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#1 |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
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Amazon’s Lord of the Rings Series Rises: Inside The Rings of Power
As a big, chunky first-look at the series (they seem to have watched the first 3 episodes), I figure this will probably need its own thread - not least because I'm going to analyse it to death. To give a very quick start: - We get faces and names for 5 of the posters revealed a few days ago. Looking at this collage, the woman with the armour and Two Trees dagger (row 3, left) is Galadriel, the one with a sceptre on the same row (second from right) is Elrond, and the last three on the bottom row are new characters Arondir and Disa, and Durin IV. - There are also several other characters who I can't match up. New mortal characters Halbrand and Bronwyn are probably on there; the unnamed pair of nomads probably aren't (though one could be the apple-holder). Two "Harfoots" are assigned actors, but not shown or named; Isildur's actor is named but not shown. - Locations shown include the entrance to Khazad-Dum, a very Shire-like green hill, "the [mortal] village of Tirharad", Lindon, and an apothecary in "Middle-earth's Southlands". - There's a lot of plot discussion which I hope to dig into, but the big one, and the one that will have all you skeptics laughing through your teeth: They have compressed the entire Second Age plotline down to the life of Isildur. "If you are true to the exact letter of the law, you are going to be telling a story in which your human characters are dying off every season because you’re jumping 200 years in time, and then you’re not meeting really big, important canon characters until season four. Look, there might be some fans who want us to do a documentary of Middle-earth, but we’re going to tell one story that unites all these things." So Sauron's rise from nothing - the forging of the Great Rings - the fall of Eregion - the darkening of Numenor - Ar-Pharazon's rise and glory - the Akallabeth and the Last Alliance - all of it happens in a timeframe which allows Isildur (and presumably Halbrand, Bronwyn, and the Harfoots) to witness the whole blessed thing. ... hmm. EDIT: A couple of other Vanity Fair articles appeared over the week that followed, plus the first teaser trailer: Teaser Trailer 1 (Superbowl Trailer) Secrets of 'The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power Teaser' Trailer (Vanity Fair) 10 Burning Questions About Amazon’s 'The Rings of Power' (Vanity Fair) hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Huinesoron; 02-15-2022 at 03:05 AM. |
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#2 |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,857
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Galadriel
![]() So what's up with Galadriel? The article talks about her a lot, but I think that might be because she's the only name movie fans will recognise. It's certainly why they start with her. - She's named under this photo as "commander of the Northern Armies". Of Lindon? Of Eregion? Of Nargothrond? Unclear, but probably not the latter. Honestly, it's not out of character for Artanis Nerwen to run about playing soldier. - "As the series begins, Galadriel is hunting down the last remnants of [Morgoth and Sauron's] collaborators, who claimed the life of her brother." ... ... ... um, I think they killed all her brothers, actually, but none in a context which would lead to that phrasing. Maybe it's just a clumsy way of saying "she's really angry at the Enemy because of her family's deaths in the War", but if they muck about with Finrod's death (we all know it'll be Finrod), I'm going to be really cross. ![]() - She's implied to be the only one who suspects Sauron is returning. This fits with her portrayal in the Hobbit movie (though hopefully she'll do less teleporting and flirting with wizards here), and also with her status as the one who turned Annatar away at the gates of Lindon in the Legendarium - an act that mirrors her uncle's rejection of Melkor, come to think of it. The first episode seems to be named for this - it's called Shadow of the Past. - For some reason, "her warnings set her adrift, literally and figuratively". The implication, I guess, is that she probably gets sacked from the army and goes wandering, until: - In Episode Two, she winds up half-drowned on a raft in the middle of the Great Sea, with a scruffy mortal. His name is Halbrand, which is probably Sindarin, and hilariously could mean "Tall, really tall". - They describe a scene that I think takes place on the raft: "We’re doing this close-up where Galadriel’s face fills the screen and she cries, and she decides: I have to fight." Not gonna lie, that doesn't sound great, but that could just be shoddy description. - Eventually she winds up back in Lindon, where she has a "reunion" with Elrond. I think we see three different costumes for her through the article, so at least they're not keeping an identical look everywhere she goes. ~~~ Looking at this through the lens of the time-compression they've talked about, there's nothing too outrageous here. Galadriel in the days of the Trees is an impetuous young woman who will happily ignore everyone's advice to do what she wants/what she thinks is right. Galadriel in the late Third Age is a dignified Elvenqueen of great power who rarely leaves her borders. The story "The Rings of Power" is telling is how she got from one to the other - and, of course, how she wound up as the very first person to be gifted a Ring. The one big red flag is the implication of exile. It's possible they're actually describing something else - maybe she's trying to sail to Tol Fuin to investigate something to do with Sauron - but if she is kicked out... what are the odds that a Gil-Galad of any possible lineage would drive out the eldest remaining member of the House of Finwe? I don't like that implied plot point, and hope I'm misreading. And yes, the other big flag is the "her brother" mention. I've seen rumours that Finrod is in the first episode, hence my concern; but set against that we have the teaser image of the Trees, plus rumours about the Helkaraxe. It's possible that the first episode includes a compressed retelling or flashback(s) to the First Age, and that Finrod's death (done correctly) is a part of that. hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Huinesoron; 02-10-2022 at 10:21 AM. Reason: Analysis. |
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A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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When I saw the article (I have not been keeping tabs on the news at all, but there are people around me who tend to keep up more with the pulse of the time), I knew this might be the time 'Downs might liven up a bit and decided to take part in the anticipated trend.
