Tuor/Gondolin/Text (thread moved from private forum)

[Tar Elenion]

Page 2, change the period after "remained" to a comma

Page 21, note 18 gates of steel. Page 23 gates of iron refering to the gates of Gondolin.

Page 22 note 26, the Q&E statement does not have the Noldor as 'lithe' like the Sindar, the 'but' indicates a contrast between the Noldor and Sindar, i.e. the Sindar are lithe.
(This note also repeats itself)

Page 23 "[gilded images] of two trees, and [likeness] should perhaps be 'in the likeness of'

Page 29 change "arid brave" to "and brave"

Page 31 'none such delvers of earth and rock as the Noldor'. What about Dwarves?

Page 33 'the Eldar have called them Valaraukar', should likely be Noldor, as both Sindar and Noldor are Eldar.

Page 37 and note 103 perhaps rather than 'Penlod, tallest of the Noldor save Turgon', just say Penlod the Tall.

Page 37 Salgant alone riding should be deleted. It has already been established that the Gondolindrim ride.

Page 40, the fighting between the Moles and the Wing, dangerous as this equals Kinslaying.

Page 40 "Eldar and Noldor" is redundant.

Page 43 note 125 'And he drove them back', "he" should be changed, or clarified

Page 50 Salgant being "old". Perhaps remove.

Page 51 "whom the Eldar named Sorontar", "Eldar" should be changed. Noldor and Sindar are both Eldar.

Page 57 and note 194, Gil-galad being King of the Noldor at the Mouths of Sirion may lead to conflict with IDril, Tuor and Earendil, Elwing ruling there. Also Ereinion is still valid as a name of Gil-galad.

Page 58 'Quendi the Light-elves', change Quendi to Vanyar.

Page 58 Earendil being smaller than Men seems apt for removal.

[Maédhros]

I could have sworn that Aiwendil had responed to these clarifications made by Tar-E.

Page 22 note 26, the Q&E statement does not have the Noldor as 'lithe' like the Sindar, the 'but' indicates a contrast between the Noldor and Sindar, i.e. the Sindar are lithe.

I would propose:

[Yet] was Tuor taller than any that stood there{. Indeed} [though indeed] the {Gondothlim} [Gondolindrim] were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for {Melko} [Morgoth], but {small were} they [were] <QE strong and tall, but> {and} slender {and very lithe} .

Just deleting the and very lithe part.

Page 23 "[gilded images] of two trees, and [likeness] should perhaps be 'in the likeness of'

I really like this.

Page 31 'none such delvers of earth and rock as the Noldor'. What about Dwarves?

An excellent point.

Now there are none such delvers of earth or rock as the {Noldoli} [Noldor], [except for the dwarves] (and this {Melko} [Morgoth] knows), but in those places is the earth of a great hardness; and Tuor said:

Perhaps Aiwendil can come up with something better.

Page 37 Salgant alone riding should be deleted. It has already been established that the Gondolindrim ride.

They were dight with tassels of silver and tassels of gold, and a harp of silver shone in their blazonry upon a field of black; but {Salgant} [Talagand] bore one of gold, and he alone rode into battle of all the sons of the {Gondothlim} [Gondolindrim]{, and he was heavy and squat}.

I'm not sure why would we need to delete the part about Talagand riding, but what I would do is to remove the part in which he is heavy and squat, kind of goes against the description of the Ñoldor.

Page 40, the fighting between the Moles and the Wing, dangerous as this equals Kinslaying.

This is interesting, and you are right of course.
One solution that comes to my mind is to remove the references of the Moles in our account. As bad as those elves seemed to be, I don't think that in JRRT later writtings, those elves could have let Maeglin get away with that.

Now Tuor did this, though his valour leapt to the noise of war, that he might take farewell of Idril and {Eärendel} [Eärendil]; and speed them with a bodyguard down the secret way ere he returned himself to the battle throng to die if must be{: but he found a press of the Mole-folk about his door, and these were the grimmest and least good-hearted of folk that {Meglin} [Maeglin] might get in that city. Yet were they free {Noldoli} [Noldor] and under no spell of {Melko} [Morgoth]'s like their master, wherefore though for the lordship of {Meglin} [Maeglin] they aided not Idril, no more would they touch of his purpose despite all his curses}.
Now then {Meglin} [Maeglin] had Idril by the hair and sought to drag her to the battlements out of cruelty of heart, that she might see the fall of {Eärendel} [Eärendil] to the flames; but he was cumbered by that child, and she fought, alone as she was, like a tigress for all her beauty and slenderness. There he now struggles and delays amid oaths while that folk of the Wing draw nigh − and lo! Tuor gives a shout so great that the Orcs hear it afar and waver at the sound of it. Like a crash of tempest the guard of the Wing were amid the men of the Mole, and these were stricken asunder. When {Meglin} [Maeglin] saw this he would stab {Eärendel} [Eärendil] with a short knife he had; but that child bit his left hand, that his teeth sank in, and he staggered, and stabbed weakly, and the mail of the small coat turned the blade aside; and thereupon Tuor was upon him and his wrath was terrible to see. He seized {Meglin} [Maeglin] by that hand that held the knife and broke the arm with the wrench, and then taking him by the middle leapt with him upon the walls, and flung him far out. Great was the fall of his body, and it smote {Amon Gwareth} [Amon Gwared] three times ere it pitched in the midmost of the flames; and the name of {Meglin} [Maeglin] has gone out in shame from among [the ]Eldar {and {Noldoli} [Noldor]}.
{Then the warriors of the Mole being more numerous than those few of the Wing, and loyal to their lord, came at Tuor, and there were great blows, but no man might stand before the wrath of Tuor, and they were smitten and driven to fly into what dark holes they might, or flung from the walls.} Then Tuor and his men must get them to the battle of the Gate, for the noise of it has grown very great, and Tuor has it still in his heart that the city may stand; yet with Idril he left there Voronwë against his will and some other swordsmen to be a guard for her till he returned or might send tidings from the fray.

