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King's Writer
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Beren and Lúthien - Changes needed
This is the first draft of an expaned version ot the Story of Beren and Lúthien BL. Our basis text is: The History of Middle-Earth; volume 3; The Lay of Beleriand; chapter IV: The Lay of Leithian recomenced (LayR). This text is not given in full in HoME, thus it is here silently reconstructed from the old The Lay of Leithian (Lay). Only the numbering of the lines of the poem is that of the old poem when parts of that are used. Where the LayR breaks of the basis text used is that of The History of Middle-Earth; volume 11; The War of the Jewels; chapter IV: The Later Ouenta Silmarillion. This text is not given in full in HoME, thus it is here silently reconstructed from the text in Sil77. In the course of this additions from other sources made by Christopher Tolkien are taken up but marked as such by “editorial markers”.
We have 4 groups of changes: BL-zz: General changes given and discussed in the list below. These changes are taken up here, but they are not indicated by "editorial markers" BL-RG-zz: These changes are semi general. They are normaly foced by a change in the nomuclature but could within the poem not dealt with by simple replacment. The changed nomuclature is listed but not numbered with the general changes below. BL-SL-zz: Changes done to make the storyline fit to the later sources. These editorial markers are also sometimes used when a change was not made that could or should be considered and discussed in view of the stroyline of a later text. BL-EX-zz For expansions taken from some other source to make the story more detailed. This also includes some changes made in the expansion, which I marked for easier reference. Within the poem this is highly difficult and only in two places used. It becomes more common in the later narrative. Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned) Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalised text, normaly only used for general changes <source example> = additions with source information example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason /example/ = outline expansion Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. General changes: It is dificult to make genral changes in a poem. Thus really genral changes are very limited. But I will also list here changes that are regulary necessary even if solved in each place individuly, but these will not be numbered as generall changes. But each individual change will be numbered with a normal editing mark (BL-RG-zz). At the end of each such “regular changs” is given the list of numbers of thes editing markers that a concerned with this particular issue: BL-01: Dairon to Daeron per Sil77 BL-02: Inglor to Finrod per LotR Finrod to Finrafin per LotR; this change needs individual solutions since Finrafin has one syllable more then Finrod. (BL-RG-01, -13, -15, -18) Thu and Gorthu to Sauron per LotR; this change is very difficult since Thu is often used in the rhyme. Tolkien replaced it in some cases by Gorthu but this is also not longer valid and its replacment Gorthaur does not work in the rhyming. Thus we have to find some individual solution for each line. (BL-RG-19, -20, -21, -22, -26, -27, -28, -29, -30, -31, -33, -34, -35, -36, -37, -39, -40, -41, -43, -45, -47) BL-03: Elfinesse to Elvenesse per Tolkien's general change of Elfin to Elven from earlier to later writings. BL-04: Gnome/Gnomes/Gnomish to Elf/Elves/Elvish or Noldo/Noldor/Noldorin. "Gnomes" was dropped by Tolkien in LR and later writings, often replaced by Noldor. It would be better artistically to retain the original variation Gnome/Gnomes and Noldo/Noldoli which can be best done by replacing Gnome/Gnomes by Elf/Elves except where a general reference to Elves would not fit, as in "the Gnomes were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not." Then use Noldor. Exiles would be the exact replacment in sense, but Elves does normaly fit much better in the meter and is much easier understand and is thus generally used in this text. But see BL-RG-03. BL-04: Glorund to Glaurung per Wanderings of Húrin. Tun to Tirion per Sil77 but this Tirion has 3 syllables while Tun has only one. Thus each line most be dealed with individually. Where the reference is clear I used Tun to Town. And when it is fitting Tun to Tuna can be used with the neccisity to remove only one other syllable not two. (BL-RG-02, -03, -06, -17) Gods to Valar, West, Greats per Tolkiens later general avoiding Gods for the Valar; but the change is critical since Valar does not often fit the meter. In some cases I did change Gods to God where the meaning allows a reference to Iluvatar instad of one to the Valar. In the case of Morgoth speaking of his pears as gods I thought it might fit his denying of Iluvatars authority to refer to his pears as gods. (BL-RG-04, -05, -09, -11.5, -16, -23, -24, -25, -38, -42, -44, -46, -48) Glingal to Laurelin per Sil77 but further changes are needed in the Line. (BL-RG-03, -07) Belthil to Silpion per Sil77 but further changes are needed in the Line. (BL-RG-03, -08) BL-05 Damrod to Amrod per Sil77 Diriel to Amras per Sil77 but here a additional syllable is needed for the meter. (BL-RG-10) Cranthir to Caranthir per Sil77 but here one syllable most beremoved in addition. (BL-RG-11) BL-06 Maidros and Maedhros to Maeðros per HoME X BL-07 Egnor to Aegnor per Sil77 Umboth-Muilin to Aelin-uial per QS77 and UT, but we must add a further syllable in. (BL-RG-14) BL-08 Celegorn to Celegorm per Sil77 BL-09 Taur-na-Fuin to Taur-nu-Fuin per Sil77 BL-10 Dor-na-Fauglith to Dor-nu-Fauglith per Sil77 BL-10 Lhandroval to Landroval per LotR BL-11 Crisaegrim to Crissaegrim per Sil77 BL-12 Gyrth-I-Guinar to Dor Firn-i-Guinar per Sil77 Quote:
BL-EX-02: This change was already made by Tolkien him self in the LQS2. It is based on the changed trading of the tales of the first age wich we did take up. Quote:
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BL-EX-04 to BL-EX-07: All these changes are done to get rid of the retrospectiv charachter of the pice added. Quote:
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BL-RG-03: In this couple of lines are a lot of names that we must change. To delet the complet couple seemed much easier to me. And I don’t think it breaks the narative. Quote:
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“{of} tower-crowned {Tun}[Tuna], that still” BL-RG-07: Once is a fill-word and I think we can skip it. BL-RG-08: To replace the and with “,” is not very nice, but the best I could find. Quote:
BL-RG-10: “Damrod and Diriel“ have on sylabble more than Amord and Amras thus I added “young“ since they are the youngest brethern. BL-RG-11: The „and most go to give us space for Caranthir. BL-RG-11.5: May be this is going to fare, but it was the easiest solution I did find. Quote:
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Friendship to me in every need they yet have shown, but much I fear (1830) that to Beren son of Barahir mercy or love they will not show if once thy dreadful quest they know.' True words he spake. For when the king to all his people told this thing, (1835) and spake of the oath to Barahir, and how that mortal shield and spear had saved them from Morgoth and from woe on Northern battlefields long ago, then many were kindled in their hearts (1840) once more to battle. But up there starts amid the throng, and loudly cries for hearing, one with flaming eyes, proud Celegorm with gleaming hair and shining sword. Then all men stare (1845) upon his stern unyielding face, and a great hush falls upon that place. Quote:
BL-RG-17: Here I changed the city to the hill (simply moving the ”a“ from the verb). Please do not hesitate to reject this, if you find it hard to understand where the reference now lead to. Quote:
BL-RG-18: I hope the sense will be understood without that “or“. BL-EX-09: I wanted to include the name Edrahil and the line is the best solution I could find. BL-SL-04: Orodreth is no longer Felagunds brother so I changed his status. BL-EX-10: This is clearly the most difficult of the changes I did. I wanted the answer of Fleagund to the brethern included, but it is not urgend enough to break the poem with this prose fragment. (In the case of the prose fragments introduced into the Lay of Childern of Húrin it is quiet diffrent since there we only took up fragments from the Lay, but here it is as far as it goes the basic text.) I am sure that my lines can be bettered very much in a group efford, the question is thus do take that liberty and reform a prose fragment into a poem? Quote:
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BL-RG-24: I think it is possible here to skip “had” to get space for “Valar”. But the sentence still reads strange. Quote:
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BL-RG-34: Here we can go without the “and”. BL-RG-35: Is this going without the “thus”? I think it is. BL-RG-36: It is long since Suaron was named, but from the fight it seemed clear to me to whom the reference is. Quote:
But some other interesiting question: since he left behind the “wolvish corpse” had Sauron given up for a moment his incarnation just to build himself a new body at once? If that’s true then why didn’t he do that before he gave Lúthien the “password”? [quote]The shadows fell from mountains grim. Then sprang about the darkened North (3130) the Sickle of the BL-RG-38 {Gods}[North], and forth each star there stared in stony night radiant, glistering cold and white. …[quote] BL-RG-34: A bit to much North in this lines but I could not find any better solution. Quote:
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BL-RG-40: “Herald” was the best replacment I could find that is shorter than “messanger”. BL-RG-41: I did not like “Thou Thu” from the start. Thus “Sauron” serves us well her. Quote:
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BL-RG-43: The “how” is much better since it corosponds to the other tidings, but that’s what I could do. BL-RG-44: I changed the meaning to get rid of “Gods”. It might be that this is going beyond the boundary. Quote:
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BL-EX-11: I know that footnotes are not popular in this project, but this one is worth I try. Quote:
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BL-RG-49: Well, Amras who is number seven, is already burned to death. Quote:
BL-EX-17: I followed Christopher Tolkiesn lead here. Quote:
BL-EX-19: Here we have a last stance of the poem, and I think this is the right place for it. Quote:
That’s it for the moment. Please feel free to disagree with me in any point that is not to your liking. Respectfully Findegil |
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#2 | |
King's Writer
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During a rereading of the poem I found one additional line that needs our attention:
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Findegil |
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#3 | |
King's Writer
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BL-EX-18 I found my reading a bit stocky. What about this:
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Findegil |
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#4 | |||||||||
Late Istar
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I must apologize (again) for being so slow with this. Here, finally, are some comments (up to BL-EX-10).
