Do we live in Middle-earth?

[Ahanarion]

Do we live in Middle-earth? Is it in an alternate universe? Is it imaginary? I beleive it to be real after all history became legend, legend became myth and things that should not have been forgotten were.

[Gorothlammothiel]

Oooohh......glad someone asked this. I did a talk (persuasive Speech) in English the other day about the existance of paralell universes and inparticular ME.......

.......PU exist. It's scientifically proven! (will explain if an explaination is needed)..we can travel between these PU's through "stargates" (not quite like the show) or in your dreams.....

....ME DOES EXIST AND WE ALL EXIST IN IT....

(just in case any of you wanted to know, after my speech i was branded a crazed X-files lunatic [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img])

[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: Gorothlammothiel ]

[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: Gorothlammothiel ]

[dragongirlG]

Do we live in Middle Earth?...

Perhaps. I think that Tolkien based Middle Earth off the world that was before technology, electricity, colonization, etc...the Earth that had once been. So maybe we do live in Middle Earth, it's just that we don't know it. After all, like Ahnarion said, "History became legend, legend became myth, and things that should not have been forgotten were." So it's quite possible!

[Ancalime]

I know I've heard that Tolkien based Middle-Earth on a prehistoric Europe. But does it really matter? As we read the books, it is real in our minds so its supposed location (place or time) in 'reality' isn't really important.

Slightly off topic, I would greatly enjoy an explanation about the scientific proof that parallel universes exist. It sounds like an interesting topic. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] (I promise I won't think you're a crazed X-Files lunatic! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

[Voronwe]

Since when has the theory of Parrallel Universes been scientifically proven?

By the way, Tolkien did state that Middle Earth was our world, but at an imaginary time in the past.

[Thinhyandoiel]

By the way, Tolkien did state that Middle Earth was our world, but at an imaginary time in the past.

'

This is true. And it even says so in the Silmarillion (which I lent out, otherwise I'd find the quote for you). It said somewhere that the lands had changed, rivers moved, mountains flattened and rose since the passing of these events (or something to that effect). Can someone help me with that quote? Or is it from LOTR? Am I getting my books mixed up!? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Not good...

[QuickSlash]

I would also like an explanation on parallel universes. ^_^ (Although I doubt any of you want my opinion on whether or not we're in ME ~_^ )

[Niere-Teleliniel]

I agree with Thinhyandoiel & Voronwe . I think ME did exist on our earth, but the geography just really changed. Gimme some time to finish the Silm. and I'll have a more solid answer [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Arwen Imladris]

I personally do not think that ME really exists, at least not in the what Tolkien wrote about. Tolkien, I'm pretty sure made it up out of his won head. He is very convincing, but he wrote it all, long after Middle earth existed. If he knew about it from some parallel universe, wouldn't he have had said something about that?

I think that Parallel universes could exist. I would like to hear your explaination too
Gorothlammothiel [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Jessica Jade]

Ah, delicious ambiguity. One of the things i love most about Tolkien! He makes you think...DID this world exist? The truth is...you'll never really know four sure...maybe it did once, before the lands were broken and changed, before dinosaurs, before even prehistory as we know it. We'd never know...of course, the reasonable explanation is, of course it wasn't physically real, because Tolkien created it all. But nonethe less, it perpetually makes you wonder, WHAT IF? It'll always be a wonderful prospect to entertain. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Narya]

If we want to find out, if ME really and 'pysically' existed where our world is today, we should think about how much we can surley get know about the past of our world by hystorical writing and archiology and so on. (I think we can be quite sure about what has happen in the last 2000-3000 years, but I´m not a hystorically expert, so anyone might disagree...)

I don´t really believe the stories in ME are taking place at the earth, but the Red Book could be real and the basic for the story; so I think it could exist and Tolkien could have made a story out of it.
Things and powers like magic and persons like the Valar and the other thing that not 'fit' in our world today, are discribed for example in Greek myths.
But I don´t think Tolkien created MiddleEarth because he had hystorically proofs that this world existed in the past of our earth.

If you wonder if the stories are just in our minds or in some other way real, I would agree that they are... everything we can imagine can be real too.

[Niphredil Baggins]

Here
is a page based on the question: what if it all really happened?