This has the virtue of eliminating the Kinslaying factor reserved to the sons of Fëanor.

Page 40 "Eldar and Noldor" is redundant.

You are right of course. Done in the previous point.

Page 43 note 125 'And he drove them back', "he" should be changed, or clarified

I think that you are correct.

There Tuor slew Othrod a lord of the Orcs cleaving his helm, and Balcmeg he hewed asunder, and Lug he smote with his axe that his limbs were cut from beneath him at the knee, but Ecthelion shore through two captains of the goblins at a sweep and cleft the head of Orcobal their chiefest champion to his teeth; and by reason of the great doughtiness of those two lords they came even unto the Balrogs. {Of those demons of power Ecthelion slew three} [And {he}[Echtelion] drove them back] , for the brightness of his sword cleft the iron of them and did hurt to their fire, and they writhed; yet of the leap of that axe Dramborleg that was swung by the hand of Tuor were they still more afraid,

Is this better.

Page 50 Salgant being "old". Perhaps remove.

I'm not sure that it has to go. What do the others think.

Page 51 "whom the Eldar named Sorontar", "Eldar" should be changed. Noldor and Sindar are both Eldar.

I don't get this.

Page 58 'Quendi the Light-elves', change Quendi to Vanyar.

Quite correct.

[Findegil]

Posted by Tar Elenion:

Page 31 'none such delvers of earth and rock as the Noldor'. What about Dwarves?

Clearly the dwarves are better in delving but to mention they here as an expectation seems not good for me. What have the dwarves to do with that passages at all? For me it seems better to restrict the meaning:

Now there are none such delvers of earth or rock [among the Elves] as the {Noldoli} [Noldor], (and this {Melko} [Morgoth] knows), but in those places is the earth of a great hardness; and Tuor said:

About Talagand: Riding did the Gondolindrim do, but did they ride into battle? And especially in this battle. We are talking about a street fight in a city with surly smooth paved streets. Of what worth would a cavalary be in that battle? As I see the situation in Gondolin there were very few horses in the city. The ways to aproche the city were to step for the dragons. I think they were stairs. Thus I think the horses were used only in the plain. That Talagand had one to ride was due to his haevieness. Thus I dont think we have remove anything here. The discription of the Noldor in Q&E is a generall typ-discription, exception from it were clearly possible. And clearly elves could be old even in the first age, so why not Talagand?

Posted by Tar Elenion:

Page 40, the fighting between the Moles and the Wing, dangerous as this equals Kinslaying.

That is clearly right, but eliminat the complet fight seems a bit out of picture. What did the house of the mole do during the battle when their leader was gone? And how did Meaglin explain that he had to leave them so short before a battle? I think that we should only skip any mentioning of potential slaying and let them be defeated into flight, when they tried to affeng thier dead leader:

Now Tuor did this, though his valour leapt to the noise of war, that he might take farewell of Idril and {Eärendel} [Eärendil]; and speed them with a bodyguard down the secret way ere he returned himself to the battle throng to die if must be: but he found a press of the Mole-folk about his door, and these were the grimmest and least good-hearted of folk that {Meglin} [Maeglin] might get in that city. Yet were they free {Noldoli} [Noldor] and under no spell of {Melko} [Morgoth]'s like their master, wherefore though for the lordship of {Meglin} [Maeglin] they aided not Idril, no more would they touch of his purpose despite all his curses.
Now then {Meglin} [Maeglin] had Idril by the hair and sought to drag her to the battlements out of cruelty of heart, that she might see the fall of {Eärendel} [Eärendil] to the flames; but he was cumbered by that child, and she fought, alone as she was, like a tigress for all her beauty and slenderness. There he now struggles and delays amid oaths while that folk of the Wing draw nigh − and lo! Tuor gives a shout so great that the Orcs hear it afar and waver at the sound of it. Like a crash of tempest the guard of the Wing were amid the men of the Mole, and these were stricken asunder. When {Meglin} [Maeglin] saw this he would stab {Eärendel} [Eärendil] with a short knife he had; but that child bit his left hand, that his teeth sank in, and he staggered, and stabbed weakly, and the mail of the small coat turned the blade aside; and thereupon Tuor was upon him and his wrath was terrible to see. He seized {Meglin} [Maeglin] by that hand that held the knife and broke the arm with the wrench, and then taking him by the middle leapt with him upon the walls, and flung him far out. Great was the fall of his body, and it smote {Amon Gwareth} [Amon Gwared] three times ere it pitched in the midmost of the flames; and the name of {Meglin} [Maeglin] has gone out in shame from among [Sindar]{Eldar} and {Noldoli} [Noldor].
Then the warriors of the Mole being more numerous than those few of the Wing, and loyal to their lord, came at Tuor, and there were great blows, but no man might stand before the wrath of Tuor, and they were smitten and driven to fly into what dark holes they might{, or flung from the walls}. Then Tuor and his men must get them to the battle of the Gate, for the noise of it has grown very great, and Tuor has it still in his heart that the city may stand; yet with Idril he left there Voronwë against his will and some other swordsmen to be a guard for her till he returned or might send tidings from the fray.

