The Ring and the other races

[Noxomanus]

Now we all know Men,Maiar and Hobbits wore the One Ring and how it worked out it's power on them.
We also have an idea of what it would do to the Dwarves, should they have gotten hold of it.

But do we have any idea about what would happened if an Elf, an Eagle, an Ent, a Warg, a Troll,an Orc, a Dragon had been a Ringbearer? How would the Ring have worked out on them?

I guess Orcs, Trolls and Wargs would have given it to Sauron, as he was their master. An Elf might have tried to use it for the good of Arda,failing in the effort.
An Ent might have tried to use it's power to restore nature a la Sam's vision of what he could do with the Ring when he wore it.

Now Dragons and Eagles are very interesting. Both of them are unlike the humanoid races so may have reacted in a very different way. With Dragons, I don't really know if they'd give the Ring to Sauron...for one, they were not that close to each other, then the Dragons have a rather strong personality and last but not least, an extra powerful, invisible(!) Dragon might be a very dangerous enemy. As for Eagles..I have no clue.

Any thoughts?

[Boromir88]

Well we know Elrond and Galadriel wanted the ring to flock armies to their banner and overthrow Sauron. They both knew well about the ring, and knew that the ring in the end would cause nothing but destruction, so they threw those thoughts away and did their own part to help Frodo, good job you two .

What was interesting that was brought up in a "Chapter-By-chapter" discussion was it appears that "unconscious" beings of who has the ring, are yet drawn to that person. For example the Watcher in the Water, the Orc Captain in Moria, are both drawn to Frodo, yet they are unaware that he has the ring. The Ring works to draw creatures like that, to the ring-bearer, for it's own purposes, rather manipulative that little golden ring works.

I would think if an Ent had gotten the Ring, I don't know they would have used it to bring back the Entwives? Or maybe, use it to seek out the Entwives, who knows.

[Rimbaud]

An interesting thought; speculatively, I would conject that the Ring appeals to a base greed in the afore-mentioned creatures, a facet of the Ents it might find difficult to 'awaken'.

[obloquy]

I would think if an Ent had gotten the Ring, I don't know they would have used it to bring back the Entwives? Or maybe, use it to seek out the Entwives, who knows.

How could the Ring be used to do this?

The Ring had a specific design: to dominate others, and to exalt its master. The Ring didn't do anything, outside of this. If a bearer did not understand this purpose, and tried to keep the Ring without using it to this specific end, he would be "destroyed" by the Ring and enslaved, like Smeagol, or, to lesser degrees, Bilbo and Frodo. If the bearer was aware of the Ring's power (its sole power, mind you) and tried to use it, I can see three possibilities: 1) he would be proven naive and have the same fate as the ignorant one; 2) he would be fooled into thinking he was achieving his ends, only to be betrayed by the Ring; 3) the bearer would utterly break Sauron's imbued power/spirit and become the Ring's new master. Under these last circumstances, it's hard to say what would happen. Could the bearer enslave Sauron's power to use as his own? Or would the Ring just "die" with Sauron and become useless? I would guess the latter, and Tolkien says in Letters that an individual successfully claiming the Ring would be tantamount, as far as Sauron is concerned, to destroying it: that is, Sauron would be reduced to impotence. He doesn't say whether the Ring's power could persist even after Sauron's destruction, but I doubt it.

I doubt a dragon or an eagle would care much for the Ring. Why would a dragon need it? What would it do with it? The Ring is unlikely to make its way back to Sauron sitting in a dragon's hoard, so if it found itself there, it probably wouldn't stick around long. Eagles don't seem to have much to do with any world but their own, and I would be surprised if they cared enough for kingdoms and riches and subjects for the Ring to appeal to them. Kinda like Bombadil.

[Boromir88]

But the ring would no doubt offer the Ents back their Entwives. There is no way the Entwives will just reappear, only logical reasoning is they are either extinct or just wondered away somewhere. However, the Ring would feed off the Ents desires of getting back the Entwives, so it would offer the Entwives back to the Ents, as a way of manipulation.

[obloquy]

But the ring would no doubt offer the Ents back their Entwives.

Yes doubt. :P

There is no way the Entwives will just reappear, only logical reasoning is they are either extinct or just wondered away somewhere. However, the Ring would feed off the Ents desires of getting back the Entwives, so it would offer the Entwives back to the Ents, as a way of manipulation.

