Lonely Star: Fanfiction/RPG discussion

[Child of the 7th Age]

NOTE: WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO POST NEW THREADS IN THE RPG FORUM. HOWEVER, WE ARE DEFINITELY GOING TO NEED A SPACE ON THE BOARD FOR DISCUSSIONS RELATING TO THE REWRITING OF THE RPG AND TRANSFORMATION INTO A FANFICTION NOVELA. I, THEREFORE, EDITED ONE OF MY EARLIER THREADS FOR THIS PURPOSE. I HOPE THIS IS WITHIN THE RULES.

Skip the first three responses which relate to my "old" question. The other stuff relating to our own RPG and rewrite starts beyond there.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[TheLadyAerowen]

I am currently doing this for The-Fifth's RPG- Of Wolves and Jewels. I havent put one on the Barrow-Downs FanFiction page, though. I have copied every post and put new lines to make everything kinda come together. Some posts I have had to entirely change, though because of some miscommunitation that was let by.

Whatever it is you need- just ask me, I'll see what I can do to help.

[ August 24, 2002: Message edited by: TheLadyAerowen ]

[Cimmerian]

Hey Child,

Elenna and I are writing the recently concluded "Rivendell RPG" into a Fanfiction which we intend to post in the fan ficiton section and also at the site - fanfiction.net, it is a taxing job structuring all the free flowing individual posts into a seamless plotline. But it's also fun. Apart from stitching all the posts, we are also adding some more back story, character descripitons and stuff.

I think your RPG could make a fine fanfic too as well as Gandalf's Partol one.

Good Luck! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Hi Cimmerian and Lady Aerowen --

Thanks for the replies. When I get a little more organized, I may get back to you with pm. sharon

[ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

The new discussion starts here:

Rose and I have agreed that, in the context of the fanfiction, we will be related. She is Rose Goodechild and I am also a Goodechild. (First name to be determined later.) This is why we are together at the beginning of the story.

I believe that Rose's family entrusted her to me as an older cousin. I am supposed to be keeping an eye on her and perhaps even teaching her a few things about getting on in life.

sharon

[Rose Cotton]

The trouble is, how do two hobbits get on a ship?

[Mithadan]

Child, have you seen my PMs, including the proposed backstory? Pio said she liked it as part of an intro. If we twiddle with the early story line, it would work. I sent you a PM about story line adjustments. Maybe all that stuff should be copied here so that we all can review? Or we can copy evryone on e-mail.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Mith -- Yes, your background information was great. I have that pm from you plus the discussion we had over a possible way of handling our Pio's "prior" adventure. I will post both of those here, but it may not be till tomorrow because of family obligations. Thanks for reminding me. sharon

[Child of the 7th Age]

I've finished editing and posting the first 7 items Helen sent me. She may change them further when she returns, but they're in good shape now.

You will probably want to go back and read them. This is where they are:

Page 16: Day 1, 8/26, 2:14 a.m.
Day 2, 8/27, 3:42 p.m.
Page 17: Day 3, 8/28, lst post on pge.
Day 4, 8/29, 4:3l p.m.
** Day 5, 8/30, 4:30 p.m.
Day 6, 8/31, 5:59 p.m.
Page 18: Day 7, 9/2, 12:37 p.m.

** Please note that this journal entry corresponds with Child's dream that follows a few posts later on pge 17, 8/30 at 8:32 p.m.

sharon

[ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Birdland]

Love Gamba's "diary". Can't wait 'til Helen gets back so we can have some fresh submissions from her.

Regarding the back history: Can I get a copy of it too? I'm still a little worried about how lil' ol' "non-canon" me is gonna be explained away.

This is jumping ahead some, but Helen's songs are all original, whereas I usually just choose old ballads that fit the situation, (if sometimes slightly). Will we still be able to use them, or loose them, or come up with original material? That's fine to do in an RPG, but will people object to them in a fan fiction?

[GreatWarg]

I suppose that means I'll have to go and read everything that's happened. Child: Do you want me to send you an outline of Khelek's studies and a reasonable amount of his background? Or do you wish for him to remain slightly 'mysterious' and on a level whicht he reader must guess about? Send me a PM answer then, and I'll have the outline ready.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Mithadan's proposed background information:

Mithadan was born the third and youngest son of Galasmir, lord of the small port town of Lond Lefnui which lay in the Anfalas of Gondor. It was said that Galasmir and his sons were descended in direct line from Elros, son of Earendil, and thus were possessed of a degree of Elven blood. Indeed the loremasters of Gondor had presented Galasmir with a scroll, naming each of his ancestors back to the First Age and, on feast days, he would produce the scroll for his guests and point proudly to the names which appeared at the head of the list: "Beren Erchamion (Camlost) and Luthien (Tinuviel)."

But the days of the First Age were long passed and now rarely did any sign of Elvish blood appear in that line. Indeed, Galasmir had fair hair and brown eyes as did two of his sons. But Mithadan was born with grey eyes and their colour did not fade or change in the weeks before his naming and thus his name was chosen. And his hair was not fair but rather raven black, the colour of the midnight sky. He grew tall and straight and when he reached his manhood, some whispered as he passed, "Verily, it is true the ancient saying that the line of Luthien and Beren shall never fail."