I alos changed here "Eldar and Noldoli" to "Sindar and Noldor". If Tolkien made a splited reference than we should go with that if we can.

Posted by Tar Elenion:

Page 51 "whom the Eldar named Sorontar", "Eldar" should be changed. Noldor and Sindar are both Eldar.

What Tar Elenion means is that Sorontar is the Quenya form of the name. Thus a reference to the Eldar is out of place. I suggets that

... whom the {Eldar}[Noldor] named Sorontar ...

would be okay.


With the other points I agree with what Maedhros suggested.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Quotes are from T-E except where noted.

Page 2, change the period after "remained" to a comma

Yes, this appears to just be a typo.

Page 21, note 18 gates of steel. Page 23 gates of iron refering to the gates of Gondolin.

"Gates of steel" is from Q30, so on page 23 "iron" ought to be changed to "steel".

Page 22 note 26, the Q&E statement does not have the Noldor as 'lithe' like the Sindar, the 'but' indicates a contrast between the Noldor and Sindar, i.e. the Sindar are lithe.

I've looked again at Q&E and I simply have to disagree with this. The whole sentence is aimed at establishing the similarity between the Noldor and Sindar, with a contrast only being introduced in the following sentence, referring to their eyes. I think by far the more natural reading is to take "lithe" as contrasting with "strong and tall".

I suppose if we want to be extremely cautious, we could delete "and very lithe" as Maedhros suggests, as this would make no statement one way or another and so agree with either reading.

Page 23 "[gilded images] of two trees, and [likeness] should perhaps be 'in the likeness of'

This sounds good.

Page 29 change "arid brave" to "and brave"

Another typo.

Page 31 'none such delvers of earth and rock as the Noldor'. What about Dwarves?

I like Findegil's suggestion:

Now there are none such delvers of earth or rock [among the Elves] as the {Noldoli} [Noldor], (and this {Melko} [Morgoth] knows), but in those places is the earth of a great hardness; and Tuor said:

Page 33 'the Eldar have called them Valaraukar', should likely be Noldor, as both Sindar and Noldor are Eldar.

Yes, it definitely should be Noldor.

Page 37 and note 103 perhaps rather than 'Penlod, tallest of the Noldor save Turgon', just say Penlod the Tall.

As I recall this was one of the last bits we struggled with. I do still think that "tallest of the Noldor save Turgon" sounds a little awkward - I suppose I'm now inclined to follow Tar-Elenion's suggestion.

Page 37 Salgant alone riding should be deleted. It has already been established that the Gondolindrim ride.

Maedhros wrote:

I'm not sure why would we need to delete the part about Talagand riding, but what I would do is to remove the part in which he is heavy and squat, kind of goes against the description of the Ñoldor.

If indeed the other Gondolindrim ride as well, then he cannot "alone" of "all the sons of the Gondolindrim" ride into battle. As for him being heavy and squat - I don't really see a need to delete it, though I do understand your doubt about it. I could go either way, I suppose.

Findegil wrote:

About Talagand: Riding did the Gondolindrim do, but did they ride into battle? And especially in this battle. We are talking about a street fight in a city with surly smooth paved streets. Of what worth would a cavalary be in that battle? As I see the situation in Gondolin there were very few horses in the city. The ways to aproche the city were to step for the dragons. I think they were stairs. Thus I think the horses were used only in the plain. That Talagand had one to ride was due to his haevieness. Thus I dont think we have remove anything here.

But the description of Talagand here has a sense of generality - it does not say that he alone rode into this battle (as it cannot, for this battle has not yet begun); it says that he alone rode into battle.

Forgive me if this is obvious, but where is it said that the Gondolindrim ride into battle?

Page 40, the fighting between the Moles and the Wing, dangerous as this equals Kinslaying.

I'm not entirely sure that having a few Elves die here would violate the First/Second/Third numbering of the kin-slayings (think about all the battles that come in between the first, second, third, fourth, and fifth battles of Beleriand). But to be safe, I think we should perhaps follow Findegil's suggestion, simply deleting "or flung from the walls".

Page 40 "Eldar and Noldor" is redundant.

I'd go with "Sindar and Noldor" to retain the distinction, as per Findegil's suggestion.

Page 43 note 125 'And he drove them back', "he" should be changed, or clarified

Very true. I'd simply go with "Ecthelion" as Maedhros suggests.

Page 50 Salgant being "old". Perhaps remove.

I don't see any need to.

Page 51 "whom the Eldar named Sorontar", "Eldar" should be changed. Noldor and Sindar are both Eldar.

Yes, this should be "Noldor".

Page 57 and note 194, Gil-galad being King of the Noldor at the Mouths of Sirion may lead to conflict with IDril, Tuor and Earendil, Elwing ruling there. Also Ereinion is still valid as a name of Gil-galad.

This has been extensively discussed elsewhere. As for Rodnor vs. Ereinion - I thought that we had adopted "Ereinion", in which case the text is simply a mistake.

