A "Complete Silmarillion" in Spanish

[gondowe]

Hello everybody; first of all, sorry for my english.
I'm a 36 years old Spanish Tolkien reader and fan from 1985, and when I read for the first time "The Silmarillion" in 1987, it was a shock. Then they come the "Unfinished Tales" here in Spain and in 1990 it was published here "Lost Tales I". The next book I acquired was in English the next year, because it was an stop in translations to Spanish. Since I read the complete original "Fall of Gondolin" I wanted to complete a final "Fall", and I started to do it as handwork. When "Morgoth's Ring" and "War of the Jewels" comes at last, the project was enlarged to the whole Silmarillion.
I only write to say that from many years ago, I have my personal vision of a dreamed "Fall of Gondolin" and "Silmarillion".... but in Spanish, called "Traducciones del elfico" ---> "Translations from the Elvish", but in Spanish, its a coincidence. It' similar to the project of this website, but have some differences of my own opinion.
I Know that is not the language of Tolkien and is a sacrilege, but is a work of a life easy to read for me and my people, and is worked from the official Spanish translation of "The Silmarillion" and the other books, most of all translated by me. It is updated when a new book comes, with new information, the last whit "The Children of Hurin". I'm expecting the publication of Arda Reconstructed, if it gives me more information to complete my vision.
I found this website a year ago, ( I'm new in the web), and I saw the project, and I did take a few ideas to make better "The Fall of Gondolin".
I believe in Tolkien and I believe in the work of his son, but I think we need a Silmarillion not better but complete, revised.
I think was the purpose of Christopher.
Of course I don't want to publish it. It's for my personal tasting. I'm proud of it.

Thank you for this website, and go on with the project

[Maédhros]

Do you plan on sharing it?

I'm fluent in spanish and i would be interested in seeing it too, if it were possible?

[Findegil]

Hello Gondowe,

Even so I can not read Spanish at all, I would very much appreciate if you would share your Ideas about the work undertaken. I know that a complete comparison is out of question, but probably you can highlight some point of divergence between our work and yours?

Respectfuly
Findegil

P.S.: Even so my time is very limited in the moment, I would very much like to go on with this project. What is about my long term colleges Meadhros and Aiwendil, are we able to go on?

[Maédhros]

P.S.: Even so my time is very limited in the moment, I would very much like to go on with this project. What is about my long term colleges Meadhros and Aiwendil, are we able to go on?

Yes, I'm able to go on, but like yourself, my time is limited. Let me pm you as to what it is we should be discussing in the proyect.

[gondowe]

I'm pleased to know that you're interested in my ideas and if I can contribute with my opinion I'll be double pleased.

First of all I have to say my ideas about the canonical works and its interpretation.
I think basically that as an exemplary mythology, this one of Middle-Earth is unfinished and formed by multiple texts, some of them merely rough copies or first drafts.
With this in mind I think we can not invent nothing apart for editorial sentences to join the established ideas of Tolkien (as did Christopher), even names (except some few in “Fall of Gondolin” about I’ll say later).

The basis for the complete text must be the material from the end of the writing of The Lord of the Rings to the early 60’s, Then complete with old texts as next to the 50’s as we can. From the texts of later 60’s we can only take some few ideas, for the most are essays and rough notes about a later development than never came, (such as the number of Balrogs, the origin of orcs, etc, even the post- Lord of the Rings Round version of Arda due to the need of a complete restructuration of the corpus impossible to Tolkien because his age, and to us for the need of invent.)

To sum up, we can not complicate us and limit to the above.

I assume The Children of Húrin as canonical and I left aside the work on the Narn I hin Hurin. And adding some material (Dragon helm and Saeros) to the chapter in Translations.

I have both books printed with a single “binding” with plastic and rings. The front page with the title reads

Traducciones del élfico J.R.R: Tolkien one

La caída de Gondolin J.R.R. Tolkien the other


The next page contains a note of the origins of this material. It reads translated.

