Of the Coming of Men Into the West

[ArcusCalion]

This is the first draft of the chapter Of the Naugrim and the Edain

Our basis text is that of Later Quenta Silamrillion given in HoME 11; page 201-243. Wherever the text is different from that this is marked by an editing mark.

The markings are:
NE-CD-xx for the section Concerning Dwarves.
NE-CM-xx for the section Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Meeting of the Edain and the Eldar
NE-KE-xx for the section Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information

OF THE NAUGRIM AND THE EDAIN

Concerning the Dwarves

§1. Now in time the building of Nargothrond was completed, and Gondolin had been raised in secret; but in the days of the Siege of Angband the {Gnomes}[Noldor] had yet small need of hiding-places, and they ranged far and wide between the Western Sea and the Blue Mountains. NE-CD-01 < GA 150 The people of Caranthir Fëanor’s son dwelt beyond the upper waters of {Gelion}[Duin Daer], about Lake Helevorn under the shadow of the Blue Mountains. At this time> it is said that they climbed {Eredlindon}[Ered Lindon] and looked eastward in wonder, for the lands of Middle-earth seemed wild and wide; but none ever passed over the mountains while Angband lasted. In those days the folk of {Cranthir}[Caranthir] first came upon the Dwarves, whom {they [>} the Dark-elves{]} named the Naugrim; for the chief dwellings of that race were then in the mountains east of {Thargelion}[Radhrost], the land of {Cranthir}[Caranthir], and were digged deep in the eastern slopes of {Eredlindon}[Ered Lindon]. Thence they journeyed often into Beleriand, and were admitted even into Doriath. There was at that time no enmity between Elves and Dwarves, but nonetheless no great love.
NE-CD-02{...}
§4. In the darkness of Arda ....... save in further trading.
NE-CD-03{…}
§6. The father-tongue of the Dwarves ...... the speeches of the Elves.
§7. In their own tongue the Dwarves ...... while the power of the {Gnomes}[Noldor] lasted.
§9. It is reckoned that the first meeting of the Noldor and the Naugrim befell in the land of {Cranthir}[Caranthir] Fëanor’s son about that time when Fingolfin destroyed the Orcs at Drengist NE-CD-04{, one hundred and fifty-five years after the crossing of the Ice, and one hundred and five before the first coming of Glomund the dragon. After his defeat there was long peace, and it lasted for well-nigh two hundred years of the sun.}NE-CD-05 <GA 150 Now, though either people loved skill and was eager to learn, there was little love between the Noldor and the Dwarves. For the Dwarves were secret and quick to resentment, whereas Caranthir was haughty and scarce concealed his scorn for the unloveliness of the Naugrim, and his folk followed their lord. Nonetheless, since both peoples feared and hated Morgoth they made alliance, and had of it great profit. For the Naugrim learned many secrets of craft in those days, so that the smiths of Nogrod and Belegost became renowned among their kin; but the Noldor got great wealth of iron, and their armories became filled with store of weapons and harness of war. Moreover thereafter, until the power of {Maidros}[Maedhros] was overthrown, all the traffic of the dwarf-mines passed through the hands of Caranthir, and thus he won great riches.>

Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Meeting of the Edain and the Eldar

§1. Now it came to pass, ....
§2. In a valley among ....
§3. Then Felagund, standing ....
§4. Now these were a part ...
§5. Long Felagund watched them...
§6. Now men awoke ...
§7. Thus it was that Men ...
§8. Now the Eldar were ....
§9. 'A darkness lies behind us....
§10. But Felagund learned from Bëor that there were many other Men of like mind who were also journeying westward. 'Others of my own kin have crossed the Mountains,' he said, 'and they are wandering not far away; and the Haladin, a people NE-CM-01{that speak the same tongue as we}[of a different speech], are still in the valleys on the eastern slopes, awaiting tidings before they venture further. There are also Men {of a different speech,} with whom we have had dealings at times. They were before us in the westward march, but we passed them; for they are a numerous people, and yet keep together and move slowly, being all ruled by one chieftain whom they call Marach.'
§11 Now the Nandor...
§12 Then by the advice .... south of Nan ELmoth.

Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain

§13. Soon after the departure .... There was great friendship between the peoples NE-KE-01{, though they were sundered in speech, until they both learned the Sindarin tongue.}[.]
§14. Felagund himself ...
§15. The Edain did not ...
§16. Most of these took ... about the Hill of Himring.
NE-KE-02 <GA §130 It is said that in all these matters none save {Inglor}[Finrod] took counsel with King Thingol, and he was ill pleased, both for that reason, and because he was troubled by dreams concerning the coming of Men, ere ever the first tidings of them were heard. Therefore he commanded that Men should take no lands to dwell in save in the north, in Hithlum and Dorthonion, and that the princes whom they served should be answerable for all that they did. And he said: 'Into Doriath shall no Man come while my realm lasts, not even those of the house of Bëor who serve Finrod the beloved.'
§131 Melian said nothing to him at that time, but afterwards she said to Galadriel: 'Now the world runs on swiftly to great tidings. And one of Men, even of Bëor's house, shall indeed come, and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom greater than my power shall send him; and the songs that shall spring from that coming shall endure when all Middle-earth is changed.'>
§17. Many, however, remained ...
§18. The leaders of ...
§19. Then a council and assembly ...
§20. To this Bereg answered....
§21. Then those that ....
§22. But some still answered
§23. During this time the Haladin remained in Radhrost ....
§24. Now the Haladin did not live under ...
§25. Now Haldad had twin children...
§26. Then Caranthir looked ...
§27. But Haleth was proud...
§28. But they remained a people apart....
§29. Now Brethil was claimed ...
§30. In this way it came ....
§31. Now Hador {Glorindol}[Lorindol], ...
§32. The sons of Hador ...
§33. All these were caught ...
§34. The years of the .... that had beheld the Light.

