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#1 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: The Shire
Posts: 10
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Unusual question?
Hi there! I have a question, it's pretty unusual. Sorry if this is the wrong forum.
![]() I'd like an opinion from someone other than my brother. I've been asked to write a story/fanfic for my friend with Sam and Frodo in it and she wants the two hobbits to find a rabbit and rescue it, etc. However, another part of the plot is where Sam contemplates killing the rabbit for food. My question is, would book-Sam do this or even actually kill a rabbit (that he's gone to the trouble of rescuing)? I say no, my brother says yes. What do you think? |
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#2 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,506
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Quote:
So yes, hobbits eat rabbits.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. Last edited by Morthoron; 07-25-2014 at 12:56 PM. |
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#3 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: The Shire
Posts: 10
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I know, I was just wondering if he'd willingly kill a rabbit, as they'd be in the Shire and it wouldn't be absolutely necessary as there would be plenty of food already - and taking into account he and Frodo rescued it.
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#4 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,506
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Yes, they would eat rabbit in the Shire on a regular basis. Rabbit stew is very good. Try it sometime.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#5 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 36
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No, not if they are in the Shire and have plenty of food. They rescue it you say? Nope Frodo would make him let it go even if Sam wanted to kill it, but i dont think Sam would do something like that. Now if Sam was out hunting for rabbits to make a stew out of them, oh ya he would kill as many as he thought would..... well make a good stew.
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Fingolfin.....He passed over Dor-nu-fauglith like wind amid dust, and all that beheld his onslaught fled in amaze, thinking Orome himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. |
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#6 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,316
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Tolkien contradicted himself: on the one hand Tolkien declares "Hobbits have no blood-sports," but on the other hand Sam early on says his cousin Hal goes up to the Northfarthing every year "for the hunting."
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#7 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 81
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Thats not necessarily a contradiction. It could also simply mean that Hobbits hunt for food, but not for entertainment (sport). Hobbits are depicted as a simple but good-hearted people: killing just for fun would be atypical, but they are clearly meat-eaters and have no problem with killing animals in order to eat or otherwise utilize them (for example to produce leather).
But ... we have to keep in mind that the Shire is in a lot of ways an idealized version of the english countryside, and killing for fun (for example fox hunting) definitely was and still is a part of english country-life - so it is at least a possibility that the Hobbits maybe hunted for fun after all. Last edited by denethorthefirst; 07-26-2014 at 12:03 PM. |
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#8 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: The Shire
Posts: 10
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@Morthoron - I don't think I'll be trying it very soon, as I'm a vegetarian and own four pet rabbits myself. I've heard it's good, though.
So, I'll just go with the plot where Sam doesn't kill it. Sam seems to like nature and animals most out of the fellowship, in my opinion - Bill the pony, for example, and he notices the lack of birds singing several times in the books. In my opinion hobbits don't seem the hunting-and-killing-at-will type, at least not for sport. Maybe the Northfarthing simply had better or more animals for food? Anyway, thank you for your help! |
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#9 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annűn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
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I think Sam would eat it. It would not make him less of a nice Hobbit for doing so.
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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#10 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 80
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From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold. |
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#11 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: The Shire
Posts: 10
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Maybe, I don't know what she (my friend, that is) wants. I'll ask her. A talking rabbit is a nice idea, actually. In that case I guess it would be a bit cruel if Sam killed it, as it obviously would ask him not to. I have no idea what Sam's reaction to a talking rabbit would be, though.
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#12 | |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Settling down in Bree for the winter.
Posts: 208
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![]() I heard one rumor that anything in Middle Earth that eats meat also talks. Not sure if the converse holds, that grass eaters don't talk. Is it a vorpal bunny? |
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#13 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,036
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Quote:
Actually, the Witch-king's steed is obviously a meat-eater, but it doesn't say anything.
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#14 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 80
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Quote:
Your more run-of-the-mill talking rabbits, or vorpal talking rabbits, I have no idea. The answer is probably in HOME, somewhere or another though.
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From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold. |
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#15 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lonely Isle
Posts: 706
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As others have pointed out, Brego, the answer to your question is 'Yes', there being the example of Sam cooking the rabbits caught by Gollum for himself and Frodo.
