where did bombadil came from

[quam]

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my personal opinion is that he could be one of the first edain,wandering around,finding/making a ring that connects him with nature and becomes immortal.

Quis,Quae,Quid
Quem,Quam,Quid
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[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: where did bombadil came from

The Edain awoke with the first rising of the Sun, but Tom claims to have been there before the Sun and Moon. He's much older than the Followers.

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[Sharkû]

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Re: where did bombadil came from

I don´t even think that Bombadil was &quot;born of woman&quot;, so to say. He is an enigma, but he probably is the embodiment of nature itself, just like Goldberry is the daughter of the river (what _could_ make her a Maia which Bombadil accordin to JRRT is not). And nature, or Éa, for which Tom could stand, is certainly the oldest life on Arda.

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[Balin999]

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Re: where did bombadil came from

hmm maybe this is just a stupid idea... but could it be that tom was an incarnation of Eru in middle earth???

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[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: where did bombadil came from

I've heard that idea before, Balin. But I also think I heard that Tolkien denied such a thing in his Letters (which I've never read ... I need to find where I can buy those).

mailto:barrow-wight@kitgraphics.comThe Barrow-Wight</a>
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[Taimar]

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Re: where did bombadil came from

Since Tom was the first living creature, I had always assumed that he came into being at the same time as Arda itself. In other words, he was probably created during the Ainulindale by one of the Valar, possibly Yavanna.

</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://pub12.ezboard.com/utaimar.showPublicProfile>Taimar</A> at: 6/28/00 8:38:10 am

[lindil]

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Re: where did bombadil came from / goldberry

I had always thought t.b. was a rather eccentric maia.but maybe as taimar suggests ha came into being w/ arda.
My question has been -of what nature is goldberry?

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[quam]

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goldberry

maybe she's the same as the big rock-throwers in the hobbit when gandalf,bilbo and the dwarves are in the misty mountains,or the caradhras in FOTR

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[Oliphaunt]

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Re: goldberry

I don't think that Tom is Eru, because I think Eru would have a more broad personality: silly like Bombadil, wise like Gandalf, solemn like Elrond, funny like Sam, etc. The argument that Tom Bombadil is Aule is a very good one, but I got the impression that all the Valar stayed in Arda, exept for maybe Ulmo who dwelt in the depths of the Sea. My personal opinian that he is a lesser Maia, but the argument that he is an embodyment of the nature, an Earth-god is also very strong.

<marquee>'Were there any oliphaunts?' asked Sam, forgetting his fear in his eagerness for news of strange places. 'No, no oliphaunts. What are Oliphaunts' said Gollum.</marquee></p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: goldberry

It is often suggested that Tom Bombadil was a Maiar, but was he really? Perhaps Tom is something along the lines of Ungoliant who was said to have 'descended from the darkness that surrounded Arda'. Perhaps Tom, too, crept into the world from outside of it... maybe even from the Void. For the Music of the Ainur (and the discord of Melkor) echoed out into the Void, and both Tom and Ungoliant could have been products of the Music rather than the 'offspring of the thought' of Eru.



The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[galpsi]

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Re: goldberry

If I understand this at all rightly, Bombadil was called Iarwain by the Teleri. And I think that I understand that Iarwain means &quot;old-holy&quot; from the stems iaur and aina. This hardly clinches anything about his identity, mind you, but I really like Kittle's last suggestion and I don't think that it offers any contradiction to that. Isn't he also called Ben-adar, fatherless?

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: goldberry

bombadil is the spirit of the land balanced by goldberry as the spirit of the water. together they are harmony , comfort and peace to those whom they see as not harmful to their realm.

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[Fingolfin]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: goldberry

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)(letter 144)<hr></blockquote>

Tom was an enigma and as such didn't come from anywhere nor was he of a race per-se

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Re: where did bombadil came from

Who gives a damn...next to Goldenberry, Tom Bombadil is the most ridiculous and useless character in LOTR.

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[GandaIf The White]

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Re: where did bombadil came from

Thats the stupidest thing Ive heard in a while Hamatime.. :P But I remember Tom saying that there were some trees older than him, didnt he? I agree with Taimar... but I think he was a Maiar that served under Yavanna (or something like that).

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."</p>

[Elenhin]

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Re: where did bombadil came from

Gandalf:
Actually you're remembering words of Treebeard, not Bombadil. Just as a side note, this proves that Bombadil has to be older than Treebeard.

I think that Bombadil was an enigmatic embodiment of Arda itself, quite much like Ungoliant was an embodiment of the Void. Remember, Bombadil remembers &quot;the starry sky when it was free of fear, before the Dark Lord came from Outside&quot; (I'm quoting from memory of a translation, the words aren't exactly these). I believe that this refers to Melkor's first entrance to Arda, but it can be interpreted in other ways as well (or perhaps Tom was telling a big fat lie to the Hobbits <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ).

Either that, or he's the Witch King.
Or Mad Bilbo.

--
Elenhin

"My god, it's full of stars!"</p>

[Fingolfin]

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Re: where did bombadil came from

I agree <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

Tom is an enigma, a personification of the earth yet at the same time not of Ea.



