the Darkening of Valinor: texts and discussion

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 210</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
I have gone through I,IV,V, and 77 and am starting on X ,looking to list all the needed pages for our work.

It seems as if thecontents of the chapters shifted over time and we may have to devise a new consruct for DoV and the preceding chapters.
X is full of material directly and indirectly related and we will need a careful perusal to narrow down what is germain to DoV.
I am in class all day so I hope to publish an outline of the texts and maybe a proposal or 2 re: it.

Meanwhile saulotus feel free to pull your finished DoV out ! <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

If anyone already has somethought's here let's have it please

lindil

"What then was this hope , if you know ?" Finrod asked "They say" answered Andreth :" they say that the One will himself enter into Arda , and heal Men and all the Marring from the begining to the end." Lindil is often found on posting on the 'New Revised Standard' Silmarillion at the Barrowdowns discussion board. </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 372</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the Darkening of Valinor: texts and discussion

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> X is full of material directly and indirectly related and we will need a careful perusal to narrow down what is germain to DoV.<hr></blockquote>
As Mithadan pointed out; AFAIK I'm to suggest MT alternatives while the main project is to proceed with the general old Mythology concept.

To my understanding, this would eliminate the need for others to need &gt;all&lt; the volumes of History or to concern themselves with the problematic text MT presents.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Meanwhile saulotus feel free to pull your finished DoV out<hr></blockquote>
I have it; yes. But that would superceed the project, as I can simply point out differences concerning MT and the resultant revised text of the project. I don't want to feel as Mithadan put it: &quot;Saul has already written the canon&quot;.
That would not make it much of a group effort would it?
You may consider what little I have previously sent as an idea and example of my editorial process along the lines of the project's mission objective, and how a revised text &gt;may&lt; appear at the end of the labor.


</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 212</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
DoV

Actually Saulotus , the quote about pulling out your DoV was [foolishly dor my part it is now revealed ] in jest. I thought you had already given us your versions! I quite agree w/ holding back till the discussion phase , so that the group process thing can work itself out. I assume yours is a MT version?

I would be interested to know , as this is part of what I envision as necesarry pre-editing discussion,:
how did you handle the inclusion of the Finwe and Miriel material ? it seems to throw alll other versions into a bit of disarray. I am still going through X to get the gist of all the versions and what has been shifted , so i may be missing the obvious .

Mithadan , any early obsevations of the X version to guide my reading abit?
durelen , M. is sending you a copy?

lindil

"What then was this hope , if you know ?" Finrod asked "They say" answered Andreth :" they say that the One will himself enter into Arda , and heal Men and all the Marring from the begining to the end." Lindil is often found on posting on the 'New Revised Standard' Silmarillion at the Barrowdowns discussion board. </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 375</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: DoV

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I assume yours is a MT version?<hr></blockquote>
Correct.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> how did you handle the inclusion of the Finwe and Miriel material?<hr></blockquote>
As a seperate sub-chapter; Of Finwe and Miriel.

I kept the material pretty much as is; i.e. different styles in different chapters. For &gt;me&lt;; it gave it that feeling of having been comprised from many sources (as either Bilbo and\or the the Eriol\[Tar]-Elendil connection I mentiooned awhile back would create), but that was &gt;MY&lt; personal choice.

Since you asked....



</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 215</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
I,IV,V,77,X

Well, closer perusal has yeilded a knotty number of texts in X alone.

We are left with 1 big decision and thousands of small one's .

the big one:

In it's final conception [written in late 1950's ]JRRT, had introduced ' The Darkening Of Valinor' as an overall title for the following chapters: [differently #'ed from the 77]
5 - Of Finwe and Miriel
6 - Of Feanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
7 - Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
8 - the Darkening of Valinor
*-of the rape of the Silmarils
9 - The Thieves' Quarrel

I had no idea of this when I suggested DoV as the starter text.

If we tackle it all now , it will take longer [obviously] , but yeild a rich and full treatment of the core of the 1st 1/2 of the Silm. or do we stick w./ what became invisaged as a sub chapter , if you will.

It will still involve checking texts from: I,IV,V,77,X and Xhas lot's to chose from.

Here is my list of what pages seem to be involved for doing DoV in the short conception
[this was how I was compiling till I got to the new format in X.