Another note on this page - it had escaped me that we had placed:

All this have others in ancient stories
and songs unfolded, but say I further

. . . at the end of the fragment. This is simply bizarre. It ought to be deleted.

Page 58 'Quendi the Light-elves', change Quendi to Vanyar.

Yes.

Page 58 Earendil being smaller than Men seems apt for removal.

I don't see a need to remove it; it simply says that he is "smaller than most men". Hurin was short despite being of the tall house of Hador. Why can't Earendil be?

[Maédhros]

In response to Aiwendil's comments:

I suppose if we want to be extremely cautious, we could delete "and very lithe" as Maedhros suggests, as this would make no statement one way or another and so agree with either reading.

I guess that it is better to play it safe.

I too like Findegil's suggestion when dealing with the fact that the Ñoldor are the best of the Elves in the delving of rocks.

As I recall this was one of the last bits we struggled with. I do still think that "tallest of the Noldor save Turgon" sounds a little awkward - I suppose I'm now inclined to follow Tar-Elenion's suggestion.

What about you Findegil? I can go either way.

If indeed the other Gondolindrim ride as well, then he cannot "alone" of "all the sons of the Gondolindrim" ride into battle. As for him being heavy and squat - I don't really see a need to delete it, though I do understand your doubt about it. I could go either way, I suppose.

I get your point about him ridding into battle alone. As for Talagand being heavy and squat, it doesn't seem to me like the description of an elf.

I'm not entirely sure that having a few Elves die here would violate the First/Second/Third numbering of the kin-slayings (think about all the battles that come in between the first, second, third, fourth, and fifth battles of Beleriand). But to be safe, I think we should perhaps follow Findegil's suggestion, simply deleting "or flung from the walls".

I like Findegil's suggestion too. For me the problems with the elves dying is that in this particular case is that they are Gondolindrim vs. Gondolindrim. It would be a minor kinslaying to me.

I'm in agreement with the other points made by Aiwendil.

[Tar Elenion]

Aiwendil got my point about Salgant riding (which seemed to me as well a general statement). The description of the riders from the 7th Gate and the captains and chieftains being mounted in UT establishes that the Gondolindrim warriors did ride.
I don't recall a specific description of any of the Gondolindrim riding to any battle, but it would seem odd that there would be descriptions of their mounted warriors but they would not ride to battle in for example the Nirnaeth.

In my reading the "save it be old Salagant" sounds more like a physical description of his appearence (i.e. he looked like an old man), rather than just his age.

Some of the other things I disagree with from my own veiwpoint/perception (e.g. the small Earendil), but it really does not effect anything, so no real point in arguing it at this time.

I hope the original post was constructively helpful.

[Findegil]

Posted by Tar-Elenion:

I hope the original post was constructively helpful.

I am absultly sure that I speak for all, when I say that you can be sure that it was helpful and much apreciated.

Posted by Aiwendil:

As I recall this was one of the last bits we struggled with. I do still think that "tallest of the Noldor save Turgon" sounds a little awkward - I suppose I'm now inclined to follow Tar-Elenion's suggestion.

After some searching I found the discussions about the talliness of Penlod. The changes we made were done in two steps: we did at first by the suggestion of Aiwendil add the exception of Turgon, and when Máedhros later compiled the text he changed the original Gnomes (which was before changed to Noldor as regulary) to Gondolindrim since he thought of Argon. In review these things seemed all over specific. And in response to Tar Elenions suggestions I would go with Aiwendils old suggsetion 2:
Change to "tall among the Noldor". We're allowed to do this by our principles I think, since it's a minimal change.

Posted by Aiwendil:

I'm not entirely sure that having a few Elves die here would violate the First/Second/Third numbering of the kin-slayings (think about all the battles that come in between the first, second, third, fourth, and fifth battles of Beleriand).

Agreed. Especially in view of Turgon killing Eöl in the same way. But I still vote for the savest way and the elimination of ", or flung from the walls".

About Talagand riding: It is right that, the stayment sounds a bit more general, but on the other hand we are already at the eve of the battle. What is dicribed here is the mustering of the forces. But if 3 of 4 read the passage general than we must change it, even if we are never told of any other Gondolindrim riding into battle. What I would suggest is to specify it to this battle alone and not to delet the implicit critic that was imposed by the singelness of his riding. That would simlpy mean:

...; but [Talagand] bore one of gold, and he alone rode into that battle of all the sons of the Gondolindrim, and he was heavy and squat.

As you see I have included his heavieness and spuatness. As fare as I know he is a single example of an overwieghted efl. That this was not normal seems clear from what is side about the fëa controling höra of the elves, but still he discrieb as a enterly week person. So why should he not be fat. I also would like to point out that it is quiet diffrent to scip some special charachteristic from any elf, than to eliminate some charachteristic from the singel example that we have for this charachteristic.

One last point that has not been mentioned and which makes all this discussion a bit dubious for me: In this very limited discussion I have found by my research three points which were (as it seems) in the text that Tar Elenion comented on as we had some discussed before:
- "Penlod, tallest of the Noldor save Turgon" was at last discused by us as "Penlod, tallest of the Gondolindrim save Turgon"
- "... {Of those demons of power Ecthelion slew three} [And {he}[Echtelion] drove them back] , for the brightness ..." the exact self change we had already done once.
- "Another note on this page - it had escaped me that we had placed:
All this have others in ancient stories
and songs unfolded, but say I further
. . . at the end of the fragment. This is simply bizarre. It ought to be deleted."
This is really bizarre, because we did decide to delet the fragment completly in our last discussion (if my memory is right).

