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01-16-2005, 04:59 PM | #1 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
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LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 06 - The King of the Golden Hall
Having met the Riders of Rohan several chapters back, we are now introduced to their king in this chapter. We learn about various aspects of the Rohirric culture – poetry, language, and love of horses. The remaining four members of the Fellowship who ride to Edoras find little welcome there; the Rohirrim are suspicious of strangers. Is Gríma’s influence solely responsible for that attitude, or do we find evidence that it was previously typical for them?
There are so many details that we can discuss in this chapter; I’ll only drop a few stones into the water to see if they start some ripples. Éorl the Young is mentioned twice directly, first in the poem Aragorn recites, then his image on the tapestry in the Golden Hall. The ‘House of Éorl’ is mentioned, which I assume is the basis for the word ‘Eorlingas’. Háma is introduced and shown to be an upright man who is able to use his own judgement even against orders, both in letting Gandalf keep his staff and in giving Éomer’s sword back to him. ‘Dwimordene’ is what the Rohirrim call Lothlórien; it means “haunted valley”, which describes how they think of it. Green gems are mentioned in connection with the guards, most likely on the hilts of their swords. We’ve seen Tolkien use green gems previously, for Aragorn and as a sign by Glorfindel. What would they signify in this context? How does Gandalf use his staff in the Golden Hall? Does it remind you of his display of power to Bilbo in Bag End in the first book? There are a number of wonderful quotes with proverbial quality. Here are some of my favorites: Quote:
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01-16-2005, 06:02 PM | #2 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Hama is actually a key figure in this chapter, as mentioned. He has several
notable quotes, and his speech and actions show Rohan to be a "free" land, with the people there using autonomous judgment, even in interpreting orders: Quote:
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01-17-2005, 12:35 AM | #3 | ||||||||
Hauntress of the Havens
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*inhales*
First and foremost, from the previous CbC thread:
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Now, into the chapter. The concept of hope in the form of light in this chapter is so overwhelming. At first, Rohan can be seen as a dark place, having no hope because of Theodred's death and Isengard's treachery. This darkness began to weigh on Theoden, as we find out later on... Quote:
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After this, Theoden has been released from the spell; the house of Eorl was renewed. And a new hope awakened in Meduseld because of this...a hope that has its source in Gandalf. Quote:
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(Now I know a little how CRT feels doing UT and HoME. ~Nilp) Last edited by Lhunardawen; 01-17-2005 at 01:16 AM. Reason: This is Nilpaurion. She forgot some stuff. Of course, she is always forgetful . . . |
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01-17-2005, 05:16 PM | #4 |
Sage & Onions
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Streams and Honesty
Just a couple of quick points after re-reading the chapter yesterday,
One thing that I didn't remember was that Edoras had little channels through which streams of clear running water flowed. I don't precisely know why, but I find the idea really attractive. The only places I've been that are similar are Bourton-on-the-Water in the Cotswolds and Freiburg in Southern Germany. More little streams please all you town planners out there! The second one was about the honesty and 'simplicity' (by which I mean straightforwardness and honour rather than stupidity) shown by both the Gate-guard at Edoras and Hama, in contrast to Wormtongue. In the land of the honest is the crooked man always going to become Prime-Minister? One slight possible inconsistency - did Gandalf tell Theoden about Frodo and the ring? At one stage they speak privately and look out to the east, whereupon Theoden regains some hope, but later, Gandalf says that he can't reveal any of this to Theoden. Have I got the wrong end of the stick here?
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01-18-2005, 07:21 PM | #5 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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I love this one part in the story, the exchange between Hama and Aragorn. Only, because we can see that Aragorn isn't a perfect character. In the previous chapter, he steps down and declares Gandalf as the "guide." In this chapter he tries to assert himself over Theoden (with power that Aragorn doesn't even have yet). Luckily, Gandalf is there to give Aragorn a slap on the wrist. I also love this part due to Hama. Here Hama follows orders, later we see that Hama can think on his own, disobeying orders. As I'll later point out, it's interesting who Hama takes orders from, and who he doesn't.
Hama tells Aragorn to hand over precious Anduril... Quote:
I wonder what Gandalf told Theoden. Since, Tolkien doesn't say (atleast to what I'm aware of), but we can guess what he said... Quote:
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01-18-2005, 08:26 PM | #6 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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While it's quite possible Gandalf was telling Theoden about the Ringbearer's quest, it's also possible he was filling him in about Aragorn and Aragorn's return with Anduril. I don't think Hama had told Theoden of Aragorn's comment (cited above) and Aragorn hadn't yet revealed himself as Isildir's Heir to Sauron so it's at least possible that that was the surprise Gandalf was alluding to.
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01-19-2005, 05:18 PM | #7 | ||
Gibbering Gibbet
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Ok, wow, a lot to say about this chapter. Strap in, grab a snack…or just skip it entirely and go do something more productive with your time!
