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#1 |
Itinerant Songster
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Did Denethor see in the Palantir that Frodo was captured?
It was pointed out in a book I'm reading that Denethor says something very suggestive that he "knew" that the Ring had fallen into enemy hands, and this was the reason for his despair.
Obviously, by this time he did know about the Ring, and surely he was peeking into the Palantir on a regular basis. But would he have seen Frodo captured? Would he have known to look? How much control did Sauron have over what Denethor saw? And if Denethor saw this, how is it that the Dark Lord did not? |
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#2 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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Fascinating topic lmp
![]() Several possibilities though to why Sauron did not find out about the Ring, if indeed Denethor had found Frodo via the palantir. One, I think is, because when Frodo was captured, he did not have the Ring, but Sam did. Therefor, even if Denethor saw this, I'm not sure how Sauron could have been tipped off the captured hobbit has a Ring. It may also explain why the Mouth believes the captive to be spies for Gondor. If Sauron discovered Denethor's snooping, it might have led him to believe "Oh, Denethor is checking in on the spies he sent in, well I have them captured now." Also, as the UT notes, the palantiri were only a minor part of Sauron's plan, to weaken the leadership within Minas Tirith: Quote:
And as a final point, Denethor did inherit the right to use the stone, and his will was still very strong. Stronger then any of Sauron's servants, so it was Sauron himself who the UT notes was always trying to "wrench" the stone out of Denethor's control. And Denethor was pretty resilient: Quote:
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#3 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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I second Boro. It's a neat point, and I'd love to know the actual reference. I think that Denethor did not have to check the palantir to believe that the hobbit was captured - Faramir told him that a) Frodo is a Halfling, not a warrior, who b) is about to just walk into Mordor, c) taking the path of the infamous Cirith Ungol. The chances of him getting through look like they are below zero (which makes us appreciate Sam's and Frodo's - but especially Sam's - deeds even more, though that is beside the point).
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#4 | |||
Gruesome Spectre
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I would think the suggestive quotes are these after Faramir's wounding by the Nazgűl: Quote:
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My opinion is that Denethor cast his gaze upon Cirith Ungol (knowing from Faramir that Frodo had gone that way) and saw Frodo lying in the Tower. With the knowledge that Frodo had had the Ring, added to Faramir's condition, no wonder the guy went insane.
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#5 |
Itinerant Songster
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You have it right, Inziladun. Nice work. I never seem to have my books with me when I get online.
![]() So it appears (if I may use language so suggestive) that Tolkien covered his tracks on this one. Sauron apparently had so much else he was paying attention to, and did not consider how invaluable were the Palantiri, and to make matters worse (for Sauron that is), Denethor was strong enough of will that Sauron had to wrench the stone FROM him. I had not thought of it that way. So it is indeed apparent that Sauron did NOT know that the captive in Cirith Ungol was indeed the Ringbearer. And here I thought that just maybe I'd found something by which Tolkien had not niggled enough. Silly me. |
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#6 | |
Itinerant Songster
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What got me going in the first place is apparently an error by Tom Shippey in J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century, toward the end of his chapter on the mythic dimension, where he says,
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#7 | |
Pilgrim Soul
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"And we'vestruck a bit of luck at last :got something that Lugburz wants.....no I don't know' said Gorbag's voice.'The messages go through quicker than anythong could fly as a rule. But I don't enquire how it's done. Safest not to..... about an hour ago .. A message came 'Nazgul uneasy. Spies feared on stairs. Douuble Vigilance' ..but my patrol wasn't ordered out for another day due to the Great Signal going up ,,, and then they couldn't get Lugburz to pay attention for a good while I'm told" Shagrat didn't have to reach Barad Dur. Details were to be sent in advance by this undisclosed message system.
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#8 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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To make sure I understand, are you suggesting that Sauron did send Denethor a message, perhaps with a vision of the captured "spy"? But for what purpose: merely to dishearten him, thinking indeed that Frodo was just on an important scouting mission for Gondor? Why would Sauron think that Denethor even needed such a spy anyway, since he knew Denethor to be in possession of a palantír himself?
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#9 |
Pilgrim Soul
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No I am merely saying that the date of Shagrat's reaching Barad Dur with the artefacts doesn't seem to be crucial. If Sauron knew the details of Frodo's clothing and the staff of Lebethron that Faramir gave him and which was left by him then that would have been enough to convince Denethor maybe.
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#10 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Denethor was probably checking on Cirith Ungol without any prompting from Sauron, as he would have been interested in the status of the Ring himself.