These texts were constructed from myths of Eressëa and Númenor preserved in several sources and translated to modern language by JRRT.
Were compiled, edited and published firsr by his son CRT.
Reconstructed and edited second from the published texts by Gondowë.

I think that the history of Eriol/Aelfwine can be still possible (although I omit it) and can be compatible with "The Red book" of the hobbits

The next are the titles of the “real tales” in fëanorian characters first and then:

1 A Ainulindale, etc
B Valaquenta, etc
C Eldanyare Quenta Silmarillion o Histora de los Eldar o Historia de los Silmarils
D Atalante o Akallabeth, etc
E De los Anillos de Poder (Of the rings of Power)
F De la Tercera Edad (Of the Third Age)

2 Narn e- Dant Gondolin o Historia de la Caida de Gondolin (HIstory of the Fall of Gondolin)

On the development of the texts I’ll write other day, I must go working, I'm too very busy.

Greetings.

[gondowe]

In the matter of the Narn e-Dant Gondolin I made a division in chapters after the publication of The Children of Húrin, translated more or less:

The birth of Tuor
Tuor slave and outlaw
The call of Ulmo
The arriving at Vinyamar
The speech of Tuor and Ulmo
Voronwë
The quest of Gondolin
The hidden pass
The arriving at Gondolin
Of Tuor in Gondolin and the birth of the New Star
The Treason of Maeglin
The Battle of Gondolin
The Flight of the exiles

In the first part, the “later Tuor”, I don’t remember to have made any change, apart for the chapters.

In the second part, that I remember have made are:

In the matter of the names, I considered the names on this web of the city The seven names Ondolindë, Gondobar, Gondolindrinbar, Gwarestrin, Garthoren, Loth, Gondolin.
The names of the Chieftains of the houses remains the same except Talagand (again I accepted from this web), I think is the only ones we have and can not invent others.
In the polemic mention of Legolas, I changed this one for Galdor that was among the exiles too. I assume this one and Glorfindel are the same as in TLOTR
I changed the word Balrogs for Balrog, omitted the metal in the serpents, goblins for orcs, etc, updating the rest to the well known.

I introduced many sentences and matters from other sources, like mention to Argon Elenwë and Idril in the ice, Gond dolen, the speech of Thorondor and Turgon from TWOH, (speech I resumed in the chapter of “Translations), the history of Enherdil and the Elessar, Anguirel as the sword of Maeglin, Glamdring as the sword of Turgon, the same fate of Maeglin and his father...

Of course there were the changes in geography as the house of Tuor in the north, Cirith Thoronath also in the north, Orfalch Echor, etc.

For the construction of the text, I think I made a good work, but it’s my proud opinion. It can be made in many different forms. But the few texts I’ve read from this web are very similar, not the same, but very similar.

Greetings.

[Findegil]

As might be suspected, I have a view questions:
- Since I never saw any sign of your chapterheadings, I assume you invented them. For what reason did you do that?

- Legolas: Did I understand you right, that you removed Legolas as the guid during the night by Galdor the Lord of the people of the Tree?

- Balrogs: Did you realy change every meention of Balrogs to a singular Balrog? Would that mean that Tuor, Ecthelion, and Rog each killed a Balrog? Even so before hand you did not mention more than one Balrog?

- May be I am just a bit slow this morning but Gond dolen did not ring any bell with me. Could you give a bit more information.

- The same is true for the speech of Thorondor and Turgon from WH. Can you give a more specific source information.

- How did you handel the escape from the battle, when you placed Tuor's house in the north of the city? Or did you change the direction of the attack to come from the south?

- How did you handel the fugetives that seperated from Tuor to take the old way of escape?

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

Originally Posted by Findegil

As might be suspected, I have a view questions:
- Since I never saw any sign of your chapterheadings, I assume you invented them. For what reason did you do that?

Yes I invented them. After the publication of The Children of Hurin I wanted that his cousin had a similar story, and that invention (I think) is not against the story and don’t changes anything wrote by Tolkien. It’s only a heading.