So maybe we can look carefully at these texts, getting a feel for the issues [CRRT's textual notes are reliable in showing major divergences and the introduction and disappearence of the individual themes w/in each chapter, it's funny, because I found them pretty dull till recently<img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ]
My system ,such as it is; is to through the stories and notes starting w/ the last or first , writing comments on a seperate sheet as you go which can then be transferef to the forum. I am currently thinking that reading chrological is best for general info and becoming familiar w/ the changes. However I suspect that we will want to use the last text to start from when compiling [whenever possible].

******++++++********
Starting w/ V CRRT introduces a sectional #ing system within the 'Silm' chapters , they are not keyed to the entries in the Annals although the notes discuss the convergences and cross over of ideas and langauage.
It allows easier cross referencing ofV and X and remains employed throug XI.
I propose using these for the division of our labor, once we have made the last of the general decisions , which in this case seems to be, 1 chapter or 5 chapters DoV.
******** ++++++********
There is some overlapping of at what place in the narrative eah version starts and s tops, i.e. in a given chapter it may include a bit that in another version is placed later or earlier, for this reason some of my pages noted are slightly outside o f the D0V proper as it shifted around ,. I suggest being familiar w/ the paragraphs [if not chapters] before and after DoV [big one or small one once we decide ] to avoid missing stray details.

here are the pages for stories and the relevant notes that I came up with:

I - theTheft of Melko and the Darkening of Valinor ch.6 p. 141-161

IV - earliest Annals of Valinor: p.265-6
- the quenta : chapter 4 ,p. 89 -94

V - later annals of Valinor: p.113-115 valinorean years 2500- 2991
- quenta silmarillion : Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor ch 4, pages 227-232 #'s 46-59
&amp; 5 of the Flight of the Noldor, #'s60 -64 p232-33, + notes on p. 238-9
77 - ch.8 p. 73 -77

X - The Annals of Aman p. 93 -106 p. Yr. 1400, #87-116
- p.142 - 3 have a few introductory comments interest.
- the later Q.S. 1st phase Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor ch.6 p. 184 - 193 #'s 46-56
- general note to the final version , concerning the subchapters of the now 5 chapter Do V ***p. 256
- the later Q.S. 2nd phase Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor sub chapters Of 'of the silmarills * * * * * * * * the unrest of the noldor' and 'of the rape of the silmarills' [contains material that has been in DoV till this * * * * * * * * * * * * version] , and ' of the darkeningof valinor' p. 273- 295 w/ final notes on 298-300
None of the above versions has MTshanges I have noticed yet.

So, let's read up and decide wether we want the Big DoV or the Little and then decide upon sectioning the chapters whichever way we decide.

NB* * * * I hope this is more useful than confusing , I know I will have to do something like this when there are more than say 3 versions involved for my own sanity, so I thought it wise to share.And I hoped it would make it easier for anyone following in our footsteps or peering over our shoulders!


lindil



"What then was this hope , if you know ?" Finrod asked "They say" answered Andreth :" they say that the One will himself enter into Arda , and heal Men and all the Marring from the begining to the end." Lindil is often found on posting on the 'New Revised Standard' Silmarillion at the Barrowdowns discussion board. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 1/14/01 10:57:26 am

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: I,IV,V,77,X

To add a small sense of relief; DoV requires little information from MT.
MT mainly deals with Ainulindale and already has a version presented.
The real problem that you will be confronted with is in Vol. 12 Late Writings ( Of Dwarves and Men to be a bit more specific). But since the majority of that comes into play AFTER the return to ME, it's a situation that no immediate concern is needed.

From MT there are only really a couple of items that need to be remembered:

The Song of the Sun and Moon is Narsilion.
This implies that there is a chapter of this title. ;O

The Sleep of Yavanna works with 77 and MT as both are situating ME in darkness (and the trees and plants in ME need some 'supernatural' explanation either way.

After the Trees die; Tilion &gt;returns&lt; to the Moon, not the steersman of the new moon (as this is the proposed, and self-admittedly provable resolution on the sun and moon problem). Aren has departed long before, and the Sun no longer has an Ainu.