Boromir88 raises the interesting scene in which Aragorn not only refuses to remove Anduril but even puts himself forward over Theoden. B88 read this in a relatively negative light, but I see it as altogether justified. Yes, in his own hall Theoden gets his way, but Aragorn is the heir of Elendil. It’s a remarkable demonstration of his acceptance of his role and identity that he is willing to accept and even promote that claim so forcefully, but I do not think that we need see this as arrogance. B88 goes so far as to compare Aragorn with Sauron but in a bad way: I would maintain this comparison but in a different manner. Just as Gandalf has returned as the “new” Saruman, or Saruman as he was supposed to be, so too is Aragorn, in a loose sense, Sauron as he was supposed to be. What I mean by this is: Sauron wants to rule the West of Middle-earth and Aragorn is the true ruler of the West. Sauron wants Theoden and everyone else to acknowledge his rule when there is no justification for this claim for Aragorn is the rightful ruler. Just as Gandalf has taken on the new identity of ‘the White’ so too is Aragorn claiming as his own the identity as King of the West. But on to that other far more interesting topic: Éowyn. I am sure that I am not alone in having been waiting for this!! What other character generates more interest and opinion than the Lady of Rohan, except perhaps Gollum…or Boromir…? From the outset Meduseld is presented as a place in which women are not only important, but almost the primary referent. More specifically, the action of the chapter is grouped and organised around Éowyn. When Aragorn et al enter the Hall one of the first things they notice are the tapestries that depict the history and ‘lore’ of Rohan. Well, who wove these tapestries? It had to have been the women of the Hall, which places them in the interesting position as lore masters, and as the repositories of memory and history. The centrality of women in Meduseld is then made even more concretely visible in our first glimpse of Theoden. Standing behind the throne is Éowyn while Gríma is crouched before it. The situation of the King is manifestly one in which he is ‘trapped’ between these two people: Gríma the lying man and tool of Saruman, and Éowyn the faithful Lady of Rohan. It’s almost a mythic moment in which we see the King as poised between femininity (tradition? Memory? Duty?) and masculinity. Gríma immediately establishes himself as a man who is against feminine power. One of the first things he ‘accuses’ Gandalf of is of being: Quote:
But what I find most striking in this chapter is that the return of Theoden to power and kingship is marked by the ‘revelation’ of Éowyn: Quote:
So there’s a particular pattern here: Éowyn is presented as a knight to her king Theoden, Aragorn sees her not as a knight but as a lady, and then she looks at Aragorn as a knight looking at a King. Seems to me that the only people responding to Éowyn as a lady – that is, as a feminine, pretty thing that is “fair and cold” – are the men! And despite this (mis)perception she is still very much a knight in her own right. This is recognised at the end of the chapter when she receives a sword and corslet from Theoden who leaves her to rule in his stead, and the last view we have of her is standing guard over Meduseld as the men depart for war.
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01-19-2005, 05:57 PM | #8 | |
Laconic Loreman
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Wonderful post Fordhim, and I only got a tid-bit to add...
The only reason, I think, that portrays the quote I provided as a negative side to Aragorn, is he doesn't even have that power yet. He's not king yet, and he's still trying to override Theoden's orders. It shows his willingness to become King, but he doesn't have that power, yet he tries to cast away Theoden's orders. Theoden's orders are foolish, but Aragorn atleast here, is trying to use power that he doesn't have. (Eventually he does get this power, and is entitled to that power, but right now he doesn't have it). Hama even points out, it doesn't matter even if you were in Denethor's place, this is Theoden's hall, and his orders will be obeyed. Which brings up two interesting questions. Gandalf says "A king will have his own way, in his own hall?" I wonder if this has any connections with the Gandalf and Denethor encounters in the chapters to come? Also, if Aragorn was King at this time, I wonder what would have happened? If he was King and his will would be able to cancel Theoden's, what would have Hama done? What would have happened? The nobility of Aragorn is shown, in which he differs from Sauron, is when he doesn't take power that he's entitled to. He lets Faramir remain as Steward, and he lets Eomer remain King of Rohan. Then lastly to Eowyn. I find it slightly funny, or maybe it's just that Theoden still hasn't totally recovered, but he doesn't even think of Eowyn... Quote:
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01-20-2005, 08:39 AM | #9 | |
Gibbering Gibbet
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What this scene with Hama dramatises is that what's changed for Aragorn is his attitude to his kingship: he is finally willing to assert his right, and to demand that people recognise him as king. He has the full power and authority that he is claiming here -- he is Elendil's heir, the rightful and returned King, and of that there can be no question. In his confrontation with Eomer, remember, he commanded that Eomer choose between right and wrong by choosing whether to "help [Aragorn] or hinder" him. Again, this point is made clear by Eowyn who, apparently alone among the Rohirrim, is able instantly to recognise Aragorn for the King that he is. Eomer and Theoden both require a certain amount of convincing, but Eowyn is able to see the real and rightful power and authority that Aragorn bears. Good on her!
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01-20-2005, 09:27 AM | #10 | |
A Mere Boggart
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As Gandalf says, it is "idle talk", but he can see that it will be better to acquiesce with grace and dignity than to challenge those who were and will be allies of Gondor. Gandalf is the diplomat ever at the side of Aragorn, his personal adviser (a Sir Humphrey to Aragorn's Jim Hacker?); he dissuades Aragorn from taking the firm hand where it is not needed. I say it takes a better King to acknowledge his less powerful neighbours' right to independence; this is not only more dignified but in the long term, more strategic view (I really do sound like the bureaucrat I am now...) it makes sound political sense, as alliances are stronger where there is a real consensus between parties. I don't think that these words of Aragorn indicate anything sinister about him or his intentions, in fact, I also think they show his strength, but they also demonstrate some vestige of his inexperience, and possibly, his sense of frustration at the lack of real progress.
