Sindar, Dwarves, and Glass - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elianna · 02-07-2005, 04:32 PM

In The Silmarillion it states:

Quote:

But in Helevorn the first element is Sindarin heledh 'glass', taken from Khuzdul kheled...

At first I was confused, "Why would the Elves steal a word from the Dwarves?" Then I read up on the Sindar, and learnt that the Sindar and the Dwarves were friends.

So then I wondered, "Wouldn't they already have a word for glass?" Then the idea hit me: Do you think it's possible that the Dwarves taught the Sindar how to make glass, and so that's the reason they took the word?

Kuruharan · 02-07-2005, 05:09 PM

That is the obvious answer that comes to mind.

Saurreg · 02-08-2005, 09:46 AM

That could very well be the case.

The Sindar were a rustic people compared to the Noldor. I would suspect their crafts to be less advance than that of the dwarves.

**lindil** · 02-08-2005, 12:51 PM

Excellent deduction. Another possibility is that Aule and Co. had glass in Valinor and that the word, via Valinorean via Aule's teaching the Dwarves got glass making and the name there. Or Melian recalled the [hypothetically Valinorean] from her time in the Undying Lands...

Kuruharan · 02-08-2005, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Or Melian recalled the [hypothetically Valinorean] from her time in the Undying Lands...

I think if that were the case then it would have been cited as such.

"Yet another example of the mystically magical wonderfulness of Melian the Maia."

Formendacil · 02-08-2005, 01:29 PM

I personally should consider it likely, if not certain, that the Dwarves introduced the Sindar to glass. After all, they also introduced them to chainmail, and seem to have been the first ones to make them swords (Telchar, a Dwarf of this era, is known to have been the maker of Narsil, which I think we can guess came to the House of Andunie via inheritance from the First Age).

However, it was not a one-way street. The Sindar and the Dwarves did a great deal of commerce in these early years, to their mutual profit (seeing the Silmarillion, the accounts of the building of Menegroth). Surely there would have been more than just an exchange of products. As the chainmail shows, there would also have been an exchange of ideas. It is entirely possible therefore, although not necessaily conclusive, that the Dwarves invented glass, or introduced it to the Sindar.

02-07-2005, 05:09 PM	#2
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,589	What light through yonder window breaks? It is the forge lamp... That is the obvious answer that comes to mind. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

02-08-2005, 09:46 AM	#3
Saurreg Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: In self imposed exile... Posts: 465	That could very well be the case. The Sindar were a rustic people compared to the Noldor. I would suspect their crafts to be less advance than that of the dwarves. __________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. " ~Voltaire

02-08-2005, 12:51 PM	#4
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	or... Excellent deduction. Another possibility is that Aule and Co. had glass in Valinor and that the word, via Valinorean via Aule's teaching the Dwarves got glass making and the name there. Or Melian recalled the [hypothetically Valinorean] from her time in the Undying Lands... __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

02-08-2005, 01:29 PM	#6
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,326	I personally should consider it likely, if not certain, that the Dwarves introduced the Sindar to glass. After all, they also introduced them to chainmail, and seem to have been the first ones to make them swords (Telchar, a Dwarf of this era, is known to have been the maker of Narsil, which I think we can guess came to the House of Andunie via inheritance from the First Age). However, it was not a one-way street. The Sindar and the Dwarves did a great deal of commerce in these early years, to their mutual profit (seeing the Silmarillion, the accounts of the building of Menegroth). Surely there would have been more than just an exchange of products. As the chainmail shows, there would also have been an exchange of ideas. It is entirely possible therefore, although not necessaily conclusive, that the Dwarves invented glass, or introduced it to the Sindar. __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.