Yet he remained the youngest son of a lesser, though prosperous, lord of Gondor. He had barely reached the age of twenty years at the time of the War of the Ring and had been left behind by his father to guard the town and its port while Galasmir and his other sons marched proudly to Minas Tirith. While his role was an honourable one and indeed the Corsiars of Umbar landed a force of many men in Anfalas seeking to take the port, Mithadan was ever ashamed that he did not take part in the greater events to the east. And ever and anon some foolish cot holder, whether out of spite or besottedness, would name him Mithadan the Meaningless and it cannot be said that word of this did not reach his ears.

Thus, when his brothers returned from the War (Galasmir was slain in the Siege) Mithadan resumed his studies with renewed vigor and soon, taking some few tokens of his house with him, apprenticed as a mariner. Not long thereafter, he demonstrated sufficient skill and valour in repelling a raid out of Umbar that he was given command of his own vessel and began trading along the coasts traveling even as far as the Grey Havens far to the North. And Mithadan loved especially his visits to this Elven port for, as a child, he had explored the deserted haven of Edhellond which lay to the east of his home. With a few friends, he had snuck secretly from his house and, ignoring the legends that the haven was haunted, had journeyed there and stayed for several days with his fellows, fighting feigned battles in the defense of Gondolin where his ancestor Earendil had been born. When he returned days later, his father had beaten him soundly and forbade him from returning to the ruined city. But ever after, he fondly recalled those few days when he and his friends had been counted among the mighty of Beleriand.

Now, on one such journey to the Grey Havens, he returned with both cargo and passengers and among these was a strange Elf named Piosenniel. Tall and fair as any Elf, Piosenniel had dark hair which was oddly curled for one of the Eldar. On a leather belt, Piosenniel carried a sword and a number of sheathed knives. The belt held up breeches which in turn covered the tops of worn leather boots, a wanderer clearly this Elf. But what was most strange was that this well-armed, soldierly Elf was a maiden.

Mithadan knew that Elves valued their privacy but he found himself very curious about Piosennel. Elven maids rarely bear arms except at last resort, it was said, though none could deny their valour if old tales be true. However, she was aloof and singularly disinterested in speaking with him. The extent of their first conversation was that she was bound for Gondor, her errand was her own thank you, and no she would not join him at the Captain's Table. If the youngest son of a lesser lord learns little, one thing he learns is politeness. So he troubled her little, though politeness does not satisfy curiosity.

From other passengers, Mithadan learned that Piosenniel was well known in both the Grey Havens and Rivendell and had been rumoured to join the traveling companies at times, whatever they were. She was typically well mannered, if quiet, but was known to be impatient and said to be brave to the point of foolhardiness. She was also rumoured to be of odd heritage though none knew, or told, why.

No more could Mithadan learn and he resolved to let the matter drop as his vessel approached the Mouths of the Anduin. Here his helmsmanship and navigational skills were needed and there was little time to think of the secretive Elf. He assumed that Piosenniel would occupy some small place in his memory along with the many others who passed briefly through his life. But this was not to be.

_____________________________________________


Monday, I hope to put up the other background discussion which Mith and I had regarding the prior "adventure" concerning the Star. That was simply a discussion, not a draft of anything, and needs much more refinement and input (I hate that word!) from everyone. sharon

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: Mithadan ]

[Mithadan]

Bird, explain away! We know little about the Beornings and I can see no reason why a skilled shapechanger could not learn more than one shape. There's lots to discuss about who everyone is and how they got to where they needed to be at the outset of the tale. I'll wait for Child to post our earlier and very informal exchanges.

[Birdland]

Yet he remained the youngest son of a lesser, though prosperous, lord of Gondor.

Everybody's talkin 'bout the Seventh Son,
In the whole, wide world there is the only one!

Oops, sorry about that, Mith.

OK, I'll post "The Natural History of the Skin-Changers" tonight. As to how Birdie and Pio came to be friends; right now I can only think in terms of a Sancho Panza/Don Quixote kind of deal. But that doesn't really work, because as far as I recall Birdie never did a lick of work for Pio in the whole story.

Got any ideas, Pio?

[Child of the 7th Age]

I have two questions that need some clarification before I can go forward with Child's background.

QUESTION ONE: I really need to know what year of the Fourth Age our adventure starts in. I'm trying to think about Child's background, who she is and where she is from. Since some of the points of Child's background touch upon Bilbo's life as well as the Scouring of the Shire, I need to know how old Child would be at those times.

My impression is that we're in the first 20 years of the Fourth Age when we start out. If I had a preference, I would say 10 years into the 4th Age. What do others think?

Mith, I think this would effect you somewhat as well, since you have a reference in your introductory statement that you were in your 20s during the Ring War.

It's not that I plan to announce the exact year in the story, but I need some chronological guidelines to make sure I'm being realistic in discussing my character's past. E.g., Child could not have "studied" with Bilbo at the age of two years!

QUESTION TWO: Did hobbits ever marry as 'tweeners or did they have to be "of age", i.e 33, to get married? This is in relation to the late Third Age.

(This is an interesting point even outside this RPG. If they were always 33 or older, even for the girls, you'd have to assume that their fertility cycle was different than that of Man, since they seem to have had large families.)

sharon

[Child of the 7th Age]

I think that Child left the Shire after the Scouring and went to live in the world of men. Her husband or fiancee (depending on her age) was killed in the Scouring, and this was the immediate reason for her departure. It also had to do with the things she had learned, and feeling closed in by the Shire community. She presumably worked with children, either as a nanny or teacher, perhaps in the household of a minor lord. I have no idea how she met Pio, but it must have been in that stage of her life.