The Dome of Varda is a cloud cover that covers Valinor, not a stone or otherwise physical construction. It has imitation stars placed in the sky to mimic the outer reaches. This is the sight that Ungoliant sees...
See MT section III note 2 for full sentence structure.
See section XI for details on exact nature of Dome.

Other than that; I don't recall too many other problems with MT in DoV. <img src=biggrin.gif ALT="">





</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 221</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
DoV size

After thinking about it a bit , I will go on record favoring doing the short sub-chapter if you will , of DoV proper, and when [God willing] we have finished that , decide if we want to continue w/ the greater DoV and it's remaining sub-chapters.



'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. </p>

[Mithadan]

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Posts: 491</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: DoV size

Agreed on shorter chapter. I will be sending Durelen a copy of HoME 5 not 10. Shorter chapter still kind of begs the question of what's in and what's out (or more accurately, in another chapter). Maybe we should take a short detour and seek agreement on what the chapters (and their order) should be?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 225</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
yep

a new and simplified response. lets go w/ the final conception in X {QS phase 2].

the big version of the DoV would at my suggestion look thus:
Of Finwe and Miriel
Of Feanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
Of the Silmarils and the Unchaining of Melkor
Of the Silmarills and the Unrest of the Noldor
{{Of the Darkening of Valinor }}
{{ Of the Rape of the Silmarils}}
Of the Thieves Quarrel

Thus I suggest doing the 2 double bracketed chapters above , I include 'Of the rape of the silmarils' as it seems to have been a part of DoV in all prior conceptions and will complete the work on the chapter in the old format , whiledividing the material according to the final conception.

What say ye?



Also that will mean getting durelen X chapters { would you like me to keep an eye out for a used copy ? , I live in an area w/ an abudance and of used bookstores and tend to frequent them.


At the risk of pondering criminal activity online [is pondering a crime,criminal? ] , does anyone have scanning capabilities and then it can be emailed? I am not quite there yet [I have an Italian scanner that has a lame mac software card that I suppose I need to try again now that I have a computer that is only 5 years old instead of 7!]



'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 1/15/01 5:52:23 pm

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 251</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: yep{&amp; BW remove this dangerous post in 48 hrs! }

In answer to lindil's question, I have a scanner here in my dorm room, and one at my home. I don't know how that helps us now, but maybe later on. With my new sleek computer I am sure I can email text copied on a scanner, but then again, I don't have all the texts.

I also agree that we should finalize a chapter outline. Jeez, no matter how I try, I can't seem to even come close to all of you long winded posts.

</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 230</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
long winded

consider it a virtue.

as for you havig a scanner that's great- now all you need is a copy of Morgoth's ring and you can scan it to yourself <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ! It prob will come in handy a some point.


lindil

'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. </p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 239</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
unburied answer to Mithadan

Having a feeling rhat my response via editing an earlier post was missed , I extract it and placse it here.

a new and simplified response. lets go w/ the final conception in X {QS
phase 2].

the big version of the DoV would at my suggestion look thus:
Of Finwe and Miriel
Of Feanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
Of the Silmarils and the Unchaining of Melkor
Of the Silmarills and the Unrest of the Noldor
{{Of the Darkening of Valinor }}
{{ Of the Rape of the Silmarils}}
Of the Thieves Quarrel

Thus I suggest doing the 2 double bracketed chapters above , I
include 'Of the rape of the silmarils' as it seems to have been a part
of DoV in all prior conceptions and will complete the work on the
chapter in the old format , whiledividing the material according to the
final conception.

What say ye?



Also that will mean getting durelen X chapters { would you like me to
keep an eye out for a used copy ? , I live in an area w/ an abudance
and of used bookstores and tend to frequent them.

lindil

</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 384</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: unburied answer to Mithadan

I think this is best. It all falls under the general theme; the darkening of Valinor (and perhaps why it was to be instituted).

It also allows for easier editorial work, as the sub-chapters can be attacked seperately.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 506</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: unburied answer to Mithadan

FYI, I also lack HoME X tho I have read it many times. Keep an eye out for me at those used book stores. The best price I've seen on line is about $20.00, Shipping included. In th meantime, can I get away with using V? My recollection is that X differs from V only slightly (not including MT).