[pippin_took0]

I think there's GOT to be a ME somewhere... heaven for example... Or at least that's where I'm going when I die.

[Orodhromeus]

Of course ME isn't real! And the events depicted are no more real than those in every mythology (greek, egyptian, etc). Tolkien wanted it to be as realistic as possible, thus the creation of the Red Book, which was supposedly translated by the Professor. That would make Tolkien a simple mediator between the forgotten history he would have 'discovered' and today a technique already used in litterature during the Renaissance (Voltaire, I think). Many authors do anything to present their fiction as a depiction of real events, notably Michael Crichton. Speaking of him, you can read his novel 'Timeline' to get a theory on the existance of parallel universes.

[The Half-Hobbit]

Discover magazine has had several articles on the likelihood of parallel universes. Hop over to their website and I'm sure oyu could find one...or on second thought, I'll go get one...brb!

[ April 12, 2002: Message edited by: The Half-Hobbit ]

[The Half-Hobbit]

found one!

Linde is best known for his evangelical advocacy of a concept called inflation, which holds that in its very early infancy the universe underwent a brief but stupendous growth spurt before settling down to its current more leisurely rate of expansion. In part because of his contributions, inflation has become a widely accepted model in contemporary cosmology. But no one takes the concept as far as Linde does. He contends that the same basic mechanism spawned not only the observable universe--the galaxy-emblazoned realm we ponder through our telescopes--but also countless other universes being branched off from our own, universes that we’ll never see. He even speculates that our cosmos might have been deliberately created by beings in another one.
--From an article called (appropriately) The Universal Wizard. From the March '92 issue of Discover

[ April 12, 2002: Message edited by: The Half-Hobbit ]

New to this board, I was drawn here after Niphredil Baggins posted a link to my site http://alt-tolkien.com saying "here is a page based on the question: what if it all really happened?"

Well, thanks first to Niphredil, and yes I would say that is a good summary in a few words of what we are about at Middle-earth Reunion, "the alternative tolkien society".

Certainly it is my personal "quest" to explore that question, "What if JRRT just was telling the truth when he said he was translating, rather than 'making it all up'?"

That's it for now -- as I say I am new here so maybe I'll just "lurk" a bit and find my feet, but I wanted to say thanks and add my tuppence to the conversation!

[Starbreeze]

Welcome Martin! Enjoy being dead! But becareful, the Barrow Wight frowns upon people who advertise their sites in their posts, he prefers it if you put all advertisements in your signiture. Just a tip to aid your survival here, Stay log and post lots!

[Gorothlammothiel]

Humm......here is part of my speech from school.....will find once more the scientific evidence and post it when it's found [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Here you go for now.......

(sorry it's so long)

If you can believe that there are different layers to the Earth, could you also believe there are different layers to the universe? Could another universe co-exist with our own? Do we depend on them or them on us? The answer to these questions is yes.

If you imagine our universe reflected in a mirror, the reflection would show another universe alongside our own. This can be used to explain how a parallel universe can exist. Another universe could exist with ours but this one would have more dimensions than our own.

Our own universe has three spatial dimensions; up/down, left/right and back/forth. These dimensions are ones you use in everyday life just from moving around. A fourth dimension also exists, time, for the future/past theory.
Consider this dimension theory to be a jigsaw puzzle where every dimension has an if and this if adds a piece to the jigsaw. What if I’d chosen this option? What would have happened then?

The concept of parallel universes opens up the possibility that in another dimension, Shakespeare never wrote Romeo and Juliet, Gareth beat Will to win Pop Idol and that you in fact were never born. These pieces together create a dimension of the life you lead, so therefore my dimensions will not be the same as yours because we haven’t made the same choices in our lives.

You may well argue that all of these theories contradict science. Well in fact they actually complement it. The idea of a parallel universe began when scientist’s quest for knowledge grew so, they seeked to find a solution to everything-the “ultimate theory”.

Using gravity as a starting point, scientists began to question why it was possible to overcome a force supposedly so strong that it keeps everything to the ground. But when this was approached in a different way, scientists realised just how weak a force gravity is. For instance, if you try to travel beyond our atmosphere using new technologies you can escape Earth’s gravitational pull. How is this possible?

