Eriol/Aelfwine - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Arvegil145 · 08-25-2015, 02:39 PM

To start off this topic, I must say that I am aware that Aelfwine is out in your revision, but just as a thought experiment...how would you deal with Eriol/Aelfwine stories? Are they in any way salvageable?

What would the framework look like? Where to begin, where to end? What to keep, and what to abandon? Should the details of Eriol's stay in Tol Eressëa be kept? What about the Notion Club Papers and the Lost Road? Are all these stories in any way reconcilable?

I am not suggesting those should be included, I am simply trying to wrap my head around how, if anyhow, all of that mess could be made into a single, coherent narrative without resorting to (too much) fan-fiction.

Again, this is simply a thought experiment, and I am dying to hear other people's opinions on this matter.

Findegil · 08-26-2015, 09:27 AM

What the frame work stories do is providing us with means of transmission of the stories from times/places were they are well remembered to our own time were we observe them as fresh and new. The frame work story always tries to generate some credibility for the main story. But what they do as well is generating a way of any version conflict observed in the main story. One cold look at these versions and connect them to a transmission path (given in the frame work story). As an example take the story of Numenore. Tolkien wrote with two very distinct perspectives: mannish 'Drowning of Andunie' and elvish 'The Fall of Numenore' and then he combined it to the 'Akalabeth' (please bear with me, if the titles are wrong, I am writing out of memory). And these versions are connected to the different frame work stories The Lost Road and The Notion Club papers.

Looking into real world history you will easily find the same: read an American book about the Vietnam War and the pick up one from Vietnam. Hopefully you could recognize that they are about the same historical event! And that event is still within living memory. Differences might become even greater the farther back in history you look.

The Lost Road and the Notion Club Papers are very easily combined as both speak about dream journey into the (imaginary) past. If one would accept that such journey are possible then it is more than probable that more than one pair of persons would go on such a journey to the same location (in time and space) and use similar 'steps'. And since they are different people setting down the story as they received it, the accounts would naturally be different. But then you will find a lot of people that would not agree with such a combination and argue that the Notion Club Papers were probably meant to replace the Lost Road frame work.

The Eriol / Ælfwine story is more difficult, at least if we do not take the one version from the Lost Tales were Ælfwine comes back with the ship without ever setting a foot on Tol Eresseä. One issue we have with it, is that we have even different versions of that frame story, once Erriol is bound into the Germanic background of the Anglo-Saxon invasion, once he is Anglo-Saxon himself fleeing from the Danish invasion in the time of Alfred the Great. Here again, if you like you could combine all these versions, seeing them as 'history' repeated. But again you would find people arguing with even more force that the one version did replace the other. And last but not least some people will tell you that all this was replaced by Bilbo's 'Translation from the Elvish'.

Respectfuly
Findegil

Arvegil145 · 08-26-2015, 01:15 PM

Hello, and thanks for the reply again.

The reason I started this thread is that I'm still sitting on the fence in regards to Aelfwine. While it is true that Bilbo replaced him as the means of transmitting the story, late texts such as Aelfwine and Dírhaval seem a little odd.

What I'd like is to hear yours and other opinions in regards to what would you keep, and how would you reconstruct the story of Aelfwine IF you would (of course, hypothetically) keep him as a part of "The New Silmarillion".

P.S. One more thing...it seems to me from the account given in The Book of Lost Tales that there are many interesting details concerning Tol Eressëa that could be saved in the current revisions of the chapters (though I admit that I don't really see how could they be incorporated without sounding too forced).

Arvegil145 · 08-29-2015, 10:52 PM

Another question I wanted to ask is how much of Eriol's story could be salvaged (with necessary emendations)?

What names and characters are still valid in the light of the later development of the legendarium?

Findegil · 09-01-2015, 11:15 AM

The decision of the project not to use any frame work story was taken long ago before my time even as a silent oberserver. Nonetheless I know the main argument against Eriol: Bilbo's Translation from the Evish. That massive work of old Bilbo was considered the virtuell single source and therefore Ælfwine/Eriol had to go.

Anyhow, I do understand your interrest. But it is very hard to answer your questions in the very general way you ask them.
To be more specific for a single example: Ingil we have take up into our version as leader of the rescue army send at the end of the 1. age. It is nowhere said that he died, so in my point of view the information given in LT that he setteled for a time in Tol Eresseä before he returned to Valinor can still be valid. But some people will counter that in LT he was forbidden to return to Valinor at first due to fact that the resuce army of the evels left without the consens of the Valar and that only for that reason he had to stay on Eresseä, so that the Ingil of the later version would not stay there. But however that may be, he still could have a daugther (Meril) living at some later time on Eresseä. If here epesse 'i-Turinqi' is valid elvish of any kind I cannot say, but Meril is perfectly fitting. And that she as the granddaughter of Ingwe would be a kind of authority for the Elves on Eresseä seems rather naturally.