The outline looks good.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 254</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
X

Well it seemed to be slightly differnt at every turn. I think X is the most crucial book for this chapter and I was going to suggest it as the base text.

I can mail it to you if S. [or bw?] ca n't scan the relevant chapter's or you are not in a position to reacquire. I will hound the bookstores next week.
or [not my favorite choice] we could file this DoV material and look for something Beleriandic that needs XI ?

Maybe we should set up a canon fund ? I will start replying to all those goofy &quot;you can get grants right now!' spams I get.


lindil

Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 1/16/01 5:46:42 pm

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 265</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: X

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Maybe we should set up a canon fund ? &quot;<hr></blockquote>

Great idea, only if it would work. I will end up having the necessary books, it may take a year, but I will get them. I am sure after a while so will Mithadan. I can't wait until I get V! Soon I will become something of a Tolkien guru. And all at the tender age of 19.

</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 256</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Ah to be young ....

Glad you have a goal to get them.
as to the fund..let's see 198 members ,100 $ in books- 50 cents from each regestered user
will do it<img src=smile.gif ALT="">

L.

Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 512</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Ah to be young ....

Thanks, Lindil. Its available in my local library (I'm probably the only person who's taken it out), but if you can find it, great. I have all the other 1st age texts (my favorite period).

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 385</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Ah to be young ....

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I can mail it to you if S. [or bw?] ca n't scan the relevant chapter's or you are not in a position to reacquire<hr></blockquote>If you would be so kind; please specify &gt;exactly&lt; which pages you wish, and I will scan them so that they may be dispersed to other members of the project.

I will also insert the relevant notes where appropriate.

If it's a fairly small selection of pages you can expect a result soon. If it's longer.... then a longer wait.

This might be feasible for future sections; provided I (or BW) has advance notice of page numbers.

Scanning an entire book is beyond my time capabilities ATM.


</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 513</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Ah to be young ....

Thanks Saul. In the meantime, I'll look for X

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 257</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
In the meanwhile...

I scrapped the outline plan as having too low of a labor to purpose ratio.
[and none yea'd it anyway<img src=wink.gif ALT=""> ] However I will try and do something in the way of important passages of I,IV and V which we may want to retain . I know I has a few details I hope to see make it , but I am not even sure Iv and V have anything to offer.


Lindil

Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 1/20/01 3:31:16 am

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 410</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: In the meanwhile...

I'm not sure the yea or nay has import atm; as the downs seem awfully quiet of late (few posts).

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 294</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: In the meanwhile...

Ok, I probably shouldn't do this but here goes. washere@butisn't.now, that is my email. Okay Saulotus?

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000045>Durelen</A> at: 1/22/01 12:45:53 am

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 427</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: In the meanwhile...

Done.

If that's not quite sufficient, then I can compensate.

</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 282</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
email

*edit* elven Lore so sensitive , we can't even post it on this near private forum of ours*end edit*
please email me/ or post here when you have X and co. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

lindil

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 1/22/01 3:49:15 am

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 428</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: email

As I've already done on anything pointing to the issue at hand.

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 303</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: email

Does that site have everything?

</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 432</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: email

Yes; Encycopedia of Arda is quite comprehensive.

If you have any other concerns please address me PRIVATELY on them.

</p>

[lindil]

up

as per maedhros' request.

I am not sure hw much revised text there is.

It maybe in the private forum.

It should all be here or in the private forum.

Your default setting may only be to see the last years posts [as mine was].

that should reveal the old DOV in the private form as well.

I have to run or I would do it now.

L

[Maédhros]

Lindil, I have made sure as you said to see if my thread view option was shown set to see all the threads, yet I have look both in the public and private forum and have not yet found it. Sorry to bother you but do you think that you could point it out to me. I may have seen it, but I can't recognize it.

[gandalf85]

These comments are based on the latest version of the text I received from Findegil. A few general notes pertaining to the whole text:

1) There is an instance where the term "the Powers" is used. Are we using "Powers" interchangeably with "Valar"? I personally think we should use "Valar" consistently but I could probably be convinced otherwise.

2) Are we using the spelling "Maedros" and not "Maedhros"?