BL-SL-01: The absence from LQ of the Orc-leader’s intention to betray Sauron and take the ring seems very probably due to compression. If I recall correctly, that feature was already present in the original version of the Lay, and yet is absent from other earlier accounts. The matter of whether the Orcs took the whole hand of Barahir or just the ring is an interesting one. I could imagine that the fact that they took the whole hand is simply omitted from the Lay, not rejected. But even if there were a definite disagreement between the two texts, we would have no way of determining priority – in such a case, I think I’d go with the Lay. Actually, it strikes me that, as a general principle, we might want to give priority to the later version of the Lay over LQ, since by this point much of the work on LQ was merely copying QS. BL-EX-03: This needs a bit of thought. As much as I like the passage, I am really quite hesitant to include it, since Tolkien left it out of the revised version. I can think of a possible motivation for this removal – it is said in QS (as found in the ’77) that Beren “spoke of it [the journey] to no one after, lest the horror lest the horror return into his mind; and none know how he found a way, and so came by paths that no Man or Elf else ever dared to tread to the borders of Doriath”. I need to think about this further, but for the moment I must say I’m inclined not to re-introduce the passage. BL-EX-04:If we do include it, we might want to say “did he” rather than “he did”. The metrical “did” is not good, and Tolkien went to great lengths to excise it from the revision, which is perhaps another reason we shouldn’t include this bit. BL-EX-06: Quote:
BL-EX-07: I think this should be “recked not {now}[of] the burning road”. BL-RG-00.5: What about: Quote:
BL-RG-02: Removing “and there” leaves an ungrammatical sentence. But we could simply change the comma to a semi-colon: Quote:
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In the line: Quote:
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BL-RG-09: I think the extra syllable might be a problem here. A shorter replacement for “Lord of Gods” would be good, though I can’t think of one at the moment. BL-RG-09: I’m not entirely sure the extra syllable is needed, but I think it works. BL-RG-11.5: I’m unsure about this; it would be good to try to find an alternative. BL-RG-12: I think your line is excellent. But I think you meant “’twixt” with a “t” on the end. BL-RG-15: Quote:
BL-RG-17: I think this is fine. “Tuna” is, after all, really a later form of “Tun”, despite the fact that its significance was slightly changed. BL-SL-03: I agree that a better solution should be sought here, though I cannot provide one at the moment. BL-EX-09: This is a little clunky. I wonder whether it’s really necessary to introduce the name ‘Edrahil’ (though I agree that, all else being equal, it would be good to do). BL-SL-04: What about merely making it: Quote:
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#5 | ||||||||
King's Writer
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BL-SL-01: I think the hand was removed because of the development in the Lay that the Ork wanted to keep the Ring for himself. With the hand brought to Sauron he could not so easily lie that it was bar (normally you would see a mark of a ring at the finger, especially with a man living all times out side).
Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
BL-Ex-03: I can understand your point, but there is at least one passage that comes to mind that does contradict your theory. And that passage comes from the most highest priority source we have: "The Lord of the Rings"; volume 2: "The Two Towers"; book IV; chapter IX: "Shelob's Lair": Quote:
Either way I comment on BL-EX-04 to BL-EX-07 if we decide to use them in the end. BL-EX-04 & BL-EX-05: What about: Quote:
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BL-RG-02: Agreed. BL-RG-05: Agreed. BL-RG-06: Agreed. BL-RG-08: Agreed. BL-RG-09: What about: Quote:
BL-RG-11.5: With an syllable more: Quote:
BL-RG-12: Of course with a "t" at the end. Thanks for the flowers. BL-RG-15: Okay, then we will leave the "here" in 1827 out. BL-SL-03: Let's try: Quote:
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BL-EX-10: Your work is ever welcome. At last a word to the working speed. I do not bother at all how slow we are in the moment. When I look at the time it took to finish FoG we are still moving like in a rush reckoned from that point onward. Respectfully Findegil |
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#6 |
King's Writer
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Just to get this at the top: Are we still in progress?
Respectfully Findegil P.S.: Aiwendil, just to let you know, Maedhros and I are still active in the background. After finishing the reworking of all texts that we have to the point we did bring them as jet, I did make a draft for "The Ruin of Beleriand and the Fal of Fingolfin" and Maedhros made a draft for "The Flight of the Noldor". But we both agreed that we will not start with this chapters if ever we get Beren and Lúthien finished, but rather go to "Of Valinor and the Two Trees" with the group discussion and then proced through the chapters of Sil in due order. |
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#7 | |
Late Istar
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Quote:
So - sorry for the unpredictability of my contributions, but I'm still here and I will have more comments up soon. |
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#8 | ||||||
Late Istar
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I'm really sorry that I'm proceeding with this so slowly . . .
BL-EX-03: I agree that it must have been known that Beren fought with spiders in Nan Dungortheb. The real issue, I suppose, is only the ract that Tolkien did not include the passage in the revision. I must think on this a bit more, but for the moment, I'm still inclined not to use it. BL-RG-09: I don't think that "and Varda" can be used to replace "Lord of Gods", unfortunately - they have the same total number of syllables, but "and Varda" is only one stress, whereas "Lord of Gods" is two. "Lord of Arda" is useable but not ideal. BL-RG-11.5: Again, the problem is with the number of stresses - "not any might on Earth" has one too many. BL-SL-03: This one's looking difficult to me. I don't see a solution as yet. BL-EX-09: Well, I don't think the added "and" would help matters. But looking back at this, I think that your original suggestion is not bad. BL-RG-21: This leaves a couplet that doesn’t rhyme (“thou” and “do”). But we could fix it by changing to the second person plural/formal: Quote:
It would be good if we could find a rhyme for “Sauron” or “Gorthaur” to use in line 2162, but I cannot come up with a good one. So I suppose my choice would be to go with “you” and change “him”. BL-RG-22: One possibility that comes to mind is: Quote:
BL-RG-23: I think “Great” is fine here, as it can be read simply as an epithet. Isn’t there a general change Tavros > Tauron, though? I’ll check. BL-RG-24: I think that the “had” can be included without doing much damage to the metre. BL-RG-26: The extra “thus” actually damages the metre, I think. “Sauron’s packs him feared as Death” is fine. BL-RG-27: Same thing here; I would go with “Sauron’s wolves of late of dared”. BL-RG-28: Same here. All of these cases are illustrations of the fact that this is not really a metre based on syllables but rather on feet. Since “Sauron” is accented on the first syllable, it should really be scanned as the second syllable of the first foot, with the first syllable missing (alternatively one could view the whole line as trochaic rather than iambic and consider the last syllable to be missing). BL-RG-30: We could try a rhyme on “rescue” in the second line but this would still be awkward, since “rescue” is stressed on the first syllable. Another possibility is: Quote:
BL-RG-32: How about: Quote:
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BL-RG-34: I’m not sure we should leave out the “and”. It leaves a construction that is technically ungrammatical, though used often enough in written English. The “and” would not destroy the metre. BL-RG-35: This looks good. Quote:
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#9 | |||
King's Writer
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BL-EX-03: I am not adamant in using it. In my view it is a passage with further details worth the changes need to use it. But the case that Tolkien did not include it in the revision shades some doubts on it.