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01-20-2005, 10:52 AM | #11 | |
Late Istar
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I tend to agree with Boromir88 regarding Aragorn. To me, he has always come across as just slightly arrogant here. He is, after all, in Theoden's land and indeed about to enter Theoden's hall; whether or not he is the king of another land, he ought to do as he is bidden. Though it's a bit beside the point, I must quibble slightly with Fordim's:
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It bears noting, of course, that this scene in LotR mirrors quite closely a scene in "Beowulf" - Beowulf and his companions are confronted by a door-warden upon reaching Heorot, the hall of king Hrothgar, and are told to leave their weapons behind. The two obvious things to say about this are, first, that it may have no special significance but merely reflect Tolkien's liking of "Beowulf" and, second, that since the Rohirrim have so many obviously Anglo-saxon traits, Meduseld may have been associated in Tolkien's mind with Heorot (although Heorot is in Denmark, the poem is Anglo-saxon). An interesting point to me, however, is the parallel here between Aragorn and Beowulf. Like Aragorn, Beowulf makes a point of declaring his lineage to the door-warden. Is there some connection between Aragorn and Beowulf or is it a mere accident? We would perhaps expect Beowulf, the archetypal Anglo-saxon hero, to be associated with one of the Rohirrim. But perhaps this suggests that the northern heroic ideal should be seen as playing as large or almost as large a role in Tolkien's portrayal of the Numenoreans as in that of the Rohirrim, if a less overt one. |
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01-20-2005, 11:10 AM | #12 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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I think Lalwendë has hit it on the spot - yes, Aragorn is king, but not of this country! The Rohirrim are not his subjects, and Théoden is his ally, not his vassal. Even having a larger and more important kingdom does not give Aragorn the right to go over the king's head in that king's own country. I don't see Aragorn as arrogant here, but it is certainly good that he has a wise counselor and accepts what he says. Diplomacy is an important part of political wisdom.
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01-20-2005, 04:17 PM | #13 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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A few thoughts...
Its interesting that Gandalf is so easily recognised by the folk of Edoras, who know him less well than his three companions. How come Theoden & Grima know him on sight when Aragorn, Legolas & Gimli didn't? Are we seeing Gandalf becoming more 'earthed', more his old self, as time passes? Certainly when Pippin sees him for the first time after his reappearance he recognises him straight away. Wormtongue's role is also interesting. We seem to have strayed into the world of Beowulf as Aiwendil has pointed out. Wormtongue seems to echo Unferth, in his role of challenger of strangers, mocker, Judge, jury & executioner. I'm also reminded of the role Sir Kay plays in the later Arthurian stories. But obciously there's a darker aspect to Grima's character. I think his 'nickname' tells us what that is. Wormtongue. He is a liar, a twister of the truth. His language is the language of 'Wyrms', of Smaug to some extent, but perhaps closest to Glaurung. He speaks poison. But he has an even darker aspect: Quote:
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''See, Theoden, here is a snake!" Grima has become like Satan in the 'garden' of Rohan, & Gandalf appears in the role of Eru to cast him onto his belly & drive him forth. I don't know how far this analogy can be taken - if Grima is 'Satan' then is Theoden 'Adam'? Is Eowyn 'Eve'? Best not push it too far, but I think its clear that Tolkien sees Grima as a corrupter of humanity, who must be driven out before the people of Rohan have a chance. Grima seems to be the focus of Gandalf's attention. Its as if he realises that this is no mere 'serving man'. Grima is a figure of great power in the court, & Gandalf must show him for what he is before Theoden can be freed of his hold on him. Of course, Grima is an odd cove. We know little about him. We're told he was once a man of Rohan, but he doesn't seem like that at all. He seems like some kind of 'monster' in human form. He is like Theoden's 'depression' & hopelessness given physical form. Its as if he is the King's dark cloud, his 'Black Dog' come to life. He is a shadow made flesh. Anyone who has ever suffered from depression will know exactly what this Theoden/Wormtongue relationship is like. But another thing occurs to me. Grima is like Smeagol in that both are mostly known & referred to by their nicknames. Is there an 'echo' of the Theoden-Grima relationship in Frodo-Smeagol? Grima is an man in his own right, of course, but he is also Theoden's 'shadow' made flesh. In the same way Smeagol is at once an autonomous being & at the same time he is Frodo's 'shadow'. From this perspective Gandalf can only liberate Theoden by casting out his 'demon', Wormtongue, & Frodo can only be liberated when 'demon', Gollum, has been cast into the fire. |
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01-21-2005, 06:04 AM | #14 | |||
Hauntress of the Havens
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Aragorn's behavior towards Hama and the will of Theoden is surely unlikeable. But we fail to notice the thing involved - rather, the thing that started the whole argument in the first place. It was no mere sword; it was Anduril. And a sword is always a symbol of power and authority. Did Aragorn think that surrendering Anduril meant giving up on his claim as the King and making himself subordinate to Theoden? That could have been his primary thought and the reason for his disobedience.
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Finally, you're becoming more and more respectable in my sight, Fordim. First we agree on swooning over Aragorn, and now this! Quote:
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Last edited by Lhunardawen; 01-21-2005 at 09:06 PM. |
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01-21-2005, 06:28 PM | #15 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Originally posted by Lhunardawen
"Grima is crouched before Theoden. He seems to be just a servant of Theoden, yet we see that this is merely an illusion. Eowyn, on the other hand, stood behind the king. This says two things: one, that Eowyn will stand behind the king and support him despite the circumstances and his faulty decisions; and two, she has a greater authority in Rohan than Grima thinks he does. " ========================== Which reinforces a point cited above, which many readers may gloss over, that when the people of Rohan see that both Theoden and Eomer are leaving for Gondor they want Eowyn, not some elderly male aristo, to lead the people.