Do you think it is possible that a hobbit woman would do such a thing? Remember that Child had some basic education from her neighbor Bilbo, and presumably might have had some contacts through that. Any ideas?? Comments??

Rose is a young relation. She's an orphan (sorry Bird! sory Rose!!) and has been given to Child by Rose's aunt to keep an eye on her for a bit. Rose has the option of staying with Child at the end of the story or going home to her aunt and uncle in the Shire (or becoming a hobbrim, I guess.)

sharon

[Rose Cotton]

Well I'm definatly not going to go live with some Aunt.

Hmmmmmm...Live with Child or be a Hobbrim...
That's a tough one, I'd have to think about it. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Naaaa, Are you kidding Child? Your stuck with me whether you like it or not. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

How old would I be? Where there really Goodchilds? If not then I could make up my parents and give them some heroic death. Or we could just be boring and say they drowned. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
Am I in my tweens or am I younger then that. I'd have to be older then Daisy and she's 16. If I know how old I am in the story I can determine when my parents died, how long I lived with this mysterious Aunt and when Child took costody of me.

When you adopt me will we imedeatly leave the Shire for wherever? I'm probably asking too many questions. But I just love the idea of this being a real story.

[piosenniel]

What background info is required of Pio? Other than what she blathered on about just before the excursion into Beleriand?

I just found out I have to rework the Pio's father angle - It has recently come to my attention through reading and discussion on another board that the two sons of Dior probably were young children when they die in the assault on Menegroth. So, I guess I'll be inventing another elven daddy!

When I get it figured out, I'll go back to my 'Pio History' posts and edit them appropriately.

[mark12_30]

I'm blythely and glibly assuming that my characters, not being "originals", need no introduction besides what is in the text of the story; Child, is that so?

But you could end up stuck with Gamba's songbook, wondering where to put it.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Pio -- the background information may be things like this:

1. how did Pio become friends with Child and Bird. There are several indications in the story that their friendship goes back some time.

2. how did we get the Star and the time travel device? It grew out of the Blue Wizard story. Do we want to keep the Wizards as backgound?--probably not. But if not that way, then how?

Mith and I had one preliminary exchange of ideas on this. I have listed it below.

SHARON: Perhaps, the original background story might read like this. Piosenniel and her friends -- Child, Rose, Bird, Veritas--had an adventure where they discovered an Elvish ship being sailed by someone (a Man impersonating Cirdan??) who claims to be taking yearning travellers (not Elvish ones) to the Blessed Lands. He has stolen the ship from some unknown location. His actual plot is to steal their things and dump the unfortunates in the middle of the seas.

With the help of some of Pio's Elvish friends and of Tuor and Idril, our group was able to stop this deception and seize back the ship. (The Valar didn't like this scheme, and this is why Tuor and Idril were sent out to help. --We have to have something in the background story to explain their presence with us.) As a reward, Pio and her friends have been granted the ship. Pio is coming to Gondor to discover more about the strange device on the helm (i.e. the time travel thing).

MITHADAN: A few difficulties with your proposal: You'll have to explain what Pio, Child, Rose, and Bird are doing together/ How would a man get an Elven ship? How would a man or an Elf for that matter, have the time travel device?

But some pieces of it work. How about this? A man" is in Gondor, recruiting the hobbits, there on another errand, for this voyage to Valinor. My draft bakstop stas basically intact. Mith and Pio become aware of what sounds to them like an evil plot. Either they pursue the Star in Mith's ship or Pio goes along on the Star and Mith follows. When the Star is caught the "Man" disappears (perhaps he is Ancalimon in disguise as we later discover--though this may be a paradox--I hate time travel stories) When the Star is searched, the device is found. Its purpose is discovered through experimentation, or Tuor and Idril explain it (this gives them a real reason to return to Middle-earth. We find Kali, etc. But where does Angara come in? We'll have to work through all these issues.

[piosenniel]

But some pieces of it work. How about this? A man" is in Gondor, recruiting the hobbits, there on another errand, for this voyage to Valinor. My draft bakstop stays basically intact. Mith and Pio become aware of what sounds to them like an evil plot. Either they pursue the Star in Mith's ship or Pio goes along on the Star and Mith follows. When the Star is caught the "Man" disappears (perhaps he is Ancalimon in disguise as we later discover--though this may be a paradox--I hate time travel stories) When the Star is searched, the device is found. Its purpose is discovered through experimentation, or Tuor and Idril explain it (this gives them a real reason to return to Middle-earth. We find Kali, etc. But where does Angara come in? We'll have to work through all these issues.

*****************************************

If we use Mithadan's backstory for the intro, then this would seem to be a more natural link-up to it.

I do have several comments about it:

Child has always had a fascination with, yearning for, the West, it would only seem natural that she and Rose would be taken in by the promise of sailing to Valinor.

It seems as if Pio and Mith have managed to become acquainted with each other. We would need to say something about how that occurred.(since the last we heard, she had politely refused his invitation to dine at the captain's table and then left for Gondor, and he had gone on with his busy life)

The 'man' who disappears does not necessarily have to be Ancalimon - he can simply be one recruited by Ancalimon, or even sent by Nienna, to effect the delivery of the elven ship and the time crystal to those who will become the companions. Tuor and Idril can then show up to explain the use of the crystal to us and be sufficiently elvishly vague about the identity of who sent the 'man'(eg. 'The One Who Lives West of West') Somewhere after this sketchy info is given, we can recruit Veritas - whom Pio knows to be a wiz at figuring out the intricacies of all sorts of devices.