It would be good to have third voice in this, but if your doubts presists we can drop it. BL-RG-09: What is then with: "of Manwë Lord of {Gods}[Eä]. Who calls"? BL-RG-11.5: Alternativ: Quote:
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BL-RG-22: Very good! The question if the "s" in names is possible is beyond my knowldge of english orthography. But I would drop it simply to be on the save said. BL-RG-23: You are rightthe history of the name was Tavros > Tauros > Tauron. I will add that to the list of General changes. BL-RG-24: Okay, I will take the "had" back in. BL-RG-26, BL-RG-27 & BL-EX-03: Agreed. BL-RG-30: I like your suggestion. The use of pursue is a bit out of the maenstream meaning, but for me it works. BL-RG-32 & BL-RG-33: Agreed. BL-RG-34: Your feeling for the meter is much better then mine, so if you think the "and" can stand, I agree that it makes a beter gramatic for the sentence. The issue of Saurons death: I have to research this further. I remember dimly that this defeat was adress some were in a telling way, but as jet I cold not find it. In the moment my feeling is that Sauron was not killed and that therefore I would remove the cdead wolfish corpse. Respectfully Findegil |
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#10 |
Late Istar
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BL-RG-09: "Ea" and "Arda" are just about the same in terms of metre, I think (both are two syllables, stressed on the first). Is Manwe ever called "Lord of Ea"? I suppose it's a valid title, in any case, as Iluvatar dwells outside Ea.
BL-RG-11.5: I think this proposal is good. BL-SL-03: Dropping the lines is a good solution, unless some better emendation can be found. BL-EX-09: It has just occurred to me that I may be pronouncing "Edrahil" incorrectly (I must admit that Elvish stress-patterns are not one of my strong points). Is it stressed on the first or the second syllable? If it's the latter, then your original suggestion is perfectly good. |
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#11 | |
King's Writer
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BL-RG-09:
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BL-EX-09: Sorry, but I have no idea at all how Edrahil is pronounced correctly in elvish. I pronounced it just out of the blue on the first syllable, but if that is correct I do not know. Respectfully Findegil |
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#12 | ||||
King's Writer
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As I promised I made the research for the death of Sauron. Here is what I found, to have any significance to the question:
QS36; draft text B: Quote:
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LAY: Quote:
I never thought that in doing so a Maiar would leaf a corpus behind, but it seems that this was an option, and I think that option was only possible at a coast, but granted Sauron a way of early escape. Since we must not make the text clearer than it was, we need not change anything, but my be we should address this issue in the appendix. Respectfully Findegil |
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#13 | |
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When I fist did compile this chapter I sought only of the newer sources for text. But while further reading I discovered a few snippets worth considering. Therefore following you will find further additions. I start with the end of the poem and give here all additions to the end of text not only the new ones for an easier reference.
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Findegil |
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#14 | |
King's Writer
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I found an addition to BL-EX-11.8. reading a bit before the passage we used is also some retrospectiv info that we might use. But to make it fit the place were we will put it we have change the arangement a bit:
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Respectfully Findegil |
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#15 | |||||
Late Istar
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My apologies again for the terrible state of neglect in which I've left this project. Here are my comments on the remainder of the original Beren and Luthien changes.
BL-SL-06: I’m inclined to think that the discrepancy between the Lay and QS77 can be put down to compression. BL-RG-40: Let’s retain the plural: Quote:
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BL-RG-45: I think we must look for a better solution to this line. The best case would be that we could keep the first line and find a new rhyme for “new”. Let’s see: Quote:
BL-RG-48: I suppose “Gods” is all right in this instance. BL-EX-12: I like the idea of incorporating details from the synopsis, but I think this sentence has become a little unwieldy. I suggest: Quote:
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I will, I hope, be able to go back over the unresolved points and look for better solutions to some lines this week. |
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#16 | ||
King's Writer
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Okay, your suggestions are good. Even BL-RG-45. All other ryhmings I could find do not seem to be much better:
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![]() Respectfully Findegil |
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#17 | ||||||||
Late Istar
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BL-EX-11.8: This is good; I would make one small change:
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BL-EX-18: Quote:
Similarly, the note concerning the meaning of Mablung's name feels out of place. Perhaps (and I'm surprised I'm suggesting this) a footnote would be a better place for this information. BL-EX-18.3: Quote:
BL-EX-18.7: I would make this: Quote:
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#18 | |
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To all i do not comment I agree.