Manipulation to what end? Mischief?

The Ring didn't just offer whatever. Those affected by it envisioned themselves achieving greatness, or becoming mighty, or possessing/ruling something. I don't think it would have offered me a turkey sandwich unless there would be something to be gained by me desiring to claim it. My whole point was that it had designs and used its influence to further them, not just as an indiscriminate cry for attention.

[Boromir88]

Those affected by it envisioned themselves achieving greatness, or becoming mighty, or possessing/ruling something.

Not really. The Ring to Bilbo (as well as Smeagol) was more like a toy. Where they could play jokes, disappear, hide, they didn't take the ring in order to control other people, or achieve greatness, have dominion over everyone. They saw it as a valuable item, to play pranks on people, or to "cherish."

The Entwives to the Ents aren't just some "random turkey sandwhiches," it's creatures they've desired back now for a long time. That is a trait the ring can work with. It could offer the Ents dominion over everyone, and in return being reunited with the Entwives. The Entwives would be something the Ring would definately play with, in order to lure in the Ents.

[obloquy]

Not really. The Ring to Bilbo (as well as Smeagol) was more like a toy. Where they could play jokes, disappear, hide, they didn't take the ring in order to control other people, or achieve greatness, have dominion over everyone. They saw it as a valuable item, to play pranks on people, or to "cherish."

But that doesn't change that the Ring had its own purposes for being "possessed" by those bearers. When the time was right, it abandoned Gollum. Bilbo's possession was the perfect place for it to rest, as nobody knew its true power, and Sauron was sure to come looking for it.

The Entwives to the Ents aren't just some "random turkey sandwhiches," it's creatures they've desired back now for a long time. That is a trait the ring can work with. It could offer the Ents dominion over everyone, and in return being reunited with the Entwives. The Entwives would be something the Ring would definately play with, in order to lure in the Ents.

But for what? Lure them into what? To make them his servants? When Sauron wanted to enslave a people, he didn't give them the Ring to wear; the Ring was for his hand only, and the subjugation of races was done by other means. I mean, even if Treebeard had the Ring on his twig and was totally convinced that it would yield some hot tree babes, the most the Ring could hope to achieve is alerting Sauron to its whereabouts and revealing to him the thoughts of a tree-person who was largely unconcerned with the goings-on of the outside world. Even if Treebeard cared for the Ring, the Ring would not likely have cared for him.

[Boromir88]

I mean, even if Treebeard had the Ring on his twig and was totally convinced that it would yield some hot tree babes, the most the Ring could hope to achieve is alerting Sauron to its whereabouts and revealing to him the thoughts of a tree-person who was largely unconcerned with the goings-on of the outside world.

So you admit there's a possibility. That's all I've been trying to say. I'm not saying that's what will happen, for you may be right, I don't see Ents ever coming into possession of the Ring. I'm just simply saying, theoretically, if Treebeard happened to stumble upon it, I would think the Ring would use the Entwives to lure in the Ents. Now, what could the Ring accomplish by doing this?

Well you've said...

the most the Ring could hope to achieve is alerting Sauron to its whereabouts and revealing to him the thoughts of a tree-person

Which goes back to what I stated in my first post.

What was interesting that was brought up in a "Chapter-By-chapter" discussion was it appears that "unconscious" beings of who has the ring, are yet drawn to that person. For example the Watcher in the Water, the Orc Captain in Moria, are both drawn to Frodo, yet they are unaware that he has the ring.

If the Ring feels it can get back into the hands of Sauron, by being in the hands of an Ent, then it would do so. Since the Ents would most likely be dumbfounded, and not know how to use such a thing, none the less, they would take it because of what the Ring has to offer them (if anything). Or, they could pull a Bombadil and just not care and throw it away. IF the Ring saw any use in being in the possession of an Ent, it would use the Entwives, is all I'm saying.

[akhtene]

I really can’t remember anything the Ring directly OFFERED to Its bearers. It simply kindled their deepest desires, the will to achieve what they wanted (by ways the Ring chose for them). So IMHO with an Ent / or Ents It would probably have set them chasing their Entwives coming ever closer to Mordor or any place where they could be intercepted.

BTW, wasn’t Gandalf himself then ensnared by the Ring, as it was his idea to send the Company east? The pattern seems the same – the uttermost desire to save the world, but in the direction most convenient for the Ring and Its Master.