One possibility was this: What if the universe parallel to ours is actually the universe with gravity and it releases gravity into space as we do pollution into our atmosphere. The result being that our gravitational pull is not ours at all but is the reminent of that from another universe, a leak if you will.
We depend on other dimensions just as we rely on each other.

An argument that could be used against our theory is the suggestion that if all these dimensions surround us, how come we don’t slip in and out of them. To this we would answer, “how do you know that you don’t?” For an example, De ja vous could be a possible merging of two dimensions, perhaps the future/past one. You have the feeling you have done something or something has happened before, what’s to say that it hasn’t happened before?

Another form of a near inevitable gateway could be death. For those who believe that death is just the beginning of something else, what would you think if we were to propose that heaven and hell were dimensions themselves? Some people who have had near death experiences claim to have seen a “bright white light” or a “light at the end of the tunnel”. These lights could be the gateways to the other dimensions and the people who saw them did in fact see the portal but were brought back to this dimension with the aid of modern day medicine.

There are other areas in this world that could be gates to other dimensions. The Bermuda triangle is sometimes considered to be one of these gateways as people, boats and aircraft have all disappeared without trace. Did a magnetic field from within the Earth disrupt navigational equipment sending them off course or did they slip into an alternate reality?

Black holes are also considered to be star gates to other dimensions and it is thought that UFO’s could travel through these star gates from other universes.

As a human race we think we know so much about the world, which surrounds us, but what do we know of the next? The greed for knowledge grows that many have forgotten the basic principle of creating an idea, researching and proving it. They are stuck in their own way of thinking and cannot see the big picture. The universe, this universe, the next and so on.

We have 2D, 3D and 4D dimensions. Ones you can see on paper, ones you can touch and ones you can feel. In 3D a shape will have sides, edges, vertices etc. Can you really believe that our universal dimension is just one block? Why couldn’t there be more out there?

The biggest problem with this theory is ignorance. People in general have preconceived ideas and closed minds. They will not allow themselves to believe in something without solid evidence. Christopher Columbus himself must have had to deal with many narrow-minded people.

There are a great many things in this world, or the next, and just because we don’t know about them or can’t prove them, it doesn’t make them false. When people didn’t know the earth was round it didn’t mean that it wasn’t. All we ask is that you will allow your minds to be that little bit more open to consider that Parallel universes could exist. After all, Lack of evidence is not proof of absence!
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Enedhil]

have you ever seen a really old map of the world? the shapes of the continents et al?

It's really facinating, and possible that ME could have exsited i think.
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ April 12, 2002: Message edited by: Enedhil ]

[Orodhromeus]

Gorothlammothiel, what was being discussed was science, not spiritualism or science-fiction.
Theoretical models support the existence of universes with more than 4 dimensions, or where time runs backwards (cause follows the effect - naked singularity). But ours has 4, including one that could be only one-way (ie time). Gravity was explained before a "Unified Theory" was even sought for, and gravity doesn't involve parallel universes at all. The Bermuda Triangle never existed, in my opinion; no more ships & planes dissapeared there than in any area of the Earth.
Parallel universes were created just because of that "what if". What if Nazis had taken over the UK in 1942? Would the World War Two have ever ended? How different the world would be in 2002? To answer such questions, one imagines the course of events that would follow if that takeover would have happened. Nothing important happens in Normandie in 1944. USA can't successfully strike back. Japan keeps Oceania, China & Indochina hers; Germany rules over Europe. USSR is attacked on 2 fronts and eventually succumbs. Boy, I'm going far, I like speculating dystopia! My point is that parallel universes were nothing more that a good way to tell stories, a scenario twist. But as it often happens, science-fiction inspired science, and science considered looking if that parallel universe idea could be true. And the search still goes on. Whatever popular opinion might think, nothing has been proved yet, but many serious people think parallel universes might exist.

Maybe you'll call me close-minded, but I don't think I am. I believe in parallel universes, though maybe not in the interaction between two. But too much nonesense is being said in the topic of spiritualism, so much that I've lost faith into it.