Can Angara simply come with the ship? Or can Tuor and Idril bring her to us as a needed companion? They would be intimately acquainted with evil Wyrms. Perhaps she is to be the one sent to 'redeem' the history of the dragon folk.

Bird is an old travelling comrade of Pio's. they've been through rough situations together, and have an easy sort of camaraderie. Let's have them be travelling together and staying at some dive in Gondor, as they are low on funds and 'between' jobs so to speak. Perhaps Mithadan can have a chance meeting with Pio and the strange story of the 'trip to Valinor' ship can be told by him. A plan is hatched (this would be just the type of odd and possibly unsavory adventure that Bird and Pio excel at) and the three of them would go to 'save' the hobbits and Bird and Pio to make what monies they can from it.

Then on to Kali, and back to pick up Khelek when we time shift to 4th Age Gondor.

Think this is workable?

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Pio and Mith --

Bear with me. This will be long.

I have hesitations about this. I know that I suggested some of it myself so I'm sorry, but I see problems. The is particularly true if we assume the person on board is Ancalimon or his agent, or another Valar agent. Let me explain.

Everything I know about Ancalimon and the Valar suggests they wouldn't have used a "ruse" like this. Whoever did this is deceiving hobbits. By offering a trip to Valinor, even in jest, they are encouraging hobbits to consider avoiding their "doom", that of being mortal. In Tolkien, this is a serious charge. Why would one of the Maiar or Valar suggest hobbits go against a basic precept of Eru, even if it's only done as a means to get us the ship?

Plus Ancalimon has always treated hobbits with respect and affection, and maybe a little exasperation, but he has never belittled them. This ruse makes hobbits look a bit gullible and silly and, also, as if they can be easily misled. That isn't so. Hobbits were chosen to carry the Ring both because their ambitions were small and they were resistent to deceit.

When you're under four feet and you live in a world of Men and Elves who may be twice your height, the one thing you have going is your wits and your brain (not in an academic sense, but in a practical one). You may be tricky or deceptive but you're not gullible. And you don't trust strange situations or people.

Just look at Sam's attitude about life. Tolkien calls him (not Frodo) the most repesentative hobbit. No self respecting hobbit (Child included) would trust a big person in this way to sell their possessions and get on a ship bound for someplace they've never been. Remember Child's own experiences. Living among men, she has received her share of stares and raised eyebrows. Remember how she and Bilbo heard the "learned" Men announcing that hobbits were "animals." In the Fourth Age, Men couldn't even come in to the Shire, so how are they supposed to attract all these hobbit recruits?

Also, Child's interest in Valinor is atypical. Because of her love of lore, she might want to sail to the West, but most hobbits couldn't care less! Generally, they live in the present, not the past like Child, or the future like most men.The one race that historically wanted to avoid their "doom" was Men, not hobbits (sorry Mith!) I think you'd have more takers for a trip like this in a community of men. (Sharon might stand in line for the first ticket on the mystery ship to Valinor, but Child would wait by the side and suspect a trick.)

So I don't see why you'd have someone from Valinor pulling a scheme like this. And I don't think hobbits would volunteer to go. (LOL) Plus, without Ancalimon, just putting a "trickster" in his place, I don't like the idea of getting such a wonderful magical ship from an "impure" source. It should be clear and light, just like the phial of Galadriel (see below on proposed origin of our ship.)

Where does this leave us? Perhaps we need a simpler approach. If one of the Valar or Maiar wanted someone from Middle-earth to go on a quest, I think they would have done exactly what was done with both Bilbo and Frodo. They'd have sent an agent or gone themself to speak with that person. The person would be given a chance to say "yes or no" with no trickery involved. (They might not understand the full extent of their commitment, but that's another question--who does in life?).

And who would initially be the one "chosen" by the Valar? I think it would be Pio because of her dual heritage. She fills both sides of the prophecy. (Hey, maybe we should have a prophecy aboutthat.)

I think Idril and Tuor would have been the agents sent to Pio for this purpose. Maybe they even felt a bit sad because they had some premonition that all might not end well. Plus, Pio already knew them, and they understood the secret of her heritage. (The reader won't be told this secret yet.)

This kind of introduction also makes Pio's death even more critical in the story line. A little like losing Gandalf in LotR.

It's quite possible that Pio was even waiting in line at Grey Havens ready to board the boat to you-know-where, and she gets pulled out of line with this strange request. Tuor and Idril tell her simply that some of her hobbit kin have been lost in the Bay of ????. She must rescue them, find out their needs, and try to help them. She is told to pick her own crew. It must include hobbits, Elves, and men, including one hobbit who is of full age. Pio assumes the Elves and men are the practical ones who will carry out the actual mission, and the hobbits are along simply to make the rescued hobbits feel comfortable. (Boy, is she wrong. Pio has a lot to learn about hobbits!)

Just as Frodo received the phial of Galadriel, Pio is given the ship on loan from Tuor and Idril who have sailed it from Valinor. But NOT the time-travel device. That will come later. Pio picks up her friends Veritas and Bird and they sail to Minas Tirith with Tuor and Idril trailing behind in their own ship. Pio wants to find out more information regarding that bay, maps, hobbit history, etc.. As Pio starts her voyage, she is startled to disover that a small green dragon sits at the top of her mast.

