Of Men

[ArcusCalion]

This is the first draft of the chapter Of Men

Our basis text is that of Later Quenta Silamrillion given in HoME 11; page 173-175, based on the complete text given in HoME 5; pages 245-248. I have not tracked the changes from QS to LQ, but have taken them up silently into the text. Wherever the text is different from that this is marked by an editing mark.

The markings are:
OM-xx for any and all changes. There were not too many, so to give multiple kinds of markers seemed redundant.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information

OF MEN

§81. Thus the Valar sat now behind the mountains at peace, and all save Manwë and Ulmo dismissed the exiled Noldor from their thought; and having given light to Middle-earth they left it for long untended, and the lordship of Morgoth was uncontested save by the valor of the {Gnomes}[Noldor]. Most in mind Ulmo kept them, who gathered news of the earth through all the waters.
OM-01 <LT Now the {Eldar or Qendi}[Quendi] had the gift of speech direct from Ilúvatar, and it is but the sunderance of their fates that has altered {them}[their tongues] and made them unlike; yet is none so little changed as the tongue of the Dark Elves of {Palisor}[Endor]. Now the tale tells of a certain {fay}[Maia], and names him Tû the wizard, for he was more skilled in OM-02{magics}[enchantments] than any that have dwelt ever yet beyond the land of Valinor; and wandering about the world he found the Elves and he drew them to him and taught them many deep things, and he became as a mighty king among them, and their tales name him the Lord of Gloaming and all the OM-03{fairies}[Elves] of his realm Hisildi or the twilight people. Now the places about {Koivie-neni}[Cuiviénen] the Waters of Awakening are rugged and full of mighty rocks, and the stream that feeds that water falls therein down a deep cleft a pale and slender thread, but the issue of the dark lake was beneath the earth into many endless caverns falling ever more deeply into the bosom of the world. There was the dwelling of Tû the wizard, and fathomless hollow are those places, but their doors have long been sealed and none know now the entry.
There was a pallid light of blue and silver flickering ever, and many strange spirits fared in and out beside the numbers of the Elves. Now of those Elves there was one Nuin, and he was very wise, and he loved much to wander far abroad, for the eyes of the Hisildi were becoming exceeding keen, and they might follow very faint paths in those dim days. On a time did Nuin wander far to the east of {Palisor}[Endor], and few of his folk went with him, nor did Tû send them ever to those regions on his business, and strange tales were told concerning them; but now curiosity overcame Nuin, and journeying far he came to a strange and wonderful place the like of which he had not seen before. A mountainous wall rose up before him, and long time he sought a way thereover, till he came upon a passage, and it was very dark and narrow, piercing the great cliff and winding ever down.
Now daring greatly he followed this slender way, until suddenly the walls dropped upon either hand and he saw that he had found entrance to a great bowl set in a ring of unbroken hills whose compass he could not determine in the gloom. Suddenly about him them gushed the sweetest odors of the Earth — nor were more lovely fragrances ever upon the airs of Valinor, and he stood drinking in the scents with deep delight, and amid the fragrance of evening flowers came the deep odors that many pines loosen upon the midnight airs.
Suddenly afar off down in the dark woods that lay above the valley's bottom a nightingale sang, and others answered palely afar off, and Nuin well-nigh swooned at the loveliness of that dreaming place, and he knew that he had trespassed upon Murmenalda or the "Vale of Sleep", where it is ever the time of first quiet dark beneath young stars, and no wind blows.
Now did Nuin descend deeper into the vale, treading softly by reason of some unknown wonder that possessed him, and lo, beneath the trees he saw the warm dusk full of sleeping forms, and some were twined each in the other's arms, and some lay sleeping gently all alone, and Nuin stood and marveled, scarce breathing.
Then seized with a sudden fear he turned and stole from that hallowed place, and coming again by the passage through the mountain he sped back to the abode of Tû; and coming before that oldest of wizards he said unto him that he was new come from the Eastward Lands, and Tû was little pleased thereat; nor any the more when Nuin made an end of his tale, telling of all he there saw — "and methought," said he, "that all who slumbered there were children, yet was their stature that of the greatest of the Elves."
Then did Tû fall into fear of Manwë, nay even of Ilúvatar the Lord of All, and he said to Nuin <Outline A that the sleepers he had found were the new Children of Ilúvatar, and that they were waiting for light. He forbade any of the Elves to wake them or to visit those places, being frightened of the wrath of Ilúvatar; but despite this Nuin went there often and watched, sitting on a rock. Once he stumbled against a sleeper, who stirred but did not wake. At last, overcome by curiosity, he awakened two, named Ermon and Elmir. They were dumb and very much afraid, but he taught them much of the {Ilkorin}[Avarin] tongue, for which reason he is called Nuin Father of Speech. Then came the first dawn; and Ermon and Elmir alone of Men saw the first Sun rise in the West and come over to the OM-04 {Eastward Haven}[east].> OM-05<Outline D [Footnote: Men grew in stature, and gathered knowledge of the Dark-elves, but Tû faded before the Sun and hid in the bottomless caverns.]>
§82. OM-06[Thus,] at the first rising of the Sun above the earth the younger children of the world awoke in the land of Hildórien in the midmost parts of Middle-earth beyond the Great River and the Inner Sea, OM-07 {in regions which neither the Eldar nor the Avari have known}; for measured time had come upon earth, ....
§83. Of Men [Footnote....
§84. Not long had .... when every leaf is green.
OM-08 <GA 60 {Indeed we learn now in Eressëa from the Valar, through our kin that dwell still in Aman,}[However, it is now known] that after Dagor-nuin-Giliath Melkor was so long in assailing the Eldar with strength for he himself had departed from Angband, for the last time [save once]. Even as before at the awakening of the Quendi, his spies were watchful, and tidings soon came to him of the arising of Men. This seemed to him so great a matter that secretly under shadow he went forth into Middle-earth, leaving the command of the War to Sauron his lieutenant. Of his dealings with Men the Eldar knew naught at that time, and know little now, for neither the Valar nor Men have spoken to them clearly of these things.
$80. But that some darkness lay upon the hearts of Men (as the shadow of the kinslaying and the doom of Mandos lay upon the Noldor) the Eldar perceived clearly even in the fair folk of the Elf-friends that they first knew. To corrupt or destroy whatsoever arose new and fair was ever the chief desire of Morgoth; but as regards the Eldar, doubtless he had this purpose also in his errand: by fear and lies to make Men their foes, and bring them up out of the East against Beleriand. But this design was slow to ripen, and was never wholly achieved, for Men (it is said) were at first very few in number, whereas Morgoth grew afraid of the tidings of the growing power and union of the Eldar and came back to Angband, leaving behind at that time but few servants, and those of less might and cunning.>
§85. OM-09{But}[And] the dawn ... lesser folk of the divine race; or else, it is said, they are at times OM-10{re-born into their own children}[re-housed], and ....
§86. More frail were Men ...
§87. In after days, ... Mortal, {Earendel}[Eärendil] and Elwing, and Elrond OM-11 [and Elros] their child[ren].