I will try to be brief (good luck to me...). My reaction to the article can be summed up succintly like this: Seeing the pictures of Galadriel and other Halbasomethings: knee-jerk reaction that this is going to be terrible. The Dwarf and Pseudo-Aragorn are straightaway unimaginative copies from PJ, while Galadriel & Disa look like generic fantasy women from a D&D handbook illustrations (something like human [!!] paladin/dwarf fighter or maybe cleric, respectively). Elrond may be the only one who seems okay (but also kind of "meh", nothing in particular either way). But seriously Galadriel's armoured look must be the most "why?" to me (to be fair, her "water" look too. My first reaction upon seeing the article's featured photo was "do they have Goldberry?!??"). Like Hui said, Galadriel being young and somewhat more in-action and even brazen and all is very much in character, but the first impression is... not like this, PJ's Haldir of Tarth. But. But these are all aesthetics and we all know that aesthetics differ, and *I* know that *nothing* will ever be up to my aesthetics, likely. It could likely be worse. (But it could be more imaginative, if nothing else.) Upon reading the text, however, my impressions became... better? Mostly because they seem like they are trying hard and there was the reassurance that this won't become "a Game of Thrones", plus various things fans have feared (even here). At the same time, it will, inevitably, be "a Game of Thrones" at least in the "generic fantasy nowadays" (my assumption), "political plotting" (actually stated in the article)-sense. Still. It can be good, it can be bad. Very little to judge, objectively, and I emphasise once again, considerably LESS threatening than I anticipated. Those who know my absolute aversion to all adaptations may wonder what that means. I am wondering too. Or perhaps I am getting soft. Quote:
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Sidenote: I wonder how many people are going to "ship it", especially those who don't know about Celeborn. Quote:
When the era comes that movies won't be full of these terrible "Hollywood pathos"-quotes, I will rejoice. *** Which incidentally brings me - and this is a more major sidenote - to one realisation, with which I could conclude: the PJ films, for all that I disliked about them, even The Hobbit, had one tremendous advantage. Large part of the script were things quoted straight from Tolkien, written by Tolkien himself. This TV adaptation won't have the same advantage at all. It likely might attempt to emulate the FILM way of speaking, for that matter, at best. Unless of course Mr. Bezos managed to dig up some blessed talent, but somehow I am not holding my hopes high.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories Last edited by Legate of Amon Lanc; 02-10-2022 at 11:05 AM. |
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Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
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I started writing a commentary on the article on the other thread, but I'll post my scrambled rant here instead:
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Furthermore, I'm not sure what to make of the Estate's involvement in this. They seem to have made a full 180. Did they finally get so much money? Has the estate board changed? Or are they adapting to a new era and new ideas? I have to say I haven't been following the Tolkien Estate at all recently, but as a (relatively ![]()
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Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
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Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,857
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The Scope
So what is the scope of this series? Weirdly, Vanity Fair repeat a claim that I think can't possibly be true:
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![]() Whatever the source material, this series is going to have a broad scope. They have 22 "stars"; even allowing for many of them to appear in pairs, that's a lot of storylines to play with. (It's also a weird number, because there are 23 character posters; is one of them a duplicate character? Did they really like a minor character's design?) The list of locations spans most of Middle-earth: Numenor, Lindon, presumably Eregion, Khazad-dum, and various undefined places that are probably further east. And then there's the plot. I've already noted that they're condensing everything down to one mortal lifetime. That... yeah, that sounds bad, but what does it actually mean? - Celebrimbor lives at the same time as Isildur. It's wrong, but I don't think it impacts either of their stories. Numenor was happy to go about its business basically ignoring Lindon; I doubt they'll care that Eregion is suddenly there too. - Sauron isn't on the world stage until after Numenor is already overshadowed, OR the shadow grows over Numenor very rapidly. The former would be absolutely fine - the whole point of the Numenor tale is that the darkening has nothing to do with the Dark Lord (at least until they bring him there). The latter would be very annoying - it smacks of the darkening of Mirkwood in The Hobbit movies, which happened so suddenly that a hedgehog got injured by it. - Galadriel's quest against "the last remnants" of the evil armies looks quite daft, OR the Second Age is only a century or two long. Again, the latter would be really irritating, but the former might work quite well. If Galadriel's activities as described in the article aren't against the participants in a war that just finished, but consist of her scouring the countryside for Orcs and going on about shadows three thousand years after the War