Originally Posted by Findegil

- Legolas: Did I understand you right, that you removed Legolas as the guid during the night by Galdor the Lord of the people of the Tree?

Yes, if we assume as truth (in this case I think it can be possible) the matter of names and elves, there can not be there anyone called Legolas here unless he was the same as in the LOTR, and we know is not the case. I think Galdor is a good solution, he also was there (and of the same house), and is not told to have died anywhere.
And

Originally Posted by Findegil

- How did you handel the fugetives that seperated from Tuor to take the old way of escape?

To omit is not to lie, simply there were no separation because they knew that the Orfalch Echor (The way of escape) had been closed many years ago. (And it’s told in my version).

Originally Posted by Findegil

- Balrogs: Did you realy change every meention of Balrogs to a singular Balrog? Would that mean that Tuor, Ecthelion, and Rog each killed a Balrog? Even so before hand you did not mention more than one Balrog?

All we know that in later mythology there can not be hundreds of Balrogs, but I don’t think really that Tolkien considered in an hypothetically revision to exit from the beginning only seven Balrogs, (Balrogs dead when the other battles, the battle of Gondolin, and the last battle, apart for that one of Moria).
With this, yes, each one killed a balrog, (we are in the First age, everyone are more powerful, elves and Tuor!!!). I don’t remember how many balrogs are mentioned in my version but I think don’t matters, for they are few, and coherent and I think credible.

Originally Posted by Findegil

- May be I am just a bit slow this morning but Gond dolen did not ring any bell with me. Could you give a bit more information.

As for Gond Dolen“Hidden Rock” for the origin of the word Gondolin ( I introduced when they are telling Tuor things about the city and its history, as the history of the Ice), I remember is mentioned in the Appendix of elements of Quenya and sindarin at the end of The Silmarillion published. As the most part of the text was made many years ago I don’t remember if it’s mentioned in other book.

Originally Posted by Findegil

- The same is true for the speech of Thorondor and Turgon from WH. Can you give a more specific source information.

In WH when Húrin is searching the way to Gondolin, the eagles watched him, and Thorondor went to Turgon, these words I introduced in FoG, and in the chapter “Of the wanderings of Húrin”, I introduced in the other book, (as I will tell later), I resumed the speech for no repetition.

Originally Posted by Findegil

- How did you handel the escape from the battle, when you placed Tuor's house in the north of the city? Or did you change the direction of the attack to come from the south?

Since the Cirith Thoronath is now in the North, I think the house of Tuor there must be in the north. I think we can put it wherever we want, because there’s no more information about it. The characteristics of the stone of Amon Gwared, as it’s said by Tuor, makes very difficult the excavation, (even for the Noldor) and I think that as Tolkien put house south/Cristhorn south in the old version, we can put the other now, making the tunnel as short as we can.
The attack of course is from the north, but in the time of the flight (as I think is said) there were enemies around all Amon Gwared, North, West, South and East, and the escape from the north could have been the less expected by Morgoth.

Greetings

[Findegil]

Thanks for the farther explaination, I got a better picture now in most cases. But a few questions remian:

- The speech of Thorondor: Where did you include what? The report of Húrin searching entrance into the city does of course fall into Tuors time there. But did you actually insert the report of Thorondor in direct spech?

- Again the battel: When Tuor withdraws to the King's Square the place is already beset with foes from North West and East. Fittingly Tuor withdraws to the south. In the original version his house and the entrace of the secret tunnel was in that direction. Does that mean in your version Tuor made an implicit turn and to the north?

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

Originally Posted by Findegil

- The speech of Thorondor: Where did you include what? The report of Húrin searching entrance into the city does of course fall into Tuors time there. But did you actually insert the report of Thorondor in direct spech?

According with the annals and Tale of years, I think the best or one of the best places is just before the paragraph that starts:
“Now came days when Tuor had dwelt among the Gondolindrim many years. ….” .

Originally Posted by Findegil

- Again the battel: When Tuor withdraws to the King's Square the place is already beset with foes from North West and East. Fittingly Tuor withdraws to the south. In the original version his house and the entrace of the secret tunnel was in that direction. Does that mean in your version Tuor made an implicit turn and to the north?