And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)(Letter 144)
----
In historical fact I put him in because I had already 'invented' him independently (he first appeared in the Oxford Magazine) and wanted an adventure on the way.(letter 153)

...but Glorfindel, I think, is right. Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself.(The council of elrond)
--------

I agree <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

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Re: where did bombadil came from

O How interesting to have wandered such a short time but still be able to make a reference to earlier in my travels...
I found this article very interesting, perhaps others will as well...

http://pub76.ezboard.com/fdunedainsc...icID=131.topicpub76.ezboard.com/fduneda...=131.topic</a>

<hr> Join Me In My Travels... http://pub39.ezboard.com/btheezboardnomadsthe ezboard nomads</a></p>

[Beregond]

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Re: where did bombadil came from

That's a pretty good article! However I still think Tom was just a Maiar. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

<font size="-2">'They have come!' he said. 'Take courage and look! There are fell things below.'</p>

[Fingolfin]

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Re: where did bombadil came from

If Tom was truely an enigma as tolkien affirms then how could he have a spcifc race? Then he would no longer be an enigma.

</p>

[Elenhin]

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Re: where did bombadil came from

Originally I thought that I'd address the some of the flaws of the essay, which Nomad linked to, here myself, but as I noticed that my post was going to be filled with quotes from a certain another essay, I decided only to post a link to the essay.

http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/T.../Bombadil.htmlSteuard Jensen's &quot;What is Tom Bombadil?&quot;</a>


--
Elenhin

"My god, it's full of stars!"</p>

[Odysseus819]

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Re: where did bombadil came from

Elenhin, where is your sig from? It's driving me nuts.

<font size = "-2"> [i] Listen! the mighty Being is awake / And doth with his eternal motion make / A sound like thunder--everlastingly.</p>

[Elenhin]

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Re: where did bombadil came from

Well, the first time I heard it, it drove me nuts too.

In fact, the whole &quot;2001: A Space Odyssey&quot; movie drove me nuts back then. Well, some years after seeing the movie I decided to read the book, thinking &quot;it can't have been as bad as I remember&quot;, and it indeed wasn't. In fact, the book was great and so I grew to appreciate (read: understand) the movie as well.

And by the way, my nick is a Quenya translation of a certain... thing (I can't really explain it) which appears in the end of the story <img src=smile.gif ALT="">


--
Elenhin

"My god, it's full of stars!"</p>

[Yavanna Kementari]

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bombadil as eru -balin99

balin, this discussion is been done a 'long' time ago and i
was defending exact the same idea as you did!
maybe you can find the board back..
but i might have reacted too fast
i only got to your reaction on the subject
must go back
but any argument to proove youre statement is always welcome!!
nienna

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[Odysseus819]

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Re: bombadil as eru -balin99

Elenhin --

This &quot;thing&quot; is at the end of 2001? Or LotR? I'm going to try to figure it out ! (But I don't know Quenya.)

P.s. 2001! Of course ! I thought that's what it was.

<font size = "-2"> [i] Listen! the mighty Being is awake / And doth with his eternal motion make / A sound like thunder--everlastingly.</p>

[Odysseus819]

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Re: bombadil as eru -balin99

Elenhin = Star-child -- is that that space-embryo thingy at the end of the movie?

<font size = "-2"> [i] Listen! the mighty Being is awake / And doth with his eternal motion make / A sound like thunder--everlastingly.</p>

[Elenhin]

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Re: bombadil as eru -balin99

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Elenhin = Star-child -- is that that space-embryo thingy at the end of the movie?<hr></blockquote>
Yes <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

(This is getting off-topic; does anyone have more to say on the origins of Bombadil?)

--
Elenhin

"My god, it's full of stars!"</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000346>Elenhin</A> at: 7/28/01 5:06:15 am

[Odysseus819]

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Re: bombadil as eru -balin99

One reason I think that Tom cd NOT be Eru is that Tom clearly has limits (&quot;Tom is no master of black riders&quot while Eru does not. Of course, Eru cd self-impose his own limits in arda -- remember the old George Carlin joke &quot;If God is omnipotent, cd he make a rock so big that he himself cd not lift it?&quot; -- but . . .

In any case, I personally wd not like to think that the Supreme Being is so . . . unserious (shall we say) as Tom is.

<font size = "-2"> [i] Listen! the mighty Being is awake / And doth with his eternal motion make / A sound like thunder--everlastingly.</p>

This probably one of the most difficult questions. I think that he was there before anything else was. He is a race of its own with no people akin.(Still i cannot judge goldberry). But since his power is restricted to a certain area he must be "part" of it.
Maybe one can compare him to Beorn?

[KayQy]

Perhaps Tom, too, crept into the world from outside of it... maybe even from the Void.

Tom the Squatter?!?!?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Joy]

Check out the post on Tom Bombadil at the Encyclopedia of Arda. It has every possible explination availiable and has quotes from Tolkien that refutes some ideas.

[Sillabub]

I heard he was a maiar

[Sillabub]

SHAME YOU, HAMATIME!!!!Tom's such an interesting character! So what if everyone else says he's 'useless'?!

[Daisy Brambleburr]

I imagine that Tom was there when the world was created and he will continue to live on through all the ages, seperated from everyone else, just like Goldberry. Kind of a nice thought. I think once Tolkien said that he was the spirit of the vanishing Oxfordshire countryside.

[Sharkû]

This was one of the earliest Tom topics (just look at the date of the original post), though not the most comprehensive discussion. At any rate, it doesn't offer anything new as it is.