of Wrath... then I can understand a little better why nobody listened to her. - And... that's... it? The various stories of the Second Age (forging of the Rings, Numenorean settlements in Middle-earth, Akallabeth) don't actually interact with each other much, so I don't think things will break too much by running them all concurrently. Though it does annoy me, not gonna lie. So... in that context, what are they doing with the plot? They say that it's all about building up to the forging and gifting of the Rings, with the goal being to establish who the various cultures who received them actually were. So I imagine we'll see a lot of disparate plotlines at first, in different corners of Middle-earth, all of them eventually converging on Celebrimbor's forge. And yes, that means some of the mortal characters will almost certainly become Nazgul. Halbrand and Bronwyn are the two mortals named in the article (and Isildur, but please, no); I bet at least one of them gets a Ring.* (*"But the Nazgul are all male!" Yes, and Galadriel is an elven-king under the sky.) And then there's the weirdly disconnected bits of plot. There's a photo of two nomad hunters wearing giant antlers on their back in a landscape filmed a lot cooler than the other images. There's talk of two Harfoots finding a mysterious stranger "whose origin promises to be one of the show’s most enticing enigmas". How does this fit into the larger plot? Presumably it will, but it's hard to guess how. Actually, the Harfoots ("HarFEET!") sound like fun; they're described as "play[ing] out a kind of Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead story in the margins of the bigger quests". So they're there, but have no actual plot relevance - they're just witnessing larger events and not really knowing what's going on. And just for fun, the pull-quote that's going to have us all pulling our hair out: Quote:
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,093
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Side note: is all this stuff about Galadriel and drowning going to explain why she got Nenya? If yes, I'm going to facepalm very hard. I'm already visualising her doing some kind of "water magic"... ![]() Quote:
(Side note: George R.R. Martin is no wordsmith like Tolkien, but you could just tell which episodes of Game of Thrones were written by him by the very recognisable way the characters spoke. Those episodes were much closer in tone to the books. Tolkien didn't write any episodes of The Rings of Power. I don't have high hopes for anyone else getting the tone right. Think of the PJ movies. Some of the added dialogue fits in quite seamlessly - at least in the ears of a fan who is no English language scholar - while some feels like a slap in the face. Tolkien would not have made Aragorn say "Let's hunt some Orc". That particular quote is probably a deliberate stylistic change of register for effect, but the thought of a whole Tolkien series sounding like a Hollywood blockbuster makes me suffer.)
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Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
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A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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But seeing epically fully-crewed Khazad-Dûm, for sure! If it's done well... Quote:
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Sidenote: I see that they are not yet showing Sauron/Annatar. Probably an intentional move and a good one, makes me only more curious. THAT may be one of the things that will determine whether it's good or not. (At least I hope he isn't going to be portrayed by Benedict Cumberbatch. But I think that time when you opened a cupboard and he was there has passed. It would be supercool if actually Sauron was played by multiple people, "outfitting" himself to seem more pleasant to the respective peoples he talked with. That would be - with a bit of an artistic license - canon, and pretty cool.) Quote:
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And indeed as for female Ringwraith, the good ol' I.C.E. back in the 80s used to have a certain Adûnaphel as one of them, and I was fine with that pseudocanon. But Isildur - please never! ![]()
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,857
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-- except that Artanis was born under the light of the Trees, which I have always pictured as the biggest generational shift in Elvish history. They'd better not play a romance angle, though. ![]() hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#9 |
Dead Serious
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![]() If they really are going to condense the timeline of the 2nd Age into Isildur's lifespan AND if they're going for "young, impetuous, not yet wise old Galadriel" then, assuming I'm right that they won't want to start with Galadriel already being a mother, is to pull a "Renesmee." I've got to say, I'm sort of relishing just how divergent things are already appearing (the time crunch is THE thing that has my goat here) and I'm kind of rooting for it to be a completely unTolkienian travesty. Which is not exactly *charitable* of me, but it's easy to root against Amazon and is a lot easier to mentally prepare for than hoping against hope it'll somehow accord with the Spirit of Tolkien.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
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After I started writing and had to step away 3 times in a row, with my attempt at a post disappearing, I will quit trying to do anything lengthy. Besides, I feel like most things have already been said and reacted to, and, well, here's one more voice in the chorus.