[Gurthang]

I don't think the ring had any effect on Gandalf sending the ring towards Mordor. Gandalf did not possess the ring for very long, in fact not at all is about as accurate, and so it could not have attached itself to him. His thought was only to end Sauron's campaign quickly, and the only way was to unmake the ring.

But as far as other's possessing the ring, it would depend on how strong their will was. The ring had a will of its own, we know that. So when someone, or something, puts it on, it becomes a battle of wills. It will be a losing battle for bearer, for the ring will never tire and is from the beginning very strong. Eventually, the ring would overcome anyone. If something has a very weak will, such as a warg or a troll, they would be defeated by the ring quickly and would give it to Sauron. Others might last longer, but in the end they would all become trapped by the ring's power.

[obloquy]

No, it was possible to overcome The One Ring and become its master. Doing this, however, would defeat Sauron just as effectively as destroying the Ring. The only question is whether the Ring, in this scenario, would maintain any of its power (since it stems from Sauron's own spirit) or if it would be rendered useless. I believe Tolkien speculates at one point that if Gandalf had mastered the Ring and overthrown Sauron in this manner, the end would still be a corruption of his power and intentions, but I'm not entirely sure that this should be considered anything more than speculation, albeit weighty. Were Tolkien able to discuss it, I would ask him if it was inconceivable for a power like Gandalf to thoroughly enslave the remnant of Sauron's power anchored in the Ring to his own righteous will. If so, wouldn't we then have to ask if Sauron's created nature was evil, rather than a free moral agent, since his power cannot be harnessed for good?

[Gurthang]

I remember a discussion(I'll see if I can find it) that concluded that even if one could master the Ring, it would still end up on top. The will of the ring can only be destroyed by destroying the ring. Otherwise it would never stop pushing against its bearer's will. Even if the bearer was not completely consumed by the ring, as Gollum was, it would still have a strong influence, as in Bilbo's case. So as time goes on, the ring would have a stronger and stronger influence as the bearer's will becomes weaker. Finally the bearer's will would be mostly obedient to the ring.

[the phantom]

How would a dragon put on a ring, anyway?

[obloquy]

I doubt that the discussion concluded that, since that is just one of the possibilities we might conjecture.

[Boromir88]

How would a dragon put on a ring, anyway?

I wonder if a Dragon would eat the Ring, and in that way work it's magic.

[the phantom]

We should start a thread entitled "What if a dragon ate The Ring?"

I'm sure we could spend hours going over Tolkien's many essays on the subject.

But such a serious title would probably discourage newbies from joining in.

[obloquy]

But such a serious title would probably discourage newbies from joining in.

Hahahaha!!!! I'll bet!!!

[Legolas]

I believe Tolkien speculates at one point that if Gandalf had mastered the Ring and overthrown Sauron in this manner, the end would still be a corruption of his power and intentions,

This was discussed in Letter No. 246:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.

Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).

[The draft ends here. In the margin Tolkien wrote: 'Thus while Sauron multiplied [illegible word] evil, he left "good" clearly distinguishable from it. Gandalf would have made good detestable and seem evil.']

[obloquy]

Thanks, Lego. That's the bit I was referring to and it's just how I remembered it. Tolkien's belief is that the Ring would continue to corrupt even after Sauron is overthrown.

But doesn't this open up a can of worms in regard to the created nature of Sauron's spirit? If the power he invested in the Ring was evil independent of his will or his existence, wouldn't the implication be that Sauron was, by nature, evil? Or was the impotent spirit that Sauron would become (since we know no spirit could be wholly destroyed except by Eru) enough to keep the Ring's malice persistent?

Thoughts?

It occurs to me now that Tolkien was not saying Gandalf would be corrupted to evil, but that Gandalf would be capable of too much good. He would direct his subjects according to his superior wisdom--for their own good, of course--and in this way he would deprive them of their free will.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Or was the impotent spirit that Sauron would become (since we know no spirit could be wholly destroyed except by Eru) enough to keep the Ring's malice persistent?

That's my reading of what Tolkien is saying. Which, in a way, makes the creation of the Ring a "win-win" scenario for Sauron, doesn't it? At least until the final battle.

Originally Posted by obloquy

It occurs to me now that Tolkien was not saying Gandalf would be corrupted to evil, but that Gandalf would be capable of too much good. He would direct his subjects according to his superior wisdom--for their own good, of course--and in this way he would deprive them of their free will.