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#11 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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I do not think the Stone would lie to him as Gandalf says the Stones of Seeing, "do not lie, and not even the Lord of Barad-dur can make them do so. He can, maybe, by his will choose what things shall be seen by weaker minds, or cause them to mistake the meaning of what they see." [RotK, p. 170] When Gandalf spoke of the Stone of the White Tower he said that the Stewards thought they only knew of it. But Gandalf knew they held it. Denethor used it, "as the peril of his realm grew... and was deceived: more than once, I guess, since Boromir departed... he saw nonetheless only those things which that Power permitted him to see... the vision of the great might of Mordor that was shown to him fed the despair of his heart until it overthrew his mind." [RotK, p. 145] I do not think anything he saw was false but he apparently did not get a complete picture of it and only saw what did not help his hope. Gandalf said that when Denethor was more wise he, "did not presume to use it, nor to challenge Sauron, knowing the limits of his own strength." [RotK, p. 145]
Last edited by Belegorn; 07-24-2012 at 12:42 AM. |
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#12 |
Itinerant Songster
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Well done Belegorn. This quote - from LotR - raises my issue back up again. As much as Tolkien may have tried to cover his tracks, have we a hole in the plot here? Or is there a reasonable/plausible explanation why Denethor could see Frodo as captive, knowing about the Ring, and Sauron not knowing about the Ring even while controlling what Denethor sees?
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#13 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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I go back to the question of why Sauron would have thought that the knowledge of Frodo's capture would have been of any special heartbreak to Denethor. From Sauron's own demonstrable actions, it seems clear that he really did not view Frodo as anyone but a spy. There were so many other things Sauron could have "allowed" Denethor to see in order to create despair: the marching of the Haradrim to Mordor; maybe legions of Orcs overshadowed by wingéd Nazgűl; the Black sails of the Corsairs. Why would Sauron bother with making Denethor look at one little hobbit? Also, Pippin's use of the Orthanc-stone was only a little over a week before Denethor's "final straw" viewing, March 5th. Gandalf surmised that that event would cause Sauron to be preoccupied with Saruman in Isengard. Sauron would have known that the hobbit in Cirith Ungol could not possibly be Pippin, so I think Sauron might have been more likely to associate Frodo with whatever had happened to Saruman, rather than Denethor.
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#14 |
Itinerant Songster
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And maybe Sauron's control of Denethor's viewing amounts to "Only let him view my strongholds, my places of power, my actions that make it look bad for Gondor." Certainly don't show any weaknesses. Which brings a question: I wonder if Sauron believed himself to have any weaknesses, other than the absence of the Ring?
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#15 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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I think any weakness Sauron saw was tied into the Ring. He did not believe anyone could destroy the Ring and it was not destroyed voluntarily. Gollum fell into the pit and Frodo's will could not bring him to do so. So he was looking at it from the angle that his enemies would try to use the power of the Ring to overthrow him.
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#16 |
Haunting Spirit
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Tale of Years (Appendix B) says that Shagrat arrived at Barad-dűr with Frodo’s cloak, mail-shirt, and sword on March 17. Even if we assume the Nazgűl that descended upon Cirith Ungol informed Sauron about the spy captured outside Shelob’s Lair and his escape in the company of someone else, there is no indication that Sauron understood its significance until Frodo put on the Ring in Sammath Naur. March 17 was four days after Faramir fell outside the walls of Minas Tirith, and Frodo fell wounded by Shelob. (Reader's Companion adds that Sauron had Shagrat executed.) Sauron’s actions indicate he believed Aragorn (or Gandalf) had the Ring: it readily explained Saruman’s defeat; thus Sauron’s haste to blockade Minas Tirith before Aragorn could arrive.
Frodo was wounded on the morning of March 13 (Hammond and Scull provide a synopsis of Tolkien’s notes on dates and times in Reader's Companion pp 486-487) and taken by Orcs “in the late afternoon or evening.” Faramir was wounded at about the same time, in the last hour of the day (“It drew now to evening by the hour…”, “Siege of Gondor”, p 819). After that, many residents of Minas Tirith saw in the Tower of Ecthelion “a pale light that gleamed and flickered from the narrow windows for a while, and then flashed and went out.” I agree with Inziladun that Cirith Ungol is one obvious place for Denethor to scry with the palantír. To Denethor’s credit, he give nothing away to Sauron. Had he exposed his knowledge of the Hobbits in Mordor, this tale would have a different end. |
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#17 |
Haunting Spirit
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I have a theory that Sauron never contemplated that the Ring was in the hands of the Hobbits until he 'saw' Pippin in Minas Tirith through the Palantir Denethor was using. He may have come to know that a Hobbit was living in Minas Tirith by forcing Denethor to give up information against his will, probing his mind or thoughts. I think Sauron thought the attack would come from Minas Tirith rather than through the backdoor, he allowed Denethor to use the Palantir, not because a mortal had the resilience to resist but to gain information and spread disinformation like propaganda. No mortal could resist a direct atack from Sauron, only Aragorn had the mental strength and that not for long on his own.