OM-01:The story of the awakening of Men is never told more fully than in the Lost Tales fragment, and it would be a shame to leave it out, especially since it is largely not contradicted in any later version. There is room even for it to harmonize with the Tale of Adanel, which is itself said to be not necessarily true.
OM-02: as in other chapters, I change magic to enchantments, because the word magic has evil connotations for Tolkien.
OM-03: the LT word fairies almost always refers to the Elves.
OM-04: I removed the reference about the Haven of the Sun, as its validity in later myth is questionable.
OM-05: I included this as a footnote, since I could not figure out how to work it into the text, but I think it is necessary to include the information, as Tu needs to exit the story somehow.
OM-06: simply harmonizing the transition from LT to QS
OM-07: Because of the Lost Tales story, the Avari cannot say to have not known Hildorien. However, CT notes the impossibility of this assertion based on the geographic placing of Hildorien in the earlier part of the passage, so I figured it was not a contradiction or too risky of me to drop it.
OM-08: This insert from the Grey Annals describes the exodus of Melkor to the East to corrupt men as proof, and was not contradicted later on, so this seems the best place to include it.
OM-09: I changed "but" to "and" because with the intrusion of the Melkor story into the narrative, the relation between the former end of the last paragraph (when every leaf is green) to the beginning of this one (But the day oft..) is lost. The And is a smoother transition.
OM-10: Simply reconciling with the later version of elvish rebirth myth.
OM-11: adding in Elros.

The Lost Tales stuff is the most questionable part of the chapter, but I figured I'd throw it in, and let everyone decide what to do with it.

[Findegil]

Here also just a few general remarks:
Again Of Men and Dwarves should not be considered as unuseable, because part of it is considered for the Second Age. The overall idea behind the arangement is more or less chronological. Therefore what belongs here of that Essay should be included here.

The LT chapter about Murmenalda is beautyfull, but if it can be used? I am very much in doubt about that. Tû has for me a very dark implication. His fading before the sun, seems to imply some strong connection to Melkor and his dominion in Utumno, where we are told that the creatures that were brought into being could later on not stand the light of the sun (e.g. Orcs and Trolls). For me Tû is therefore one of Melkors agents that gave him an early warning of the awakening of Men, and allowed the story of Adanel to happen. Anyhow we have to be extremly caerful about the Tale of Adanel. Beacuse that is a much later source and even the slightes contradiction must be avoided.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

The Dwarves and Men essay would not add anything to this essay, only to the Coming of Men into the West. So in this thread I suppose that argument need not affect it.

In regards to the Mermenalda and Tu etc. I think that even with this story, the Tale of Adanel is not contradicted. Perhaps we may remove the part about the first Men being unabble to speak, since they may have heard the voice of Eru in their hearts.

[Findegil]

Beside some details that I will list later, I see three mayor elements in the additions from LT that we have to discuss:
1. Tû: What kind of being is he? LT says he is a ‘fay’, but that does not fit in the later work. LT names him ‘Tû the wizard’. That might be useable. When he hear about Nuin finding Murmenalda, he is reported to in ‘fear of Manwë, nay even of Ilúvatar the Lord of All’. Such knowledge in my opinion make him one of the Ainur. But being ‘more skilled in magic than any that have dwelt ever yet beyond the land of Valinor’? This must have included even in its old circumference in LT Melko and all his servants (the Balrogs ...). Sounds very strange to me. But Tolkien is especially in LT very free with his use of such superlatives. So we might change that one as well as the use of ‘fay’ earlier. So in the end if we include him we have to unspecific about what he is.
As said, before Tû’s connotation is for me that of a bad boy. Tolkien might not have been planed him as a servant of Melko, but to ‘draw the Elves to him’ to ‘become a mighty king among them’ and ‘send them ... on his business’ does not sound good for me. Teaching the Elves ‘many deep things’ could be seen neutral, but that the doors of Tû’s abode ‘have long been sealed and none know now the entry’ makes a farther sinister impression. Also the fact that ‘Tû faded before the sun and hid in his bottomless caverns’ doesn’t make for a more comfortable feeling about that character.
Overall I don’t see any forcing reason not to include Tû, but he is a difficult character, so I think we would need some good reason to include him.
2. Murmenalda: As we read in the The legend of the Awaking of the Quendi about the unbegotten elves that: ‘While their first bodies were being made from the 'flesh of Arda' the Quendi slept 'in the womb of the Earth', beneath the green sward, and awoke when they were full-grown.’ That sounds very much like to Murmenalda and the sleepers in that valley. So I would say yes Murmenalda and it description could be taken.
3. Nuin as an {Ilkorin}[Avari] to find the sleepers in Murmenalda: That one of the Elves coming upon these unbegotten Men while they sleep seems possible, but that Elves were companions of Men from the first awakening (or even woke a pair before their time)? How could that fit to the things that Andreth told Finrod [Athrabeth:

'This lore takes no account of you,' said Andreth, 'for we knew nothing of the Eldar. We considered only dying and not-dying. Of life as long as the world but no longer we had not heard; indeed not until now has it entered my mind.'
'To speak truly,' said Finrod, 'I had thought that this belief of yours, that ye too were not made for death, was but a dream of your pride, bred in envy of the Quendi, to equal or surpass them. Not so, you will say. Yet long ere ye came to this land, ye met other folk of the Quendi, and by some were befriended. Were ye not then already mortal? And did ye never speak with them concerning life and death? Though without any words they would soon discover your mortality, and ere long you would perceive that they did not die.'
'"Not so" I say indeed,' answered Andreth. 'We may have been mortal when first we met the Elves far away, or maybe we were not: our lore does not say, or at least none that I have learned. But already we had our lore, and needed none from the Elves: we knew that in our beginning we had been born never to die. And by that, my lord, we meant: born to life everlasting, without any shadow of any end.'

For me at least this makes clear that Nuin or any other Elves as immediate instructor of the Men after their awakening is out of question. And how could that ‘lore’ be developed without speech? So Nuin as the father of Speech is gone.
So what is left of the story in LT? Nuin coming to the Mumenalda and telling Tû about the sleepers. But Tû did know already about them, as he shied back from sending his people to these parts of Endor. Is this worth lifting into this chapter? I am in doubt.

A bit more details:
OM-01: I think the first sentence is not useable. Can we say that the Quendi ‘had the gift of speech direct from Ilúvatar’? When we read in the Story of their awakening that:[quote]Then they were so enamoured of their beauty that their desire for speech was immediately quickened and they began to 'think of words' to speak and sing in. ...
Now after a time, when they had dwelt together a little, and had devised many words, ...[/b]For me that is a clear contradiction.

The same here: ‘... yet is none so little changed as the tongue of the Dark Elves of {Palisor}[Endor].’ If we compare to Shiboleth:

It was, however, certainly the contact with Sindarin and the enlargement of their experience of linguistic change (especially the much swifter and more uncontrolled shifts observable in Middle-earth) that stimulated the studies of the linguistic lore-masters, and it was in Beleriand that theories concerning Primitive Eldarin and the interrelation of its known descendants were developed.

OM-02: In LT the fairies were not Elves. There seemed to be a difference between the Elves of Tû and his ‘many strange spirits [that] fared in and out’ of the dwelling of Tû. So I would take ‘spirits’ as a replacement for ‘fairies’.

Stature of sleepers:

"and methought," said he, "that all who slumbered there were children, yet was their stature that of the greatest of the Elves."

This is clearly out of place the later Legend. We have to change it. Elves were not smaller than Men in all the later writings.

Not important but as an aside note: ‘..., and he said to Nuin’ is the end of the addition nominated as from LT. You have missed a ‘>’ sign at this point. And the nomination could be more specific, so I did find the source easy, that might not be true for everybody. I think LT, Gilfano’s Tale is appropriate and the Outlines should also get an LT before, because there are other outlines all over HoME

‘At last, overcome by curiosity, he awakened two … Ermon and Elmir alone of’: As explained above at least this must go, since it is contradicted by the Athrabeth. That Men saw the first sun rise in the West might be used, but it is told only in slightly different words in the basic text §82.

OM-05: This is not a footnote in Outline D, so it should not be so in our editing. Maybe it must be put in a bit later, if it is to be text and not footnote. But what so ever ‘Men grew in stature’ should not be used. See above.

OM-06: I don’t think this change is not needed if Nuin waking Ermon and Elmir is gone.

OM-07: I am not happy with this change. What about:

OM-07 <GA 60 Indeed {we learn}the Elves have learned now in Eressëa from the Valar, through {our}their kin that dwell still in Aman, that after Dagor-nuin-Giliath …

OM-08: Agreed, but you missed one ‘Gnomes’ and one ‘Gods’ that §. And by the way this § does stay that ‘In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body’.

OM-09: Agreed.

OM-10: Agreed.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

To your three points:

1. I see the difficulty, and support the removal of the "most skilled in magic" portion, but I do not see the sinister connotation. Melian and Thingol drew elves to them and became mighty king and queen among them, even though she is a Maia, but it is not sinister remotely. To me, the fading before the sun bit simply suggests he is a Maia of Lorien who likes mists and twilight, not that he is evil. I feel that it would be good to include them, if only for the sake of fleshing out this part of the legendarium, since it is only very broadly sketched out. The Murmenalda description and the Cuivienen and Avari are all great images, and I think it would be a shame to lose them.

2. I am glad.

3. I had not noticed this, but you are of course right. I have edited the LT insertion accordingly.

OM-01: I see you are right. I will remove it. I will include an edited form of the whole insertion below.

OM-02: The word fairies is used to describe the elves as well, cf. Elwing the fairy. The sense that I got was that the Hisildi were the Avari of his realm.

The stature of the sleepers must be changed, agreed.

I have fixed this.

I have removed this section.

OM-05: I have inserted it at the end of the following paragraph. See below.

OM-06: agreed.

OM-07: Agreed

OM-08: I have fixed these, thanks for catching them.

Here is the edited version of the LT insert and the following paragraph.