But isn't that evil by another name? If it is undesirable to those (good people) affected by it, imposed on them by force and, most importantly, contrary to the will of Eru (denial of free will), then surely it falls within Tolkien's conception of evil.

[obloquy]

But isn't that evil by another name?

I think this is exactly what Tolkien means when he says that Gandalf would blur the lines of good and evil and thus be worse than Sauron.

So, Tolkien was looking farther into the future than I was. The Ring can be mastered and used for good, but ultimately, the bearer's self-righteous imposition of his wisdom on others would be tantamount to enslavement.

[Noxomanus]

How would a Dragon wear the One Ring? The Ring adjusted it's size to it's bearer, so we could expect a Ring the size of a hoola-hoop

[Gurthang]

The ring changed its size to make itself appear more desirable to whoever held it. Isildur said it seemed to change shape in his hand, and he took it for himself. A dragon would only keep the ring because it was gold and they keep gold. They don't use what they keep, they just keep it to have it.

So a person would say, "Oh, here's a pretty little ring, and it's just my size!", and then keep it.

But a dragon would say, "Oh, here's a pretty hula-hoop. It will go good with my collection.", and toss it onto his mountain of treasure and forget about it.

The dragon would not use the ring, so the ring would have little reason to change its size to be desirable to the dragon.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

The dragon would not use the ring, so the ring would have little reason to change its size to be desirable to the dragon.

Surely if the Ring saw the Dragon as a means of getting back to its Master, it would seek to entice the Dragon into wearing it. There is much that the Ring could promise a Dragon. What makes you think that the Dragon would have the strength of will to resist it?

[Gurthang]

I thought that Dragons had very strong wills, and could daunt even the toughest warriors just by gazing at them. I know they have the ability to cast spells with their eyes, and then almost control another's will. It would only make sense then that they had strong wills themselves. I could be wrong though.

[the phantom]

Yes, I'm sure dragons have very strong wills, but SP asked "What makes you think that the Dragon would have the strength of will to resist it?"

Just like Boromir has strong arms but he still can't beat a gorilla in arm-wrestling.

[gorthaur_cruel]

Elves; it is simple. Tolkien already laid out possible situations on how Elrond and Galadriel could've used the Ring. They'd eventually fall prey to the Ring.

Orcs, I think, would've actually tried to keep it for themselves. They are not wholly under Sauron's will. They only act under fear of Sauron and hatred of the Free Peoples. If they were given a power that (they think) would be enough to topple Sauron, they'd use it. One of the main reasons that Sauron used the Nazguls to hunt for the Ring was because he could be sure they wouldn't claim the Ring for their own (see Unfinished Tales). I'm not sure about Trolls...would they be smart enough?

However, what intrigues me is the possibilities of a Vala claiming the Ring...

The Ring was made by Sauron, so its power can't be greater than Sauron's original native strength, can it? So the question is, if somebody was more powerful than Sauron ever was, would he be able to truly master the One Ring and remain uncorrupted? After all, the Ring's corrupting power is essentially Sauron's own power acting.

So if Manwe somehow ended up with the Ring, I think that he could actually use its power for good. Would he be able to hallow it and make it 'pure'?

[Saurreg]

According to Letter No. 246 Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf can possess the capability to destroy Sauron. But for the former two, to what extent will the Darklord's "destruction" be?

I can imagine the destruction of all of Mordor's forces, the death of Sauron's minions and perhaps the destruction of Sauron's own corporal body itself physically, but can the very essence of sauron be destroyed by elves with the ring? After all the darklord fled the cataclysm that was destruction of Numenor itself.

If the wielders of the ring are ultimately corrupted by the evil influence in the ring, does it mean that an essence of Sauron still survives in the end and wins? Or is the ring a independent source of evil by itself with or without Sauron?

[gorthaur_cruel]

I think that question can be answered by this from Tolkien:

If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.

I don't think a Vala would have any use for the ring, it would be too feeble for them to bother with, kinda like a dragon with a bb gun.

[Thinlómien]

Dragons would of course taken the Ring, but considered it only as a part of their treasure, maybe a not even regarding it any higher than their other things, a ring is after all only a little bit of gold.
But in the other hand dragons are very clever. Maybe they would have used it. I don't know.