There's also the issue of what the Shire was based on. Tolkien did so, as he said, on a village in the English Midlands c.1897, like the one in which he spent part of his childhood. The inhabitants of such a village, like the hobbits based on them, were not vegetarian. However, Tolkien did qualify this a little in one of his letters, as William Cloud Hicklin said, saying that hobbits did not practise blood sports, and had a greater empathy with wild creatures than the villagers he based them on. It seems reasonable to say that Sam, like any other hobbit, would have no problems with killing wild animals for food, or raising tame ones for the same purpose. But he would not kill any for sport. As denethorthefirst said, a hobbit would see no contradiction in this attitude. It's interesting about Tolkien's attitude towards blood sports; because of what has happened since his death regarding hunting in Great Britain. The hunting of wild mammals with a dog was, with some qualifications, banned in Scotland in 2002, and then in England and Wales in 2004, the legislation in the latter part being enforced from 2005. Perhaps, considering his stated attitude in his Letters, he might have been sympathetic to such a ban. ![]() |
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#16 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: The Shire
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That is interesting; on that note, are the letters something you can buy, or if not, where would you find them? I've heard a lot about them and they sound really interesting.
What does vorpal mean? Sorry, I've never heard that word before. But the rabbit will just be a general rabbit that can talk. I can post a link to the story when it's done, if you like, so you can see the whole situation. It wont take long as I can type quick. ![]() |
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#17 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,036
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#18 | |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#19 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 80
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Quote:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KillerRabbit
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From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold. |
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#20 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 265
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A short saying oft contains much wisdom. ~Sophocles |
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#21 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lonely Isle
Posts: 706
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#22 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 265
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A short saying oft contains much wisdom. ~Sophocles |
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#23 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
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#24 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lonely Isle
Posts: 706
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![]() You and others may be interested in knowing that Tolkien explicitly made a major character vegetarian: Beren. According to Chapter 19 of The Silmarillion, for 4 years after his other 11 companions (including his father) had been killed by Sauron, he survived in Dorthonion but he became the friend of birds and beasts, and they aided him, and did not betray him, and from that time forth he ate no flesh nor slew any living thing that was not in the service of Morgoth. (My emphasis) (The Silmarillion, (London: George Allen and Unwin, 1979), p. 196. It appears that Beren's decision was due to military necessity, rather than any ethical or moral objections to eating the flesh of animals. Perhaps Sauron had been using, in his campaign against Beren and his companions, the meat eating habits of the latter against them, in order to gain intelligence. An argument by him might have gone something like this: These Elves and Men go on a lot about me and others being 'evil', and they being 'good'. If that's the case, why do they kill and eat your relatives? (Points at one animal) You know what happened to your uncle last week, reduced to a heap of picked-over bones. (Points to another animal) And what about your cousin? If this is how they behave, why should any of you help them at all? If you help me, I promise that they will not bother you or your families ever again. ![]() What do people think? |
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#25 | ||
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 80
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From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold. |
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#26 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 87
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Ha, that´s funny. I´ve never read the sentence this way. But regarding those animals in the service of Morgoth, are they off limits for him aswell? I like the notion of Beren scouting the woods to find this one evil eyed hawk, or grim badger (which are obviously under Morgoth´s command) he can digest without feeling the least bit guilty about it.
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#27 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
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Hawk actually supposedly tastes terrible (don't know about badger).
On the other hand, there are people in our world who eat wolf by choice, so that could be a good source of guilt free flesh. I imagine it tastes like dog (which a lot of people eat), but gamier). It's a long shot but since Beren has this no kill policy and the animals help him, I wonder if they also might provide him with no kill non vegetable material (vegetarian is not vegan). The birds bringing him any eggs the laid that did not hatch (or even bringing ALL of their eggs and letting Beren candle them, so he could eat the non fertile ones fresh) Or even (though this is a little silly) Mother deer coming to him and standing still after they had suckled their fawns, that Beren might milk them of their excess for his own sustenance. |
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#28 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 80
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I try to let not mere syntax stand in the way of a quip good. Or a one bad, for that matter.
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From without the World, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and unforetold. |
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#29 | |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: The wide blue yonder beyond this dimension
Posts: 19
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Quote:
MAN: I thought you did not eat the flesh or slay any living thing that was not in the service of Morgoth? BEREN: I do not. MAN: Then why did you kill that chicken? BEREN: Oh...er...well, you see, erm...Morgoth...corrupted...this...chicken. Yes, that's it. And we can't have evil chickens in times like these. MAN: ...right.
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"It is everywhere. It is everything. Its scales glisten in the bark of trees. Its roar is heard in the wind. And its forked tongue strikes like... *lightning strikes* whoa! Like lightning!"-Merlin, Excalibur(1981) |
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#30 | |
shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
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Quote:
To answer your question though: yes, he would and yes he could.
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"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan Last edited by skip spence; 08-14-2014 at 07:10 AM. Reason: added a line |
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#31 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: The Shire
Posts: 10
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@Smug the Fabulous - That's hilarious!
![]() I must read the Silmarillion again. @Skip spence - That's a good idea, though I agree about the plot. I'm mainly concerned about staying true to the characters and what they'd do. If they did rescue it and it needed...'ongoing treatment', where would they keep it? At Bag End? Or outside somewhere? So many questions, I'm sorry. |
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