NE-CD-01: This insert from the Grey Annals contains details about the dwelling of Caranthir which are not given elsewhere.
NE-CD-02: These paragraphs were used in Chapter 3.
NE-CD-03: These were also used in Ch. 3
NE-CD-04: I hesitate to use dates, bc at this point I do not know which date is correct. If these dates are fine, they may be retained.
NE-CD-05: This insert from the Annals contains much information about the relations of the Dwarves and the Noldor that we get nowhere else.
NE-CM-01: Christopher Tolkien says that according to a "late note" this information was wrong, and he removed it in the Sil77, as I think should we.
NE-KE-01: Same as the previous one.

This Chapter is very straightforward, and I did not include additions from the Of Dwarves and Men essay in HoME 12 because I believe that is planned to be included in full in VOLUME II. An addition made by Christopher Tolkien in this chapter concerns Melkor's corruption of Men, and is sourced from the Grey Annals, but I have inserted it into the chapter Of Men, as it seemed to fit the subject matter there better.

[Findegil]

A few remarks in passing. I have not analysed the changes you made in detail. That must wait a bit.
1. I think by our editing the sub chapter Concerning the Dwarves is very thin and out of sequence in this position. I suppose we should shift it. probably to the end of cahpter 18 Of Beleriand and it's Realms, but I did not check where the events mention before the first meeting of Noldor and Dwarves are recorded. Nontheless the work should not be lost, Since we should use these sub-chapter somewhere.

2. What I planned to use in the second age stuff of Of Dwarves and Men from HoME 12 is only the Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men (without the first paragraph, that I planed to use in chapter 3 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles, but then I have forgotten about that while editing). Other parts of the essay might be used here and in the chapter 15 Of Men. I remember that there were parts describing the journey of the Edain, which I suppose should be included here. As well there are the chapters about the Drûg that I think should be included here.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

1. If you think this arrangement works better, then fine. However, as Tolkien out this in this chapter, I see no real need to move it out of sequence. But if you think it feels too jarring it cancertainly be appended to the previous chapter.

2. Personally, I hesitate to chop up a finished work that is useable as it is with only minor editing. Thus, I would include the Statute of Finwe and Miriel as a separate work instead of adding it into Of Finwe and Miriel. In this case I would also like to keep part 2 of Of Dwarves and Men complete as it stands already, as I see no reason not to include it in full later.v

[ArcusCalion]

If we are to add in the Dwarves and Men material (which I would argue we should not) I have composed a draft of how it might be done.

The first paragraph of Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain must be greatly altered, due to the fact that I missed the change in order of the arrival of the tribes in Beleriand, and also the note in Ros about their sojurn by the sea of Rhun.

§13. Soon after the departure of Felagund the other Men of whom Bëor had spoken came also into Beleriand. First came NE-KE-0.2 <Moved up Marach {led}[leading] his people over the Mountains; and they were a tall and warlike folk, and they marched in ordered companies; and the Green-elves hid themselves and did not waylay them. NE-KE-0.5<DM They were a more numerous people; each host was as great as all the Folk of Bëor, and they were better armed and equipped; also they possessed many horses, and some asses and small flocks of sheep and goats. They had crossed Eriador and reached the eastern feet of the Mountains (Ered Lindon) a year or more ahead of all others, but had not attempted to find any passes, and had turned away seeking a road round the Mountains, which, as their horsed scouts reported, grew ever lower as they went southwards.> And Marach hearing that the people of Bëor were dwelling in a green and fertile land, came down the Dwarf-road and settled his people in the country to the south and east of the dwellings of Baran son of Bëor. There was great friendship between the peoples NE-KE-01{, though they were sundered in speech, until they both learned the Sindarin tongue.}[.]> NE-KE-01.2 <Ros Note 13: The Atani had never seen the Great Sea before they came at last to Beleriand; but according to their own legends and histories the Folk of {Hador}[Marach] had long dwelt during their westward migration by the shores of a sea too wide to see across; it had no tides, but was visited by great storms. It was not until they had developed a craft of boat-building that the people afterwards known as the Folk of Hador discovered that a part of their host from whom they had become separated had reached the same sea before them, and dwelt at the feet of the high hills to the south-west, whereas they {[the Folk of Hador]} lived in the north-east, in the woods that there came near to the shores. They were thus some two hundred miles apart, going by water; and they did not often meet and exchange tidings. Their tongues had already diverged, with the swiftness of the speeches of Men in the Unwritten Days, and continued to do so; though they remained friends of acknowledged kinship, bound by their hatred and fear of the Dark Lord (Morgoth), against whom they had rebelled. Nonetheless they did not know that the Lesser Folk had fled from the threat of the Servants of the Dark and gone on westward, while they had lain hidden in their woods, and so under their leader Bëor reached Beleriand at last many years before they did.> The next year, however, [came] <Moved down the Haladin; NE-KE-0.3 <DM They were probably more numerous than the Folk of Bëor, but no certain count of them was ever made; for they came secretly in small parties and hid in the woods of Ossiriand[;] {where the Elves showed them no friendship.}> but meeting the unfriendship of the Nandor they turned north and dwelt in Radhrost, in the country of Caranthir son of Fëanor; and there for a time they had peace, though the people of Caranthir paid little heed to them.

Then the second to last paragraph must be changed as well.