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#18 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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I'm not sure that Sauron could have forced Denethor to give up information against his will. The Stones were his to use by right and he had long practice in their use and obviously was strong-willed.
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#19 |
Haunting Spirit
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sorry I cant agree. Denethor lost his wits trying to fence with Sauron, he was mortal, even Aragorn wouldnt risk it.
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#20 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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I believe that Denethor could and did resist Sauron for a good while. However, his mental defense couldn't have lasted too long. I don't think he gave away too much information over the years of using the Palantir. He was weakened by the end - but that's because of all his previous hard-won victories. Aragorn isn't the only strong-willed guy around.
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#21 | |
Haunting Spirit
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As for Pippin I got confused with the palantir of Saruman, but I just assumed when Sauron saw Pippin he didnt know it wasnt a Baggins he was looking at, just a Hobbit. |
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#22 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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I don't believe Sauron "let" Denethor use the palantir so much as caught him at it. The Palantir was more Denethor's right than Sauron's. Sauron may have had some control over what Denethor saw, but Denethor's right and will gave him more personal control. There is no indication that Denethor contended directly with Sauron through the Palantir, unlike Saruman. The Palantir of Orthanc carried Pippin's perception directly to the mind of Sauron, as if it was long accustomed to going there.
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#23 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dűm
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According to Aragorn himself, he did use the Stone and revealed himself to Sauron before they took the Paths of the Dead. Quote:
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#24 |
Haunting Spirit
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Fair enough, but Denethor was pretty much teetering on the edge by the time Faramir was injured. So why the sudden collapse of his sanity into madness? Only a person who has been worn down by great peril snaps like that. Before Fara mirs injury Denethor had been in full control of his mind and was defending the city with some ability, he wasnt giving up to despair like film Denethor, so my question is would the apparent 'death' of Faramir, even though it must have been possible to ascertain whether he had a pulse or not, been enough to make Denethor go mad? My view is the long struggles with the palantir corrupted his mind, letting Saurons messages of despair fill him with dread. Denethor was a mortal man and not Young, he was still strong but not as strong as Aragorn mentally. After all Aragorn had experience of toughing it out in the wilds, good battle training, Denethor was used to an easy life in an Ivory tower.
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#25 | ||
Shade of Carn Dűm
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When Gandalf and Pippin arrive at Minas Tirith Pippen takes note of Denethor during his battle of wills with Gandalf.
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However, Gandalf makes the claim that "the vision of the great might of Mordor that was shown to him fed the despair of his heart until it overthrew his mind." [RotK; The Pyre of Denethor] I would not say Denethor had it easy. Gondor was ever at war and I would assume that Denethor was a captain in the armies of Gondor under his father, just as his sons were under him. The Stewards, it seems, as with the kings, were always part of the army. You have compared Denethor to Aragorn before and it is said that they were as like as to the nearest of kin. So physically and mentally it would appear they were very much alike and not quite so different [Appendix A; The Stewards]. They were even about the same age.
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#26 |
Haunting Spirit
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I think Faramir was like Aragorn, but Boromir was more like Denethor, I seem to remember thinking that Denethor resented Faramir this likeness to the kings of Gondor. Denethor was a powerful and kingly man, but it was mostly pride imo.
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#27 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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He resented Faramir because he was like Aragorn. Bormoir was not like Denethor. Denethor was actually more like Faramir, he just liked Boromir. Faramir and Denethor acted more like Númenóreans. They were warriors and loremasters. Funny enough he berated Faramir for this apparently not realizing that he was seeing himself in Faramir, but he saw Aragorn, his opponent in Faramir. Again, keep in mind, "he was as like to Thorongil [Aragorn] as to one of nearest kin" [Appendix A; The Stewards] All three of these High Men were similar, but Faramir reminded him of Aragorn because of his High Númenórean bearing and friendship with Gandalf, like Aragorn. Finally:
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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#28 | ||
Shade of Carn Dűm
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#29 |
Haunting Spirit
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Denethor may be all that is noble, but he did resent Faramir and Aragorn, and thats pride, pride that he shared with Boromir, so in that way Denethor was in character more like Boromir than Faramir.