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01-22-2005, 06:45 AM | #16 | |
Brightness of a Blade
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I too agree with Lalwendë and Boromir88 about Aragorn. And also - especially when I first read LOTR - this was one of the parts that made Aragorn unlikeable to me, as I do perceive his attitude as arrogant (though thankfully not accompanied by stubborness, as he ultimately accepts Gandalf's diplomatic advice). And all the more since his arrogance is needless. What did he hope to gain in his keeping Anduril? Did he have so little faith in the doorwardens who were to guard the weapons? If I were Hama, I would have felt insulted. Since Aragorn is coming to Rohan not to demand, but to serve (he will aid the Rohirrim in battle) he must show acceptance of the customs and obedience. It is not he who rides side by side with the King of the Mark when they set off to Helm's Deep, it is Gandalf that rides at the head of the company with Theoden - while Aragorn, Eomer, Legolas and Gimli follow suit. His position at the moment is indeed very similar to that of Eomer, especially since Theoden had named the latter as his heir. They are both future kings but none of them holds that position yet and there's a difference. If Aragorn were already king, his attitude would feel more justified, but Theoden would still have the right to decide matters in his own 'house'.
Also there's this line that puzzled me: Quote:
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01-22-2005, 03:50 PM | #17 |
Laconic Loreman
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Very good points Evisse, and I got a bit more to add.
Aragorn in this chapter seems to try to assert himself. Gandalf stops him, and if Aragorn didn't learn a lesson from this, then wouldn't he have tried to assert himself as king when he first comes to Minas Tirith? Aragorn could have learned something from this situation. He doesn't come to Minas Tirith to take Denethor's place (despite Imrahil's encouragement). He waits for the proper time to claim the throne, which is after Minas Tirith is saved, as well as Middle-earth. He seems it unwise to just have a leadership change when battle is going on. Rohan is in the same situation. They are fighting Saruman as we speak. Now the situation is a bit different, Aragorn doesn't go there to take the throne from Theoden, but he tries to disregard his orders. If he would have there could be some troubling moments ahead as Hama says something like "Do you intend to go against everyone in Rohan?" That's when Gimli says "Not everyone," and strokes his axe...the scene continues. Anyway point is you have to recognize a change in Aragorn between this scene in Rohan, and the later in Gondor. In Rohan he tries to assert himself, and Gandalf tells him to "back off," and he does. In Gondor he is actually being encouraged to take the throne, but he doesn't. So, you have to think that Aragorn learned something from Gandalf's line "A king will have his own way in his own hall." |
01-23-2005, 01:06 PM | #18 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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Fascinating thoughts, all, on the actions of Aragorn and of Eowyn also. If I may, I would like to forgo talking about them and return to Estelyn's initial question.
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This chapter takes us from the dark concerns of the forest, one of the primeval places of faerie, and leads us out onto the wide, broad plains of Rohan and up to a geography I know as foothills. For me, Tolkien has presented a geography very close to my own experience: from the pre-Cambrian forests of north-central Canada, across the grasslands of the prairies, right up to the foothills. I even know of towns built on the edge of the mountains as Edoras is, courageous outposts of culture and civilization skirting the edge of near-empty or unmapped terrain. Now, I'm not saying Tolkien deliberately itended to describe Canada here, but that his depiction of the geography is important to our understanding of the Rohirrim people, perched precariously against the elements of land, weather, and beset on both sides by dark forces, of Saruman on the west and Mordor on the east. Quote:
It is the style, though, that I find particularly interesting, for here begins I think some of the strongest evidences of Tolkien's efforts to reimagine some of the features of archaic English in modern English form. The two paragraphs I have quoted have many sentences which begin not with their sugjects, but with subordinate clauses or prepositional phrases, or inversions. Tolkien uses style to begin to characterise this ancient culture. It is a stirring style, replete with an almost ritualistic formality which seems very suitable. Perhaps the most prominent of the specifically Old English style is the poem "Where now the horse and the rider?", with its high rate of alliteration and prominent, staccado-like rhythm. The short, pithy lines of this chapter, so many of which Estelyn has quoted in the first post here, also harken back to the kennings of Old English literature. The other characteristic I find intriguing also has to do with the description of entry to Edoras. In the simbelmynë which flowers over the barrows of the kings we learn something of the theme of Lord of the Rings, the doom of man, and of what time's passing and the importance of song means to a people. "a memory of song" says Aragorn. .
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01-23-2005, 03:23 PM | #19 | |
A Mere Boggart
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I've found a link to an English heritage site here (with pic of Uffington Hill Fort) and another link to a site selling paintings of race horses, one of which is very reminiscent of Rohan, here. The whole area is just south west of Oxford, and I don't doubt Tolkien would have been there, and if he did base places in his work upon 'real' places then this is one of the most striking comparisons. Interestingly, in the films, while Rohan was nothing like the Rohan of my imagination or the Rohan that can be found in the Lambourn area, the flags of the Rohirrim bore a striking resemblance to White Horses carved onto English hillsides.