OM-01 <LT GT {Now the {Eldar or Qendi}[Quendi] had the gift of speech direct from Ilúvatar, and it is but the sunderance of their fates that has altered {them}[their tongues] and made them unlike; yet is none so little changed as the tongue of the Dark Elves of {Palisor}[Endor].} Now the tale tells of a certain {fay}[Maia], and names him Tû the wizard{, for he was more skilled in OM-02{magics}[enchantments] than any that have dwelt ever yet beyond the land of Valinor}; and wandering about the world he found the {dun/dim Elves}[Dark-elves] and he drew them to him and taught them many deep things, and he became as a mighty king among them, and their tales name him the Lord of Gloaming and all the OM-03 {fairies}[Elves] of his realm Hisildi or the twilight people. Now the places about {Koivie-neni}[Cuiviénen] the Waters of Awakening are rugged and full of mighty rocks, and the stream that feeds that water falls therein down a deep cleft a pale and slender thread, but the issue of the dark lake was beneath the earth into many endless caverns falling ever more deeply into the bosom of the world. There was the dwelling of Tû the wizard, and fathomless hollow are those places, but their doors have long been sealed and none know now the entry.
There was a pallid light of blue and silver flickering ever, and many strange spirits fared in and out beside the numbers of the Elves. Now of those Elves there was one Nuin, and he was very wise, and he loved much to wander far abroad, for the eyes of the Hisildi were becoming exceeding keen, and they might follow very faint paths in those dim days. On a time did Nuin wander far to the east of {Palisor}[Endor], and few of his folk went with him, nor did Tû send them ever to those regions on his business, and strange tales were told concerning them; but now curiosity overcame Nuin, and journeying far he came to a strange and wonderful place the like of which he had not seen before. A mountainous wall rose up before him, and long time he sought a way thereover, till he came upon a passage, and it was very dark and narrow, piercing the great cliff and winding ever down.
Now daring greatly he followed this slender way, until suddenly the walls dropped upon either hand and he saw that he had found entrance to a great bowl set in a ring of unbroken hills whose compass he could not determine in the gloom. Suddenly about him them gushed the sweetest odors of the Earth — nor were more lovely fragrances ever upon the airs of Valinor, and he stood drinking in the scents with deep delight, and amid the fragrance of evening flowers came the deep odors that many pines loosen upon the midnight airs.
Suddenly afar off down in the dark woods that lay above the valley's bottom a nightingale sang, and others answered palely afar off, and Nuin well-nigh swooned at the loveliness of that dreaming place, and he knew that he had trespassed upon Murmenalda or the "Vale of Sleep", where it is ever the time of first quiet dark beneath young stars, and no wind blows.
Now did Nuin descend deeper into the vale, treading softly by reason of some unknown wonder that possessed him, and lo, beneath the trees he saw the warm dusk full of sleeping forms, and some were twined each in the other's arms, and some lay sleeping gently all alone, and Nuin stood and marveled, scarce breathing.
Then seized with a sudden fear he turned and stole from that hallowed place, and coming again by the passage through the mountain he sped back to the abode of Tû; and coming before that oldest of wizards he said unto him that he was new come from the Eastward Lands, and Tû was little pleased thereat; nor any the more when Nuin made an end of his tale, telling of all he there saw[.] OM-03.2 {— "and methought," said he, "that all who slumbered there were children, yet was their stature that of the greatest of the Elves."}
Then did Tû fall into fear of Manwë, nay even of Ilúvatar the Lord of All, and he said to Nuin> OM-03.5 <LT GT: Outline A that the sleepers he had found were the new Children of Ilúvatar, and that they were waiting for light. He forbade any of the Elves to wake them or to visit those places, being frightened of the wrath of Ilúvatar {but despite this Nuin went there often and watched, sitting on a rock. Once he stumbled against a sleeper, who stirred but did not wake. At last, overcome by curiosity, he awakened two, named Ermon and Elmir. They were dumb and very much afraid, but he taught them much of the {Ilkorin}[Avarin] tongue, for which reason he is called Nuin Father of Speech. Then came the first dawn; and Ermon and Elmir alone of Men saw the first Sun rise in the West and come over to the OM-04{Eastward Haven}[east].}>
§82. OM-06 At the first rising of the Sun above the earth the younger children of the world awoke in the land of Hildórien in the midmost parts of Middle-earth beyond the Great River and the Inner Sea, OM-07 in regions which neither the Eldar nor the Avari have known; for measured time had come upon earth, and the first of days, and the long awaiting was at an end. Thereafter the vigor of the Quendi that remained in the inner lands was lessened, and their waning was begun; and the air of Middle-earth became heavy with the breath of growth and mortality. For there was great growth in that time beneath the new Sun, and the midmost lands of Middle-earth were clothed in a sudden riot of forest and they were rich with leaves, and life teemed upon the soil and in the waters. But the first sun arose in the West, and the opening eyes of Men were turned thitherward, and their feet as they wandered over earth for the most part strayed that way. OM-05 <GT Outline D {Men grew in stature, and gathered knowledge of the Dark-elves, but} [But] Tû faded before the Sun and hid in the bottomless caverns.>

After the last paragraph here the chapter continues as in the previous draft.