As for the question of the battle I was revising the section you say and I can be in a mistake but I think it can be changed simply south for north without lose sense. For example, there’s a passage telling that the enemy attacked from left and rear, -east and north- , and I changed that it was from west and south. And things like these. I was reading it and it seems me coherent.
The names of the streets can be the same because there’s no description previously.
By the way, I omitted Gar Ainion, simply Place of the Ainur, Fountains of South there are Fountains of North, etc.

Greetings

[Findegil]

Ah, that means Morgoth army comes over the hills in the north, but the first gate to fall is the south gate of the city? Yes, that is a reasonable possibility to change thinks.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Yes it can be possible, but not necessarily. At the time of Tuor withdraws to King's place and subsequently to the tunnel, Morgoth armies had razed Gondolin (even from the north that means the north had few enemies), and could come from wherever you want.
But the development of the battle (although very brilliant) is not so deep told, and I think we must not complicate more about this question.

Greetings

[beforetime]

I want to see the "Complete Silmarillion" . Can you tell me where is it? spanish translation

[gondowe]

On the book “Traducciones del élfico”, (“Translations from the elvish”), the basis text I decided to use, was that of The Silmarillion published. I had and I have the original edition, there’s no translation into Spanish of the last edition revised (I think from 2001).

I used this basis because I think we must have respect with the work made by CT, a work of cohesion and connection between the whole mythology. I only change the story in the matter of the Ruin of Doriath. The part he invented and perhaps (as we can read in “The War of the Jewels”) he was not proud of it.

But this basis, first, I compared with the texts in MR and TWotJ, the annals and the Quenta Silmarillion proper, adding material discarded ( if was not discarded from JRR or contradicts other thing), and overall, the dialogues that CT omitted.

I left aside material like “Athrabeth”, “Quendi and Eldar” “The statute of Finwe and Miriel”(the discussion of the Valar), etc, because, or there are incomplete or ,like the Athrabeth, there are not (I think) “Quenta Silmarillion” texts. But I mention these works with an editorial sentence in the corpus of the text when proceed, and so we can read it, if we want.

Then, I was introducing material (paragraphs, sentences, etc) from the other texts before the 50’s or after the 60’s, when it was convenient and didn’t confront with the story.

I don't remember how many (for there were many) sentences, paragraphs,etc and where I introduced them, but in other posts I will explain these I'm going remembering, and if you answer things like with the FoG, it will be easier.

In a post above I wrote the general title.
The structure of Eldanyarë or Quenta Silmarillion proper is:

The same titles as in the published work except:

Ch24 Of the Wanderings of Húrin
Ch25 Of the Nauglamir and the Ruin of Doriath
Ch27 Of the Voyage of Earendil and the rising of the New Star
Ch28 Of the Great battle and the War of Wrath
Ending with The Second Prophecy of Mandos.

(Edit)
I had forgotten
Ch6 Of Finwe and Miriel
ch11 Of the Rape of the Silmarils and the Thieve's Quarrel

I am waiting to buy the new edition of The Silmarillion in Amazon, when “Arda Reconstructed” will be released.
But for the moment, can anybody tell me differences between the 77 edition and this one?, what changes or additions had made CT?


Thanks and greetings.

[Findegil]

Gondowe, in my view you shouldn't with waht ever you plan with your work for the Sil2001. The changes introduced in the text are very minor. I remember only some thing about the numbering of the rulers of Numenor that had any bearing to the content of the story. From my point of view a normal read will hardly mark any differenc.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[gondowe]

I’ve been ( and I am) very busy these days, so sorry.

Ok Findegil, I understand that you said to me that it isn’t worthwhile to buy or read it (Sil2001 I mean), isn’t it?

It was very difficult to join the texts of AAm and Quenta proper with the text of Sil77 and I made it alone, so it’s possible (I suppose) that I left something away. But it was enlarged considerabily.