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#30 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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I think it is implied he did. What he says to Pipin certainly gives me the impression he has seen as much.
'Comfort me not with wizards!' said Denethor. 'The fool's hope has failed. The enemy has found it, and now his power waxes; he sees our very thoughts and all we do is ruinous.' |
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#31 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dűm
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I do not doubt Denethor had similarities with both of his sons.
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#32 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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All of this bring up an interesting field for speculation. When Denethor views the Black Ships sailing up the Anduin in the Palantir, how much exactly did he see, or more to the point, if Sauron is controlling what the Palantir shows him by this point what exactly is he showing Denethor? Objectively, it is reasonable to assume Denethor saw exactly what he claimed to have seen, black ships sailing up the Anduin, and interpreted it (perfectly logically, given the circumstances) as meaning the Corsairs were sailing up from Umbar to Join the battle on Sauron's side. In and of itself this would be perfectly good reason to break down (especially since it would mean Lebennen would be enemy controlled by now, and Minas Tirith now more or less wholly surrounded with no way to flee left. But , given the kind of man Denethor is, I wonder if at this point Sauron, despairing with breaking him for good by displays of Mordor's might might, and havin some idea of how Denthor thinks. have tried a new tactic, one that actually worked, namely playing into Denthor's nature by letting (or making) him see what is ACTUALLY happening i.e letting him seen Aragorn routing the Corsairs and setting sail. By doing this he would basically be showing Denthor that, even if he could repulse Mordor's army, he would STILL "lose everything"; the king was coming back. I Denethor saw the Dead Men obeying Aragorn/Thorongil's orders, he would no longer have any doubts that Aragorn was the King, and any hopes he might of had of disputing the claim post battle would have evaporated. Objectively, Sauron probably knows that in the long run, while Denthor's death would weaken Minas Tirith, it alone could not make the city simply fall; that there would be others to take over command, that the Men of Rohan would be arriving at Pellenor soon, and (eventually) Aragorn himself was showing up and what that would likely mean. On the other hand, if he could play into Denthors fears so much as to focus on eliminating Aragorn as soon as he arrived or even go so far as to subtly insinuate himself deep enough in Dethethor's mind to, in a virtual sense, suggest the following "You know, if you turn traitor and ally Minas Tirith WITH me, we can get rid of this last threat to your rule and you and your sons can rule the city forever unthreatened. My servant made your son sick, do you not believe I could make him well again. Continue to oppose me and you are doomed, one way or another. Join me and your line is secure. I'm not all that confident Sauron would be that subtle at this point, but it Occurs to me that, from Denthor's POV, Aragorn's coming is as much "destruction" as the Corsairs.
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#33 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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But, Alfirin, if this hypothetical plan had "actually worked", Denethor would in fact have turned traitor, right?
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#34 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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I merely put the above as a possible scenario; a reason why it might have been in Sauron's interest to have shown Denethor events as they actually were in Umbar, as opposed to how Denethor might have logically expected them to be (i.e. Umbar just fine, and the corsairs themselves in the boats heading up the Anduin) Heck, for all I know, Sauron could have show Denthor Aragorn and STILL intended Denthor to off himself. He might have just hoped Denthor's pride would drive him to play dog in the manger and set the whole CITY on fire as his pyre, rather than see it fall into hands other than his own, regardless of whom. I also admit that the scenario also has one other flaw as events stand, it requires Denthor to be so deep in his pride he is willing to actually lie to Gandalf and possibly put the city in more jeopardy (in the scenario Denethor would know it was Aragorn on the ships; and that they will get there eventually (whether in vain or not) so telling Gandalf they are enemies accoplishes nothing except spite him.) I just merely wished to suggest that as Sauron 1. Might though is own Palantir viewing know of what Aragorn did. 2. Is not above using guile as well as brute force might concoct a way to spin this possibly significant setback in his plans (With a large part of the people of Umbar of Black Numenorean decent, I imagine Sauron might consider them "elites" among those who serve him, and their loss as a blow of note) into an advantage. |
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#35 | ||
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#36 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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I actually agree that Denethor actually turning traitor is highly unlikely; I was merely suggesting that Sauron had adopted this plan hoping he could turn Denethor traitor, or at least, to set him on some path of action where he would squander what little defensive advantage Minas Tirith in some plan to get rid of his "rival" Aragorn or raze it to the ground just to deny it to another. That latter might be acceptable to Sauron. While he certainly wanted Minas Tirith conquered, I'm not sure if having it still more or less intact would have been as important to him. He probably would have liked to have, as Frodo put it "Two Minas Morgul's grinning out at each other across a barren waste." (or something like that) but I doubt he would consider it essential; one Minas Morgul and a pile of ruins would probably be OK too in his book.