§33. All these were caught in the net of the Doom of the Noldor; and they did great deeds which the Eldar remember still among the histories of the Kings of old. And in those days the strength of Men was added to the power of the Noldor, and hope was renewed; and the people of the three houses of Men throve and multiplied. NE-KE-03 <DM{Greatest was the House of Hador Golden-head, peer of Elven-lords. Many of his people were like him, golden-haired and blue-eyed; they were tall and strong, quick to wrath and laughter, fierce in battle, generous to friend and to foe, swift in resolve, fast in loyalty, joyous in heart, the children of Ilúvatar in the youth of Mankind. But the people of the House of Bëor were dark or brown of hair; their eyes were grey and keen and their faces fair and shapely. Lithe and lean in body they were long-enduring in hardship. Of all Men they were most like the Noldor and most loved by them; for they were eager of mind, cunning-handed, swift in understanding, long in memory; and they were moved sooner to pity than to mirth, for the sorrow of Middle-earth was in their hearts. Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth; but they were shorter and broader, sterner and less swift. They were less eager for lore, and used few words; for they did not love great concourse of men, and many among them delighted in solitude, wandering free in the greenwoods while the wonder of the lands of the Eldar was new upon them. But in the realms of the West their time was brief and their days unhappy.} The Folk of {Hador}[Marach] were ever the greatest in numbers of the Atani, and in renown (save only Beren son of Barahir descendant of Bëor). For the most part they were tall people, with flaxen or golden hair and blue-grey eyes, but there were not a few among them that had dark hair, though all were fair-skinned. [Footnote: No doubt this was due to mingling with Men of other kind in the past; and it was noted that the dark hair ran in families that had more skill and interest in crafts and lore.]
Nonetheless they were akin to the Folk of Bëor, as was shown by their speech. It needed no lore of tongues to perceive that their languages were closely related, for although they could understand one another only with difficulty they had very many words in common. The Elvish loremasters [Footnote: With a knowledge of the language of the Folk of Bëor that was later lost, save for a few names of persons and places, and some words or phrases preserved in legends. One of the common words was atan.] were of opinion that both languages were descended from one that had diverged (owing to some division of the people who had spoken it) in the course of, maybe, a thousand years of the slower change in the First Age. Though the time might well have been less, and change quickened by a mingling of peoples; for the language of {Hador}[Marach] was apparently less changed and more uniform in style, whereas the language of Bëor contained many elements that were alien in character. This contrast in speech was probably connected with the observable physical differences between the two peoples. There were fair-haired men and women among the Folk of Bëor, but most of them had brown hair (going usually with brown eyes), and many were less fair in skin, some indeed being swarthy. Men as tall as the Folk of Hador were rare among them, and most were broader and more heavy in build. [Footnote: Beren the Renowned had hair of a golden brown and grey eyes; he was taller than most of his kin, but he was broad-shouldered and very strong in his limbs.]
In association with the Eldar, especially with the followers of King Finrod, they became as enhanced in arts and manners as the Folk of {Hador}[Marach], but if these surpassed them in swiftness of mind and body, in daring and noble generosity, [Footnote: The Eldar said, and recalled in the songs they still sang in later days, that they could not easily be distinguished from the Eldar - not while their youth lasted, the swift fading of which was to the Eldar a grief and a mystery.] the Folk of Bëor were more steadfast in endurance of hardship and sorrow, slow to tears or to laughter; their fortitude needed no hope to sustain it. But these differences of body and mind became less marked as their short generations passed, for the two peoples became much mingled by intermarriage and by the disasters of the War.
The Folk of Haleth were strangers to the other Atani, speaking an alien language; and though later united with them in alliance with the Eldar, they remained a people apart. Among themselves they adhered to their own language, and though of necessity they learned Sindarin for communication with the Eldar and the other Atani, many spoke it haltingly, and some of those who seldom went beyond the borders of their own woods did not use it at all. They did not willingly adopt new things or customs, and retained many practices that seemed strange to the Eldar and the other Atani, with whom they had few dealings except in war. Nonetheless they were esteemed as loyal allies and redoubtable warriors, though the companies that they sent to battle beyond their borders were small. For they were and remained to their end a small people, chiefly concerned to protect their own woodlands, and they excelled in forest warfare. Indeed, for long even those {Orks}[Orcs] specially trained for this dared not set foot near their borders. One of the strange practices spoken of was that many of their warriors were women, though few of these went abroad to fight in the great battles. This custom was evidently ancient; [Footnote: Not due to their special situation in Beleriand, and maybe rather a cause of their small numbers than its result. They increased in numbers far more slowly than the other Atani, hardly more than was sufficient to replace the wastage of war; yet many of their women (who were fewer than the men) remained unwed.] for their chieftainess Haleth had been a renowned amazon with a picked bodyguard of women.>
§34. The years of ...... had beheld the Light.

The Pukel and Drug sections I think must be separated, as they contain much reference to the Second and Third ages. However, besides the note from Ros, I do not think the Dwarves and Men material should be added, simply because the essay contains much about the Second and Third ages of Men that is said nowhere else, and to discard it and chop it up without real reason seems a shame to me.

[Findegil]

Back to my own comment 1: I retake it. As it stands now it is fine to have the meeting of the people of Caranthir with the dwarves recorded here.

NE-CD-01: Agreed.

{Thargelion}[Radhrost]: I think Radhrost is as well no longer valid. I would rather replace Thargelion by Talath Rhúnen as in our general changes.

NE-CD-02 and NE-CD-03: Agreed.

NE-CD-04: These dates are okay. And I think we should keep them. We just have to change Glomund to Glaurung.

NE-CD-05: Agreed.

{Maidors}[Maedhros]: Up to now the discussion was between Maedros or Maedron and the decision was made to take the more conservative Maedros. So please remove the ‘h’.

NE-CM-01: Agreed.

NE-KE-01: Agreed.

NE-KE-00.2: Agreed and this change is necessary either way, taking material form Of Dwarves and Men or not.

NE-KE-00.5: The general discussion of material from Of Dwarves and Men we should keep in one place, and that is for me the thread about Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles. If we agree there to take these material up, I agree to this use.

NE-KE-01.2: Agreed.

NE-KE-00.3: Agreed. But see NE-KE-00.5.

NE-KE-03: Agreed. But see NE-KE-00.5. And I would include all the stuff about the Drûg, making your last section look like this:

§33 All these were caught in the net of the Doom of the Noldor; and they did great deeds which the Eldar remember still among the histories of the Kings of old. And in those days the strength of Men was added to the power of the Noldor, and hope was renewed; and the people of the three houses of Men throve and multiplied. NE-KE-03 <DM{Greatest was the House of Hador Golden-head, … But in the realms of the West their time was brief and their days unhappy.} The Folk of {Hador}[Marach] were ever the greatest … though all were fair-skinned. [Footnote to the text: No doubt this was due to mingling with Men of other kind in the past; and it was noted that the dark hair ran in families that had more skill and interest in crafts and lore.]
Nonetheless they were akin to the Folk of Bëor, as was shown by their speech. It needed no lore of tongues to perceive that their languages were closely related, for although they could understand one another only with difficulty they had very many words in common. The Elvish loremasters [Footnote to the text: With a knowledge of the language of the Folk of Bëor that was later lost, save for a few names of persons and places, and some words or phrases preserved in legends. One of the common words was atan.] were of opinion that both languages were descended from one … for the language of {Hador}[Marach] was apparently less changed … they became as enhanced in arts and manners as the Folk of {Hador}[Marach], but if these surpassed them in swiftness of mind … for the two peoples became much mingled by intermarriage and by the disasters of the War.
The Folk of Haleth were strangers to the other Atani, … This custom was evidently ancient; [Footnote to the text: Not due to their special situation in Beleriand, and maybe rather a cause of their small numbers than its result. They increased in numbers far more slowly than the other Atani, hardly more than was sufficient to replace the wastage of war; yet many of their women (who were fewer than the men) remained unwed.] for their chieftainess Haleth had been a renowned amazon with a picked bodyguard of women.> NE-KE-04< UT; The Drúedain
The Drúedain
The strangest of all the customs of the Folk of Haleth was the presence among them of people of a wholly different kind,[Footnote to the text: Though they spoke the same language (after their fashion). They retained however a number of words of their own.{ [Author's note.]}] the like of which neither the Eldar in Beleriand nor the other Atani had ever seen before. They were not many, a few hundreds maybe, living apart in families or small tribes, but in friendship, as members of the same community.[Footnote to the text: After the fashion in which in the Third Age the Men and Hobbits of Bree lived together; though there was no kinship between the Drûg-folk and the Hobbits.{ [Author's note.]}] The Folk of Haleth called them by the name drug, ... untainted by scorn or malice.[Footnote to the text: To the unfriendly who, ... regarded the other as renegades.{ [Author's note.] – In The Silmarillion the Orcs are said ... dark eyes that showed nothing.}] In peace they often laughed at work or play when other Men might sing. ... the only creatures for whom their hatred was implacable.
The Eldar called them Drúedain, admitting them to the rank of Atani,[Footnote to the text: NE-KE-05{It is stated in isolated notes that their}Their own name for themselves was Drughu ... In Quenya Drughu became Rú, and Rúatan, plural Rúatani.{ For their other names in later times (Wild Men, Woses, Púkel-men) see pp. 400-1 and note 14.}] for they were much loved while they lasted. Alas! they were not long-lived, and were ever few in number, their losses were heavy in their feud with the Orcs, who turned their hatred and delighted to capture them and torture them. NE-KE-06{ When the victories of Morgoth destroyed ... some of whom came to the last refuges at the Mouth Sirion.[Footnote to the text: In the annals of Númenor it is said that ... died out long before the Downfall."]}
NE-KE-07 <UT, Further Notes on the Drúedain {Another note says that historians}Historians in Gondor believed that the first Men to cross the Anduin were indeed the Drúedain. ... seeking a land where they could be hidden and have peace."> NE-KE-08 <UT, Further Notes on the Drúedain An emigrant branch of the Drúedain accompanied the Folk of Haleth ... who had relapsed into the service of the Dark.>
In their earlier days they had been of great service to those among whom they dwelt, and they were much sought after; though few would ever leave the land of the Folk of Haleth.[Footnote to the text: A few lived in the household of Húrin of the House of Hador, for he had dwelt among the Folk of Haleth in his youth and had kinship with their lord.{ [Author's note.] – On the relationship of Húrin to the Folk of Haleth see The Silmarillion p. 158. – It was my father's intention ultimately to transform Sador, the old serving-man in Húrin's house in Dor-1ómin, into a Drûg.}] They had a marvellous skill as trackers ... or useful as food.[Footnote to the text: They had a law against the use of all poisons for the hurt of any living creatures, even those who had done them injury – save only Orcs, whose poisoned darts they countered with others more deadly.{ [Author's note.] – Elfhelm told Meriadoc Brandybuck that the Wild Men used poisoned arrows ... not even their closest friends among the Folk of Haleth were welcomed there."}] NE-KE-09 <HoME 12; Of Dwarves and Men, Note 51{ To the astonishment of Elves and other Men they ate funguses with pleasure, … and supposed them to have been cursed and blighted by Morgoth.}>
The Drúedain, as also the other Atani, ... although the Atani had a knowledge of metals and some smith-craft before they came to Beleriand,[Footnote to the text: Acquired according to their legends from the Dwarves.{ [Author's note.]}] for metals were hard to come by and forged weapons and tools very costly. But when in Beleriand by association with the Eldar ... Concerning this a tale was related among the Folk of Haleth:

On a time, one of the most skilled in stone-carving among the Drûgs made an image of his father, ... I find your cloak too hot in the sun."

It is said that the Drúedain would often sit thus in times of grief or loss, ... they would hold some of the menace of the living men.
Indeed, though they held the Drúedain in love and trust,... One of these is recorded here.

The Faithful Stone
On a time there was a Drûg named Aghan,... May it keep you from harm!"
Nothing untoward happened for two nights, ... and there remained only a smoke and a stench.
Barach went back indoors to comfort his family, ... How have you fared?"
"We are still alive," said Barach. ... What have you to say to that?"
"I will speak, ... And better that his legs should trample Orc-fire than mine."
Then he sat down and unlaced his buskins, ... then you must take a share in its hurts." NE-KE-10{[Footnote to the text: Of this story, my father remarked: "The tales, such as The Faithful Stone, that speak of their transferring part of their 'powers' to their artefacts, remind one in miniature of Sauron's transference of power to the foundations of the Barad-dûr and to the Ruling Ring."]}
NE-KE-11 <DM {
This long account of the Druedain has been given, … into some of the legends of the First Age (e.g. the old retainer (Sadog) of Hurin in the legend of Turin).[Footnote to the text: [See Unfinished Tales, p. 386, note 8. Elsewhere Hurin's servingman is named Sador, not Sadog.]]