Now more specific comments:

1) I don't think the four paragraphs which start "Now came the {Teleri}[Vanyar] led by the white-robed people ..." up to "Only the Teleri beyond the mountains still sang upon the shores of the Sea; for they reeked little of seasons or times, and gave no thought to the cares of the King of Arda, or to the shadow that had fallen upon Valinor; for it had not touched them, as yet." flows very well. It first says that the Vanyar and Noldor come, then later it says that on the third day the Vanyar and Noldor come. I think it flows better if we follow the basic chronology: The Vanyar and Noldor come and are greeted by Varda. They have feasts and songs. On the third day the Elves go to Taniquetil and Manwe teaches them of the Music. On the last day the Valar come to Tuna. Here is my proposed revision:

Now came the {Teleri}[Vanyar] led by the white-robed people of DoV-DV-04 {the Inwir}[Ingwë], and the throbbing of their congregated harps beat the air most sweetly; and after them went the {Noldoli}[Noldor] DoV-DV-05 mingling once more with their own dear folk by Manwë's clemency, that his festival might be duly kept, but the music that their viols and instruments awoke was now more sweetly sad than ever before.{ And last came the people of the shores, and their piping blent with voices brought the sense of tides and murmurous waves and the wailing cry of the coast-loving birds thus inland deep upon the plain.}
Then was all that host marshalled before the gate of {Valmar}[Valimar], and at the word and sign from {Inwe}[Ingwë] as one voice they burst in unison into the Song of Light. This had DoV-DV-06 {Lirillo}[Salmar] written and taught them, and it told of the longing of the Elves for light, of their dread journey through the dark world led by the desire of the Two Trees, and sang of their utmost joy beholding the faces of the {Gods}[Valar] and their renewed desire once more to enter {Valmar}[Valimar] and tread the Valar's blessed courts. Then did the gates of {Valmar}[Valimar] open and {Nornore}[Eönwë] bid them enter, and all that bright company passed through.
There Varda met them, standing amid the companies of the DoV-DV-07 {Manir and the Suruli}[Maiar], and all the {Gods}[Valar] made them welcome, and feasts there were in all the great halls thereafter.
§58b DoV-DV-10 {There}{[On the third day there] came the Vanyar, and there came the Noldor of Túna, and the Maiar were gathered together, and}.
Now their custom was on the third day to robe themselves all in white and blue and ascend to the heights of Taniquetil, <and> the Valar were arrayed in their beauty and majesty; and they sang before Manwë and Varda in the halls of Taniquetil, or played and danced upon the green slopes of the Mountain that looked west to the Trees. {and} {In that day the streets of {Valmar}[Valimar] were empty, } <And> there would Manwë speak to them as he thought fit of the Music of the Ainur and the glory of Ilúvatar, and of things to be and that had been.> DoV-DV-08 <BoLT 1;VI And on that day would {Kor}[Tirion] and {Valmar}[Valimar] be silent and still, <and the stairs of Túna were silent, and all the land lay sleeping in peace. Only the Teleri beyond the mountains still sang upon the shores of the Sea; for they reeked little of seasons or times, and gave no thought to the cares of the King of Arda, or to the shadow that had fallen upon Valinor; for it had not touched them, as yet.>
{but} But the roof of the world and the slope of Taniquetil shine with the gleaming raiment of the {Gods}[Valar] and Elves, and all the mountains echo with their speech - but afterward on the last day of merriment the {Gods}[Valar] would come to {Kor}[Tirion] and sit upon the slopes of its bright hill, gazing in love upon that slender town, and thereafter blessing it in the name of Ilúvatar would depart ere Silpion came to bloom; and so would end the days of DoV-DV-09 {Double Mirth}[mirth].

2) I think the section on Galadriel starting "DoV-UN-00.2 <UT Galadriel and her brother Finrod were the children of..." feels out of place. The previous section ends with Melkor spreading lies, then there's a long digression on Galadriel, then the next section starts "It is told also that when Melkor saw that these lies were smouldering he began to speak...". "These lies" sounds awkward after the section on Galadriel. Since Galadriel's section discusses the Exile and ends with her settling in Alqualonde, it might work better if we move it to after Feanor's rebellion and decision to sail east but before the kinslatying.

[Findegil]

1) the Powers: I think ‘the Powers’ is still a valid equivalent to ‘the Valar’. I am not in favour of eliminating all such synonyms.