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Last edited by Lalwendë; 01-24-2005 at 06:13 AM. Reason: 'broken' links |
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01-24-2005, 05:07 AM | #20 | |
Cryptic Aura
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A horse with no name
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Sounds very cool, Lalwendë, but neither of your links work for me. This sounds like a topic for the Canonicity thread! I had never associated Rohan with England's actual horsey set for two reasons. First, what I know (and that's precious little) of horse racing culture in England suggests to me that it is almost as much a form of drama or spectacle as a sport. I guess I related this to how Peter Ackroyd describes an English love of performance and drama, in all aspects of life. (At least for London). I'm thinking of the fancy dress for Ascot, and the ties with the aristocracy. When I was in York last summer, we left on the start of their annual horse race week, which was a "practice run" for Ascot next year. I tell you, the hats I saw! And guys in full formal wear who the day before had been wearing tees and jeans. Sort of like fox hunting too, which to me has nothing to do with sport and much to do with very fancy forms of play, at least for the human participants. And none of these associations have ever fit my sense of Rohan, where the horses are bred for cavalry fighting rather than racing. The other point which shapes my sense of English horse play is the historical development of racing, as opposed to breeding horses for cavalry, farming, medieval jousts, etc. According to a colleague of mine, horse racing as we know it today didn't develope until the nineteenth century, when trains made it possible to transport horses much farther afield. Before the advent of the steel stallions, horses were ridden to the races, and then raced. A bit of a limitation on results and also on distance! Why horse-drawn horse wagons weren't around she couldn't say! There's a letter by Tolkien (the number of which escapes me now in the bleary hours of early morn) which states that Minas Tirith is set at the latitude of Venice. this has given me the impression that "Rohan" would be "over" towards the steepes of south eastern Europe. Barrows and tombs of wealthy leaders abound in slavic culture. Still, I'd love to see those downs of yours. Makes all our 'racing downs' here make much more sense! If I had a shilling for every pub sign souvenir I saw with a white horse on it, I would have been able to buy my pints for free, I think!
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01-24-2005, 06:43 AM | #21 | |
A Mere Boggart
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I've tried to get the links to work, though the English Heritage one might remain slightly iffy - still, search for Lambourn Downs and something should come up on there (and there are many more interesting pages to look at anyway!).
Tolkien was accustomed to horse-riding himself, and I don't doubt he would have been struck by the spectacle of watching horses being trained, especially in a place like Lambourn with its rolling downs, springs and mists. Strangely enough, horse-racing is an interest which does cut across the classes in both Britain and Ireland (especially so in Ireland), with most race meetings attended by all kinds of people. One of my favourite novels is Esther Waters by George Moore, which features a fair amount about horse racing, breeding and the associated gambling in the 19th century; the novel isn't all about this however, and I have to recommend it as a wonderful naturalistic portrait of poverty in Victorian England. An interesting aspect of Rohan is that their horses are all bred for speed and strength and are described in the terms usually reserved for thoroughbreds. Yet it is based on an Anglo-Saxon culture, and such horses would have been unthinkable, as thoroughbreds are said to be descended from creatures raised in the Middle East. The type of horse that would have been common in England in the Anglo-Saxon period would have had more in common with the modern 'shire horse'. Perhaps this explains something about the Mearas, in that they are uncommon and originate from 'elsewhere' much as an exotic creature such as a thoroughbred might. Quote:
The person I am often reminded of when reading about Grima is Rapsutin who held a similar level of influence. He operated by exploiting the fear of illness, much as Grima operates by exploiting fear in Theoden and 'grinding him down'. With Grima we see not the skill of osanwe or magic or anything else which Saruman might have used, but simply human cunning in exploiting the king's fears and doubts.
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02-02-2005, 06:34 PM | #22 | |||
Corpus Cacophonous
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Better late than never?
Catching up ...
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I am with those who believe that Aragorn behaves wrongly here. It is arrogant of him to deem himself above the law of the King in whose land he finds himself - to believe that his will should prevail over that of Theoden in Theoden’s own court. He may be the heir to the throne of Gondor but, as has been pointed out, he has not yet been crowned and Rohan is in any event an ally of, and not subservient to, Gondor. He has no right to refuse to obey the King's law. But this, surely, marks another stage in Aragorn's development as a man worthy to be King of Gondor. We saw in the Chapters marking the end of Book I and the beginning of this Book a man who had very little confidence in himself. He remarked on two occasions upon how all of his choices during the day in which the Fellowship split seemed to have gone ill and he was in a state of deep despair following Boromir's death: Quote:
And it is, of course, Gandalf who guides him in this journey with his calming words at the door (even though he is steeling himself at that moment for a confrontation which he knows will come when they enter the Golden Hall). But going back to Gandalf’s words as they approach Edoras, these raise some interesting points. Why did Gandalf feel the need to speak them? OK, he knows that Gimli is a bit headstrong, so perhaps that is a sufficient explanation. But is he also using a measure of foresight here? Does he foresee how Aragorn will react to turning Anduril in at the door? Or has he picked up that Aragorn still has a little way to go before he is truly worthy to take the throne of Gondor and therefore needs a little bit of guidance. It is difficult to see how, given the humility that Aragorn showed him in the previous Chapter. But Gandalf is a wily old soul. Which is also apparent in the “let out” he gives himself in his words. His advice is to draw no weapon and speak no haughty words until they are “come before Theoden’s seat”. But once they are before Theoden’s seat, it is Gandalf who draws his staff and speaks boldly (to say the least). Another, more “technical” function of the exchange before the door of Edoras is to highlight the importance and lineage of Anduril. It is important, I think, that we are reminded of this before it is drawn in anger in the next Chapter (it having received little mention since Bree and Rivendell). Indeed, the importance of weapons and their lineage is one of the themes that stands out in this Chapter. They have names and are portrayed almost as characters. We have Anduril of course, but even Gimli’s axe is given a measure of character in his reference to it not being ashamed to stay at the door if it is in Anduril’s company. Later in the Chapter, we see Eomer’s sword have a revitalising effect on Theoden when he grasps it. And Theoden’s sword too has a name, Herugrim, and is described as an “ancient blade“. The fact that Wormtongue had hidden it is in a way symbolic of his prior influence over the King. So these are not just weapons, they are almost characters in themselves, with their own histories and their own significance. Which brings me to Gandalf’s staff. The fact that he (far more subtly than Aragorn) insists on retaining it lends some credence to the theory that the Staves of the Istari were more than symbolic. I wonder whether he would have been able to achieve what he does once within the Hall without it? The suggestion is that it at least enhances his power to dispel Wormtongue’s webs of deceit. A final thought. Does Gandalf use a smidgeon of mind-control at the Gates of Edoras? Quote:
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02-02-2005, 07:47 PM | #23 | |
Gibbering Gibbet
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"These are not the 'droids you are looking for." "Booo-aagh; jonky jedi mind tricks."