}The Drûgs or Pukel-men are not however to be confused … and they had or were credited with strange or magical powers. (The tales, such as 'The Faithful Stone', that speak of their transferring part of their 'powers' to their artefacts, remind one in miniature of Sauron's transference of power to the foundation of the Barad-dur and to the Ruling Ring.){[Footnote to the text: [This sentence is cited in Unfinished Tales, p. 387, note 11.]]} Also the Drûgs were a frugal folk, … the Drûgs were short-lived compared with other kinds of Men.
The Drûgs that are met in the tales of the First Age … not even their closest friends among the Folk of Haleth were welcomed there.NE-KE-12>
§34 The years of the Edain were lengthened, … and the faces that had beheld the Light.

Now to my additional changes:
NE-KE-04: This is the start of the Drúedain stuff. It might be used to head the general discussion if this material should be placed here. I did not mark the removal of editorial footnotes with editing markers. I hope that is okay.

NE-KE-05: Here we have a special case. The material about the selfnaming should be included, but it can be discussed if a footnote is the right wax, when this arrangement was clearly editorial.

NE-KE-06: Thedeleted stuff should be used in the Second Age story.

NE-KE-07 and NE-KE-08: This alone would, in my opinion, be worth the inclusion of the Drûg in this chapter.

NE-KE-09: JRR Tolkien marked these for deletion. But I hesitate about it. Even so I see Tolkiens reason, this would fit the Drûg very well and provides a look into the attitude to fungus of the other Edain and Eldar.

NE-KE-10: Okay this is an editorial footnote, but it contains some Authorial statement. Therefore I put a marker on it. Nonetheless I think it must go.

NE-KE-11: This § seems not useable as it is too much showing the essay stile.

NE-KE-12: I put that marker to discuss the Hobbit stuff that follows in OF Dwarves and Men. For me that would belong into the Third Age narrative. But it can be discussed if (farther) parts of it should be included here.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I will make a more detailed reply to your comments as soon as I am able, but at the moment I would like to say that I think now that as long as no pieces of the essay are "lost" but are simply used in different parts of the work, then I suppose it does make sense to chop it up. There was a footnote you deleted about Merry and Elfhelm, and these are the kinds of deletions that I was worried about when you wanted to chop up the essay, so if that is included here again, or reused somewhere else (although I do not see how or where) then I will be ok with the addition of these sections, as well as the sections in the Dwarves chapter.

[Findegil]

What I deleted from the footnote was the editorial part added by Christopher Tolkien. It is true that in this part Elfhelm and Merry are reffered to, but these editorial refferences have to go anyhow. So I think it should be okay.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

As explained in Of the Sindar I would move §6 to that chapter and skip it here.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I think we should keep the note about the fungus because it is such an interesting source of information about so many things.

On a side note, some of the other notes about the druedain in the UT chapter, are they being saved for the second and third age stuff?

[Findegil]

What is from JRR Tolkien himself in these notes is from later paragraphs of the essay. And yes, what is useable should be used there.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Looking at the structure, I think we should consider making "Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Meeting of the Edain and the Eldar" the title of the chapter, and have "Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain" and "The Druedain" be subheadings. The name of the chapter "Of the {Naugrim and the} Edain" seems redundant.

[gondowe]

One thing about NE-KE-00.2.
I don´t know if in this case is necessary the changing of the order. Possibly, as the same CT suggested, the professor forgot the extended account of the coming of Men into the west that wrote in 1958, and it seems logical due to the great number of people of marach.
What do you think?
Greetings

[Elvellon]

They were before us in the westward march, but we passed them; for they are a numerous people, and yet keep together and move slowly

This is contradicted by the text added from Of Dwarves and Men a couple paragraphs later:

They had crossed Eriador and reached the eastern feet of the Mountains (Ered Lindon) a year or more ahead of all others

Yes, technically Beor "passed them" because his folk arrived in Beleriand through while Marach's folk were taking the long way south around the mountains, but the reason he gives of size and speed heavily implies that Beor means he and his folk literally, physically, passed them.

Which brings me to the next point:

First came NE-KE-0.2 <Moved up Marach {led}[leading] his people over the Mountains; [...] And Marach [...] came down the Dwarf-road [...]

We learn in Of Dwarves and Men that the Folk of Marach "came up from southward" instead of "over the Mountains". I'm wondering why this was not taken up into the text, but the part about them not attempting to find passes, and "seeking a road round the Mountains" was. The way that the two texts are combined, it seems like Marach's people abandoned the plan to find a way around, and they went back north and came "down the Dwarf-road". If the intention is that they crossed over the mountains at a point to the south and then went "down the Dwarf-road" after coming up the west-side of the mountains, that's not clear as it is.

What's more, it seems to me that as it stands, we have two unique reasons for why the folk of Marach were delayed: first, as Beor explains it, because they are numerous and slow; and second, because they went south before coming back north. These are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but neither do they play very nice together. It seems better to me to go with one or the other, and much as I prefer the additional information from D&M, removing it does less harm to the text than trying to modify Beor's description of the the people of Marach's circumstances.

[Elvellon]

Also, the inclusion of Ros Note 13 creates a similar problem:

They had crossed Eriador and reached the eastern feet of the Mountains (Ered Lindon) a year or more ahead of all others

is contradicted by:

Nonetheless they did not know that the Lesser Folk had fled from the threat of the Servants of the Dark and gone on westward, while they had lain hidden in their woods, and so under their leader Bëor reached Beleriand at last many years before they did.

Furthermore, Beor reached Beleriand two years before Marach, not "many years before".

[Findegil]

Uhu, a lot has accumalted here since I last was in this discussion!

About the chapter heading: I agree to ArcusCalion's proposal and will nam that change NE-CD-00.1 and NE-CD-06

NE-KE-00.2 & NE-KE-00.3: For me the change of order is necessary. And I agree that we must alter the statement that Marach led his people over the mountains. I would simply change "NE-KE-00.3{over}[around] the mountains" and later "{came down}[follwed] the Dwarfe-road"

NE-CM-01.5: This Beor speaking about Marachs-Folk. I would alter this only slightly. Beor should not give the reason why they passed Marachs-folk, but I don't see an issue with him saying that they passed them:

§10 But Felagund learned from Bëor that there were many other Men of like mind who were also journeying westward. 'Others of my own kin have crossed the Mountains,' he said, 'and they are wandering not far away; and the Haladin, a people NE-CM-01{that speak the same tongue as we}[of a different speech], are still in the valleys on the eastern slopes, awaiting tidings before they venture further. There are also Men {of a different speech,} with whom we have had dealings at times. They were before us in the westward march, but we passed them; NE-CM-01.5{for }they are a numerous people, and yet keep together{ and move slowly}, being all ruled by one chieftain whom they call Marach.'