In the Valaquenta I inserted the descriptions of the houses of the Valar from the Lost Tales, that I had in mind from many years ago.

Here and there I introduced sentences from other sources like mention to the First, Second, Third elves to awake and their people and I’d take the decision (I don’t know what do you think in the forum about it) of relating these elves with Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe because of other sentence I introduced ( I think, but not secure) from the Lammas that “Ingwe was the eldest for he was the first to awake”. Perhaps it’ll be polemic but I feel it’s right.

I had pity for not know where could I insert the passage from the history of Finwe and Miriel ( at the end of The statute) when he dies, but I didn’t find a coherent place for it.
What do you think about?

Greetings

[Findegil]

Ok Findegil, I understand that you said to me that it isn’t worthwhile to buy or read it (Sil2001 I mean), isn’t it?

Yes, that it what I mean.

The 'relation' between Ingwe and Imin, you took is identity? Possible in that special case. But between Tata and Finwe is doubtful and Enel equvial to Elwe seems impossible since he had two brothers.

About Finwe and Miriel I have to look that up in our version, before commenting.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Originally Posted by Findegil

The 'relation' between Ingwe and Imin, you took is identity? Possible in that special case. But between Tata and Finwe is doubtful and Enel equvial to Elwe seems impossible since he had two brothers.

As a legend not only as written by Tolkien but even among the Elves, the Cuivienyarna can be interpreted in several ways.

As is said later (I think in Ruin of Doriath) Thingol himself tells that his life begun in Cuivienen. Of course it could be possible he was begotten in Cuivienen, but it mades me odd that the ambassadors were not "one of the most ancient people, means the Unbegotten".

If we can take as truth the sentence about Ingwe above, we can think the same about Finwe, and so I explain what I made (translated more of less):

I mentioned the name of the legend then naming that three elves awoke first and the Three Houses were derived from these elves, so they were named simply MInyar, Tatyar and Nelyar. Later when the division of the elves I relation Ingwe with the Minyar Finwe with the Tatyar, etc, with the new names deriving from this firrst division (I mean Vanyar, etc) and in the next paragraph comes the sentence above about Ingwe.
Of course it's no mention of the wives for the matter of Miriel.

And as Eru- begotten people and as the Fëanturi and Nienna for example, Elwe and Olwe (and Elmo) can be brothers in the mind of Iluvatar.

So it stays only as an interpretation of the reader.

Only in the revised and enlarged index I established identity between the characters.

I hope had explained correctly.

Greetings.

[Findegil]

The graetest problem with Enel = Elwe Thingol is Melian. What hapend to Enelyë? How could Elwe ever marry Melian, when he had already a spouse?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Gondonwe wrote:

As is said later (I think in Ruin of Doriath) Thingol himself tells that his life begun in Cuivienen.

Unless I'm mistaken, this statement was written by Christopher Tolkien.

Findegil wrote:

The graetest problem with Enel = Elwe Thingol is Melian. What hapend to Enelyë? How could Elwe ever marry Melian, when he had already a spouse?

Indeed, and pretty much any speculative solution involving the death of Enelye or anything along those lines is precluded by 'Finwe and Miriel'.

[gondowe]

I insist that it's a legend even for the elves themselves ( of Aman and Sindar) not a kwoledge as "the wise men say".
I only take the characters, and didn't mention the spouses for Miriel and of course (I had forgotten) for Melian.
I feel that if Ingwe was "the eldest for he awoke first" then Finwe and Elwe must be the second and third, and Unbegotten.
And yes, possibly the sentence from Ruin of Doriath was written by CT. Possibly he though he awoke in Cuivienen. But this sentence I retained in the reconstructed text of that chapter.

Greetings

[gondowe]

Continuing on with my text. For example I decided to keep the picture of Melkor hurting the Trees instead of only Ungoliant. The image of the coming of the two, is glorious for me.

The rest was principally add text from AAm AG and QP here and there with some alussions, like in the chapter Of the coming of men in west, introducing Andreth and mentioning the speech conserved in the Athrabeth. And in the index telling the relation between Andreth and Aegnor.