I wish they had less canon in there - or, rather, didn't try to put in so mucb canon. They could have had a great show with mostly new characters and a couple Tolkien ones to keep the ties to the fandom. It wouldn't be Tolkien, but it would have the potential to be a decent story in its own right, using the legendarium as a fanfic landscape. But they had to have ALL the characters, and ALL AT ONCE, and doing ALL THE THINGS that are thought to pizzazz a show, and that just doesn't work. Instead of being cool, it ruins existing Tolkien. Don't force a square peg into a round hole, whittle yourself a round one. Quote:
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Moosepeople. Moosepeople. Moople. Meople. What??? Quote:
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...Got to the picture of Halbarad... Halbard... Hal... with the T-shirt. Indeed, what's up with the T-shirt? And, speaking of costumes, I wasn't a fan of the faces on the Sylvan Elves's armour either. Quote:
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,857
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The Sources
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If this is true (I'm still not entirely convinced), it's going to punch gaping holes through the plot. - Amandil, Elendil, Isildur and Anarion are all named, and Elendil and his sons are "the last leaders of the Faithful" by the time of the Downfall. So it's clear something happened to Amandil - but there's no indication what. - Isildur's story starts on a ship, borne on the wings of a storm. He is the son of Elendil, founder of Minas Ithil, overthrower of Sauron; he brings various things out of Numenor - the White Tree and the Stone of Erech, and a claim to at least one Palantir - and bickers with the men of the White Mountains. But there is no mention in any of those texts of his life in Numenor - or his rescue of the fruit of the White Tree. - Ar-Pharazon's story is much as we know it, with one gaping exception: he isn't said to marry Tar-Miriel. In fact, Miriel gets exactly one mention in the Appendices, as the daughter of Tar-Palantir (he's basically there in full) from whom Pharazon usurps the sceptre. Her final attempt to appeal to Eru doesn't exist. Meneltarma is just a mountain from which you can see Tol Eressea. - The last years of Numenor lack detail. There is no black temple; the Eagles of the Lords of the West do not fly overhead. Numenorean atrocities in Middle-earth are also downplayed - they just "[held] wide coast-tends in subjection. Atanamir and his successors levied heavy tribute, and the ships of the Númenoreans returned laden with spoil." - The Two Trees make it in (they're at the beginning of the Annals of Numenor in Appendix A; and interestingly RotK claims that the ultimate ancestor of the White Tree was "a fruit of Telperion of many names, Eldest of Trees"), as do the Silmarils; but the First Age largely consists simply of "the hopeless war of the Eldar and the Edain against Thangorodrim, in which they were at last utterly defeated". Elrond at least makes it clear that Thangorodrim was also destroyed! The voyage of Earendil makes it in, but exactly what he accomplished is unclear - the Appendices speak vaguely of "help". - Beren, Luthien, and Finrod get a decent treatment, so I wouldn't be surprised if we saw them. Obviously Aragorn sings and tells of the lovers' meeting, and gives a summary of the tale after that (including Luthien rescuing Beren from Sauron, by name), but he never mentions Finrod. Finrod is attested in the Appendices, as Galadriel's brother and king of Nargothrond, who gave his life to save Beren - but the circumstances of that saving are unmentioned. No Duel of Song, no desperate fight with a werewolf. - Feanor doesn't die. XD He makes the Silmarils and the Palantiri while the Trees are lit, and goes into exile to try and retrieve the Silmarils from Morgoth. Celebrimbor is his descendent, and he wears a star. That's it. That's all you get. He has no named sons. - Gondolin is a hidden city, ruled by Turgon; his daughter Idril marries Tuor, and their son Earendil is born in the city. It has walls - but also, per The Hobbit, its people hunted goblins in the hills. It fights the Goblin Wars, and falls, destroyed by goblins and dragons. - I don't... think the world is flat? The entire description of the downfall of Numenor is: "But when Ar-Pharazôn set foot upon the shores of Aman the Blessed, the Valar laid down their Guardianship and called upon the One, and the world was changed. Númenor was thrown down and swallowed in the Sea, and the Undying Lands were removed for ever from the circles of the world. So ended the glory of Númenor." There may be some oblique reference in LotR itself, but I don't know what. It's going to be interesting to see how they deal with the gaps. The Hobbit was obnoxious in its "sly" nod to the fact that it didn't have access to everything - "You know, I've quite forgotten their names" or whatever; I hope we don't get much of that, or at least that it's done better. (It might be funny to just interrupt anyone who tries to name Celebrimbor's father. ^_^) But I also hope they don't treat "we don't have the rights" to "we don't know" - for instance, by making up a different death for Finrod, or by keeping Feanor alive into the Second Age. Ideally, they would carefully work around the gaps, drawing out every hint they possibly can from the books to fill them. For example, Bilbo's song of Earendil mentions the "Narrow Ice", and implies it's in the north; if you're wary with the dialogue, that lets you show the Exiles in transit, without actually saying what it is (they could just be crossing it for unrelated reasons!). It's a fine line to walk - I imagine you'd want legal advice on what's in-scope - but it would be better than just throwing it all out and saying "Feanor came to Middle-earth in a yellow submarine, and nothing we have says different!" I understand there was a book, back in the pre-Silmarillion days, which tried to draw out all the details of the Elder Days contained in LotR. If they're smart, the writers should have found themselves a copy and stuffed it full of post-it notes. hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#12 |
Auspicious Wraith
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,859
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Ah, hello everyone - nice to see you. And well met, Huinesoron! I can tell I will enjoy your posts. It seems there has been some activity over the last few years which I should catch up on.