Come to think of it Denethor might have been delusional enough by this point to think Aragorn might not stop the city being destroyed as well, in a literal not metaphorical sense. Old and venerable as Minas Tirith is, given that Aragorn has spent most of his life in the North, Denethor might assume that he plans to let Minas Tirth go to rot and create a new royal seat for himself in Arnor; closer to "home". Gandalf seems OK with letting the city be destroyed, and Aragorn is clearly in league with Gandalf, so maybe he's OK with the end of the city too. |
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#37 |
Haunting Spirit
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Interesting speculations.
I for one think that Sauron used Denethors pride against him. If for example Faramir had had the palantir his lack of pride would have saved him from the folly and madness that overcame Denethor. the pride of Denethor meant that the palantir became like looking through a glass darkly, it obscured and it warped whatever Denethor saw. Faramirs purity would have meant a clear vision. Rather like the pure soul of Frodo meant his heart was not tainted by the Ring until the very end. The seeds of pride ruined many a noble man, it ruined Boromir, it ruined Saruman, it ruined Denethor. |
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#38 | |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 40
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Quote:
This raises another point in my mind. Did Sauron actually know that Aragorn had captured the Corsair ships? It would seem at least at the battle of Pellenor Field, that his troops were wholly unprepared. If Sauron had known, he could have anticipated Aragaorn's arrival by deploying his troops differently. Surely he could have sent a Nazgul to get the message there in time?
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#39 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,036
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I think Sauron did not know. His attention seems to have been so focused on Minas Tirith that he was blind to all else. He knew of Aragorn, of course, but he would have been forgiven for naturally assuming Aragorn would immediately head for Minas Tirith to rally forces against him.
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#40 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
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I suppose it all really hinges on just how Sauron viewed the Corsairs. As I mentioned earlier, he might have considered them particularly elite servants given the strong streak of Black Numenorian blood in them i.e. one of his most beloved. At bare minimum he presumably would have had a messenger sent in order to tell them that the march on Minas Tirith was finally a go and to muster the ships and sail hence. Unless Sauron did not feel such a message would be necessary; that the Corsairs would sail to Minas Tirith of their own accord, either in their hatred of Gondor, their loyalty to him, or their desire to take advantage of the battle to do a little sacking and plundering of their avowed enemy.
Assuming he DID send a message to them, it would seem a bit odd to me that he would not take a quick peek to see how close his Black Armada was to actually making it to the battlefield. Even if HE didn't whoever was in charge at the time (be it the witch king, Gothmog, or some other lesser general responsible for coordinating the forces) would presumably have been appraised that reinforcements for their side were on the way. Especially after the Rohirrim arrive, since such a message might re-hearten Sauron's troops (however much Sauron may have relied on his troops fighting to the death out of fear of him, or because he could sort of puppet them (I'm thinking of the Trolls here.) there are presumably SOME officers among them (probably mostly men) whose battle tactics are a little more complex than "we have the numbers, meele randomly until we out swarm them. If your army is going to use trebuchets, battering rams and cavalry (not to mention barrusry) you sort of have to). So while I agree that it would be logical of Sauron to assume Aragorn would make straight for Minas Tirith, I also think that for him to NOT know what Aragorn did, requires him to be either SO focused on the battlefield neither he nor anyone below him is checking on the locations of the various armies under his banner, or of Sauron seeing the ships and making the exact same error we are supposed to believe Denethor made; that they really ARE the Corsairs. I think he probably DID know, but was so confident in his superior power to assume that a little company of Rangers (even one headed by someone he was as concerned about as Aragorn) would not be enough to turn the tide, that either he would have taken the city by then, and Aragorn would sail up to a Minas Tirith already fallen, or if he didn't that Aragorn's troops would add little to the City's defense and would be ultimately overwhelmed as well, if not in this siege than in the next or the one after etc. (Remember, Gandalf makes it clear that the victory at Pellenor is a temporary one at best, Sauron can easily send more troops.) |
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