Since I missed to download this particular text when it was online for such a short time, it would be nice to know in what stat that text was. May be someone could e-mail it to me.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Tar Elenion wrote:

The description of the riders from the 7th Gate and the captains and chieftains being mounted in UT establishes that the Gondolindrim warriors did ride.

Ah, thanks. I suppose something must be done about it then.

Findegil proposed:

but [Talagand] bore one of gold, and he alone rode into that battle of all the sons of the Gondolindrim, and he was heavy and squat.

My only possible problem with this is, again, that the battle has not yet been joined, so "that" would seem to lack an antecedent. I suppose it may work, though; the enemy has already been seen and it is clear that a battle will occur.

Tar Elenion, did you have another alteration in mind for this bit?

Maedhros wrote:

As for Talagand being heavy and squat, it doesn't seem to me like the description of an elf.

It certainly does seem odd, but I don't think it's odd enough to warrant a change. I suppose, to be technical about this, we must ask whether there was some general change in Tolkien's conception of Elves after the Lost Tales which would invalidate the heavy and squat Talagand. I don't see any such change. I may be wrong.

Tar Elenion wrote:

In my reading the "save it be old Salagant" sounds more like a physical description of his appearence (i.e. he looked like an old man), rather than just his age.

Hmm . . . to me it does not suggest that he looked elderly. What do Maedhros and Findegil make of this point? The quote is:

but Earendil would not be borne in her arms, for he said: 'Mother Idril, thou art weary, and warriors in mail ride not among the Gondolindrim, save it be old Talagand!' and his mother laughed amid her sorrow; but Earendil said: 'Nay, where is Talagand?' - for Talagand had told him quaint tales or played drolleries with him at times, and Earendil had much laughter of the old Elf in those days when he came many a day to the house of Tuor, loving the good wine and fair repast he there received.

Findegil wrote:

But I still vote for the savest way and the elimination of ", or flung from the walls".

I agree.

And in response to Tar Elenions suggestions I would go with Aiwendils old suggsetion 2:
Change to "tall among the Noldor". We're allowed to do this by our principles I think, since it's a minimal change.

I could go with "tall among the Noldor" or "Penlod the Tall". The former retains the suggestion that he was unusually tall specifically among the Noldor; the latter is safer since it's a simple epithet instead of creative writing.

Tar Elenion wrote:

I hope the original post was constructively helpful.

Indeed it was. Thank you.

Findegil wrote:

May be someone could e-mail it to me.

What is your e-mail address?

[Tar Elenion]

Tar Elenion wrote:

In my reading the "save it be old Salagant" sounds more like a physical description of his appearence (i.e. he looked like an old man), rather than just his age.

Aiwendil wrote:

Hmm . . . to me it does not suggest that he looked elderly. What do Maedhros and Findegil make of this point? The quote is:

Quote:
but Earendil would not be borne in her arms, for he said: 'Mother Idril, thou art weary, and warriors in mail ride not among the Gondolindrim, save it be old Talagand!' and his mother laughed amid her sorrow; but Earendil said: 'Nay, where is Talagand?' - for Talagand had told him quaint tales or played drolleries with him at times, and Earendil had much laughter of the old Elf in those days when he came many a day to the house of Tuor, loving the good wine and fair repast he there received.

This seems (IMO) to indicate that Salgant was riding because he was 'old', and this would be determined by his appearence. I am not sure how to express my impression of the passage better than that. Actually the bolded part will need to be changed in any event since mailed warriors do ride (Ecthelion rides to meet Tuor in UT).

I did not have any particular change in mind. Juat wanted to bring it up.

[Findegil]

but Earendil would not be borne in her arms, for he said: 'Mother Idril, thou art weary, and warriors in mail ride not among the Gondolindrim, save it be old Talagand!' and his mother laughed amid her sorrow; but Earendil said: 'Nay, where is Talagand?' - for Talagand had told him quaint tales or played drolleries with him at times, and Earendil had much laughter of the old Elf in those days when he came many a day to the house of Tuor, loving the good wine and fair repast he there received.

The bold part has to be changed, that's clear.
About old Talagand, we hear a 7 year old boy (half a mortal by the way) talking about an elf that is clearly older than his mother. Thus I did not see any problem with the statment. It is right that the suggestions is that Talagand rides because of his age. But why not? From all we know Talagand could be one of the oldest elves. That would be about 5000 years, and we do not know how long the 3 cycles of elvish live are. Thus he could have a beard and lake the strenght of younger warriors. But again, Eärendil is 7 years old! Ask any 7 year old boy to tell you how old the director of his basic-school is. I have no doubts that the boy will tell you that he is an old man.

But it is possible that we will loose the complte passage. All I could find to amand the missing riding warriors is very riscy:

but Earendil would not be borne in her arms, for he said: 'Mother Idril, thou art weary, and as a warrior{s} among the Gondolindrim in mail I won't ride {not among the Gondolindrim, save it be}like old Talagand!' and his mother laughed amid her sorrow; but Earendil said: 'Nay, where is Talagand?' - for Talagand had told him quaint tales or played drolleries with him at times, and Earendil had much laughter of the old Elf in those days when he came many a day to the house of Tuor, loving the good wine and fair repast he there received.