If Marach is an individual name we might skip the last half sentence as well since Beor's people had no contact to these folk since they left the Sea of Rhûn, Beor can not know the name of the ruler. But think I remember that Marach was be a kind of title like 'Halbar' in the case of the folk of Haleth.

ROS Note13: I agree that many years must be changed. I would simply skip "many". But with Beor's folk leaving the Sea of Rhûn before the Folk of Marach, I don't see why this should be changed. On the long, long way through the wide regions Rhavanion and Eriador many a change of possition could take place without any of two people recognising it.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elvellon]

Thanks for the reply, Findegil. It has been a while!

Originally Posted by Findegil

NE-KE-00.2 & NE-KE-00.3: For me the change of order is necessary. And I agree that we must alter the statement that Marach led his people over the mountains. I would simply change "NE-KE-00.3{over}[around] the mountains" and later "{came down}[follwed] the Dwarfe-road"

That works, but I'd like to offer an alternative revision that I personally think works better, but I understand if it's too drastic:

§13. Soon after the departure of Felagund the other Men of whom Bëor had spoken came also into Beleriand. First came NE-KE-0.2 <Moved up Marach[,] {led}[leading] his people{ over the Mountains}NE-KE-0.5<DM up from southward{, and two others of much the same strength followed before the fall of the year}.<Moved up They had crossed Eriador and reached the eastern feet of {the Mountains (}Ered Lindon{) a year or more ahead of all others}, but had not attempted to find any passes, and had turned away seeking a road round the Mountains, which, as their horsed scouts reported, grew ever lower as they went southwards.> {and they}[They] were a tall and warlike folk, and they marched in [three] ordered {companies}[hosts]; and the Green-elves hid themselves and did not waylay them. They were a {more }numerous people; each host was as great as all the Folk of Bëor, and they were better armed and equipped; also they possessed many horses, and some asses and small flocks of sheep and goats.>

I swapped the order of the two sentences from DM to make it clearer why the came up southwards instead of over the mountains like Beor's people. I don't think we need to say they were a "more" numerous people, because the "more" was originally meant to relate to the nearby description of Beor's folk as "a small people" two sentences earlier in DM.

Here is the plain text version:

Soon after the departure of Felagund the other Men of whom Bëor had spoken came also into Beleriand. First came Marach, leading his people up from southward. They had crossed Eriador and reached the eastern feet of Ered Lindon, but had not attempted to find any passes, and had turned away seeking a road round the Mountains, which, as their horsed scouts reported, grew ever lower as they went southwards. They were a tall and warlike folk, and they marched in three ordered hosts; and the Green-elves hid themselves and did not waylay them. They were a numerous people; each host was as great as all the Folk of Bëor, and they were better armed and equipped; also they possessed many horses, and some asses and small flocks of sheep and goats.

ROS Note13:

Originally Posted by Findegil

But with Beor's folk leaving the Sea of Rhûn before the Folk of Marach, I don't see why this should be changed. On the long, long way through the wide regions Rhavanion and Eriador many a change of possition could take place without any of two people recognising it.

Sure, I can see that being logically true, but why would Beor mention that they passed Marach on the road if we are meant to imagine "many a change of position" along the way? It seems to me that Tolkien was originally describing what he saw as one position change: Marach was "before [Beor] on the westward march" but they were slow, so Beor passed them. Over time, the westward march of the Atani became more complex in Tolkien's mind, to where he eventually pushed back the date of awakening, but by adding in that detail from DM and Ros, Beor's statement about passing Marach seems unnatural, and we therefore are put in a position of trying to rationalize it.

This brings up another issue that just occured to me.

We have Beor telling Felagund that the Haladin, who are "a people of a different speech", are "awaiting tidings before they venture further". If they are now "strangers to the other Atani, speaking an alien language" (as described in DM), then it raises the question: from whom and how would these tidings come? What's more, by including the DM material, they no longer seem to cross into Beleriand a result of tidings anyway. They just come over secretly in small parties the following year.

In my opinion, the Haladin "awaiting tidings" from Beor's folk only makes sense when they were originally "a people that speak the same tongue". When Christopher swapped the two folks in the Silmarillion based on his father's "late and very express statements", he should have removed the part about them awaiting tidings.

[Findegil]

About the speach of Beor: I agree that to eliminat the referecen toBeor passing by Marach is safer. BUt I do not see why the poeple of Haleth shouldn't wait for a message from Beor. However, for Beor to know about them they had to be in contact. And as Beor did know they were of the same mind (renegades from the service of the Dark Lord), they must have had a way of communication. Thus way shouldn't they asked Beor to send a message after he found a way over the Mountains?


I don't think your change is to drastic, but I would propose to keep the text of DM a bit more together:

Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain
§13 NE-KE-00.1 <DM The Atani were three peoples, independent in organisation and leadership, each of which differed in speech and also in form and bodily features from the others - though all of them showed traces of mingling in the past with Men of other kinds. These peoples the Eldar named the Folk of Bëor, the Folk of Hador, and the Folk of Haleth, after the names of the NE-KE-00.15<editorial addition<most renowned> chieftains{ who commanded them when they first came to Beleriand}. The Folk of Bëor were the first Men to enter Beleriand - they were met in the dales of East Beleriand by King Finrod the Friend of Men, for they had found a way over the Mountains. They were a small people, having no more, it is said, than two thousand full-grown men; and they were poor and ill-equipped, but they were inured to hardship and toilsome journeys carrying great loads, for they had no beasts of burden.> Soon after the departure of Felagund the other Men of whom Bëor had spoken came also into Beleriand. First came NE-KE-00.2 passage moved down {the Haladin; but meeting the unfriendship of the Nandor they turned north and dwelt in Radhrost, in the country of Caranthir son of Fëanor; and there for a time they had peace, though the people of Caranthir paid little heed to them. The next year, however,} Marach {led}leading his {people over the Mountains}; NE-KE-00.3 <DM{Not long after} the first of the three hosts of the Folk of Hador. They came up from south-ward, and two others of much the same strength followed before the fall of the year.>{and they}They were a tall and warlike folk, and they marched in ordered companies; and the Green-elves hid themselves and did not waylay them. NE-KE-00.5 <DM They were a more numerous people; each host was as great as all the Folk of Bëor, and they were better armed and equipped; also they possessed many horses, and some asses and small flocks of sheep and goats. They had crossed Eriador and reached the eastern feet of the Mountains (Ered Lindon) a year or more ahead of all others, but had not attempted to find any passes, and had turned away seeking a road round the Mountains, which, as their horsed scouts reported, grew ever lower as they went southwards.> And Marach hearing that the people of Bëor were dwelling in a green and fertile land, NE-KE-00.3{came down}[followed] the Dwarf-road and settled his people in the country to the south and east of the dwellings of Baran son of Bëor. There was great friendship between the peoples NE-KE-01{, though they were sundered in speech, until they both learned the Sindarin tongue.}.> [b]NE-KE-01.2[b] <Ros Note 13 The Atani had never seen the Great Sea before they came at last to Beleriand; but according to their own legends and histories the Folk of Hador had long dwelt during their westward migration by the shores of a sea too wide to see across; it had no tides, but was visited by great storms. It was not until they had developed a craft of boat-building that the people afterwards known as the Folk of Hador discovered that a part of their host from whom they had become separated had reached the same sea before them, and dwelt at the feet of the high hills to the south-west, whereas they {[the Folk of Hador] }lived in the north-east, in the woods that there came near to the shores. They were thus some two hundred miles apart, going by water; and they did not often meet and exchange tidings. Their tongues had already diverged, with the swiftness of the speeches of Men in the Unwritten Days, and continued to do so; though they remained friends of acknowledged kinship, bound by their hatred and fear of the Dark Lord (Morgoth), against whom they had rebelled. Nonetheless they did not know that the Lesser Folk had fled from the threat of the Servants of the Dark and gone on westward, while they had lain hidden in their woods, and so under their leader Bëor reached Beleriand at last{ many} years before they did.> The next year, however, came <Moved down the Haladin; NE-KE-00.3 <DM They were probably more numerous than the Folk of Bëor, but no certain count of them was ever made; for they came secretly in small parties and hid in the woods of Ossiriand[u];] {where the Elves showed them no friendship.}> but meeting the unfriendship of the Nandor they turned north and dwelt in {Radhrost}[Talath Rhúnen], in the country of Caranthir son of Fëanor; and there for a time they had peace, though the people of Caranthir paid little heed to them.>

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elvellon]

Originally Posted by Findegil

BUt I do not see why the poeple of Haleth shouldn't wait for a message from Beor.

Beor made them wait an awfully long time if they did. Or they waited an awfully long time after receiving tidings. Sure, again, we can add in our own rationalizations, but we're rationalizing as a result of combining texts, not because Tolkien intended it.

Beor only mentions tidings in the LQ version where the Haladin speak the same language, and are then the first to come over after Beor, and not in small secret groups.

Originally Posted by Findegil

However, for Beor to know about them they had to be in contact.

Well of course he knows about them, because that dialogue comes from the version of the QS where he is in direct contact with them, and they speak the same language, and they're waiting for tidings, ostensibly from him and his folk. But that doesn't appear to be the case anymore in Of Dwarves and Men, where there's no evidence that Beor knew anything about the Haladin (or Marach, in fact). Each group merely arrives on its own in its own time over the course of several years. Because by the late 60s, Tolkien seems to have expanded the entire westward march to be something far slower and grander than it originally was, with each of three folks significantly more distinct in language, appearance, and dress from one another.

That's why I go back to my earlier point, which is that I think Christopher made a mistake in The Silmarillion by including the text about awaiting tidings. Once CT swapped the the folks of Haleth and Marach, it no longer made sense for Beor to know they were awaiting tidings.

Sure, it's not a deeply troubling plot hole in need of patching, but I do think there's a good case to be made here that in the process of combining two texts, that JRRT likely considered to be mutually exclusive to one another, CT and GK, and by extension this project, allowed some minor inconsistencies to slip through the cracks.

[Findegil]

Okay, I see now your point. So you think that we should skip Bëor's mentioning of the Folk of Haleth waiting fo rtiddings east of Ered Luin or are suggesting that we should skip all the talk between Felagund and Bëor about the other Atani?

To skipping the waiting for meassage, I would be okay with that. But that he did know about the others is at least for the Folk of Marach asured in DW and I don't see why he should not have knowledge of the wandering Haladin as well.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elvellon]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Okay, I see now your point. So you think that we should skip Bëor's mentioning of the Folk of Haleth waiting fo rtiddings east of Ered Luin or are suggesting that we should skip all the talk between Felagund and Bëor about the other Atani?

To skipping the waiting for meassage, I would be okay with that. But that he did know about the others is at least for the Folk of Marach asured in DW and I don't see why he should not have knowledge of the wandering Haladin as well.

Respectfully
Findegil

Oh no, not that drastic. I would just remove ", awaiting tidings before they venture further".

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Elvellon

Oh no, not that drastic. I would just remove ", awaiting tidings before they venture further".

I'm a bit confused - what exactly is drastic?

Even in Tolkien's latest musings I find it incredibly unlikely that not one person (in the case of the Houses of Beor and Marach) couldn't understand the speech of the Halethrim (or vice versa).

The most isolated tribes on the planet still have some contact with other tribes - otherwise they'd collapse in an incestuous black hole.

While the Houses of Beor and Marach might've been relatively isolated from the Halethrim (especially in language), I fail to see how they had no contact? Especially in Tolkien's later conception of Men awaking c. 3,000 years before the Exile of the Noldor.