[Findegil]

Sorry but reading your new editing, I found what kicks out Nuin for good: 'in regions which neither the Eldar nor the Avari have known'. Since this from the later source it dinies that any Avari had found Murmenalda. So if we want to keep the description, we must make Nuin some thing else. I would simply make him one of Tû's people.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

agreed

[Findegil]

After thinking for a long time about the addition from LT I made up me mind that we might even take more from that same source. The Outlines A to D of the LT give after the awaking of Men a description of the Battle of Palisor between Dark-elves and Fankil an agent of Melkor who is leading a host of Goblins and Dwarves. Men in this Battle fought on both sides. Of course we must ask if that is a valid information in the later story frame. And I think it is. My reason for this is the following: That there was fighting of Men against Men is stated in The Tale of Adanel. That the Renegades (the Men that relapsed from the worship of Melkor) had conflicts with some Dwarves that were in some kind of alliance with Melkor is stated in Of Dwarves and Men. That the Renegades had dealings with Dark-elves is in all versions of the Silmarillion reported as a fact known through the influence that the Dark-elvish speech had have on that of the Folk of Beor. That means all three ingredients of the Battle of Palisor are attested in later (even very late) sources. Even so they are attested independently and not all together, this makes it highly probable for me at least, that the conflict described in the Battle of Palisor never changed in Tolkiens vision of Middle-earth.

So this is my proposal for the text:

15 Of Men
§81 Thus the Valar sat now behind the mountains at peace, … who gathered news of the earth through all the waters.
OM-01 <LT, Gilfano’s Tale Now the tale tells of a certain {fay}[Tû], and names him Tû the wizard, for he was OM-01.5{more }skilled in OM-02{magics}[enchantments]{ than any that have dwelt ever yet beyond the land of Valinor}; and wandering about the world he found the Elves … all the OM-03{fairies}[Elves] of his realm Hisildi or the twilight people. … none know now the entry.
There was a pallid light of blue and silver flickering ever, and many strange spirits fared in and out beside the {[?}numbers{]} of the Elves. Now of OM-03.2{those Elves}[Tû’s servants] there was one Nuin, and he was very wise, and he loved much to wander far abroad, for {the}his eyes OM-03.3{of the Hisildi }were becoming exceeding keen, and {they}he might follow very faint paths in those dim days. … piercing the great cliff and winding ever down.
Now daring greatly he … upon the midnight airs.
Suddenly afar off down … no wind blows.
Now did Nuin descend deeper into the vale, … scarce breathing.
Then seized with a sudden fear … telling of all he there saw — "and methought," said he, "that all who slumbered there were childrenOM-03.4{, yet was their stature that of the greatest of the Elves}."
Then did Tû fall into fear of Manwë, nay even of Ilúvatar the Lord of All, and he said to Nuin >OM-03.5<LT, Outline A that the sleepers he had found were the new Children of Ilúvatar, and that they were waiting for light. He forbade any of the Elves to wake them or to visit those places, being frightened of the wrath of Ilúvatar; but despite this Nuin went there often and watched, sitting on a rock. Once he stumbled against a sleeper, who stirred but did not wake. OM-03.6{ At last, overcome by curiosity, he awakened two, named Ermon and Elmir. They were dumb and very much afraid, but he taught them much of the {Ilkorin}[Avarin] tongue, for which reason he is called Nuin Father of Speech. Then came the first dawn; and Ermon and Elmir alone of Men saw the first Sun rise in the West and come over to the OM-04{Eastward Haven}[east].}> {OM-05 <LT, Outline D [Footnote to the text: Men grew in stature, and gathered knowledge of the Dark-elves, but Tû faded before the Sun and hid in the bottomless caverns.]>}
§82 OM-06 Thus, at the first rising of the Sun above the earth the younger children of the world awoke in the land of Hildórien … life teemed upon the soil and in the waters. OM-06.1 <LT, Outline D The hosts of Men came forth as sleepy children, raising a dumb clamour at the Sun; they followed it westward when it returned, and were grievously afraid of the first NightOM-06.2{. Nuin and Ermon and Elmir taught them speech.
Men grew in stature, and gathered knowledge of the Dark Elves,'}, but Tû faded before the Sun and hid in the bottomless caverns. Men dwelt in the centre of the world and spread thence in all directionsOM-06.3{; and a very great age passed}.> But the first sun arose in the West, and the opening eyes of Men were turned thitherward, and their feet as they wandered over earth for the most part strayed that way.
§83 Of Men [Footnote to the text: Atani they were called in Valinor, but the Eldar called them {Hildi[}Hildor{]}, the followers; whence Hildórien, the place of the arising of the {Hildi}[Hildor], is named. And many other names they gave to them: Engwar the sickly, and Firyar the mortals; and named them the Usurpers, the Strangers, and the Inscrutable, the Self-cursed, the Heavy-handed, the Night-fearers, the Children of the Sun] little is told in these tales, … but they understood not the messages. OM-06.4{Yet it is told that ere long they met the Dark-elves … the Valar but as a rumor and a distant name.}
§84 Not long had Morgoth then come back into the Middle earth, and his power went not far abroad, … when every leaf is green.
OM-06.5 <LT, Outline D Here it {is}must be told{ at the beginning of the narrative} that {Melko}[Melkor]'s {Úvanimor}[Úmaiar] had escaped when the {Gods}[Valar] broke the Fortress of the North, and were wandering in the forests{;}and Fankil servant of {Melko}[Melkor] dwelt uncaptured in the world.>
OM-07 <GA 60 Indeed {we learn}the Elves have learned now in Eressëa from the Valar, through {our}their kin that dwell still in Aman, that after Dagor-nuin-Giliath Melkor was so long in assailing the Eldar with strength for he himself had departed from Angband, for the last time. Even as before at the awakening of the Quendi, … for neither the Valar nor Men have spoken to them clearly of these things.
§80 But that some darkness lay upon the hearts of Men … few servants, and those of less might and cunning.>
OM-07.1 <moved from above Yet it is told that ere long {they}Men met the Dark-elves in many places, and were befriended by them. And the Dark-elves taught them speech, and many other things; and Men became the companions and disciples in their childhood of these ancient folk, wanderers of the Elf-race who had never found the paths to Valinor, and knew of the Valar but as a rumor and a distant name.>
OM-07.2 <LT, Outline D But Fankil with the Dwarves and {Goblins}[Orcs] went among Men, and bred estrangement between them and the Elves; and many Men aided the Dwarves. The folk of ErmonOM-07.3<LT, Outline A and Elmir> alone stood by the {fairies}[Elves] in the OM-07.4{first }war of {Goblins}[Orcs] and Elves {(Goblins is here an emendation from Dwarves, and that from Men)}, which is called the War of {Palisor}[Endor]. Nuin died at the hands of the {Goblins}[Orcs] through the treachery of Men. Many kinderds of Men were driven to the eastern deserts and the southern forests, whence came dark OM-07.5{ and savage peoples.},<LT, Outline A wild and savage tribes{'}, worshipping {Fangli}[Fankil] and {Melko}[Melkor]. Thereafter{ (in A only)} {Palisor}[Endor] was possessed by {'}{Fangli}[Fankil] and his hosts of {Nauglath}[Naugrim] (or Dwarves){'}.> The hosts of Tareg the {Ilkorin}[Dark-elf] marched North-west hearing a rumour of the {Gnomes}[Exiles]; and many of the lost kindreds joined him.>
§85 OM-08{But}So the dawn is brief and day full often belies its promise; … Thence they are recalled at length to freedom, either as spirits, taking form according to their own thought, as the lesser folk of the divine race; or else, it is said, they are at times OM-09{re-born into their own children}[re-housed], and the ancient wisdom of their folk does not perish or grow less.
§86 More frail were Men, … nor was all foretold in the Music of the Ainur.
§87 In after days, when because of the triumph of Morgoth Elves and Men became estranged, … And in the glory and beauty of the Elves, and in their fate, full share had the fair offspring of Elf and Mortal, {Earendel}[Eärendil] and Elwing, and Elrond OM-10 [and Elros] their {child}children.