From the Lay of the CoH I took aspect of the description of Nargothrond.

Of course in the chapter Of Beren and Luthien introduced material, principally dialogues and things like Dagmor his sword, etc from the lays.

The title Narn Beren ion-Barahir would be desirable if we had a more extensive source but comparing the other Narns in too short lamentably. So I decided to keep the title as “Silmarillion Tradition”. The same thing I did with the chapters Of Turin Turambar and Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin, for the two independent “books” TCoH and TFoG.

Only in Of Turin, there was a restructuration of the text according with TCoH, adding the matter of Saeros and Dragon helm, discarded by CT in the new book.
As I said above, I consider TCoH as the definitive Narn for it was made by CT after publication of HoME, and “purgued”. And names as Saeros, Teiglin, Dorlas. etc were maintained for this reason.

In the Chapter Of Tuor only changed where is said “much of it was told in TFoG” to “much is said in the Narn e-dant Gondolin”

The rest of the final chapters were more difficult, and I’ll try to explain later.

Greetings

[gondowe]

By the way, a question. How exactly is going to be your project? will it be only a book? Two?
The structure?
What are you going to do with texts like Laws and Customs, Atrabeth, Quendi and Eldar, and the other texts from Unfinished Tales?

As I am going to re-structured now the order of my texts and revise the Narn Hurin, reduce WH for the QS, etc. You could give me your ideas, if I can make use of them.

Thank you and greetings

[Findegil]

Gondowe, look at this thread: * An unofficial New Silmarillion Outline *
In its full lenght it will answere most of your questions.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Ok Findegil, thank you and sorry, I had read some threads a year ago, when i had discovered this web, and possibly I would had red it but I didn't remember it. Now I have little time to read every thread, and I only do that with the new.
Can you tell me if there's one where it is said what texts or chapters you have finished, apart I think for FoG, and the Ainulindale?

Thank you and greetings.

[Findegil]

Sorry Gondowe my answere was not really that specific. If you want the actual structer of TRANSLATION FROM THE ELVISH / volume 1: THE ELDER DAYS you will find in the thread given above in posting #80 (Page2).

The proposals for the other volumes ar not that clear. But they should sume up to 3 according losely to the 3 volumes Bilbo gave Frodo. I proposed 1 volume dealing with Númenor and Middle-Earth in the second and third Age and 1 volume with Essay.
All the Texts you mentioned would be included in one or the other.

Did I get you right that you would like to produce a Silmarillion + editions of the 'Great Tales'? That project looks even more ambious then ours since it will include much reducting from the 'Great Tales' with the additional issue to aviod to much repeating (but translation might help in this).

The reduction of Húrin in Brethil will be a hard task. The intra Brethilien politics are heavily interwoven with Húrins actions. I am not that sure that you must do that at all. Okay otherwise the tale is a bit out of balance with the rest of Húrins Wanderings. But not so much with what Tolkien might envisaged for his Silmarillion realised only for The Darkening of Valinor with all its sub-chaptern.

About your new question were we are rigth now, please look at this thread** General Comments on the Project & Sign Up Thread **. In posting #100 I gave an overview that still not so much outdated. I only would add that we have settle the discussion about Andróg as a member of Húrins band and have finished the first part of the Narn concerning the changes introduce by CoH.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Did I get you right that you would like to produce a Silmarillion + editions of the 'Great Tales'? That project looks even more ambious then ours since it will include much reducting from the 'Great Tales' with the additional issue to aviod to much repeating (but translation might help in this).

The reduction of Húrin in Brethil will be a hard task. The intra Brethilien politics are heavily interwoven with Húrins actions. I am not that sure that you must do that at all. Okay otherwise the tale is a bit out of balance with the rest of Húrins Wanderings. But not so much with what Tolkien might envisaged for his Silmarillion realised only for The Darkening of Valinor with all its sub-chaptern.