More than anything I am inspired to re-read the Sil this year, just to ensure I'm completely prepared to make cranky posts about what the Amazon people did wrong. Because lord knows I'm not gonna do that on reddit...
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Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2012
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Vanity, Vanity, all is Vanity?
I didn't come across the Vanity Fair article itself but only indirectly by way of RT.com:
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"If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -- Tweedledee |
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Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,857
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I actually really like the idea of him as an architect. I mean... someone had to design the Hall of Fire, right? Quote:
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Eitherhow, I don't think it's "diversity for diversity's sake" - I would say it's more "diversity because it gives you more options". It lets you tell different stories, with different resonances with the modern world - and it also lets you hire different actors! If all lead characters had to be white, male, and American, we really would have Benderbatch Cumbleface playing everyone again. (And in a show like this, hordes of white men with brown hair would make it impossible for me to know who anyone was; I'm rubbish at faces.) The reason for highlighting it is that we've finally got society to the point where they will, just about, accept a diverse cast. Go back, what, two, three decades at most, and it becomes something a producer would never even consider, because they "knew" it "wouldn't sell". Well - now it will. Quote:
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(With all these quotes, I feel like I should be voting for a wolf around now!) hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#15 |
Wight
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 118
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I’m honestly surprised at this thread. I would have expected people to be far more hostile and negative than they are. I have to say I’m disappointed. This show will be an absolute garbage fire(and honestly I’d probably rather watch a garbage fire) and you are acting as though it deserves any consideration at all?
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Dead Serious
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Plenty of time AFTER the show comes out to rip on the basis of known facts--there's no reason to do it on the basis of supposition.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
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But the blonde Baratheon example was just an arbitrary reference and joke about why appearances matter, not that Silvan Elves need to have blonde hair. And I think you would agree that there still is a limit to how much you can mess with the outlines we do have before it becomes ridiculous. Like purple hair. Technically, nowhere in Tolkien does it say that it's impossible, but why. (If you haven't seen/read GOT, here is the explanation, spoiler warning: a characters uncovers that every time a dark-haired Baratheon marries a blond spouse, their children are always dark-haired, which proves that the blond children of a current marriage are not legitimate children and heirs of the current Baratheon.. Quote:
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++Meeple? ...or... ++Bumblebee Cabbagepatch? ^.^ Quote:
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![]() P.S.: as an expected but unlooked for benefit of the whole thing, I am very happy that it brought a number of Downers out of slumber even for a little while. So let it not be said that no good may come of evil. ;-)
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#18 | |
Laconic Loreman
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I will perhaps have time to comment with some more thoughts later this weekend, but just popping in to...
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![]() Anyway the buzz around the series, sparked an interest to read the source material again, because I was so unfamiliar with the 2nd Age characters. I think Isildur, Celebrimbor and Galadriel are fascinating and well-written characters. My hope is the series portrays them well. That would be fantastic. My suspicions are it's not much more than a Fool's hope, but I'm not Denethoring around about it. If it's poorly done, and not-Tolkien, then I'll stick with reading Tolkien when I have the interest. But I credit the series buzz for re-igniting my interest to read Tolkien's "earlier" tales. Also, seconding your comment about Huey's posts. (Not to make him feel like this is a game of WW any more than he might already feel ![]()
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A Voice That Gainsayeth
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In fact, Halbenstein and Brontosaurella et al. are more or less whom I imagine to be basically some sort of semi-tauriels. In the sense that they will be wannabe-cool and hip made-up characters who might fit better into a D&D campaign. Well, I hope I am wrong and for instance the healer really remains a healer and not an "I am occasionally jumping on walls and throwing knives because that's what film characters do" or somesuch. Quote:
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But yeah. Everyone gets riled up about something, these days it has become almost a hobby, but in my opinion, life is too short to spend it on just hating something. It doesn't leave anything behind. Quote:
On the same note: I have been thinking about Galadriel, and here is the thing - I realised why it was that the first image of the "Joan of Arc"-Galadriel caused such instant intuitive revulsion in me. Ought she be a warrior at all? Nerwen*, sure. But this elf-paladin-level-7? That answer is obviously negative. *(Sidenote: I just realised that if there is any "contemporarily socially debated" topic they could tackle and throw half of the audience out of balance, it could be toying with Galadriel's gender identity. I mean, they would have absolutely genuine canon basis for it, and here they would have the creative space to explore it. I'm thinking stuff like her having this early-Second-Age phase where she would want people to address her as "him", generally dress up very "manlily" and such. Obviously eventually she would in the end settle on the LotR-era, more feminine side of herself. But it would be an interesting character trait. It might cause mixed feelings and not just among those who would have some knee-jerk reaction, but if done right, it could be even a good way to explore Galadriel's personality - and importantly, it would be based on canon. But that is only in the Sil, is it...) And more specifically about "young and brash". I would actually be happy if they took Galadriel's entire personality development arc and somehow stuffed it in here - it would be condensed, and therefore uncanonical, but ultimately faithful to the character. I mean the - what I consider to be the super-amazing thing about Galadriel - the development from her young self to the Galadriel we meet in LotR. Show us how she got there. From the young, "adventurous" voluntary exile to (and this already IS early Second Age) the "I am too proud to accept your forgiveness, I'm staying and founding my own elven kingdom, finally, when finally this Dark Lord is dead!" to eventually the Galadriel who will refuse the Ring. I REALLY hope they keep that dynamic. And they can do it unsubtly and hammer it in our face for all I care, but it has to be there, else I don't see the purpose of making this series at all. But - and that is important at the same time - they should make THAT the focus, this internal dynamic (plus possibly some sort of back-and-forth pining "well perhaps I miss the Undying Lands, 'and by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden Tree'-style") and not push it aside for the sake of some "I will fight!!!" That's not Galadriel. Quote:
I propose having the right, once the series comes out and if there is need for it, to call a deadline.