All of the above aside, the fact that the published Silmarillion (as well as the texts on which we're founding our project) has c. 300 years between the Awaking of Men and their arrival in Beleriand consisting of a ton of different cultures, phenotypes, etc. is one of the two things that had me seriously considering Tolkien's 'Round-world', post-1958 writings (it's why I left the project in the first place).

[Findegil]

I seems we are all in on line of sought: Bëor had knowledge about the Folk of Marach and the Folk of Haleth.

And for the Folk of Haleth waiting for tiddings from Bëor's folk, I would agree to Evellon's suggestion:

§10 But Felagund learned from Bëor that there were many other Men of like mind who were also journeying westward. 'Others of my own kin have crossed the Mountains,' he said, 'and they are wandering not far away; and the Haladin, a people NE-CM-01{that speak the same tongue as we}[of a different speech], are still in the valleys on the eastern slopes NE-CM-01.02{, awaiting tidings before they venture further}. There are also Men {of a different speech,} with whom we have had dealings at times. They were before us in the westward march, but we passed them; NE-CM-01.5{for }they are a numerous people, and yet keep together{ and move slowly}, being all ruled by one chieftain whom they call Marach.'

Arvegil145, you shouldn't have left for that reason. I also think that the timeline is much more credible with a Round Earth Version. And others have made simillar comments. Consens was that our finished Flat Earth Version could be a good starting point for the poeple that would be interrested to create a Round Earth Version.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Arvegil145, you shouldn't have left for that reason. I also think that the timeline is much more credible with a Round Earth Version. And others have made simillar comments. Consens was that our finished Flat Earth Version could be a good starting point for the poeple that would be interrested to create a Round Earth Version.

Respectfully
Findegil

Oh, it wasn't the only reason - the other reason was that I was beginning to get uncomfortable with the whole idea of fusing together texts from the 1910s and the 1970s (for example); since then however, I've grown completely zen to all things Tolkien (even dumb stuff like RoP).

But the real reason was that 2015 was a terrible year for me (or rather its end). I'd just leave it at that.

[Elvellon]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

I'm a bit confused - what exactly is drastic?

To Findegil's question "are suggesting that we should skip all the talk between Felagund and Bëor about the other Atani?" I was saying no, I am not suggesting such a drastic change.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Even in Tolkien's latest musings I find it incredibly unlikely that not one person (in the case of the Houses of Beor and Marach) couldn't understand the speech of the Halethrim (or vice versa).

The most isolated tribes on the planet still have some contact with other tribes - otherwise they'd collapse in an incestuous black hole.

While the Houses of Beor and Marach might've been relatively isolated from the Halethrim (especially in language), I fail to see how they had no contact? Especially in Tolkien's later conception of Men awaking c. 3,000 years before the Exile of the Noldor.

I agree with all of that, but to me those factors have to take lower priority than Tolkien's own last words on the subject.

What we know from Of Dwarves and Men is that the three tribes "differed in speech", and the Folk of Haleth so much so that they "were strangers to the other Atani, speaking an alien language". In The Problem of Ros we find: "The language of the Folk of Haleth, so far as it was later known, appears to have been unrelated (unless in remote origin) and unintelligible to the other two peoples," to the extent that "This was the reason, in addition to their admiration of the Eldar, why the chieftains, elders, and wise men and women of the Atani learned Sindarin."

Even though I think Sil77 made a small mistake by leaving in the line about "awaiting tidings", it's more easily hand-waved there because Christopher didn't include any of the above detail regarding languages. But this project does, so it stands out more to me as not fitting together. Of course there could have been some communication of some kind along the westward march, but as far as evidence for it in the latest texts, there's nothing about the folks of Haleth and Beor communicating. Unless I'm missing something. And when reading strictly the text of DM on its own, there's no reason to conclude that Haleth awaited tidings from (to paraphrase) "strangers who spoke an unintelligible language". They would have done their own reconnaissance, and it seems they did just that, by coming over secretly in small groups.

Anyway, I've spent more time on this one small suggestion than I ever intended, no doubt making it seem like a bigger issue than I actually think it is!

[Findegil]

I think the three of us are now all in agreement about the change.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

I agree with Findegil - it's all okay.

Originally Posted by Elvellon

And when reading strictly the text of DM on its own, there's no reason to conclude that Haleth awaited tidings from (to paraphrase) "strangers who spoke an unintelligible language".

Just a minor tidbit - while the DM mentions Haleth as being one of the original leaders of the Three Houses, CT has this to say:

Haleth was not the name of the chieftain who commanded the Folk of Haleth when they first came to Beleriand: see XI.221-2 and the genealogical tree, XI.237. But this is probably not significant, in view of what is said at the end of the paragraph: these people 'were called the Folk of Haleth, for Haleth was the name of their chieftainess who led them to the woods north of Doriath where they were permitted to dwell.'

- 'Of Dwarves and Men', note 41, p. 325


However, in the same note CT goes on to say:

On the other hand, the statement that Hador was the name of the chieftain who led the Folk of Hador into Beleriand seems to ignore that greatly enlarged and altered history that had entered in the chapter 'Of the Coming of Men into the West' (cf. note 38), according to which it was Marach who led that people over the Mountains, and Hador himself, though he gave his name to the people, was a descendant of Marach in the fourth generation (see XI.218-19 and the genealogical tree, XI.234).

I have a sneaking suspicion (nothing concrete of course) that Tolkien followed up on his swap of Magor and Hador and ultimately ended up further swapping Marach with Hador - or at any rate, perhaps he was to identify Marach with Hador ('Marach' being a Mannish name and 'Hador' being an Elvish one, I can easily imagine Marach being called Hador by the Elves).

Of course, all this is pure speculation and shouldn't be included in the work - but I always wondered why Hador was included with the likes of Hurin, Turin and Beren when Elrond was comparing Frodo to the heroic 'elf-friends of old': he is important obviously, but that important?

Perhaps Tolkien also felt that way, and just like in the case Galadriel and Celeborn, he kept progressively elevating his status to match Elrond's description of him.

Anyway, I'm rambling...

[Elvellon]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Just a minor tidbit - while the DM mentions Haleth as being one of the original leaders of the Three Houses, CT has this to say:

Yep, that was pure laziness on my part. I got tired of typing "folk of".