2) Maedros: Yes that is the name we decided to use, because it was the last Version Tolkien used.

About the more specific points:
1) I don’t agree to this. The flow of your editing is nice, put what you left out is the information what was the custom at the last day of the festival. It is only the planes that are talked about in the paragraph beginning with “Now their custom was …”. And §58b is then the real happening.

2) DoV-UN-00.2: The placement of that part and if we take it fully or shorten it is still open for discussion. I thin I added that part long after the discussion of this part of the chapter. When I find the time I will go through this again and post a list of changes I made and the reason for them.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elvellon]

I think there is a bit of Shibboleth that belongs in here, which I'm going to call DoV-UN-00.8:

§53d Then Fingolfin rose and said: ‘I will release my brother.’ But Fëanor spoke no word in answer; and when he had stood silent before the Valar for a while, he turned and left the council and departed from {Valmar}[Valimar]. At once he returned to Túna, and before the term of seven days that was set, he gathered his goods and his treasures and left the city and went far away. With him went his sons, and Finwë his father, who would not be parted from him, in fault or guiltless, and some others also of the Noldor. But Nerdanel would not go with him, DoV-UN-00.8 <Shibboleth [for] after long endeavouring to change his mood, [she] became estranged>, and she asked leave to {abide with Indis, whom she had ever esteemed}<Shibboleth retire{d} to her father's house>, though this {had been}[was] little to the liking of Fëanor.

[Findegil]

This is a good find!

I would like to take up even a bit more and not lose the connection with Indis:

... At once he returned to Túna, and before the term of seven days that was set, he gathered his goods and his treasures and left the city and went far away. With him went his sons, and Finwë his father, who would not be parted from him, in fault or guiltless, and some others also of the Noldor. But Nerdanel would not go with him, DoV-UN-00.8b <Shibboleth for after long endeavouring to change his mood, she became estranged. (Her kin were devoted to Aule, who counselled her father to take no part in the rebellion. 'It will in the end only lead Fëanor and all your children to death.')>{, and she}She asked leave to <Shibboleth {retired}retire to her father's house>; thus she abide with Indis, whom she had ever esteemed, though this had been little to the liking of Fëanor. ...

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elvellon]

Glad you agree! And I'd like to keep more of that too, but I wasn't sure it fits there. It's too early for Aulë to call it a rebellion, isn't it? As of yet it's just a fight between two brothers. But it occurs to me you could swap "rebellion" for "unrest", since it is said a few paragraphs earlier that "The unrest of the Noldor was not indeed hidden from the Valar". This would also reflect back to the earlier statement that Sarmo "bitterly rued the day" he taught Fëanor all he learned from Aulë.

... DoV-UN-00.8b <Shibboleth for after long endeavouring to change his mood, she became estranged. (Her kin were devoted to Aulë, who counselled her father to take no part in the {rebellion}unrest. 'It will in the end only lead Fëanor and all your children to death.')> ...

I had considered placing this in Chapter 12 with Nerdanel's plea to leave the twins behind (and then "rebellion" could remain), but it seems odd to have Aulë's warning about all her children dying so close to her asking Fëanor to leave her just two of them.

Originally Posted by Findegil

I would like to take up even a bit more and not lose the connection with Indis

I don't think Nerdanel can "retire to her father's house" and also "abide with Indis". Both of those phrases mean she went to live there, so it would have to be one or the other.

[Findegil]

"rebellion": I think we can allow some freenes here:
- On the one hand, a strife in a rather over peacefull setting is a kind of rebellion and
- since Aulë is allready using his "forsight" to predict the death of Nerdanel's children, we have to grant him as well the pre-knowledge that the unrest will grow into a real rebellion (of a kind) and
- we are allways have texts written (long) after the fact and it would not be the only part in which a knowledge of later events coulours the speech of earlier events.

I think the warning to Nerdanel's father fits here better than in chapter 12. I would assume that what trigger her plea in chapter 12, is the forsight of Nerdanel herself, that generated the name Umberto that made her feel that the death of her youngest will follow very swiftly.