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02-25-2005, 07:22 PM | #24 | |||||||||||||||||
Stormdancer of Doom
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ketchup, ketchup
Notes taken while reading the chapter (pre-thread-reading) :
Always wondered why Aragorn was so fussy about leaving Anduril at Theoden's door; thought it was a kind of snooty paranoia. However I think now that he was worried somebody would un-intentionally be caught by the weapon's protective whatever-it-was (curse? spell? blessing? scabbard?) Quote:
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Edoras has a cool floor: Quote:
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Child first brought to my attention a theme that runs throughout the entire trilogy. Gandalf with elegance and simplicity states it here: Quote:
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Once again we see Aragorn's basic and simple virtues at work: Quote:
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I remember Gimli's cap and shield, but I don't remember the beginning of that paragraph; always missed it before, or skimmed it. Quote:
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The men gallop off, and our last sight is this: Quote:
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. Last edited by mark12_30; 02-25-2005 at 07:30 PM. |
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02-25-2005, 08:36 PM | #25 | ||||||||
Stormdancer of Doom
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uh, I made it 3/4 thru the thread...
Lhunardawen -- wonderful points about the light-and-hope mystical unity!
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It's interesting to read in the thread how many folk were disapppointed in Aragorn's behavior at Theoden's doorway. How dangerous was Anduril? Was Aragorn's statement 'death hshall come to any man' for real, or was Anduril just a normal sword? What about in the sword? Aragorn says by way of warning that Quote:
At Rivendell, Narsil was re-forged by elven-smiths, who added symbols & runes of power: Quote:
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Aragorn isn't the type to lightly curse someone, especially a stranger, so I doubt he was making the curse up himself on the spot. Nor would Aragorn lie. As I've said before, he doesn't know how to lie; he'd choke if he tried. So there's a spell of some sort on the sword; and he's really worried about some clueless, curious rider handling his sword and dropping dead. He mutters the sword's lineage and power to Hama, gets Hama's wide-eyed promise that nobody will touch it, and he's satisfied. I stand by my notes. I think he was acting in an attempt to protect the unknowing, hesitant to declare himself quite yet, worried that someone might pick up and inspect an interesting and ancient sword, maybe even draw it out of curiousity, and invoke some curse on their own heads without intending it. Other comments... Fordie: Dude!! Nice connection between tapestries and webs!! Quote:
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davem, biblically the snake is matched to Satan in the garden of eden; but in the new testament, the terms "snakes and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy" are a broad, generalized reference to the demonic. I think Gandalf is simply pointing out that Grima's alliance is to the darkness, not to the light; Grima isn't Melkor, nor is he Sauron. But through Saruman, Grima is a servant of Melkor and Sauron, whether he realises it or not. Interesting point about shadows & deliverance... Quote:
Lalwende-- interesting picture of foggy rolling fields... nice. To me that says "Barrow-Downs" or "North Downs." I picture Rohan as (cough) the great plains of America... don't shoot me.
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03-03-2005, 02:08 AM | #26 |
Scion of The Faithful
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Re: Grima the serpent
There was one who took the alternate role for the serpent, aside from the famous Lucifer. His name was Samael.
It is said that on the sixth day, God was so pleased with Adam he wanted the angels to bow down to him. Samael refused, and Michael warned him of the consequence of his disobedience. But Samael gathered many angels of like mind to him and said something to the effect of “Let God try!” and Michael promptly tossed him out of heaven. Now, at the risk of being accused of crossing the allegory line, I’d say we see hints of Saruman here. He didn't think Men were good enough to rule Middle-earth—which was Ilúvatar's plan. In this case, however, his downfall was brought about by the very beings he thought weren’t good enough.
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フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
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03-09-2005, 02:37 AM | #27 |
Scion of The Faithful
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More ramblings.
When we first came across Théoden he looked a man so old and feeble you’d wonder if he could even leave Meduseld. After a little chat with Gandalf we see him riding off to battle. What happened? And how came he to be dotard in the first place?