(***I will need to edit my own posts about "owning" the dragon, although it's clear Angara is curious about hobbits and pushes her way gently into my mind.) The idea about Angara avenging her kin is a good one.

The story begins with the background already written by Mith. Then Mith encounters Pio some place (tavern, library??). Pio tells the above story to Mith. He agrees to link up with her. Then Pio has to get a hobbit. Minas Tirith is not exactly crawling with hobbits, but Pio (or more likely Mith?)does have some previous knowledge of Child who takes care of children in the home of one of the minor nobility and gives them some book learning. This hobbit also is knowledgeable about what passes for hobbit history, so that is a plus. Rose is an orphan cousin(SORRY BIRD)who is loosely under Child's care and who works in the same household as she does. Everyone boards the ship.

As we've been given such scanty information, we're out on the Bay looking along the shore or trying to find islands where "real" hobbits might be stranded. Boy, are we surprised when Kali pops up. We find him in a sea cave along the shore. (or do you want to do it in deep water as the RPG assumes? But Kali doesn't have gills.)

Kali is the guardian of the time travel device, only he doesn't know what it is. He gives it to us. It has been in his family for generations. We later discover that it was presented to his people by Ulmo at the time of the first choosing. Their mission has been to keep and guard it and wait for the ship with the single star.

Does this make any sense?

We'd have to edit those sections where we assume the ship "belongs" to us in equal shares. At the end of this adventure one of the Elves will presumably sail her back to Valinor. A ship this magical and powerful just shouldn't "belong" to the likes of us. It's too special.

sharon

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Mithadan]

Very impressive! But did I miss something? Where is Bird?

My only hesitation is the lack of tension through the time Kali is found. Also it places Tuor and Idril in the position of: (1) lying; and (2) effectively consigning Pio to her death. This is uncomfortable. Finally, is there enough time for the crew to develop the degree of dedication and emotion which they feel for one another?

These issues can be worked through. Perhaps Child somehow receives the message about the Hobbits in trouble and enlists the aid of Pio, Mith, Bird, et al. Mith's ship becomes the Lonely Star and Kali has the crystal, etc. No need for Tuor and Idril in the Fourth Age.

Or, we return to the idea of wrongdoing as in the RPG and as you initially proposed. Because Kali has the crystal, the obstacle of 'how did a man/Elf get it' is eliminated.

[piosenniel]

And who would initially be the one "chosen" by the Valar? I think it would be Pio because of her dual heritage. She fills both sides of the prophecy. (Hey, maybe we should have a prophecy about that.)

I think Idril and Tuor would have been the agents sent to Pio for this purpose. Pio already knew then, and they understood the secret of her heritage. It's quite possible that Pio was even waiting in line at Grey Havens ready to board the boat to you-know-where, and she gets pulled out of line with this strange request. Tuor and Idril tell her simply that some of her hobbit kin have been lost in the Bay of ????. She must rescue them, find out their needs, and try to help them. She is told to pick her own crew. It must include hobbits, Elves, and men, including one hobbit who is of full age. Pio assumes the Elves and men are the practical ones who will carry out the actual mission, and the hobbits are along simply to make the rescued hobbits feel comfortable

I hate to be picky here BUT - this would, in my mind require a major revision in Pio's character. She is not the sort you would find standing in line at the Grey Havens. In fact, the only way she got dragged to the West is by a craven orc spear. Idril and Tuor are sad(Idril, mostly)because Pio tends to play down her elven heritage and refuses the call to go West. There should be no premonition on their part - that would spoil the surprise of Pio's death. I would feel very uncomfortable making such a drastic change to Pio's character from how I meant her to be.

Let's leave out any prophecy for the elf, too. Perhaps Tuor and Idril can simply approach her and Bird with a proposition while they're in Gondolin in the sleazy dive. Given enough potential for travel, thrills, and the possibility of monies to be earned, I think they would go for it. Pio has her inherent fondness for hobbits, and the fact that they were in need of assistance would be an extra incentive.

The problem is why would I and T do this. How would they know about the 'lost' hobbit's? Why would they even care? The Valar?

Let's not make the 'request' for help too delineated from T & I - Pio and Bird are quite adept at picking an appropriate crew; it would be more in keeping with their characters if they did that.

I can see picking up Mith in the tavern and you in the library(yes, Mith should be the one familiar with you). We still need to write something of how Pio might know that Mith is a good pick for the crew. Veritas can be an old friend of Pio's picked for skill in navigation/charts/enjoying wine.

Why would the Valar send I and T? Did they know they had a connection to a hobbit friendly half-elf?

Aack! Now that I think about the whole thing, I don't even like the idea of the Valar having their hand in the beginning of the story quite so much. They always seemed so removed from the concerns of M-E! Can we think of something less planned and contrived by them?

How about we don't bring in I and T either at the beginning? Perhaps Bird and Pio can win the pink slip to the ship in a game of chance. Then, you can hire us because you have heard of some lost hobbit families (that should be a good scene - Child in the sleazy tavern interviewing the owners of the ship she wishes to hire. We work cheap!). Mithadan can have either have an Ulmo prompt about joining us, or he can be sitting nearby when you are discussing your plans and need for us. Or you can attempt to hire him, but his boat is in the shop for repairs so he hooks you up with us and the price for that is his getting to go along with us. I'd just like to see something less mystically oriented at the beginning and more down to earth.