The changes introduce or adapted by me:
OM-01.5 & OM-02: the superlative ‘more … then’ I removed. Very similar things were said about Melian therefore it might be saver to remove this.

OM-03.2: This was already discussed. Nuin can not be a Dark-elf if the Elves never had known about the area where Men awoke.

OM-03.3: Again Nuin is no Elf therefore what is said here must be reduced to his abilities, not that of all Avari.

OM-03.4: This was as well already discussed: Men and Elves were of the same height.

OM-03.5: I introduce this marker to indicate were we change from full narrative to outline.

OM-03.6: This change was discussed above: The Tale of Adanel denies the possibility of Men being instructed in the very first beginning by anybody.

OM-06.1: The last bit of the Murmealda story.

OM-06.2: Ermon and Elmir together with Nuin as teachers of the Elves are to be removed.

OM-06.3: A very great Age does not fit any later chronology.

OM-06.4: Even so Andreth does say that she does not know if Men meet Elves before they had their affair with Morgoth, from the Tale of Adanel that is my clear impression. Therefore I shifted this passage to a later place in the chapter (see OM-07.1).

OM-06.5: The intro of Fankil and the Úmaiar from Outline D which seems needed and for which I couldn’t find a better place.

OM-07: We already discussed this lighter editing.

OM-07.1: Here I placed the meeting with the Dark-elves. It is now after Melkor dealings with Men.

OM-07.2: This is now the Battle of Palisor. My Reason to introduce it I already explained above. The intro of ‘but’ makes him acting in a kind of counter action to the friendship of Men and Elves, which form was anyway implicit hinted at.

OM-07.3: If we use Ermon than I see no good reason not to use Elmir as well.

OM-07.4: In the later time line Dagor-nuin-Giliath is already over. So the Battle of Palisor can not be the first war of Orcs and Elves.

OM-07.5: Only Outline A does provide the detail that the Men of East and South worshipped Fankil and Melkor, and that Fankil possessed Palisor after the Battle. It might be argued that this last detail was skipped deliberately, but that the host of Tareg left Palisor with many of the lost kindreds is said in D, so it seems quiet natural that Fankil and his Dwarves in the end ruled in Palisor.

OM-08: With all these text introduced the ‘But’ is no longer okay.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

OM-06.3: This whole sentence should be deleted, because the whole people of Men were in one place when Melkor appears to them in the Tale of Adanel, so they cannot spread across the earth.

OM-07.2: I would add an "evil" before the "Dwarves" at the first occurrence. Dwarves are not inherently evil in later versions, so that these dwarves are evil is a departure from the norm, and should be noted.

As a general note I noticed that the base text of the chapter uses "Morgoth" whereas the Grey Annals and Lost Tales insertions use "Melkor." We should standardize as "Morgoth" throughout.

[Findegil]

OM-06.3: Okay, but then I think we have to skip the next as well. And probably it makes sense to put them in later:

... life teemed upon the soil and in the waters. OM-06.1 <LT, Outline D The hosts of Men came forth as sleepy children, raising a dumb clamour at the Sun; they followed it westward when it returned, and were grievously afraid of the first NightOM-06.2{. Nuin and Ermon and Elmir taught them speech.
Men grew in stature, and gathered knowledge of the Dark Elves,'}, but Tû faded before the Sun and hid in the bottomless caverns. Men dwelt in the centre of the world and spread thence in all directions; and a very great age passed.> OM-06.3{But the first sun arose in the West, and the opening eyes of Men were turned thitherward, and their feet as they wandered over earth for the most part strayed that way.}
§83 Of Men …
…
...
§80 But that some darkness lay upon the hearts of Men … leaving behind at that time but few servants, and those of less might and cunning.>
OM-07.05 <LT, Outline D Men dwelt in the centre of the world and spread thence in all directionsOM-07.07{; and a very great age passed}.> OM-07.08 <moved from above But the first sun arose in the West, and the opening eyes of Men were turned thitherward, and their feet as they wandered over earth for the most part strayed that way.>
OM-07.1 <moved from above Yet it is told that ere long they met the Dark-elves in many places, and were befriended by them. …

OM-07.25: To add ‘evil’ seems too much of a liberty for me. I would rather skip the ‘the’ before Dwarves, so that not all Dwarves are specified here.