If their was any change between the Elves of The Lost Tales and the time after The Lord of the Rings, than it would rather allow for an fat elf then forbid it.

Aiwendil wrote:

I could go with "tall among the Noldor" or "Penlod the Tall". The former retains the suggestion that he was unusually tall specifically among the Noldor; the latter is safer since it's a simple epithet instead of creative writing.

May be I was to short in my recollection of the sentence under discussion. It was originally:

There too were the folk of the Pillar and of the Toweer of Snow, and both these kindereds were marshalled Penlod, tallest of Gnomes

Thus, I can't see that "Penlod, tall{est of Gnomes}[among the Noldor]" more risky or inovative writting than producing an epithet.

Oh, sorry forgotten to put my address in: Ralf.Volles@gmx.de
or if you can remember it easier: Findegil@Tolkiens-Welt.de

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

While reading the text I will post anythink that is missing here.

Page 2:
§3: "... in the great hill of slain that the Orcs have raised ..." (Orcs is missing.)

§4: "..., and be drove away these evil folk into Hithlum, ..." must be "..., and he drove away these evil folk into Hithlum, ..."

last §: "..., but at last be was overwhelmed ..." must be "..., but at last he was overwhelmed ..."

Page 3:
§1: "... and at the least be was not straved, ..." must be "... and at the least he was not straved, ..."

Page4:
last but one §: "... then surely shall you come to him, withersoever yon turn." must be "... then surely shall you come to him, withersoever you turn."

Page 5:
§7: "... foam-crest flying in the wind. Then the channel, drowning it ..." must be "... foam-crest flying in the wind. Then the river was thrust back, and the incoming flood swept roaring up the channel, drowning it ..."

Page 6:
§2: "... for the sea drew him, and be was not willing ..." must be "... for the sea drew him, and he was not willing ..."

§5: "... but when be turned southward ..." must be "... but when he turned southward ..."

§7: "... across the miles of the sea, as be drew near to the ..." must be "... across the miles of the sea, as he drew near to the ..."

Page 7:
§6: "... and already a host of foes is come between thee and thy goal." the "thee" is missing.

§9: "That which your heart hath ever sought," answered Ulmo: "to find Turgon, ..." The double quote is missing.

Page 8:
§2: "... so valiant of the High Folk of the West. " must be "... so valiant of the High Folk of the West." (At the end a blank was added inside the double quote.)

§7: "... or liftes in hills of wrath that broke upon the Shadowy Isles," until remote..." The double quote after Isles, was originaly a footnote marker and must be deleted.

Page 9:
§8: "Remember that the last hope of the Noldor cometh from the Sea?" must be "Remember that the last hope of the Noldor cometh from the Sea?"

Page 13:
§2: "Death is all about us," and Tuor." must be ""Death is all about us," said Tuor."

Page 14:
§2 "... and under the cloak we may pass now with out more doubt." (The "h" in "with" is missing.)

last §: "They are the folk of Throndor, who dwelt once even on Thangorodrim {ere Morgoth grew so mighty, and} dwell {now} in the Mountains of Turgon {since the Fall of Fingilfin}." I did not check the old discussion, but what ever was intended, the form it took is not good. I would at least take the and and the koma back iton the passage. "They are the folk of Throndor, who dwelt once even on Thangorodrim{ ere Morgoth grew so mighty}, and dwell{ now} in the Mountains of Turgon{ since the Fall of Fingilfin}."

Page 15:
§1: "And if that be good or ill. you alone can say." must be "And if that be good or ill, you alone can say."

Page 16:
§4: "... and Tuor marvelled to see to beauty." must be "... and Tuor marvelled to see its beauty."

Page 19:
§3: "... and in coining to a high sward ..." must be "... and in coming to a high sward ..."


So fare for the moment. I will continue when ever I have time to read on. But it will become even harder since further on I will have to check some of our old discussions when I can not remember the outcome.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: In such times Antione is mostly missed. This check reading of this eaysiest part of the text toke me 4 hours. I hope desperatly that some one has the text in a editable form, because I couldn't copy out of the pdf-file. And if nobody has than we have to do Antione's work all over again.

[Maédhros]

I have chatted with Antoine regarding the project and although he hasn't posted for some time (not enough free time) he does keeps tabs on what we are doing on the project.
I'm sure that Antoine has been keeping up with all the little things that have been posted here.

[Findegil]

Oh, that's about Antoine is good news indeed!

Since I have taken a print of the text to my daly trainride I have read a bit father.
And now the problems become diffrent: less typos (or better "scanos" as they are clearly introduced by the scanning of the text) and more problems of meaning and fetches of forgotten things.

General: In some parts the double quotes were change to single quotes to indicate direct speach, but not in any case. Was there some reason for this or were some missed?

Page 21:
§ 2: "... and they came after a day's light march to the foot of the Hill ..." This phrase is out of place, I think, since we have just recorded that they were brought horses. We could add before the phrase "the distance of".

§3 "... Tuor in wonder and Voronwë in great joy that daring much he had both brought Tour hither in the will of Ulmo {...}." we must delet "both" because we also deleted the second reason for his joy.