Other questions:

In what Age are we starting the fanfic, btw?
Are we leaving in the ship christening scene?

Sorry to be so rambling - I'm just brainstorming a bit.

[Rose Cotton]

It's always the hobbits getting rescued. Why not have Pio get lost at sea and the hobbits have to rescue her. No, just kidding. But I don't think I like that reason.
I agree with Mith that we have to build a strong connection between the Lonely Star crew.
I've looked and I don't see Goodchild on the hobbit family tree so I'm asuming that Child made them up. So I'm just going to go ahead and make up my short past. We don't have to refer back to it but I would like to know where my charicter's roots are.
I think that I'm gonna be either 18 or 19.

If any of you would like to advise me on my little back story feel free.

[GreatWarg]

If you think that Idril and Tuor are setting Pio up for death, then doesn't Boromir basically sign up for his own death? You can't see all ends. And doesn't Frodo still take the Ring, even though he knows he will be pursued by the Enemy, and they will be in lands dangerous and unknown? It takes a hobbit to continue on. And maybe because Poi has hobbit blood in her, then she would still take on the Quest because she knows she has to do it. Sam could've just left Frodo, but it's his friendship that keeps him by Frodo's side, even though he's fearful of what may befall to them. In other sense: Poi was meant to do this. I do not disagree with any prophecy either. After all, how many folk are there in Middle-earth with a hobbit mother and an Elf father? [Meaning no disrespect.]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Rose - The Goodchild's are real--look at the Gamgee family tree. Our most famous relative, through marriage, was Sam Gamgee. Bell Goodchild was Sam's mother. Bell had 6 children (from 1365-1383) and then must have died sometime after 1383 shire time when Marigold was born. That would be 38 years before the fourth age begins. Robert Foster says the Goodchilds are a hobbit family, probably working class. (Get out there in the fields Rose!! You need to start planting and hoeing. Hope this helps.

Except for Bell, I don't have any more information about the Goodchild line. You might want to have Bell somewhere in your family tree. If you are 18 years old, and this is year 10 of the Fourth Age, you would have been born in 3014 of the Third Age.This is when Gandalf was out looking for Gollum. You were four years old when the Ring quest began, and 5 at the Scouring.

But we need to check with Mith on the date of our adventure.

sharon

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[mark12_30]

GreatWarg, But Idril was there when Pio died. She saw her die. Idril's past was Pio's future. --Helen

[Child of the 7th Age]

Possible Approaches to our Story:

I. PRETTY CERTAIN

A. Time Crystal I think we mainly agree that Kali will be the guardian of the time crystal. This will free up the rest of the story line quite a bit.

B.Mith's Background We want to start off with this, if possible. We will fit in other things after that section either as live action or as stories being told and/or discussed.

II. UNCERTAIN

A. Tuor and Idril

1. T and I may appear as messengers from Valinor at the beginning of the story, OR

2. T and I will appear after we get the time crystal from Kali. Maybe their presence is automatically triggered when an Elf takes up the crystal and tries to make it work. Once again it is T and I's concern for the hobbit peoples (and perhaps their guilt about what happened in Gondolin), along with their Ulmo ties,that generates this. I wonder if Idril will be a bit flummoxed by Pio as the unlikely candidate for the task.

3. Drop T and I altogether. There are several problems with this. They are woven very tightly into the story at a number of points. They gave us the Morgoth memo re Beleriand and revealed certain things to Child and the hobbits regarding the prophecy and the role of the hobbits. (We could probably manage the memo from another source, but the prophecies and role of the hobbits would be much harder.) Also, they are part of the cristening scene. The Idril of Beleriand is not as Elflike or understanding as the one who came to us on the Star. She has obviously grown in compassion and understanding, and that growth is interesting to see.

Any other ideas?

My personal preference would be #1, or #2.

B. Pio's Role and Beginning of Story

1. "Pio, the Unlikely Candidate" ---We know Pio is not a sylphlike creature standing with yearning in her eyes at Grey Havens. But there aren't many hobbit/Elven blends around. Is it possible that she is the unlikely candidate to do this job, even if she doesn't like it, and even if T and I don't like it? I mean instead of coming to Grey Havens, T and I must go meet her in the sleazy tavern of Minas Tirith. Maybe Pio's initial reasons for taking on this task are not the idealistic ones that T and I might want or expect. Hey, Pio is out of money and she needs a good gig (well, maybe not that crude.) I do like the incongruity of this scene.

The Valar have nothing to do with this part. This is an Elvish matter. If I were Idril, I would not feel so good about escaping Gondolin, and having all those hobbits trapped. In this scenario, Idril is trying to make up for some of her own mistakes. (Hey, they didn't have to stick the hobbits by the North gate. Why weren't they closer to the secret tunnel?)

2. We go with something closer to Mith's suggestion and yours. Child finds some allusion to lost hobbits. This might come from one of several sources: something Bilbo said to her, an old lay (Helen could come up with something), a document, a story told by a Stoor family. She goes to Mith and his ship becomes the Star. Or Mith's ship is laid up and Pio wins the Star through a game of dice.

Does our ship need to be Elven? Or not?

3. Mean man uses ship for ill purposes (fake trips to Valinor?? for men and hobbits). We use Mith's ship to take off after him and do battle and win the ship.