About "abide with Indis": In the original context "abide" could not mean that Indis and Nerdanel shared one house. We are told already that Fëanor left his father's house as soon as he could, and I very much doubt that he returned to it when he married Nerdanel. So in the original sense it would mean both Indis and Nerdanel stayed in Tiriron, while both husbands moved to Formenos. For me this is fully compatible with Nerdanel leafing the (now empty) house of Fëanor and moving back into the house of her father Sarmo. Beside that it is for us an easy way of telling that Indis stayed in Tirion as well.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

"rebellion": I think we can allow some freenes here:
- On the one hand, a strife in a rather over peacefull setting is a kind of rebellion and
- since Aulë is allready using his "forsight" to predict the death of Nerdanel's children, we have to grant him as well the pre-knowledge that the unrest will grow into a real rebellion (of a kind) and
- we are allways have texts written (long) after the fact and it would not be the only part in which a knowledge of later events coulours the speech of earlier events.

I think the warning to Nerdanel's father fits here better than in chapter 12. I would assume that what trigger her plea in chapter 12, is the forsight of Nerdanel herself, that generated the name Umberto that made her feel that the death of her youngest will follow very swiftly.

About "abide with Indis": In the original context "abide" could not mean that Indis and Nerdanel shared one house. We are told already that Fëanor left his father's house as soon as he could, and I very much doubt that he returned to it when he married Nerdanel. So in the original sense it would mean both Indis and Nerdanel stayed in Tirion, while both husbands moved to Formenos. For me this is fully compatible with Nerdanel leafing the (now empty) house of Fëanor and moving back into the house of her father Sarmo. Beside that it is for us an easy way of telling that Indis stayed in Tirion as well.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elvellon]

I see your point about rebellion, and I agree completely. Plus, I was forgetting that earlier in the chapter (§52c), it says: "For Fëanor now began openly to speak words of rebellion against the Valar". That cinches it, for me.

Originally Posted by Findegil

About "abide with Indis": In the original context "abide" could not mean that Indis and Nerdanel shared one house. We are told already that Fëanor left his father's house as soon as he could, and I very much doubt that he returned to it when he married Nerdanel. So in the original sense it would mean both Indis and Nerdanel stayed in Tirion, while both husbands moved to Formenos. For me this is fully compatible with Nerdanel leafing the (now empty) house of Fëanor and moving back into the house of her father Sarmo. Beside that it is for us an easy way of telling that Indis stayed in Tirion as well.

Ah, ok. I get it. I was reading "abide" with the meaning "to reside, dwell" (i.e. Nerdanel asked leave to reside with Indis). You're reading it as meaning "to remain without going away, to stay" (i.e. Nerdanel asked leave to remain in Tirion along with Indis). I think you're right, that's most likely how Tolkien intended it to be understood.

In that case, I think the following works better, what do you think?

... But Nerdanel would not go with him, DoV-UN-00.8c <Shibboleth for after long endeavouring to change his mood, she became estranged. (Her kin were devoted to Aule, who counselled her father to take no part in the rebellion. 'It will in the end only lead Fëanor and all your children to death.')>{, and} And she asked leave to abide with Indis, whom she had ever esteemed, though this had been little to the liking of Fëanor. ...

And then a simple change to Chapter 12 by starting that Shibboleth insert a few words earlier:

FoN-EX-06b <Shibboleth Nerdanel had retired to her father's house; but when it became clear that Fëanor and his sons would leave Valinor for ever, she came to him before the host started on its northward march, and begged that Fëanor should leave her the two youngest, the twins, or one at least of them. He replied: ‘Were you a true wife, as you had been till cozened by Aulë, you would keep all of them, for you would come with us. If you desert me, you desert also all of our children. For they are determined to go with their father.’ Then Nerdanel was angry and she answered: ‘You will not keep all of them. One at least will never set foot on Middle-earth.’ ‘Take your evil omens to the Valar who will delight in them,’ said Fëanor. ‘I defy them’. So they parted.>

If you want to keep what you have, you at least need to change the tense of "thus she abide with Indis" to one of these:

• thus did she abide with Indis
• thus she abode with Indis
• thus she abided with Indis

[Findegil]

DoV-UN-00.8c; FoN-EX-06b: That is a much better editing! I like that it does not fragment the pices we insert as much as my edditing did. If no body speaks against it, we will take it!

Respectfully
Findegil