Page 24:
§2: ""Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who {maketh}[makest] deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men[."] {...}<Q30 Tuor spoke ..." At least the underlined double quote is missing. but also I find the change from direct to indirect speach a bit hard here. I suggest to add "... knoweth the mind of Elves and Men[." Thus {...}<Q30 Tuor spoke ..."

Page 28:
Note 64: The first § of this not is out of place. As is also the § of the same not on the next side.

Page 31:
§4: "... but even to that fare distant pass, the Cleft of the Eagles in the southern mountains; ..." must be "... but even to that fare distant pass, the Cleft of the Eagles in the nothern mountains; ..."

§7: "... <Q30 Tidings {Turgon heard of} <QS77 were brought by> {Thorndor}[Thorondor] <QS77 Lord of the Eagles of the fall of Nargothrond.> {concerning} <QS77 and after of> the slaying of ..." the underlined fullstop must be a comma. In addition I think the fall of Nargothrond is out of time here. I don't think that the eagles needed more than 7 years to find out about the fall of Nargothrond. Thus we should delet that sentence: "... <Q30 Tidings {Turgon heard of} <QS77 were brought by> {Thorndor}[Thorondor] <QS77 Lord of the Eagles of> the slaying of ..."

Still §7: "... Yet these years are filled by {Melkor}[Morgoth] in ... from their place of bondage." This passage is also not very well placed. In the original text it follows Maeglins treachery, but here it goes ahad of it. Thus for which reason did Morgoth put the Noldor to even harder work? I would like only to move the the first part of the § and let the quoted sentenc were it was original (before the creation scene of the mechanical dragons). We have to change then "these years", but to that I will comment in my next passages which will deal with the dragons in generall as it seems.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Okay here comes the rest of my remarks (if I am not interupted while doing this post):

Page 34:
§2: I have commented on this in my last post. In the moment the complte § is deleted but I would rather delet only the first sentece and change the years to months:
"{Now the years fare by, and egged by Idril Tuor keepeth ever at his secret delving: but seeing that the leaguer of spies hath grown thinner Turgon dwelleth more at ease and in less fear. }Yet these years are filled by {Melko}[Morgoth] in the utmost ferment of labour, and all the thrall-folk of the Noldo[r] must dig unceasingly for metals while {Melko}[Morgoth] sitteth and deviseth fires and calleth flames and smokes to come from the lower heats, nor does he suffer any of the Noldo[r] to stray ever a foot from their place of bondage."

§3: This is the creation scene of the mechanical monsters. As the text stands it fits our porposal to change type 2 to animal firedragons. But the last conclusion of the discussion was to let all the created monsters be what they seemed to be and only implicit suggest that animal firedragons were in the Battle of Gondolin. Thus the § must be changed to:
"Then on a time {Melko}[Morgoth] assembled all his most cunning smiths and sorcerers, and of iron and flame they wrought a host of monsters such as have only at that time been seen and shall not again be till the Great End. Some were all of iron so cunningly linked that they might flow like slow rivers of metal or coil themselves around and above all obstacles before them, and those were filled in their innermost depths with the grimmest of Orcs with scimitars and spears; others of bronze and copper were given hearts and spirits of blazing fire, and they blasted all that stood before them with the terror of their snorting or trampled whatso escaped the ardour of their breath; yet others were creatures of pure flame that writhed like ropes of molten metal, and they brought to ruin whatever fabric they came nigh, and iron and stone melted before them and became as water, and {upon}[with] them {rode}[moved] the Balrogs {in hundreds}; and {these}[those dragons of fire] were the most dire of all those monsters which Melko[Morgoth] devised against Gondolin."

Page 35:
§3: "... ; and by reason of the folly of certain of the quarrymen, and yet more by reason of the loose words of certain among his tin to whom word was somewhat unwarily spoken by Tuor, he gathered a knowledge of the secret work and laid against that a plan of his own." must be "... and yet more by reason of the loose words of certain among his kin to whom word was somewhat unwarily spoken by Tuor, ..." but as fare as I could find the discussion ended with the proposal to skip Meaglins knowledge of the secret way following QS30. Thus leading to "...{; and by reason of the folly of certain of the quarrymen, and yet more by reason of the loose words of certain among his kin to whom word was somewhat unwarily spoken by Tuor, he gathered a knowledge of the secret work and laid against that a plan of his own}."

Page 36:
§1: "... and of these, dragons of many and dire shapes {were} new devised for the taking of the city." I am at a lose here. Why was this "were" skipt? Isn't it needed for garmatical reason?

§3: "... polished surfaces of their accoutre- ment." must be "... polished surfaces of their accoutrement."

Page 37:
last §: "... and exceedingly proud, b and he shouted ..." the underlined letter (in the pdf it looks like a thorn rune) must be delete.

Page 38:
§6: at the end of the § the double quote is missing.

Page 40:
§5: "... See before us the accursed ones who for ages have tormented the children of the {Noldoli}[Noldor], ..." Ages are a long time. We can either change it too years or centuries or we must include the elves captured in Cuivienen which would mean we had to change Noldoli to Elves.

Page 42:
§2: "Fearful too they were for that {slaughter}[victory of] Rog had done {amid}[to] the {Balrogs}[Balrog], ..." Is it corret to that some one had done a vitory to someone? If so we must change "victory to" to "victory that". But I don't think that is gramaticaly correct. In Addition, since no Balrog was killed we can stick to the plural here. I would change to: "Fearful too they were for that {slaughter}[victory that] Rog had done amid the Balrogs, ..."