[Little_My*]

Do any of you know where the world Middle-earth comes from? It's a larga bit of the old nordic Mytholoy . Midgård is the swedish name for Middle-earth. Anyway, I would find it hard to belive that a world that Tolkien came up and named after the world in the nordic Mytholoy with would be real...
If you want to read more about the real Middle-earth/Midgård...read this.. http://jotunheim-dk.com/Nordic_Mytho...y_Midgaard.htm

[Gorothlammothiel]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree Orodhromeus. Although I wouldn't call you closed-minded, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I respect that although I will have to correct a few points made.....

The idea of Gravity not being related to PU is wrong, and scientifically proven to be.

These PU's are membranes which ripple (you can relate to "M-Theory" here)and it is indeed science. "String theory" is another scientific foundation for the existance of other such dimensions.

These two theories combined do in fact prove the exisitance of PU and scientists in Britain and the US believe so.

If you can get hold of a copy,I recommend the book "The Expanded Universe" as it clearly covers all of the points relating to science and spritualism, often using quantum mechanics as a way to explain and without insulting anyone's intelligence, it can be quite heavy reading.

One last point, science indeed is the key to so much in this world and if people feel the need to escape reality and this science, then a fictional world is the way to escape it. Let others believe and there is proof there whether people are willing to accept it or not. Let your mind escape that which society has forced upon you, and don't let them bring you down...

[VanimaEdhel]

By the way, Tolkien did state that Middle Earth was our world, but at an imaginary time in the past.

I actually always believed that the narrator who was saying "...our time..." was another person, maybe a hobbit or a human, retelling the old stories, not Tolkien, himself.

And who knows: maybe there is a Middle Earth in a Parallel Universe. And maybe a visitor from there (an Elf or Human or Hobbit or Dwarf or Orc (quite possible these days, from some of the people I've heard about) or Balrog...) somehow stumbled into this universe and told Tolkien for some reason, and...and...I'm rambling now, aren't I?

Well, maybe Tolkien took artistic lisence, since he is such an amazing writer, and changed some of the story and kept the basic idea the same and wove a story of such meaning and feeling that we are writing posts about it today.

Oh: and I plan that when this soul takes its final, immortal form, that it will be an Elf of Middle Earth (according to my friend, who reads palms, my lines say that I am not human, but that I am a nymph, or an elf, or something...I'm going to repay her reading by doing a Tarot Reading for her when I get my cards as a present...as they always must be).

[Child of the 7th Age]

Sadly, I do not believe that Middle-earth is a physical reality, either in this world or another parallel universe. And yet.... I also believe that the most important things in the universe are not those that have physical reality. On some level, Tolkien was speaking incredible truths. There is no other way of explaining why his words have touched so many people profoundly in so many different places on our Earth. You know, a well-know guest once came to Tolkien's house in Oxford. This is how the author described the meeting: "I became aware that he was looking fixedly at me. Suddenly he said, 'Of course, you don't suppose, do you, that you wrote all that book yourself?'....I think I said: 'No, I don't suppose so any longer.' An alarming conclusion for an old philologist to draw concerning his private amusement. But not one that should puff any one up who considers the imperfections of "chosen instruments", and indeed what sometimes seems their lamentable unfitness for the purpose." (Letter 328 written in 1971)

This, to me, is a startling admission. And, in my heart, I do believe there is truth spoken here. So physical reality or no, and whether you call him Eru or G-d or Hashem, I feel there was a wind of grace that came to Tolkien so he could share these haunting and compelling tales with us. sharon,the 7th age hobbit

[Ahanarion]

Thank you all for your thoughts on the subject they are greatly appreciated.

[Aralaithiel]

While I wait for FOTR to come out on DVD, I have been watching the DVD of the National Geographic special they did on LOTR. They quote Tolkien as saying that he didn't invent ME, but merely rediscovered it.

If it truly does exist, then I'm leaving Earth and going to ME. In the words of Cartman from South Park:"Screw you guys, I'm going home!" (to ME, that is! LOL!) [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Demloth of Dol Amroth]

Well, what i'm about to say is gonna really make you wonder. i have four friends who, by cunning, secrecy, and political means, plan to take over the world. seriously-oone is going to control a computer corporation, another is going to run for president, and if they replace manual counters or update counting machines by then-get the pic? how this relates to the discussion is that in this scenario of this scenario, middle-earth, or something similar to it, comes about due to actions of the one who becomes president. no, he is not the antichrist-we are all, in fact, christians-no, i haven't had any illegal or otherwise substances recently, or ever, and no, this isn't coming from an asylum. another friend of the computer-corporation is also planning to run for president, on the platform that he is not a politician. all of the aformentioned friends are also major tolkien fans as well. but as yet, it's just a story we made up, with as much chance as happening as elves marching into washington, though they did say something similar when the Wright brothers decided to test their airplane. like the moderator said, keep an open mind. the least likely thing usually will happen.