The descriptiv details of LT about Tol Eresseä I would also call very likely valid. They are of course a spledid idealisation of rural english country side, but way not? The same can be said about the Shire, but nobody would for that reason doubt that Tolkien meant that country to look like he wrote it into the LotR.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: Please keep in mind that this is only my oppionion and be no means a statement connected to the Translation of Elvish project. Other members active or not might have very diffrent ideas about these topics.

Arvegil145 · 09-04-2015, 06:21 AM

Fun fact: the name Mar Vanwa Tyaliéva was still used by Tolkien in the 1950s! Although it was one of the names of Rivendell, meaning "House of Past Mirth".

The name Meril, as you say, is of course still valid, meaning "rose" in Sindarin (if I remember correctly). Concerning i-Turinqi/Turinqui I'm not sure. I think the name meant "Queen of Flowers" ("Meril" at that point meaning "flower", not "rose").

To get into specifics:

- Tavrobel: location itself is not a problem, I think, but the name might be
- Kortirion (Cortirion): same thing, although Tolkien revised the poem "Kortirion among the Trees" in the '60s, I think, so the name might be valid
- Lindo and Vairë: Lindo is in my opinion valid, meaning "singer"; but I have some problems with Vairë - although it IS a valid name (meaning "weaver"), there's the problem of having Vairë as one of the Valar in the later mythology - but I guess they could bear the same name
- Littleheart (Ilfrin): I'm not sure about the name (the real one), and I don't really know what to make of "Littleheart"; another problem is him being a son of Voronwë - could it still be valid in the later mythology? I guess it could (somehow), but I'm having some reservations about it
- The Cottage of Lost Play: now...its elvish name is valid (as I demonstrated) - however, the entire concept is questionable...
- Tinfang Warble: as is shown in the The Lay of Leithian Recommenced, this character appears to have been abandoned
- Limpë: "limpë" plays a big role in the "Lost Tales", but, of course, a drink that gives immortality to the one who drinks it is completely at odds with pretty much everything that is established later
- Rúmil is, naturally, canonical - but he simply cannot be on Tol Eressëa when Eriol arrives (I mean, he might be, but that is too big of a stretch for me)
- Gilfanon appears to have been replaced by Pengolodh

OK, that's it for now. I hope I wasn't (too) overbearing.

Arvegil145 · 09-10-2015, 07:08 AM

Well...this thread seems to be dying. I would be glad if it was resurrected at some point - but there are other matters more important.

Arvegil145 · 09-14-2015, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Fun fact: the name Mar Vanwa Tyaliéva was still used by Tolkien in the 1950s! Although it was one of the names of Rivendell, meaning "House of Past Mirth".

The name Meril, as you say, is of course still valid, meaning "rose" in Sindarin (if I remember correctly). Concerning i-Turinqi/Turinqui I'm not sure. I think the name meant "Queen of Flowers" ("Meril" at that point meaning "flower", not "rose").

To get into specifics:

- Tavrobel: location itself is not a problem, I think, but the name might be
- Kortirion (Cortirion): same thing, although Tolkien revised the poem "Kortirion among the Trees" in the '60s, I think, so the name might be valid
- Lindo and Vairë: Lindo is in my opinion valid, meaning "singer"; but I have some problems with Vairë - although it IS a valid name (meaning "weaver"), there's the problem of having Vairë as one of the Valar in the later mythology - but I guess they could bear the same name
- Littleheart (Ilfrin): I'm not sure about the name (the real one), and I don't really know what to make of "Littleheart"; another problem is him being a son of Voronwë - could it still be valid in the later mythology? I guess it could (somehow), but I'm having some reservations about it
- The Cottage of Lost Play: now...its elvish name is valid (as I demonstrated) - however, the entire concept is questionable...
- Tinfang Warble: as is shown in the The Lay of Leithian Recommenced, this character appears to have been abandoned
- Limpë: "limpë" plays a big role in the "Lost Tales", but, of course, a drink that gives immortality to the one who drinks it is completely at odds with pretty much everything that is established later
- Rúmil is, naturally, canonical - but he simply cannot be on Tol Eressëa when Eriol arrives (I mean, he might be, but that is too big of a stretch for me)
- Gilfanon appears to have been replaced by Pengolodh

OK, that's it for now. I hope I wasn't (too) overbearing.

