Did Denethor Know?

[Meron]

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I was scanning through a Middle Earth encyclopedia, and read an entry that stated that Denethor sent Boromir to Rivendell to get the ring. In all the times that I have read the story, it never occurred to me that Denethor knew what Isildur's Bane was at the time that he sent Boromir to Rivendell, even though it would explain in part why he insisted that Boromir, and not Faramir, make the trip. Was there something obvious that I simply missed, or was the statement inaccurate? Since there are some real ME scholars in this forum, I'd love to hear some opinions on this.

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[Mithadan]

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Re: Did Denethor Know?

There is no indication that either Denethor or Boromir knew what Isuldur's Bane was although Denethor may have had suspicions. Boromir was sent to Rivendell in the hope of unraveling his cryptic dream and possibly to seek assistance in the upcoming war.

--Mithadan--
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were kindled clear, and waxing bright
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above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

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Re: Did Denethor Know?

I always thought that Denethor might have known.
And, wasn't Faramir supposed to go to Rivendell and then Boromir insisted he'd go, because he's the oldest???

Get you gone and fly, for here is a fire that shall consume you, and all evil things.</p>

[lindil]

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Re: Did Denethor Know?

There are a few related thoughts on this in the Boromir's tears thread [rather recent] and an Older one titled somethng like &quot;Denethor, Faramir and Aragorn&quot;About a month or so old.






Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Lady Eowyn]

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Re: Did Denethor Know?

I also thought Denethor might know, I mean he had the Palantir. Maybe he even read some scripts that Isildur had written, who knows.
Maybe that's why he wanted to send Faramir because he felt like he's the better one to send, being not such a hothead as Boromir??

And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom</p>

[Sharkû]

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Re: Did Denethor Know?

For me it seems likely that Denethor sent Boromir to Rivendell for no other reason than his already existent mistrust in Faramir, whom he suspicioned to be under the influence of Gandalf and the northern usurper Aragorn.

And I doubt that the Palantír provided Denethor the information that Isildur's Bane was the Ring. After all, Sauron's influence on the Minas Tirith-Palantír was heavy; by all means the Lidless Eyes would have tried to deny Denethor the chance to get the Ring from Rivendell to Minas Tirith by a son of him.

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[Gilthalion]

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Re: Did Denethor Know?

I don't have the text in front of me, but didn't Denethor say something to Faramir, before sending him out the last time, about how Boromir would have brought him the Ring (indirectly)?

But then, since Boromir insisted on going (I think over Denethor's wishes), then the notion that he was sending Boromir to get the Ring falls apart.

The clues were there, but I don't think he put it together.

Interesting that Boromir DID have the dream once, indicating some grace from the Valar (though Faramir had the dream first and more often).

Denethor never did. Perhaps he even came to resent the Valar for this dream that bereaved him of his favorite son and served to further drive his other son away.

Denethor did not want to be the Steward under the King, even if that were the will of Eru, as a direct implication of the dream given his sons.

Though the reality of this supernatural phenomenon was clear to him, and the hope it represented came from the Holy West, he rejected it in favor of his own counsels of Pride, though he knew that way led only to despair...

No wonder his mind broke.

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Re: Did Denethor Know?

Boromir said at the Council of Elrond that he came to seek the answer of a riddle. Although we know that later he falls to the temptation of the Ring, I don't ever remember him telling a direct lie. I think he did go to Imladris to seek the answer to the rhyme, not simply to steal the Ring or take it by force. Later on, however, when Denethor believes the war to be already lost and Isuldur's Bane to be the only hope of victory for Gondor, he finds a bleak comfort in the thought that Boromir would have brought him the Ring.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000326>celebria n13</A> at: 4/2/01 5:46:14 pm

[Meron]

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Re: Did Denethor Know?

I agree that Boromir did not know what Isildur's Bane was until it was revealed to him in Rivendell. I'm still on the fence as to whether Denethor did, as I've seen no &quot;evidence&quot; that could support either theory (he did - he didn't) beyond a shadow of a doubt. Still, I lean toward believing that he did not. Don't know why, and I reserve the right to change my mind <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> . I appreciate the feedback -- a crystal snifter of miruvor to all for your kind responses!

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Re: Did Denethor Know?

Yam, miruvor!! Thanks for the treat!!

I believe too that Boromir had no clue what Isildurs Bane is. He just came to Rivendell to get the answer to the riddle.
And after reading Sharkus post I too believe that Denethor didn't know what Isildurs Bane is. At least not from the Palantir. I mean if Sauron knew the ring is in Rivendell it would take him about a second to send the Nazgul there to get the ring.

Get you gone and fly, for here is a fire that shall consume you, and all evil things.</p>

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did Denethor Know?

I simply think its out of the question to even consider that Denethor knew the one ring was found if even sauron did not know for so long a time.check out http://pub48.ezboard.com/bostinedhilOst~in~Edhil</a> the city of the Elves discussion boards

Thranduil: Sindarin Elf, King of the Silvan Elves in the north of Greenwood the Great (Mirkwood); Father of Legolas! </p>

[lindil]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Did Denethor Know?

While I am by no means convinced Denethor did know, herre are acouple of points which suggest he might have.

saruman could have tipped him off.

Denethor may well have kept tabs on what Gandalf and saruman were looking at in his/the royal library. If these books/scrolls were looked at so little they almost certainly were dusty. if they were then read, you have effected the dust. Then Denthor obviously having a large amount of natural curiosity, checks them out.

Denthor's level of paranoia may have been such that he believed Aragorn was coming w/ the ring
and that until Pippin's arrival w/ Gandalf he did not know the truth. When he finally did he was prob. furious w/ Gandalf.Although he can not have been expectd to be in on the decision since he had [ and other Stewards before him] ruled Gondor w/ no communications re: anything approaching policy w/ any other realm than Rohan. And even that was probably minimal in the days of Theoden's decline.

In Denethor's mind, all allies were to be doubted, due to either Gandlaf or Saruman's influence.

Saruman probably worked a number on Denethor's confidence in the '1/2 elves ,elves and wizards' who had been traditional allies of Gondor in the past. Denethor was probably to proud to ask real questions of Gandalf but would I believe had watched his movements [and sarumans] in the palantir.

I nshort Denthor kneew alot, knew there was sceming among the Northern Elves and Dunedain and that Gandalf was involved and that so was Thorongil/aragorn and that the heir of Isuldur's return [or his sword] to Gondor had been prohesied. This all seemed to drive him somewhat crazy, allies he could not control or daunt and of whom he was too proud to ask help of.

He is sort of the Turin of the LotR

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>