[Anarya SilverBranch]

This is what I love about this web site, you can say the most out of this world things and no one will think your wierd.

Anyway, I think that there are multiple different worlds like ME and fantasy authors are just their other worldly chroniclers of their histories. Seriously, like there might really be a Narnia like with C.S Lewis, or what ever that land is called that Tamara Pierce made up. How they get the info I don't know but it's cool to think about. I personally don't think that we have the only 'World' but thats just my opinion.

[VanimaEdhel]

Aralaithiel: I believe we have discussed this in our private conversations, but: you know I am coming with you! And bringing about 7 people (then there would be nine of us in total [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ). Haha...well: we can all have our opinions on here. I agree: this is why this forum rocks. In many other places people hear like only one or two aspects of my personal religious beliefs, and they run away. No one even commented on my beliefs up there *points up to her other response*. I want to thank you for not threatening to burn me at the stake or some equally as horrid end [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] !

[Anarya SilverBranch]

And bringing about 7 people (then there would be nine of us in total

I'm one of those seven right [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Gimli Son Of Gloin]

If ME is a PU(which I believe, but wish I was in)how would Tolkien have known? He didn't travel through our world and end up in ME. The only logical explanation is he was a Gandalf and had the Palantir that he recovered from Orthanc. Being the greastest wizard he managed to come to our ugly, dirty, evil, world and write down his epic, using the Palantir to communicate with ME. So he really isn't dead, he just went back to live in the greatest place in existance, Middle Earth... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

(actually I believe there is live elsewhere, and one of the other worlds has a great resembalence to ME, and its all coincidence. So ME isn't a PU, but rather a nother planet out there somewhere.) [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Bruce MacCulloch]

OK, I've seen several people in this thread make reference to Professor Tolkien's description of Arda as our own world in the past. Well, here are the quotes:

(Note: He very specifically states that his mythology is not set on another planet, unlike what someone previously posted. These quotes are also not by a hobbit, elf or what-have-you - but are taken from his personal correspondence and letters regarding his stories mythology. Anyway, here's what the Professor has to say about it himself.)

From a letter to the Houghton Mifflin Co., 30 June 1955:

'Middle-earth', by the way, is not a name of a never-never land without relation to the world we live in (like the Mercury of Eddison). It is just a use of Middle English middel-erde (or erthe), altered from Old English Middangeard: the name for the inhabited lands of Men 'between the seas'. And though I have not attempted to relate the shape of the mountains and land-masses to what geologists may say or surmise about the nearer past, imaginatively this 'history' is supposed to take place in a period of the actual Old World of this planet.

From his notes on W.H. Auden's review of The Return of the King, 1956:

I am historically minded. Middle-earth is not an imaginary world. ... The theatre of my tale is this earth, the one in which we now live, but the historical period is imaginary. ... Mine is not an 'imaginary' world, but an imaginary historical moment on 'Middle-earth' – which is our habitation.

From a letter to Rhona Beare, 14 October 1958:

I have, I suppose, constructed an imaginary time, but kept my feet on my own mother-earth for [i]place[/]. I prefer that to the contemporary mode of seeking remote globes in 'space'. However curious, they are alien, and not lovable with the love of blood-kin.

From a letter to Charlotte and Denis Plimmer, 8 February 1967:

The action of the story takes place in the North-west of 'Middle-earth', equivalent in latitude to the coastlands of Europe and the north shores of the Mediterranean. But this is not a purely 'Nordic' area in any sense. If Hobbiton and Rivendell are taken (as intended) to be at about the latitude of Oxford, then Minas Tirith, 600 miles south, is at about the latitude of Florence. The Mouths of Anduin and the ancient city of Pelargir are at about the latitude of ancient Troy.