BL-EX-17.5 I hesitated long about this. Is it think able that a Elf used a Orc weapon, because it seems mightier? I think not. But on the other hand, Orcs often used waepons from their foes, so this might be a weapon captured from by a orc-captina from some Dwarf in distance day and then captured by Mablung in a later battle. And since in the end our principle is to let a story stand if it can not be unproven, we should let the captured stand. BL-EX-18 A FOOTNOTE? ![]() I nearly had fall out of my chair when I read that. But if you find it fitting to bring in the information in that way, I am with you. BL-EX-18.3: Either we have to delet "holding it out" or "took it" one sentence later, or at least so I think. And since the first is an an addition I found it more apropirate to delet this, even if in its proper place it was the first time Mablung touched the Silmaril. BL-EX-18.7: Agreed to the first change. Yes, you are right. But I think we should still ceary Huan back with Beren and also I would like to take up the name Camlost and this heritage: Quote:
Findegil |
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#19 | |
Late Istar
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BL-EX-18.3: Ah, I understand now. I agree that "holding it out" should go.
BL-EX-18.7: This looks good to me. I've been working on some of the spots that remain problematic, but without much success so far. I did come up with something for BL-EX-10, though it still needs some work: Quote:
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#20 |
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BL-EX-10: That is definitly much better then my own try. I find it impresive. What do you don't like?
Respectfully Findegil |
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#21 | |
Late Istar
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Looking back on it, I suppose it's not that bad. I do worry a bit that it may be too great a deviation from the base text that is being versified.
The one line that still bothers me is: Quote:
I should have some time this weekend to work on other problematic spots. |
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#22 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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What about this:
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Respectfully Findegil |
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#23 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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I'm afraid "seek"/"indeed" is not a close enough rhyme. I will continue to look for a better rhyme - though at worst, I think the 'triple peak' line could suffice.
As for "you swore" versus "is your oath" - the only problem is that with "you swore" the line doesn't scan quite right. We could make it: Quote:
"Feanor's sons" vs. "sons of Feanor": I think that if we go with the latter, we need the definite article: Quote:
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#24 | |
King's Writer
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Lets try another time to bring this to a good end:
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Is their anything else missing in this chapter? I will try to get back into the text and the discussion and see if any point is still open. Respectfully Findegil |
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#25 |
King's Writer
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After a very quiet period I will try to restart with this part. As fare as I can see we only have to deicide on
BL-EX-03: There has as jet not been a final decision if we want to take the account of Berens journey through Nan Dungortheb into our version or not. Especially I would ask Maedhros to step in here and utter his opinion since Aiwendil and I seemed to be of different minds. Respectfully Findegil |
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#26 | ||||||
The Kinslayer
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I'm sorry that I have not posted in the Project for a long time, but hopefully my contributions will be more frequent from now on.
Lets have a summary of the previous discussion of BL-EX-03: Findegil: Quote:
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I wonder at the following, if one persons reads our Translations from the Elvish, wouldn't he tell us why there is nothing about the encounter that Beren had in Nan Dungortheb with the spiders, that he had already read in LOTR. I'm sorry for posting this Aiwendil, but you made the following point: Quote:
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#27 |
Late Istar
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Maedhros has convinced me (it seems references to the project's principles tend to do that). Tolkien may have taken the passage out for aesthetic reasons, but as it is valid canonically it can stay.
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#28 |
King's Writer
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Than I think we are done with this chapter.
Will work a bit on tonight and see if I can bring a finished version up in the privat forum. Respectfully Findegil |
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#29 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Late Istar
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As promised, here are the notes I have on the text of this chapter. I wrote these comments some two years ago, so they're not exactly fresh in my mind but I've just glanced through them again and I think I've sufficiently reminded myself of the issues they mention. Some of these are just typos which may or may not have already been caught and silently corrected.