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Dead Serious
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And, sure, politicking could happen in the Second Age (and I agree that Lindon is the LEAST likely realm for it, thus tacitly agreeing that it might be more likely in Eregion or Lórien or Mirkwood), but the nature of the Elves, i.e. that they are undying within time, combined with their preferred form of government, kingship, leads to a lot of political stability. The Elvish mode of government is that the King as Father of the Clan, and once an Elvish realm gets going and has peace, there aren't really examples of jockeying and conniving for the sake of power. That might have been a bit different at the start of the Second Age, when Lindon was sorting itself out--Celeborn and Galadriel started there with some of the Sindar before moving on, but Elrond never does, and he should have had at least as much a chance, as the Heir of Turgon and Thingol to have done a similar thing if he were interested with a subsection of Elvish society, but Elrond explicitly DOESN'T: he remains with Gil-galad until the founding of Imladris and the his establishment there quite definitively never becomes a Kingdom or lordship, though given his lineage, you'd almost expect the establishment of a separate territory at a far remove to merit at least a "lordship," but that doesn't happen. What does happen? Elrond is clearly still a deputy of Gil-galad, serving as his Herald even in the War of the Last Alliance. Admittedly, after Gil-galad's death, he does make what I call a very shrewd political decision, though it is one that is humble and peace-making: he decides the time of High Kings is over and does not take the title. This could be compromise, because he's not the eldest or most powerful of the remaining Finwëans--that's clearly Galadriel on both fronts--or because he's not a male-line Finwëan, being descended through Idril, or because he's Half-Elven (though that consideration doesn't seem to have mattered with Dior, who was actually mortal, or anywhere else in Elrond's life--and The Nature of Middle-Earth backs up this assertion, generally, in how it talks about his ageiing). I also think it could be a consideration of the fact that Elrond had no interest in going to Lindon and read the tea-leaves that Elvish power would wane, but it's also a political decision: staying in the colony rather than returning to the main homeland. So... I think politician is a bad word to describe an Elf. It's a modern word and in the context of fantasy makes you think of the endless machinations of things like Game of Thrones, and is the kind of neo-Greco-Latinate word that Tolkien would avoid. But, despite that, I think Elrond is something of the ideal politician: a servant, consensus-builder, peace-maker. But tell me that you think that THAT is what Amazon means. X-ed with Legate, as we said in the Elder Days.
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#21 |
Laconic Loreman
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Actually what has me thinking could be one of the more interesting things the show-runners say they are attempting to is about the 2 hobbit characters.
I noted the show runners mentioned the two Harfoots are going to be similar to Rosencrantz and Guildenstern roles, from Tom Stoppard's Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead. If this is true, and they aren't just fooling us, this is an interesting and creative thing to do in my opinion. It's not something that I would call original, because it has been done before and can be fairly common in the fantasy genre, but I think it would be creative to have this in a Tolkien adaptation. What I mean is think about the roles C-3PO and R2-D2 play in Star Wars or the ghost brothers in Stardust. Their roles aren't directly involved in solving problems the protagonists come across. They stand off in the distance and act as commentators to the audience, through their own robot-colored (or ghost-colored) glasses. R2-D2 (at least in the original trilogy) serves as a useful mechanic who does some minor things to help the protagonists out of sticky situations, but particularly C-3PO's role is to simply be a translator. He sits off as an observer and translates information to the audience ("Well, Master Ani has been under a lot of stress lately" or tells us the odds of surviving an asteroid field). As the article mentions, hobbits are noted for being able to avoid the eyes of "big folk" blundering through. So if their roles in the series are indeed to be something like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, or R2-D2 and C-3P0 than that could be rather fitting to use hobbits to fill that role. Think of just how much interest gets sparked by wanting to know what happened to the random fox passing by sleeping hobbits in the Shire. ![]()
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#22 | |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Amazon did a deal with the Estate, but the Estate don't control the rights to the Hobbit nor to LotR. They're with whatever Saul Zaentz's company is called this week. Plus that map of Numenor is straight out of Unfinished Tales; it doesn't appear anywhere else, so Amazon must have at least that much of UT, and that's indisputable. No, more likely to be the opposite: Amazon don't have the Hobbit or LotR, but they do have other material, the full extent of which is currently unknown.