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ]

[MYyyPreciousSS]

I think Middle Earth does exist, in our minds. If you believe in ME then to you, yes it is real. Tolkien always spoke as if ME was indeed real, because it came from his head and he created what ME is, to him, it is real. Our minds are what tell us if things are real, so as long as you believe in ME, it is real. As far as physically, as in a paralell universes, i'm not sure. A theroy that I have, (even though its not one that I deeply believe in, just a thought) is that such fantasy places do, or have exsisted and those who are lucky enough can open there minds and find such places again.

On a blank leaf I scrawled:'In a hole in a ground there lived a hobbit.' I did not and do not know why. -J.R.R. Tolkien

"History became legend, Legend became myth. And some things that should not have been forgotten where lost." Maybe certain people are ment to think things up again, to keep the story alive. Just maybe, ME exsisted once and Tolkien is like our storyteller, the one who knows the truth and tells it. Like for example people that can talk to the dead and tell loved ones they're thoughts.(Wither you believe it or not its just a example.)But I do truly believe, if you believe, then it is real.

In Concerning Hobbits, the Prolouge to LOTR it says that Middle Earth still exists and that Hobbits have learned to avoid the Big Folk, and since men were banned from the Shire we wouldn't see them any way, the earth has changed, i belive that LOTR could have taken place in a period between the ice age and the extention of dinosaurs.

I believe Middle Earth is and was a physical place and that maybe, just maybe we live in it. People have unatural pointed ears, and some people succumb to evilness as Isildur did to the ring, there are Dwarfs, all same but taller than a hobbit is to be described.

Maybe, elves were absorbed into the Human race or vice versus. Evil exsits and always has. Middle Earth may just be a state of mind, but to me I much rather live in the state o mind than in today's world. Maybe live in the Shire, a very peaceful place, or in Lorien, a wonderfully beautiful wood or in Minas Thirth a thriving city.

LOTR is our history, and will forever exist in our hearts and minds, so it is physical


-Lerium Redlark

Middle Earth does exist to me. Just not externally at this point. And what's wrong with being a crazed Xfiler?

[Peregrin Boffin]

LOTR could have taken place in a period between the ice age and the extention of dinosaurs.

I found this from a FAQ concerning the gap of time between the fall of Barad-dûr and now.

I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years: that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh.
Letters, 283 (#211)

[ April 18, 2002: Message edited by: Peregrin Boffin ]

[Gorothlammothiel]

I never said there was Racorien, indeed I am glad of the title, but what was disappointing was that I was talking about PU's and Middle-Earth and they thought I was talking about the X-files.....

[Orodhromeus]

i belive that LOTR could have taken place in a period between the ice age and the extention of dinosaurs.

Sorry to be perfectionist, but what we call the (recent) Ice Age took place about 65 million years after the extinction of the Dinosaurs. It ended some 10-12,000 years ago.

[GreatWarg]

I beleive it to be real after all history became legend, legend became myth and things that should not have been forgotten were.

I very much believe this too. But I wasn't thinking of Paralell Universes, PM me your speech Gorothlammothiel! I'd love to read it!) I was thinking that it happened in the past. After all, Tolkien said in the Foreword of LotR that hobbits are not seen by people now even though they do exist because they are

Even in ancient days they were, as a rule, shy of the 'big Folk', as they called us, and now they avoid us with dismay and are becoming hard to find

This proves that even if there were hobbits, we would not notice them. This could well mean that there are still Elves around, or people with Elven blood in them. Not to mention people with Numenorean blood and so on. Tolkien may have, perhaps, mysteriously found remnants of Numenor, Gondor, Rohan, and other dwellings, though this does not seem likely.

And one could think, if Europe is believed to be where ME once was, and away Westward was Valinor, then North America itself could possibly be Valinor! It opens up a most interesting field of speculation. There may be people with high Elven blood in their veins! And what of Numinor? Numinor could have been crumpled by time and the Sea. And what about the other continents? Well, Unfinished Tales did make several points on lands beyond Mordor, thus Asia! And many people believe England to be where the Shire is. If that is the case, then land has indeed changed. But since continents shift, then perhaps England was once attached someplace else, thus finding Bree, Rivendell, Lothlorien, Moria, and all else! Mirkwood and the Lonely Mountain could be somewhere in Russia!

Okay, over-imginative mind here. But PM me if you want some of my ideas about this!