Melkor/Morgoth: In the insert of OM-06.5 I used Melkor deliberately since we are here recording past events from the time of Utumno. And also in the passage inserted under OM-07.5. Nobaody would worship ‘the Black Foe’ therefore Melkor is the batter name in this specific case. But for the inserts from GA I agree to change it to Morogth.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Isn't the Tale of Adanel just that - a tale, vaguely remembered among the descendants of the original Men?

So why put so much weight to it?


I'm saying this because I don't think we should delete the references to Nuin awakening Ermon and Elmir, nor them teaching the other Men language.


Also, a fun fact - if Tu (being a fay in the BoLT) is a Maia, that would fit nicely with this statement in the NoME:

Men awake VY 1075 (and are hidden from other contacts by Melkor)? But Eru independently of Manwë sends messages and messengers to them (and the Elves). That is about 10,800 Sun-years after Elves [awoke] and 15 VYs (or 2,160 SYs) before the attack of the Valar. The Valar do not discover Men (whose centre was far south of Utumno*), and think the removal of Melkor probably sufficient protection: they are not supposed to "meddle" with Men, but only guard them so that they can develop as they should. But they are anxious, especially after they discover that Melkor had already affected the Quendi; and are aware that by no means all of Melkor’s evil associates and forces had been destroyed or captured. They are therefore always sending out emissaries and explorers to Middle-earth during the Captivity of Melkor.

- The Nature of Middle-earth, 'The Awaking of the Quendi', Text A, p. 39 (dating from c. 1959)


Of course, in this text Tolkien had a completely different conception of the timeline of Arda, as well as the duration of the Valian years - but that is in and of itself irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make: which is that Eru sent actual messengers to the OG Men from the very beginning!


*There is also an interesting note to the text by Carl Hostetter which deals with the location of Men's original homeland far south of Utumno, which goes:

Far south and, presumably, far east of Utumno. At one point Tolkien baldly stated that: "The Great Central Land, Europe and Asia, was first inhabited. Men awoke in Mesopotamia" (IX:410).

The reference to the 'IX:410' refers to this passage in Sauron Defeated, 'The Drowning of Anadune', Note 2, p. 410:

"The Great Central Land, Europe and Asia, was first inhabited. Men awoke in Mesopotamia. Their fates as they spread were very various. But the Enkeladim withdrew ever west."

'Enkeladim' here meaning 'Elves'.

[Findegil]

Most of the texts we work with are just tales! For me The Tale of Adanel and the philosophy of Athrabeth would no longer work at all, if Men would have some dealings with other Ainur or incarnates. The Voice is asking them to learn from expirence not from others. And the interpretation of the gift as presented in the Athrabeth seems to me only possible when you can't compare it to the longvety of the Elves or imortility of the Ainur.

Therefore I think Nuin can't wacke Ermon and Elmir and has to leave the newly awoken Men to sameself for a time.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Most of the texts we work with are just tales! For me The Table of Adanel and the philosophy of Athrabeth would no longer work at all, if Men would have some dealings with other Ainur or incarnates. The Voice is asking them to learn from expirence not from others. And the interpretation of the gift as presented in the Athrabeth seems to me only possible when you can't compare it to the longvety of the Elves or imortility of the Ainur.

Therefore I think Nuin can't wacke Ermon and Elmir an dhas to leave the newly awoken Men to same self for a time.

Respectfully
Findegil

The text in the NoME doesn't necessarily mean that the original Men had messengers sent to them immediately after their Awakening (especially since the said text outright states that Eru sent messages to the original Men too).


Also, Men have notoriously unreliable memories - especially across multiple generations!

[Findegil]

Sorry, Arvegil145, I lost your line of thought. What is you intention in this case? Or more concrete, what is your proposed change to our text?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Sorry, Arvegil145, I lost your line of thought. What is you intention in this case? Or more concrete, what is your proposed change to our text?

Respectfully
Findegil

I'm proposing that we keep Nuin's awakening of Ermon and Elmir, as well as Nuin's teaching of language to Men, etc. - basically, almost everything that's been cut out from 'Gilfanon's Tale'.

And since the ancient history of Men is murky at best (obviously), I don't see any problems with us keeping multiple different accounts of their ancestral past (ala the Tale of Adanel).

Moreover, I don't even see too much contradiction between these accounts, as per my previous reply - but that doesn't actually matter IMO.



Tl;dr - when it comes to origins of Men, I have zero problems with including multiple contradictory accounts (even though I believe they're not as contradictory as they appear to be).

[Findegil]

Here is the passage from the Athrabeth does for me denie an early contact of ELves or Aniur with Men:

'This lore takes no account of you,' said Andreth, 'for we knew nothing of the Eldar. We considered only dying and not-dying. Of life as long as the world but no longer we had not heard; indeed not until now has it entered my mind.'
'To speak truly,' said Finrod, 'I had thought that this belief of yours, that ye too were not made for death, was but a dream of your pride, bred in envy of the Quendi, to equal or surpass them. Not so, you will say. Yet long ere ye came to this land, ye met other folk of the Quendi, and by some were befriended. Were ye not then already mortal? And did ye never speak with them concerning life and death? Though without any words they would soon discover your mortality, and ere long you would perceive that they did not die.'
'"Not so" I say indeed,' answered Andreth. 'We may have been mortal when first we met the Elves far away, or maybe we were not: our lore does not say, or at least none that I have learned. But already we had our lore, and needed none from the Elves: we knew that in our beginning we had been born never to die. And by that, my lord, we meant: born to life everlasting, without any shadow of any end.'