Gríma Wormtongue. This cunning servant of Saruman must have had a part of his master’s power. “You are old,” he must have said to Théoden once, “and you’re not getting any stronger.” It may have been true, perhaps, but this is all the more a testament to the subtlety with which Gríma presented the thought. OK, so maybe Théoden may have been drugged, but I think the greater evil was done when Théoden accepted these words with its deeply-hidden lie. But Gandalf comes. He breaks the spell decisively (but probably not completely, alas!) with a combination of hope: [Gandalf: ]Not all is dark.. . . and the truth: [Gandalf: ]Nor does your age lie so heavily on your shoulders as some would have you think.However, Gríma will not give up without a fight. He tries to replant the lie: [Gríma: ]I care for you and yours as best I may. But do not weary yourself, or tax too heavily your strength.Then he tries to denounce the bringer of truth: [Gríma: ]Dear lord! It is as I feared. This wizard has bewitched you.But all his attempts failed: [Théoden: ]If this is bewitchment, it seems to me more wholesome than your whisperings. Your leechcraft ere long would have had me walking on all fours like a beast.And then the serpent is revealed for what it really is, and all its plots laid bare: [Gandalf: ]Down, snake! Down on your belly! How long is it since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price? When all the men were dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman you desire?Ah, Mighty Whitey. What an entrance you make. As my sister had said waaay above, light has indeed come into Meduseld, and all deeds of darkness are exposed in it.
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フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
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05-18-2005, 03:45 PM | #28 | ||
Banshee of Camelot
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Like Bethberry I find Tolkien's portreyal of the Rohirrim culture one of the most striking and intriguing things in this chapter.
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The "proverbs" that Estelyn mentioned are something I became aware of some time ago. I found them so intriguing I started looking for them in all Tolkien's works and collecting them. English not being my mothertongue, I am often not sure which ones are traditional proverbs and which ones Tolkien made up - they all sound so genuine! Like many things Tolkien wrote they are about something in the story, but at the same time they express a general, timeless truth. I love the scene where Gandalf raises Theoden's spirit and kindles hope and courage in him. It's so much subtler and better than the horrible exorcism scene in the movie (sorry about the "movie-bashing", but somehow just those scenes that I didn't like make me appreciate the book scenes all the more!)
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06-15-2005, 01:10 AM | #29 |
Scion of The Faithful
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I'm using the Kuchiyose: Edo Tensei no Jutsu on this thread . . .
This chapter—indeed, this Book III—reeks of distrust. For instance, Gandalf gets mistaken for Saruman (or his phantom) far too often—it had got me thinking that had Gandalf not announced himself in anyway before he entered Meduseld, Gríma’s reaction might have been, “What are you doing here, master?”
Then there’s this whole Lothlórien issue, which is part of the Rohirric culture, it seems. After all, Éorl was the first to show distrust: [Éorl: ][N]one can pass, few or many, through the Dwimordene where dwells the White Lady and weaves nets that no mortal can pass.Many others show it: Éomer, Háma, and of course, Gríma. In midst of all this mistrust, Gandalf comes with these words: [Gandalf: ][N]ow all friends should gather together, lest each singly be destroyed.This, I think, is the lesson that every good citizen of Middle-earth needed to learn. So sure, the Rohirrim may have initially distrusted the Huorns and the Ents, but by the time they rode to save Gondor (again), these Druedain-trusting chaps have gone a long way from the Dwimordene-fearing riders of Éorl.
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フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
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08-30-2006, 09:31 AM | #30 | |||
Spectre of Decay
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Various musings
Late have I come. May that not prove ill.
I'm currently re-reading LotR, and I reached this chapter last night. A few thoughts occurred at the time, and hopefully I can address a couple of the issues that have been raised in this conclave. Please forgive the lack of quotes: I'm stealing time from work and my books are elsewhere. Quote:
I enjoyed Bêthberry's analysis of the language in this chapter. I remember that we've discussed in the past Tolkien's opinion that archaic English is able to convey certain archaic attitudes and thoughts better than its modern equivalent; in fact, he uses Theoden's speech in this chapter as an example in one of his letters, translating it into a modern idiom as well as one so archaic as to be almost late Middle English. More than anything, the language in this chapter evokes for me Victorian and Edwardian translations of Old English poetry and prose, which were usually as close to transliteration as scholars could manage. Nowadays this approach is frowned upon, and the translator is expected to render the original into an entirely modern idiom (reflecting that to Anglo-Saxons the diction was not dusty and old-fashioned), but I prefer the old method's closeness in literal meaning, rhythm and word order. Here, for example, are some lines of Old English rendered in both styles; the quotation is long because it's relevant to this chapter: Quote:
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Returning briefly to The Wanderer, do those lines look familiar to anyone? Old English elegiac poetry often dwells on the fading and departure of old joys and glories, and this poem is about exile, separation from a lord, companions and the joys of the feasting hall. It also concerns itself with the consolation to be found in Christ, but the main body of the work describes the old warrior, doomed to wander the world friendless, bereft of comradeship and leadership. The poem lament for the Rohirrim picks up the emphasis on a fallen people, the lost joys of the past, and recounts it with much the same rhetorical device. One might even say that the whole theme of loss and fading that runs through LotR, not to mention the traditional English love of nostalgia, are the direct descendents of the Old English elegies. On a completely different note, the revival of Théoden, although he seems rather too quick to abandon his former mistrust of Gandalf, is beautifully structured. If this chapter is about anyone, it is about the Lord of the Mark, about whom all of its events revolve; and his recovery is central to the narrative. The old, bent king is first shorn of his poor counsellor; then he is asked to trust Gandalf and to turn his mind away from despair. As he begins to come to himself, he moves physically from the dim hall to the fresh air, where Gandalf takes charge of him and relieves Éowyn