Look...I know this is not the kind of thread to post on this part of the forum, but it would seem courteous of you to at least respond to my questions...or to dismiss me completely...

Findegil · 09-15-2015, 10:02 AM

Due to your insolence, I spend already more time for the work on the project than is good for my other occupations. As Long as that is the case I will not put any efford into this thread, since it is clearly a side-step from the main activity of project.

Respectfuly
Findegil

Arvegil145 · 09-15-2015, 12:02 PM

No problem. And I apologize sincerely for my insolence. I will now turn to matters more important and urgent than this thread.

08-26-2015, 09:27 AM	#2
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,720	What the frame work stories do is providing us with means of transmission of the stories from times/places were they are well remembered to our own time were we observe them as fresh and new. The frame work story always tries to generate some credibility for the main story. But what they do as well is generating a way of any version conflict observed in the main story. One cold look at these versions and connect them to a transmission path (given in the frame work story). As an example take the story of Numenore. Tolkien wrote with two very distinct perspectives: mannish 'Drowning of Andunie' and elvish 'The Fall of Numenore' and then he combined it to the 'Akalabeth' (please bear with me, if the titles are wrong, I am writing out of memory). And these versions are connected to the different frame work stories The Lost Road and The Notion Club papers. Looking into real world history you will easily find the same: read an American book about the Vietnam War and the pick up one from Vietnam. Hopefully you could recognize that they are about the same historical event! And that event is still within living memory. Differences might become even greater the farther back in history you look. The Lost Road and the Notion Club Papers are very easily combined as both speak about dream journey into the (imaginary) past. If one would accept that such journey are possible then it is more than probable that more than one pair of persons would go on such a journey to the same location (in time and space) and use similar 'steps'. And since they are different people setting down the story as they received it, the accounts would naturally be different. But then you will find a lot of people that would not agree with such a combination and argue that the Notion Club Papers were probably meant to replace the Lost Road frame work. The Eriol / Ælfwine story is more difficult, at least if we do not take the one version from the Lost Tales were Ælfwine comes back with the ship without ever setting a foot on Tol Eresseä. One issue we have with it, is that we have even different versions of that frame story, once Erriol is bound into the Germanic background of the Anglo-Saxon invasion, once he is Anglo-Saxon himself fleeing from the Danish invasion in the time of Alfred the Great. Here again, if you like you could combine all these versions, seeing them as 'history' repeated. But again you would find people arguing with even more force that the one version did replace the other. And last but not least some people will tell you that all this was replaced by Bilbo's 'Translation from the Elvish'. Respectfuly Findegil

09-01-2015, 11:15 AM	#5
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,720	The decision of the project not to use any frame work story was taken long ago before my time even as a silent oberserver. Nonetheless I know the main argument against Eriol: Bilbo's Translation from the Evish. That massive work of old Bilbo was considered the virtuell single source and therefore Ælfwine/Eriol had to go. Anyhow, I do understand your interrest. But it is very hard to answer your questions in the very general way you ask them. To be more specific for a single example: Ingil we have take up into our version as leader of the rescue army send at the end of the 1. age. It is nowhere said that he died, so in my point of view the information given in LT that he setteled for a time in Tol Eresseä before he returned to Valinor can still be valid. But some people will counter that in LT he was forbidden to return to Valinor at first due to fact that the resuce army of the evels left without the consens of the Valar and that only for that reason he had to stay on Eresseä, so that the Ingil of the later version would not stay there. But however that may be, he still could have a daugther (Meril) living at some later time on Eresseä. If here epesse 'i-Turinqi' is valid elvish of any kind I cannot say, but Meril is perfectly fitting. And that she as the granddaughter of Ingwe would be a kind of authority for the Elves on Eresseä seems rather naturally. The descriptiv details of LT about Tol Eresseä I would also call very likely valid. They are of course a spledid idealisation of rural english country side, but way not? The same can be said about the Shire, but nobody would for that reason doubt that Tolkien meant that country to look like he wrote it into the LotR. Respectfully Findegil P.S.: Please keep in mind that this is only my oppionion and be no means a statement connected to the Translation of Elvish project. Other members active or not might have very diffrent ideas about these topics.

09-15-2015, 10:02 AM	#9
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,720	Due to your insolence, I spend already more time for the work on the project than is good for my other occupations. As Long as that is the case I will not put any efford into this thread, since it is clearly a side-step from the main activity of project. Respectfuly Findegil