Respectfully
Findegil

Well my initial idea was to retain the chapters of Túrin and Tour as it were in The Published Sil + WoH edited the end with the end of TT. And CoH in a book and FoG in other. It was so till you animate me to retake the narn Húrin so i am working in my job (when i can, of course, a Hospital) as I said above. I only take my previous WoH and past as an appendix at the end of CoH (with the central chapters enlarged with the lay).
In the chapter of "Silmarillion" i take the other title proposed by Tolkien "Of the fate of Húrin and Morwen" and as my law "not to complicate", I resume the whole passage of Hurin in Brethil with the annal 501 from WotJ little edited, and I don't "invent" nothing.

The enlarged chapter of Beren is "overenlarged", and added in the book with the other two tales, and the original chapter of Sil reenters in the Book.

I think it was the project of Tolkien to left a Silmarillion and the three (or four) tales apart.
And I know there are people that want to read the whole history, whithout Great Tales, people, of course, not like us, but for example my cousin can read the whole silmarillion and then if it likes much, could read the Tales enlarged, or vice versa. She red FoG and likes too much.

Greetings

[Findegil]

I think it was the project of Tolkien to left a Silmarillion and the three (or four) tales apart.

Yes, I agree to this and I did not critisies your approach. I rather mentioned the issues that brought as to another way. Your finished results have some edvantages that our approach has lost:
- the single entitys will be better balanced.
- for the entitys a fign history of tradition is thinkable
- you follow probably Tolkiens original plan (at least much better then we do)
- the entitys are smaller (which makes publishers happy as I learned recently from Brandon Lee's Blog about the split of 'A Memory of Light'. But this last point is irrelevant since publication is prohibited by copyright anyway.)

I have to appolgies for the question anyway. Had I re-read or remembered your earlier postings, the answer was clear more or less allready.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Hi Findegil, I've finished in rework the Narn Húrin, and I was trying to send you my two pdf books by the e-mail in your web but I have problems of delivering message. How can I send you them?
Meanwhile I retried.

Another question, the titles in the narn Beren from The coming to Doriath till The ques of the silmaril, are invented? I don't remember a source.

Greetings

[Findegil]

For message try ralf.volles@gmx.de. But probably it will not help me much, since I don't speak any spanish. But if you don't mind I would collcect it and give it to other members if they shoe interest.

The chapterheadings in the Lay of Leithian are all original. We did not invent any haeding in our chapterstructure beside the head line of part one of TftE 'The Elderdays' and the skipt chapter 'Of Túrin the Hapless 2'.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Originally Posted by Findegil

The chapterheadings in the Lay of Leithian are all original.

Ok, but can you tell me where they are?, because I was looking for them and I don't find anything in the texts.

Greetings

[Findegil]

We took them out of the listing in the content page of the book if they will be found nowhere else. Sorry I have the book not at hand. I will look it up at the evening. I am not quiet sure if they are in the text itself.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Ok I had seen them. That's the problem of not see the index of the books. For althougth I have the english version, there are many years I don't use it, and the spanish version have the index at the end of the book.

I suposse they were invention of CRT.
Thank you.

Greetings

[gondowe]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Gondonwe wrote:

As is said later (I think in Ruin of Doriath) Thingol himself tells that his life begun in Cuivienen.

Unless I'm mistaken, this statement was written by Christopher Tolkien.

Originally Posted by gondowe

And yes, possibly the sentence from Ruin of Doriath was written by CT. Possibly he though he awoke in Cuivienen. But this sentence I retained in the reconstructed text of that chapter.

Well, I remembered ( and I verified) that in the Lost Tales in the Tale of the Nauglafring Tinwelint said Úrin that his life beginned in Palisor unnumbered years before born the first Man. So from this sentence I Think CT made his in the Sill77. So Tolkien from the beginning thought that Thingol was an Unbegotten.

Greetings

[Findegil]

It is not clear that 'a live beginning in Cuivienen' is equal to being one of the unbegotten. I would assume that at least in the later form of the mythologie at least the second generation of Elfs was born in Cuivienen. And Thingol having two brethern was surley of that second generation.