Line 331: Quote:
BL-EX-04: There are two problems here that I hadn’t noticed: Quote:
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BL-EX-06: Re-reading this I noticed that we have not completely eliminated the retrospective aspect of the passage: Quote:
I think it might be best to drop lines 606-611 entirely: Quote:
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Line 1833: Quote:
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BL-RG-13: Same typo again: ‘Finrafin’ for ‘Finarfin’. BL-RG-15: Same typo again. BL-RG-16: If we take my suggestion for BL-RG-11.5 then we should probably make this: Quote:
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BL-EX-10: I think 2162 doesn’t scan right. Better would be: Quote:
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BL-SL-05: Quote:
More importantly, it seems to me that it’s not enough to remove lines 2381-2382. I think that it was not merely Boldog’s specific mission to capture Luthien that was rejected but rather the whole motif of Morgoth having heard of and desiring Thingol’s beautiful daughter. With that in mind, I think we may, unfortunately, need to delete most of the passage: Quote:
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BL-RG-30: I think the line is now too short. A metrical ‘now’ might work: Quote:
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On the other hand, Thuringwethil is named later in line 4227, so maybe this is unnecessary. BL-SL-07: As with BL-SL-05, it seems to me that not only Boldog’s raid but the whole element of Morgoth hearing of Luthien was removed. We can accomplish this like so: Quote:
BL-SL-08: Typo: ‘kraft’ for ‘craft’. As I think about it, I don’t know that the change {magic}[power] is necessary. I would also change ‘and the hallowing of Varda’ to ‘and hallowed by Varda’: Quote:
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#30 | ||
King's Writer
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A few comments as fare as I can do in a rush:
Line 331: Done. BL-EX-03: I think you missed one line, but you are correct that it is ungramatical. What about: Quote:
Line 764: Verry good catch. I agree to your suggestion. BL-RG-00.5: I like your suggestion, but I think the coma has to stay. The 'tree-propped halls' are Taurons halls in Valmaren it is not a description of the forest he rides in: Quote:
I will come back to the rest later on. Respectfuly Findegil |
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#31 | ||||
King's Writer
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Further comments:
BL-EX-06: I do not much like to lose these lines. What about: Quote:
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BL-RG-09 and [b]BL-RG-11.5[7b]: Good suggestions. Line 1880: I think you have one feet to much in line 1883. What about: Quote:
BL-EX-10:I agree to your two suggestions, but I think we have not enough counted sylables in these lines. What about: Quote:
Respectfuly Findegil |
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#32 | ||
King's Writer
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BL-SL-05:
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Still Boldog is to be kept, and why not his death at fights around Doriath? That such fights were commen is clear from the Narn were we hear from Beleg and Túrin fighting in Dimbar. In your editing the 'Whom do ye serve, Light or Mirk?' comes very abrupt. Also why not hold the mention of Lúthien and only skip Morogth interest in her? Sauron is another matter, his interrest could even be a trick just to test his opponents. Therefore I suggest: Quote:
BL-RG-40: I like your suggestion, but I for me the last line does now miss one syllable: 'Sauron's bats. What hast thou brought,' is only 7 syllables, or does I miss something? In addition I would move BL-EX-11 from line 4227 to this passage if we mention her name here. BL-SL-07: I don't agree to this. We skipt the disire of Morogth to posses Lúthien, but why should he not hear of the wanderings of Lúthien and ponder them and Thingols prupose? BL-SL-08: 'kraft' for 'craft': Ups, thats my german coming through. Corrected. {magic}[power]: I think that the change is needed. In Tolkien later writing magic has ever an evil conotation, which is unwanted here. Look at Galadriel reaktion to Sam speaking about 'elven-magic'. 'hallowing from' to 'hollwed by': Done. BL-EX-17.3: Corrected. In the third approach I have come through all your comments. I hope my one reactions might be helpfull. Respectfuly Findegil |
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#33 | |||
Late Istar
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Replies up to BL-EX-10 for now:
BL-EX-03: Yes, I think I must have parsed the editing wrong when I wrote that it added a non-rhyming line. The problem with your suggestion, which would have us use the 'fare' here as a verb rather than a noun, is that we'd have to render it in the past tense ('fared') and thus lose the rhyme. I suppose one could resort to a metrical 'did' to preserve the rhyme: Quote:
BL-RG-00.5: I don't think the comma is needed there, but it's a small point, and if you prefer it we can keep it. BL-EX-06: I'd still rather delete these lines, to be honest. Part of it is just that 'like a cloud' seems to me to be a very apt turn of phrase for describing the horrors fading from his mind, but not so much for the horrors being on his mind currently. Beyond that, I don't think it's so easy to eliminate the retrospective character of lines 608-611. Your suggestion to change 'all was stilled' to 'yet unstilled' works fine, but I don't think your lines 608 and 609 work. BL-RG-08.5: Using 'Noldor' rather disrupts the metre of line 1834, and I'm afraid the rhyme of 'alone' with 'home' doesn't quite work for me. But I agree it would be nice to keep these lines. I'll think about it and see if I can come up with anything. BL-RG-11.7: You're right that my proposed line 1883 has an extra foot. I think we can edit this more minimally, though: Quote:
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#34 | ||
King's Writer
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BL-EX-03: Agreed. We delet the two lines.