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Shady She-Penguin
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Upon reading all your comments and reflecting on previous fandom experiences, I really think we should take the article - and all other written sources about the show at this point - with a pinch of salt. After all, they are the writers' interpretation, and the writers might not be particularly observant, or good writers, or Tolkien-savvy. Much of the stuff that sounds ridiculous might make more sense when you see the actual show - and vice versa...
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I don't know where I'm going with this rant but maybe partly: I'm European and I'm tired of seeing just racial diversity, I want to see cultural diversity too. Okay that's a whole different issue, but let's unpack that one. I would love to see all the different cultures of Middle-Earth have not only different architecture and costumes, but different customs and beliefs, ways of greeting each other, different values and arts, different foods... From the looks of the pictures we've seen, though, it all looks like one generic fantasyland ie probably one big US in Middle-Earth. (Yes, I know there is cultural diversity within the US as well, but does that ever get represented on mainstream media either? Nope.)
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Laconic Loreman
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The main cringe in the Vanity Fair article was Elrond being described as a "wily-politician." But as you say here perhaps it's best to take what is written about the show with a pinch of salt. One thing I can't ever imagine Elrond being described as is a "wily-politician." Unless if if somehow since he was one of the masterminds behind the "Fool's hope," that his character in the show is savvy and skilled in organizing the resistance against Sauron? And since his involvement in forming the Fellowship was more behind the scenes, we actually see Elrond working "behind the scenes" to organize the resistance against Sauron. I'm not too worried about the picture with the caption of "Elrond and Galadriel's reunion." I think perhaps we all just have The Hobbit movies Galadriel and Gandalf as the first things that come into our heads. I admit those scenes are really clumsy in The Hobbit, but I hardly think kisses on the forehead or "If you need my help, I will come" are overloaded with sexual tension between them. Quote:
What gets me is the criticisms from so-called "fans," (not on this forum) but honestly they're online Ted Sandymans, who then use Peter Jackson as some sort of paragon of faithfulness to Tolkien. I've disagreed with Morth,Kuru, Inzil and countless others here over the years about Jackson's films. Say what you want about their criticisms and pessimism about the Amazon series, but they are just as sharp and on-point to criticize Jackson if he did something similar.
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#25 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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And this is what GOT did do well - it picked up on GRRM's worldbuilding and kept the details. Not just the racial descriptions and costumes, but the religions and customs and accents and legends and histories and sayings and mannerisms. If shows could emulate more of that, instead of sex and swords, they would be better for it. Sex and swords might be GOT's staple, but they weren't what made it a good show. So I could not agree more with you here. Please, show us different cultures!
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#26 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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A return of Princess Xenarwen, with Galadriel wearing armor. Hobbits where none should be. Politically correct racial casting (Dark Elves, LOL!). Beardless dwarf-women.
The only thing that is true with all this nonsense is “Can we come up with the novel Tolkien never wrote?" The answer, of course, is yes, you certainly can come up with a novel that Tolkien never wrote. You can take the worst aspects of Peter Jackson's superfluous and extraneous inanity and make an even worse story that Tolkien wouldn't consider to having anything vaguely to do with his creation. I'm through with this debacle before it even airs.
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#27 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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The only remaining question is whether this is better compared with the Ciurea train wreck of 1917 (600-1000 dead) or the Bihar train wreck of 1981 (200+ confirmed dead, several hundred more presumed killed). The first was a collision, the second went off a cliff.
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#28 |
Wight
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The "Hobbits where none should be" thing needs to be addressed.
There is absolutely nothing in Tolkien stating there were no Hobbits in the Second Age. Quite the opposite, the Of Dwarves and Men essay even explicitly references primitive Hobbit tribes in "unrecorded ages". I'd expected better from posters on this forum. Sigh.
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Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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According to the Tale of Years: Quote:
They didn't even reach Bree until TA 1300. The second entry in the Tale of Years: Quote:
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#30 | |
Wight
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Go on, I'm waiting. Given that I cited Of Dwarves and Men I might have thought that you'd engage reasonably here, but I guess that was expecting too much.