Pat -- what general scenario do you feel most confortable with? I still like #1, but don't want to do anything that Pio would feel uncomfortable with Are the others better? Which one?

By the way, Child is too poor to hire Pio's ship, I think. The only one with any money at all would be Mith.

I vote for keeping the christenting.

IS IT YEAR 10 OF THE 4TH AGE??? I need to know this to build Child's background.

[piosenniel]

Yes to number I A&B.
******************************************
As to II: I think A2 is a good choice.

Once again it is T and I's concern for the hobbit peoples (and perhaps their guilt about what happened in Gondolin), along with their Ulmo ties,that generates this.

Do you also want to give them a tie-in to Ancalimon and perhaps to Nienna, somehow? (We don't need to bring this in at the beginning of the story. Idril can hint at it to Child and the others in her vague, elven way.) There seems to be some background master plan to save Arda going on, which doesn't necessarily include all the Valar - not that the other Valar are opposed to it. They are just indifferent. I don't think Idril would be flummoxed by Pio as the candidate for the task. I think she would relish it - Eru knows she has spent many years trying to improve they wayward elf and set her on the right track.
******************************************
B2 of this section is preferable to me. It makes the entrance into the story after Mith's intro more realistic and saves any interventions from the West until later.

Now that I think about it - no, we don't need the ship to be an elven ship.

What about this idea: Child comes to the tavern to hire the ship to pursue the stories and clues concerning the lost hobbits. She's been told the man, Mithadan, might have a ship available for hire. She pours out her story to him before he has a chance to tell her he is just about to lose his ship due to an acumulation of poor previous voyages and debts of his coming due. Pio and Bird, their ears ever open for a promising deal, overhear what she is proposing, and propose to strike a deal with the hobbit and the man. For a share in the ship and a share in whatever profits this voyage might generate, they would be willing to pay the debt off. Mithadan can keep a share in the ship if he agrees to pay them back the price of his share from the generated profits. Surely Child and Rose can come up with a little money to put into the pot - all with the agreement that the elf and skin changer will eventually be paid the price of the others' shares of the ship. Pio can bring Veritas on board either later, or she can be sitting there with them, eavesdropping.

I think the original name of the ship should not be The Lonely Star - we should rechristen it (probably at a later date if we aren't dragging I & T into the beginning of the story - possibly when we find Kali and resolve to go on the quest). Mithadan can conveniently find the flag of Eärendil in his seaman's trunk, or something like that.(opening the possibility for another reinforcement of his ancestry). Khelek we can pick up at the library in Minas Anor as per the RPG.

What do you think? Might this sort of scenario be doable for us?

I cannot think how we might introduce the dragon . . . unless, she has been a travelling companion picked up by Bird and Pio on a previous adventure (Perhaps Idril sent her as part of the background plan?).
wouldn't that be interesting when the trio plus the wyrm come aboard Mithadan's ship for the first time!
********************************************
I see no reason we can't just make it year 10 of the Fourth Age. Anyone else see problems with this specific date?

[Rose Cotton]

I don't know about Angara. In the story I see her as a mystereious charicter. And if she is already a well known person then it will take away some of the mystery. I think she should come in some other way. I'm trying to think of how but I'll have to get back to you on that.

I like the idea of Pio being the unlikely hero. We definatly should NOT drop T and I.
They add deph and a bit of Pio's past.
Child's right that we probably wouldn't have alot of money. But maybe while we're traveling around perhaps she could have me doing a few odd jobs to pick up money. I wouldn't mind. It would be something for Rose to to besides following Child around all day.

And thumbs up to 10 year of third age. I will set up my backround tonight and tommorow.

[Child of the 7th Age]

RE: ARRIVAL OF DRAGON

Rose has a good point about the "mystery" of Angara. I don't think she should "belong" to anyone (even though she crawled out of Mith's sack at the birthday party). Indeed, I don't think she should even have come on anyone's travels. Nor should we have an Elf or Valar or someone else give her to us.

Angara is one of the very unique things about our story (canon or not!), and she deserves an entrance that is in keeping with her personality!

She is very much her own creature. She is kind of like a cat. She doesn't live with us--she lets us live with her! I honestly don't think even Idril or Tuor know a great deal about her and her background.

Tolkien never writes about the "good" dragons, the uncorrupted ones, so it must be a very secret thing. (kind of like free shapechangers)

You see, I am quite sure, we didn't choose her, or bring her along. She chose us.

I wonder what it would be like to be on a small sailing ship bobbing along in the water, and see a dragon soaring overhead. Quite upsetting! I think Child and the other hobbits would have been alarmed. Perhaps even Mithadan and Bird? Maybe it's only Pio who's been alive long enough to recognize her for what she is--an uncorrupted creature--and stop the rest of us from taking pot shots at her. (Not that we didn't try, and not that we would ever succeed in bringing her down.)

I'd love to see Angara alight on the deck and explain to us why she is "taking charge" of this pitiful expedition as she has pity on us poor unfortunates who obviously have so few talents or skills!!

And, boy, she'll never let us live down those pot shots that Mith and Child and Rose took at her! I can well imagine Angara having arguments with Child over this lack of respect.

Mith was worried about the lack of tension in the early plot. Perhaps, Angara should come quite early. This might make for some physical action and suspense and would also help draw the crew together. Nothing like going to battle to build a little camraderie, even if we've managed to pick the wrong target!