of her spiritual burden. Already he begins to notice that the world is brighter outside Meduseld, both literally (a hall has no windows) and figuratively: now that he sees the world for himself it is no longer so dark as he had been led to believe. Gandalf's next prompting is that he should abandon his stick and stand unaided, at which he does so and stands upright, revealing the strength and stature of his youth. Finally he is told to take his sword, but before he can hold one he performs the kingly act of judging an errant subject, in this case Éomer. Having judged both wisely and fairly, he accepts Éomer's renewed service by taking his sword, and at this moment, as his authority as king is restored, so his hands regain the strength to wield a king's weapon. Finally he calls his people to arms like the hero of some verse epic. Théoden grows physically, mentally and spiritually, and his authority recovers, all in this one sequence. More importantly, while we may suspect that Gandalf is helping him with more than an arm to lean on and some good advice, the wizard does nothing obvious. To Théoden's men it seems that their king has recovered without assistance. Perhaps Tolkien was trying to demonstrate how powerful confidence and positive thinking can be. Gríma has exercised no obvious magical powers, but he has repeatedly worked on Theoden's mood, prompting him to sit brooding in his hall rather than walking among his people, quietly and determinedly fostering a spirit of defeatism and misery, and eroding the king's self-confidence just as he gradually undermines his authority. Gandalf acts here as the kindler of spirits that Círdan predicts that he will be in the Silmarillion. Observe how he withdraws, from supporting Théoden physically to sitting on a step beneath him. Gandalf is demonstrating how a good advisor should behave, but also showing that ability to persuade and guide others in sensible directions. Théoden's confidence and stature grow in each scene from this point until his final, triumphant exit on the Pelennor Fields, and it is easy to believe that he will 'sleep better' for it. At the beginning of the chapter, its title seems to contrast the glorious hall with its decrepit occupant; by the end, Théoden more than lives up to his grand and heroic residence. That's about all I have time for on this subject. May I be forgiven my laggardly entrance.
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Man kenuva métim' andúne? Last edited by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh; 09-12-2006 at 07:06 AM. Reason: My translation was awful. It's now been improved for your edification and mine, |
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04-14-2007, 10:22 PM | #31 |
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Aragorns truw love?
When Aragorn meets Eowyn in this chapter some say that he is giving up that chance to be happy. I totally disagree he is happy and will gladly accept the consequences he gets from loving Arwen.
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09-15-2018, 05:52 PM | #32 | |||
Dead Serious
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Two things stood out for me on this reread:
First, does Gandalf have control of the weather or just really good timing? Quote:
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Given its dramatic position in the chapter, the question for me arises: is this just a case of literary timeliness or did Gandalf somehow influence the weather to line up with the drama of the moment? As an emissary of the Valar, operating now post-Moria in a heightened state of openness, it doesn't seem *entirely* implausible that Manwë has a hand here--but, should we then make something of the fact that this storm rose in the capital-E East? Setting aside meteorlogical concerns, I noticed Aragorn a lot this chapter (and I appear not to have been the only one: he's all over this thread). I don't have a new opinion to offer about his stubborn pride outside the doors regarding Andúril, but after the last few chapters and what I was noticing there, his prominence in a chapter where he doesn't really have anything to DO stuck out to me. In terms of action, this chapter is chiefly about Gandalf, Théoden, and Gríma--with Háma playing an interesting minor key note. Aragorn, by contrast, hasn't got much more to do than stand around and look tall. Nonetheless, he is quite prominent here. It's partly that he's our point-of-view character, though he shares that role with Gimli, who functions as the next-best thing to a hobbit when it comes to being down-to-earth. I think this is simply me realising what has probably been obvious to many: Aragorn is our hero in this part of the tale. Younger me was so used to the idea of Frodo as the main character and distracted by the chapters focussing on Merry and Pippin that I'd missed that point, but in the non-Frodo split of the story, the "conventional epic," Aragorn is the not-quite-conventional hero.
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09-15-2018, 06:56 PM | #33 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Gandalf's "wizard display", paticularly as a bearer of Narya and the one with power over fire, could reasonably include some form of play with light and shadow, even some lightning. These elements are seen in association with his "magic" quite frequently. But the real storm you mention does make me wonder - after all just a short time before Legolas sees the sunshine reflect off the roofs in Edoras. Was it a really fast-moving storm, hitting Edoras quite suddenly and passing by within half an hour? As for the significance of the East... In what way would the East be interested in Edoras to send a storm there? Or what could have occurred eastwards to make the storm originate from an "unnatural" cause at that time? Frodo and Sam are still wandering around, mostly unnoticed, not attracting any attention. Faramir's warriors could be up to something that would invite Sauron's anger, but aren't they always. And if Edoras was really the prime target of the storm - why? To keep Rohan subdued and mislead for longer? Definitely not out of consideration for Saruman's fate. Is it a manifestation of a flare of anger against Gandalf, Aragorn, or the proclaimed members of the Fellowship in general? Then why now, if orcs and a Nazgul have already spotted them over the Anduin and their presence and activities are fairly visible throughout TTT and ROTK? And I would describe Sauron's attitude towards these people more as scorn than anger. If we take the approach of a directed storm, then we have to explain who directed it and at whom (or what).
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09-15-2018, 10:36 PM | #34 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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09-16-2018, 12:48 AM | #35 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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We don't see Elrond controlling the weather in the air, which would match Vilya's character better. But maybe Rivendell is just happily placed far away from the serious not-quite-natural or at least pathetic fallacy weather that we see further East and South.
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