Page 43:
§1: "... one of those brazen snakes heaves against the {western} [eastern] wall and a great mass of it shakes and falls ..." I have some time ago asked why this change from west to east was done, but the question got lost in the much more pressing theme of the mechanical monsters. But I still can't see any reason to change this. The whole battle is still as it was fought from north to south, only the Pass of the Eagles cleft is shifted.

Page 44:
§2: "... bore from that hattle Ecthelion ..." must be "... bore from that battle Ecthelion ..."

Page 45:
§2: "But now the men of {Melkor}[Morgoth] have assembled their forces, and seven dragons of fire are come with Orcs about them {and Balrogs upon them} down all the ways from {north, east, and west}[south, west, and east], seeking the Square of the King." The change of the directions is out dated I think. In addition the last Version of this passage I could find reads: "But now the men of {Melkor}[Morgoth] have assembled their forces, and seven dragons of fire are come with Orcs about them {and Balrogs upon them}[and a Balrog] down all the ways from north, east, and west, seeking the Square of the King." But we need not skip the plural of Balorgs. (When I think about it the number of seven type 3 dragons corrosponds very nicely to the 7 Balrogs proposed by Tolkien and left still alive by our edeting.) I would lean too: "But now the men of {Melkor}[Morgoth] have assembled their forces, and seven dragons of fire are come with Orcs[ and Balrogs] about them {and Balrogs upon them} down all the ways from north, east, and west, seeking the Square of the King."

Page 48, §7 & §8 & Page 54 §1:
Here it comes to the Way of Escape. Antoines version is undecided wether to have the Way of Escape openable or closed for ever. I searched the forum and couldn't find a vote or any other decision made. Thus we are still open to do with it as we want, if I have not missed some thing. As Lindil did, I lean to an openable Way of Escape.
In Addition I think we have forgotten to put the closing of the way into the text. It must be put in before the wedding of Tour and Idril since that took place after Húrin went from Angband. Thus I would put it as it is in Sil77:
Page 26:
§1 & §2:

§18 Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronwë wept; and Tuor sat by the great fountain of the king and its splashing recalled the music of the waves, and his soul was troubled by the conches of Ulmo and he would return down the waters of Sirion to the sea. But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would, [for Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake]. FG-TG-01{
§ 19} Then Tuor, for he was weary, and that place was fair, said yea; and hence cometh the abiding of Tuor in Gondolin.

§19a FG-TG-01.5 <Sil77 But in the warning of {the Vala he}[Ulmo Turgon] heard again the words that were spoken before the departing Noldor on the coast of Araman long ago; and the fear of treason was wakened in Turgon's heart. Therefore in that time the very entrance to the hidden door in the Encircling Mountains was caused to be blocked up; and thereafter none went ever forth from Gondolin on any errand of peace or war, while that city stood.>

§19b Of all Tuor's deeds among the Gondolindrim the tales tell not, but 'tis said that many a time would he have stolen thence, growing weary of the concourses of folk, and thinking of empty forest and fell or hearing afar the sea-music of Ulmo, had not his heart been filled with love for a woman of the Gondolindrim, {and she was} [Idril Celebrindal, the] {a} FG-TG-02 daughter of the king.

Page 51, §2 & Page 52 §1:
"... for there the path is narrow, and of the right or westerly hand a sheer wall rises ...
...
... The moon about that hour rose above the pass, and the.gloom somewhat lifted, for his pale light filtered into dark places; yet it lit not the path for the height of the walls. ..." Well, this was my own fault, when I suggsted the changes for the Eagles cleft. If the fugetives are going from south to the north a wall on their right hand must be east of them. The underlined period between the and gloom in the second passages must be a space. In addition it is interisting to observe that we have a nice oppotunity to korrekt an internal error of the text. Since the moon rises in the east the wall must be east of the path. Thus we will not change "right" to "left" but "westerly" to "easterly".

Page 54:
§2: "... but running clear again above the Pools of Twilight{, even ..." This does not fit the later geography were the Umboth Muilin were above the Falls of Sirion. I suppose we change it to: "... but running clear again above the [Land of Willows]{Pools of Twilight, even ..."

Page 55:
§2: "{Now the folk that had passed into the Eagles' Cleft and who saw the fall of Glorfindel had been nigh eight hundreds - a large wayfaring, yet was it a sad remnant of so fair and numerous a city.} But they who ..." Why was the first part deleted? The Reason given is chronology, but reduce the number of sick and wounded fugetivs from 800 to 548 it needed more time than we have between the attack at midsummer and the depature from Nan-Tathren in the next spring.

still §2: "Nor {Bablon, nor Ninwi, nor the towers of Trui, nor} all the many takings {of Rûm} that {is} greatest among Men, ..." I think we left out a verb in this half sentence. I suggset: "Nor {Bablon, nor Ninwi, nor the towers of Trui, nor} all the many takings {of Rûm} that {is}[were] greatest among Men, ..."

§3: (plain text, for better reading): "...; and fair among the Lothrim Eärendil grows in the Ilse of Sirion in the snow-white stone the house of his father, ..." I don't think that ws intended, I think at least the underlined "the" must go.

That's it. All the rest of the text belongs rather to the next chapter or is at least discussed thereunder.

Respectfully
Findegil