accepted the fact that there would be places like the Shire where loving hands would tend the earth.

I did notice one other thing in the chapter which brought a smile to my face. In one part of Pippin's narrative, he uses the term "misty, moisty morning" to describe Isengard. I knew I'd heard those words somewhere before and then I remembered the nursery rhyme:

One Misty Moisty Morning

One misty moisty morning,
When cloudy was the weather,
I chanced to meet an old man,
Clothed all in leather.
He began to compliment
And I began to grin.
How do you do? And how do you do?
And how do you do again?

Or here's a slightly different version:

One misty, moisty, morning,

When cloudy was the weather,

There I met an old man

All clothed in leather,

All clothed in leather,

With a cap under his chin.

How do you do?

And how do you do?

And how do you do again?

So in our search for great and mighty sources, let's not forget the humble nursery rhyme. It's not the first time that JRRT made the link between hobbits and nursery rhymes. (Remember Frodo at the Prancing Pony.)

[mark12_30]

Strider in a moment of vulnerability:

‘Now let us take our ease here for a little!’ said Aragorn. ‘We will sit on the edge of ruin and talk, as Gandalf says, while he is busy elsewhere. I feel a weariness such as I have seldom felt before.’ He wrapped his grey cloak about him, hiding his mail-shirt, and stretched out his long legs. Then he lay back and sent from his lips a thin stream of smoke.
‘Look!’ said Pippin. ‘Strider the Ranger has come back!’
‘He has never been away,’ said Aragorn. ‘I am Strider and Dúnadan too, and I belong both to Gondor and the North.’

Legolas in an endearing moment of impatience:

Legolas lay still, looking up at the sun and sky with steady eyes, and singing softly to himself. At last he sat up. ‘Come now!’ he said. ‘Time wears on, and the mists are blowing away, or would if you strange folk did not wreathe yourselves in smoke. What of the tale?’

Pippin counts on his fingers, which I find charming:

Pippin made some calculations on his fingers. ‘Only nine days ago!’ he said.

...which means that Gimli's Two Hundred leagues were covered in that time. Wow.

Strider returns the hobbits' knives:

‘Here are some treasures that you let fall,’ said Aragorn. ‘You will be glad to have them back.’ He loosened his belt from under his cloak and took from it the two sheathed knives.

I went back to the chapter "The Departure of Boromir" and found this quote:

‘See!’ cried Aragorn. ‘Here we find tokens!’ He picked out from the pile of grim weapons two knives, leaf-bladed, damasked in gold and red; and searching further he found also the sheaths, black, set with small red gems. ‘No orc-tools these!’ he said. ‘They were borne by the hobbits. Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor. Well, now, if they still live, our friends are weaponless. I will take these things, hoping against hope, to give them back.’

"Wound about with spells"-- in which case I would expect Anduril to also be wound about with spells, and Strider would have been well aware of it. No wonder he was so defensive of Anduril at the door of Edoras.

Once upon a time, Saruman's hands were "marvellously skilled." I find this a very interesting value of Tolkien's, and it reminds me of Gandalf's praise of Feanor, later in the palantir chapter.

Once again, Gandalf is "merry"-- almost.

Then Gandalf came back to us, and he seemed relieved, almost merry. He did say he was glad to see us, then.
‘”But Gandalf,” I cried, “where have you been? And have you seen the others?”
‘”Wherever I have been, I am back,” he answered in the genuine Gandalf manner.

Another good chuckle from Treebeard regarding Wormtongue:

‘”The water is not deep,” said Treebeard. “It is dirty, but that will not harm you, Master Wormtongue. In you go now!”