[ September 05, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[piosenniel]

Good idea about Angara! Let her come early - perhaps once we are put out to sea. Do you think she might point us toward Kali? Or be in the vicinity of Kali and find us then?

[Child of the 7th Age]

The idea of having her come just before Kali, and there being some unspoken connection with that. Perhaps, we've been searching for a long time with absolutely no luck. Then this crazy dragon shows up, looks down her nose at us, and suggests we search such and such. Voila, Kali emerges. We try to press Angara for more explantion, but she only blows smoke rings at us.

Angara would love it! And, by the way, there shouldn't be any attempt in the story to explain her or how she fits in. She just doesn't. Her background should be very mysterious. I don't even think we should discuss her "kin" as we did in the last story. She is a one and only! (kind of like Beagle's Last Unicorn) And that's really a bit sad too.

[piosenniel]

Have we moved toward a start to the story after Mith's intro? Are we leaning in some direction?

Will we meet in Minas Anor in IV 10? Then go look for the Lost Hobbits? Angara drops down on our deck then. Next we find Kali who has the time crystal. A visit by Tuor and Idril to help us learn to use it? And then back to Minas Anor to the Great Library to find more @ the lost hobbits and then we're on our way? Is this sort of what we're thinking, very abbreviated, of course?

[Mithadan]

Love it!

Just add Bird to the passenger list coming south from the Havens, with a bit of introduction and some humor and we're on our way.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Sounds good. I'm in.

I'm working on Child's background bio. It will probably be next week till I can post it on account of our holidays this weekend.

Rumor has it that one of Child's aunts has mysteriously died and left her with a small inheritance which might possibly help her to invest in the Star. I fear, however, that this sum of money is quite meager, and Child will be unpleasantly surprised to find she doesn't have enough to do what she wants. So I guess she will have to "lower her standards" and go along with the somewhat disreputable Pio and Bird, as well as the slightly more reputable Mithadan. (Parts of Child are positively Victorian, but I guess that is true of much of the Shire.)

Ah, yes, those vexing lost hobbits. Many years ago, when she was bothering her neighbor Bilbo, he told her a strange tale about a group of "lost" hobbits who lived along a seacoast and made their living from the sea. This fired her imagination, and she has wondered about it ever since.

I am not yet certain what Child finds in Minas Tirith, but my guess is that she is searching through ship's logs from the Third Age. One of them may include to brief and fleeting reference to a large storm and a subsequent rescue of something referred to as a "sea hobbit." Unfortunately, this sea hobbit was so injured by the storm that he immediately died. This occurred in the Bay of ____________ where we later find Kali. (Someone please fill in this blank.)

[ September 06, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Birdland]

(Birdie shyly raises hand)

Cape of Andrast? Or maybe Anfalas? Or maybe TolFalas, though it wouldn't be much of a sail.

[Rose Cotton]

The story line sounds great. I'm all for it.

[Child of the 7th Age]

TWO QUESTIONS AND A COMMENT:

I. CHILD'S NAME: Child's "proper name is "Camelia Brockhouse". For the purposes of this fanfiction, should she go by "Child", or by "Cami" in everyday situations on the ship? Any preferences? (Either is fine with me.)

Child is obviously a strange name for anyone in Middle-earth (indeed for anyone anywhere!). If "Child" is used, do we need an early reference to explain how she acquired this nickname?

II. KALI'S SPEECH In the early RPG, Kali spoke in "baby talk" with broken sentences and incorrect grammar. This was based on the assumption he knew little Westron. Yet all other sea inhabitants, e.g. Levanto and his folk, had no trouble with Westron or grammar.

Plus Kali has a Westron name--from "Kalimac"! Would his parents give him such a name if they didn't know Westron?

In my opinion, we need to correct this. Perhaps, at the beginning of the story, Kali will use simple words and short sentences, but not "baby talk". He had been living alone, and not used to conversation, or having so many people about. But, for the sake of his self respect, and to present him as a serious character, the baby talk has to go. Would you agree?

III. LAND HOBBITS VRS. SEA HOBBITS This is something I briefly discussed in a few pms, but I wanted to bring it here so everyone could see it. These two groups seem to have had a very different evolution.

From Tolkien's brief allusions to early Third Age hobbits in the Anduin, it is clear they were quite "primitive." With the second choosing, those few kudk who were more inclined to lore and poetry and the music of the sea must have made the choice to become hobbrim. Perhaps, those who had such mystical leanings were also entranced with the idea of helping out in some way at the end of time.

These sea-hobbits will, in effect, become the "keepers of Eru's Mount." It is in the hobbrim line that all the tales of Beleriand and Numenor survive as well as Lindo's poetry, the memory of Nitir, etc. We are given a brief taste of this when Kali is able to sing some songs that no 4th age land-hobbit would know.

It's no wonder that the hobbits of the Shire were such a prosaic lot! Most of the mystics and Elven types, i.e, the "malcontents", would have separated off at the second choosing.

Some of us have seen Frodo as having some kind of Elven leanings, but here's another angle:

Gandalf gazes at Frodo: "Ah, he reminds me of Kali and the other hobbrim. What a throwback he is! No wonder he loves the sea so much.

The history of the hobbits then remains with the "hidden" hobbits. The only exception are the events of the later 3rd age which Bilbo and Frodo wrote down. I think this differentiation will be made clear to Child when she speaks with Ancalimon.

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]