But in the earlier form of the Legend things were other wise. For a time Feanor was planed to be the first Elfenchild ever. That means that we must ask if we should take that statment of Thingol up into our version.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

As Findegil points out, even if one does equate a life beginning in Palisor/Cuivienen with being one of the unbegotten, still a lot changed in Tolkien's ideas about the Elves between that statement from LT and the later Silmarillion material.

Thingol being one of the unbegotten is, as far as I'm concerned, out of the question. He has not only two siblings but also other unspecified 'kinsmen' such as Eol. One could perhaps posit a Melkor-Manwe type 'brethren in the thought of Iluvatar' relationship among Elwe, Olwe, and Elmo (though there is no support whatsoever for such a notion) - but the fact that Eol is described as being a relative of Thingol (when he is definitely not a descendant of Olwe or Elmo) surely implies that Thingol had parents.

Beyond this, a further obstacle to identifying Elwe with Enel in particular is Enelye. Obviously, Elwe was not wed when he met Melian; but Enel had a spouse in Enelye from the beginning. One is even precluded from some fan-fictional explanation that Enelye died - for this runs afoul of 'Finwe and Miriel'.

Thinking about it now, it actually seems to me rather certain that Thingol's life did begin at Cuivienen, since he was obviously alive already when the three ambassadors were chosen to come to Valinor. But it seems equally certain that he was not one of the original 144.

[gondowe]

Evidently I don´t pretend to convince anybody of my opinions about this questions, but in order to resume my vision of the matter and finish for my part this discussion, I would like to enumerate the points of what I think:

As Tolkien left the mythology unfinished, we must try to investigate among the material he left to us. But of course we (I) must be erroneous.

First of all, the Cuivienyarna is stated to be a legend even among the Eldar, not a kwoledge as "the wise men say". Few or no tales are stated as legends among the Eldar. A legend is half “truth” (subcreation), half invention. So the names could be (if you can say fan-fictionally) a sort of epesse and the tale and wives a “poetic” invention.

Ingwe is stated , of course in a 30’s text like the Lammas, that was the first to awake. I think there’s no later text contradicting.
But he also had a sister (Indis or her mother). So we can say that it cannot be possible, unless they could be brethren in the mind of Iluvatar, I like to think this second.

The same for Elwe/Thingol as is stated in the post above and the same for his brothers.

I said before: “As is said later (I think in Ruin of Doriath) Thingol himself tells that his life begun in Cuivienen. Of course it could be possible he was begotten in Cuivienen, but it mades me odd that the ambassadors were not "one of the most ancient people, means the Unbegotten"”.

If we can take as truth all above, we can think the same about Finwe.

In other way If Ingwe was the first and was one of the three ambassadors, so Finwe and Elwe must be the second and third.

For me the key is how to interpret the Cuivienyarna, if as “true subcreation” or mere poetic tale, “legend”.

Tolkien didn’t write nowhere if the three ambassadors were the three main chiefs of the clans (that for me means the first three ones) or not, but I think there are more data to think so than not to think it.

Greetings

[Findegil]

The problem I have with this line of thinking is the brotherhood in the mind of Iluvatar. How would these brethern know of each other? Eru might have told the Ainur about such things in there own ranks, but who could have told the Elves?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Ingwe is stated , of course in a 30’s text like the Lammas, that was the first to awake. I think there’s no later text contradicting.
But he also had a sister (Indis or her mother). So we can say that it cannot be possible, unless they could be brethren in the mind of Iluvatar, I like to think this second.

I may be mistaken, but I believe that Indis did not exist until well after the Lammas. So one cannot simply take the statement that Ingwe was the first to awake and the statement that he had a sister concomitantly.

[gondowe]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I may be mistaken, but I believe that Indis did not exist until well after the Lammas. So one cannot simply take the statement that Ingwe was the first to awake and the statement that he had a sister concomitantly.

Yes, yes, Indis is later than the Lammas, what I wanted to mean is that we have both informations.

Greetings