(I say them, because I speak about dragons generally, groupwork with the ring seems to be impossible... I just wanted to make it clear.)

[Neithan]

Dragons would take the Ring as a treasure as Thinlómien said. But I think that the Ring's power would work on the Dragon to some extent and it would treasure it above all other wealth. Think of what Gollom did with it and now imagine a creature who is already a treasure hoarder.
Orcs, being already evil and weak willed, would be overcome by the Ring almost immediatly. They would fade much quicker than other races.
Trolls would last an even shorter time because of their relative stupidity.
Ents would not understand a thing like the Ring. Being of nature they are wholly different from it. So I doubt the Ring would be able to corrupt them. The same goes for the Eagles.
A Valar would have no interest in the Ring but Morgoth would probably take it if he was still around. It would be far more deadly in his hands than it had been with Sauron.

As for the will of Sauron in the Ring, the ability of the Ring to awaken the desires of others is not dependent on Sauron's will. As obloguy has said the only use for the Ring is to dominate others, it cannot be used for anything else. It awakens the desire for domination in others and the desire for them to use it(the Ring) which, of course, leads to domination. This is what Tolkien was saying would happen to Gandalf, he would not become "evil" per se but he would become dominating. Just as some well intentioned religions have done.

[Vitesse]

I too agree with the conclusion that a Dragon would probably take the ring as a treasure but do absolutely nothing with it - until the dragon were ultimately overwhelmed by Sauron's forces and killed, the ring retrieved. I don't think that a Dragon would by nature be able or have the desire to use the ring, but I'm sure it would work it's way into the psyche of said dragon as it's most valuable posession. A Dragon might also eat it - but the claim is that the ring can't be destroyed except at the point of it's creation, so a Dragon might just have the ring trapped in it's belly forever.

I also think that the Ents would have no understanding of what such a thing would be used for or why it would be relevant to them - like Tom, they'd probably ignore it/be unaffected by it. Similarly, I think the Eagles - some of the oldest creatures in Middle Earth - would have no interest in it.

If an Orc or a Troll took it, Sauron would know, and the Nazgul would then take it from them. Though not really under his dominion, I'm sure that Sauron would be able to "sense" the ring more if it were being used by an Orc or a Troll. Plus, Orcs being so prone to killing eachother, I'm sure that Orcs would self destruct if they got ahold of it, in a possessive rage they'd probably start killing eachother. Trolls I don't think could grasp what the ring was, but if they did manage to get ahold of it - I'm sure the ring would exert it's will to somehow get back to Sauron. Trolls being rather dim bulbs, I'm sure it would manipulate them easier than most creatures.

A good question to my mind is what would have happened had the Balrog of Moria gotten it? Maiar twisted by Morgoth, just like Sauron (though to a more radical physical extent), would the Moria Balrog be capable of wielding it, perhaps even supplanting Sauron? The Moria Balrog was already the dominant creature in it's environment, and certainly had a dark will to destroy what it did not wish to posess. The ring would only augment this attitude/situation. In essence, the Balrogs were already corrupted so the Ring might be made to be subservient to (one of) them, rather than the other way around. Balrogs were, to be sure, fearsome enemies and I think the Moria Balrog could probably have held it's own against the Nazgul. It was certainly capable of beating up on orcs and trolls. Of course, we know that Gandalf and Glorfindel were both capable of slaying a Balrog, which calls into question whether or not the Balrog could indefinitely survive against the united forces of the nine and Sauron's other servants.

[Neithan]

The Balrog would definately be able to use it. It would seek to overthrow Sauron, but whether it could accomplish this is another story. It could pobably bring all of the Orcs of Moria under its contol pretty quickly and that would give it the beginings of an army. I don't think the Balrog would be able to overcome Sauron's will that was put into the Ring so it would still want to serve Sauron rather than the Balrog. For the same reason the Nine would be divided in their service and would probably not fight against either of them. Even if the Balrog did manage to defeat Sauron (and that would not be easy, even with the Ring) it would not be able to permanently destroy Sauron's body. Sauron's power would remain in the Ring because the Balrog would not be powerful enough to completely master it and so he would keep coming back. The scary thought is that the Balrog would gain access into the minds of Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond. I don't know if he would be able to master Gandalf, Gandalf had the greater mind but that might not matter when the Balrog had the One Ring. My guess is that he would master Gandalf.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

See Grishnákh in The Uruk-Hai.