BL-EX-06: To better the image of the cloud we could replace the 'a cloud' by 'dark cloud'. But for to the rest of your doubts I have no answer right now. If I can't find anything better we will delet the passage. BL-RG-11.7: Agreed, we take: Quote:
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Findegil |
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#35 | |||||||||||||||||
Late Istar
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BL-EX-06: I'll see if I can come up with anything more suitable here as well.
BL-EX-10: At least we agree that a regular line of eight syllables is something to strive for when we can. Let me take this line by line. Quote:
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It occurs to me that we could probably do better by making the first two lines: Quote:
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So my proposal now is: Quote:
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#36 |
King's Writer
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BL-EX-10: Yes, that is much improved. We will take it.
Respectfuly Findegil |
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#37 | |
Late Istar
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Sorry for the long delay.
I have been thinking a lot about Boldog and the two passages BL-SL-05 and BL-SL-07. I agree in principle on two points: first, that even though the motif of Morgoth's desire to capture Luthien was removed, there is no need to remove the skirmish with Boldog, and second, that it is still possible for Morgoth to hear of Luthien's wanderings and ponder Thingol's purpose. So I think you're right about BL-SL-07 and I was being over-zealous in my suggestion. But I still have reservations about BL-SL-05. With the removal of Morgoth's desire for Luthien, it seems very strange for Sauron to mention her at all here. In the original, when he imagines Morgoth 'crushing a maiden in his hoard', he is clearly envisioning the intended outcome of Boldog's attack. But if Boldog's attack was just an ordinary border-skirmish, why does Sauron suddenly start talking about Luthien? I have to admit, I've even been wondering now and then whether it's possible that Boldog's objective of capturing Luthien was merely omitted from later sources rather than rejected. But in the end it's best to err on the side of caution. One other thing that's been knocking around in my head a bit is whether the note on Boldog from 'Myths Transformed' might have any implications for his role here. In MT, Tolkien first gives 'Boldog' as an example of an Orc whoe lived far longer than the lifespan of Men, but then speculates that 'Boldog' might in fact be a title or the name of an order of Maiar inferior to Balrogs. At first I thought that the first possibility (that Boldog was an Orc-captain who reappears many times over the centuries of the First Age) would preclude his being slain in the fight. But of course, it's possible that this is the last of those appearances. So in the end, I think the note doesn't oblige us to make any changes here. BL-RG-40: Yes, my line is only seven syllables; the first foot is missing a weak syllable. I have tried to come up with a better line, but I can't. Note that something like this: Quote:
BL-SL-08: I'm still not quite convinced that 'magic' is unsuitable here, but I suppose we can err on the side of caution and use 'power'. |
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#38 | ||||
King's Writer
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First the easier issues:
BL-RG-40: I agree that 'Saurons' heralds' is also not very good. What about: Quote:
BL-EX-11.5: Reading more in the Lay I found the word 'magic' so often that it is impossible to remove it everywere. That means it can stand here as well. BL-SL_05: Quote:
- Beren and Felagund leave Nargothrond - At the 'turn of summer' Melain tells Lúthien of Berens imprisonment by Sauron (this must be a forsight in any case) - At 'autumn's wild beginning' Felagund and Beren disguise as Orcs - Luthien's flight from Doriath - Morogth hears of here wandering and sents Boldog - Luthien is captured in Nargothrond - Thingol prepares an attack on Nargothrond - Thingol meets Boldogs war-band and crashes it - Beren and Felagund before Sauron It did not came to my mind reading the Lay that it had taken Beren and Felagund so long to wander from the source of Narog to the Pass of Sirion. Anyhow it is safest to remove the special mission of Boldog, as we already agreed and it could be that we have found one good reason why Tolkien did remove it. Quote:
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Respectfuly Findegil |
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#39 | |||||
Late Istar
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Don't know if you're still around at all, Findegil, but here are my latest thoughts on unresolved points.
BL-RG-40: Quote:
So, I think that in terms of stress and syllable-count, 'Sauron' and 'Gorthaur' are identical. BL-SL-05: Quote:
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Also, I think BL-EX-10 can in fact be improved slightly further with: Quote:
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#40 | ||
King's Writer
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Posted by Aiwendil:
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BL-RG-40: We will stay with Sauron then. BL-SL-05: Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
I may be do not rightly understand what is the non sequitar that does trouble you. BL-EX-10: Agreed. Respectfuly Findegil |
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