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Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
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Already cited by mhagain, but: Quote:
That's utterly beneath you, but: Quote:
This is the only one you're on anything like solid ground for, citing HoME: Quote:
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(*The first paragraph in Appendix A cites this to him, and implies he told it to Merry and Pippin; the term is "derived", so it doesn't even seem to be a direct quote.) There are certainly things that could be a "debacle". But a fact which is explicitly stated to be the subject of rumours and misconceptions, and which is always sourced to specific people (rather than being in Tolkien's authorial/authoritative voice) turning out to be... a rumour or misconception, isn't one of them. (It would be very pleasing to see Disa having to travel, and dressing herself up as a male dwarf to do it, to reach the precise meaning of the Appendix A claim.) hS
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#32 | |
Emperor of the South Pole
Join Date: Dec 2002
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I myself have always had mixed thoughts on this project. the recent reveals have moved me from the 'somewhat pessimistic' zone to the 'cautiously optimistic' zone on my tilt-o-meter. Is there things I find annoying? yes. but since Peter Jackson set the standard of wholesale changes to a complete story, I'm willing to give the producers of this project a wide berth in their use of artistic license. |
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#33 | ||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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When I said there were no Hobbits west of the Misty Mountains (you know, where almost the entirety of the action in the early Second Age occurs), perhaps I should be more specific. 3300 years before the Hobbits are recorded actually entering Eriador, they had not even gotten to the Vales of Anduin. They are most likely east even of Greenwood the Great. Nowhere in the theater of action, no real reason for them to be appearing. The Dunedain don't note their appearance for 3300 years, the Elves are unaware of their existence 3300 years before they entered Eriador, and Treebeard doesn't even include them in his list of creatures -- even though he and the Ents searched for years for the Entwives east of the Misty Mountains. Tolkien mentions the Hobbits as follows: Quote:
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#34 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
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I'm guessing the antler-carrying nomads are meant to be fairly eastward too - that would tie in with the Hobbit movies giving Thranduil a moose for no apparent reason - and the trailer seems to imply the Harfeet are in their general area. (Plus, of course, individual Hobbits could go where their culture didn't - and not enter the records, because they're very good at going unseen...) hS
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A Voice That Gainsayeth
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I wondered whether they are supposed to be just some generic "Northmen", as in, denizens of (some part of) Middle-Earth as opposed to the Númenoreans. It also pretty much makes sense that they would be some sort of around-the-Wilderland-area-type-inhabitants who could also get a Nazgul or two recruited from among themselves (or are they Men of the White Mountains? FUTURE GREEN ARMY OF FLUBBER? Incidentally I had completely forgotten that this plot exists and if the series is not going to address it I am going to eat my hat!). Speaking of the trailer: I was surprised how close the aesthetics (or at least those we have seen) are to the PJ take on it. What looks like Lindon (?) is effectively copypaste of the last scene of LotR with more architecture (which would make sense). That peculiar elf in golden armour who looks like Jamie Lannister fighting Orcs (flashback of Galadriel's brother??? Hope not) looks horribly Haldirish. The selection of scenes for the trailer is obviously to evoke the familiar movie LotR feel in the target audience, but it is closer than I thought. Which, everything else about the series aside, is kind of a pity because I had hoped that this might bring some slightly fresher, new aesthetic (but then again not the D&D aesthetic that it seemed to me on first sight, so this is marginally better than that. Same old, but better than the D&D handbook style). Quote:
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But imagine if Frodo and co. had not had the Ring but just went to Minas Tirith for a road trip. Would people have noticed their presence? About as much as a travelling circus. So I am not really very worried about the Hobbits (or Harfoot, as it were) appearing. (Yet.) Look, it could have been much worse. Compare to any LotR video game where Hobbits run amok slaughtering the Witch-King of Angmar and the other nazgul by dozens (intentional use of words). I am doubtful about the series as much as the next guy but I'm also trying to be objective and sober in my judgment of it.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#36 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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"Stretching the Bounds of Credulity -- Or, How the Half-assed Halfling Hath Happened Here"
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#37 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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I have now read TheOneRing.net's news story/press release on the Vanity Fair article on the Amazon Lord of the Game Of Ring Thrones, and have to conclude cynically that TORN has become nothing but a paid shill. (Which I suspected during the PJ movie days).
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#38 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Actually, there is no record of Halflings anywhere until they appear in the eaves of Greenwood several centuries into the 3rd Age. There is no evidence for them in the 2nd whatsoever
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#39 | |
Laconic Loreman
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#40 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Personally, of all the new characters and concepts and plot (presumably - because again, this is speculation) introduced by the show, I find the hobbits / Harfeet least disturbing. Why? Because I see a way for them to remain a sort of small side reference without turning the whole thing into Morthoron's worst nightmare.
![]() ![]() I have much less faith in equally wholesome headcanon for the named canonical characters. Galadriel in particular. I think that if anything will disrupt the tranquility of my anticipation of the show, it will be her storyline. (I mean, it's a zen born largely of indifference, but now they're pushing things into it that I do care about, so it makes sense).
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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