Andreth speaks here was a sureness not shown in many passages: When Men first meet Elves they had already gained 'their lore' about thier true nature in thier beginning. To develop such a 'lore' you need speech. Therefore Nuin as father of speech is impossible.

Anyhow, to take Nuin as one of the messangers sent by Eru himself from the NoME text would in itself deny that he would wake Ermon and Elmir before the appointed time.

To take anything from Gilfanos Tale is a stretch in itself. I think we have gone that way as far as we can.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Here is the passage from the Athrabeth does for me denie an early contact of ELves or Aniur with Men:Andreth speaks here was a sureness not shown in many passages: When Men first meet Elves they had already gained 'their lore' about thier true nature in thier beginning. To develop such a 'lore' you need speech. Therefore Nuin as father of speech is impossible.

Anyhow, to take Nuin as one of the messangers sent by Eru himself from the NoME text would in itself deny that he would wake Ermon and Elmir before the appointed time.

To take anything from Gilfanos Tale is a stretch in itself. I think we have gone that way as far as we can.

Respectfully
Findegil

I guess you can look at Nuin's awakening of Ermon and Elmir as an act of 'providence' in itself - especially since the Elves were according to Iluvatar's original plan meant to stay in Middle-earth and serve as the mentors to Men.

And as to the passage about Eru's 'messengers to Men' in the NoME, I suppose Tu serves that function better than Nuin.

But as to your reference to the Athrabeth: one thing I always took from the discussion between Finrod and Andreth, and Andreth's recital of the Tale of Adanel, is that Men seem to be profoundly clueless as to their original nature (for one), and even the Edain still hold beliefs marred by Melkor's influence.

Which is why I'm so liberal about the inclusions from the Gilfanon's Tale: all of the myths/legends/rumors about Men's early days are (and should be!) a giant mess of garbled, corrupted, and contradictory accounts.

[Findegil]

I don't see that we will find common ground here, between the two of us. I would like to hear some other voices.

respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Findegil

I don't see that we will find common ground here, between the two of us. I would like to hear some other voices.

respectfully
Findegil

I haven't even looked at this chapter yet. I do honestly feel that proceeding in an orderly way and focusing on one chapter at a time has served us better than trying to work on everything simultaneously, but perhaps that's just me. (And I do realize that my slowness and absence hasn't helped.)

However, I will jump in to say that I am against taking up this material from "Gilfanon's Tale". Not only because of the "Tale of Adanel", but because Tolkien very clearly seems to have decided, post-LT, that the earliest history of Men should not be directly depicted, and should be left ambiguous. Gilfanon's Tale is the tale of the Fall, which Tolkien later explicitly said (in Letter 131) does not appear in his Legendarium:

The first fall of Man, for reasons explained, nowhere appears – Men do not come on the stage until all that is long past, and there is only a rumour that for a while they fell under the domination of the Enemy and that some repented

[Findegil]

This come not unexpected. And I agree, that might make more sense concentrat on one chapter at a time, if time is sparce as it seems to be in your case.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Well. I'm sorry I can't now put my text in english. I have no the sources here. But with a heading as that of the Second Prophecy of Mandos such as: A story among the men told... that, in my opinion, is valid because of the Mannish tradition stated by Tolkien we all know, it could be inserted an edited (reduced) extract of the Gilfanon text mentioned the discovering of the sleeping bodies by Nuin but not mention of the awakening nor mention of names.

This is my text translated by google, sorry sorry if it is of some help:

A story among men told that there was an Avari Elf named Nuin, who was very wise and liked to travel long spaces. And once he went far to the east of Endor, and few of his people accompanied him, and strange tales were told about them; but advancing very far, he arrived at a strange and wonderful place; he had never seen anything like it. A wall like a mountain rose before him, and for a long time he looked for a way to overcome it, until he came across a passage, and it was very dark and narrow; It entered the great cliff and snaked its way down through it. He then gained courage and followed this narrow path until suddenly the walls lowered on one side and the other, and he saw that he had found the entrance to a great space enclosed in a ring of uninterrupted mountains whose extent he could not determine in the gloom. .

Suddenly the sweet smells of the Earth rushed around him; There were no more adorable fragrances, and he stayed drinking the perfumes with deep delight, and among the fragrance of the nocturnal flowers came the deep odors that the pine forests release into the midnight air, and Nuin almost fainted before the charm of that dream place.

He then descended deeper into the valley, treading lightly, overcome by an amazement he had not known before, and behold, under the trees he saw the warm twilight populated with sleeping forms, some linked in pairs, and others sweetly asleep alone, and Nuin stopped and marveled, barely breathing. Then he turned and stole out of that hallowed place, and returning again through the passage through the mountain, he hurried to his land, and told what he had seen. "And it seemed to me," he said, "that all those who slept were like little children."

Then they were afraid of Ilúvatar the Lord of All; but nevertheless Nuin went there often, and he watched them sitting on a rock. On one occasion he tripped over one of the sleepers, who stirred but did not wake up. And then came the First Dawn.

Greetings

[Findegil]

So you skipt the references to Tû the wizard, and to the Battle of Palisor. That is an option.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

I take back my previous comments about the inclusion of Nuin, etc. due to these two pieces from NoME:

But Elves when discovered in 1085 were already a people, though appear never yet to have met Men, who awoke much further east.

- NoME, 'The Awaking of the Quendi', p. 39

plus this:

Then some date before the Arising of Men would be best, but not very long (in Elvish terms) before, for the Finding. At that time, though fairly numerous (?some thousands), they had not spread far abroad— ? fear of Melkor, Sauron, &c.; and do not seem ever to have met Men (though they had almost certainly heard lies about them from emissaries of Melkor).

- NoME, 'The Awaking of the Quendi', p. 35