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10-31-2004, 03:08 PM | #1 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
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LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 08 - Farewell to Lórien
This chapter completes the Lothlórien trilogy. It begins with another audience of the Fellowship with Celeborn and Galadriel, where their resolve to continue is tested by her gaze. Though they are offered the option of staying in Lothlórien, none of them wish to do so. The decision to choose their goal is postponed by the offer of boats, so that they do not have to decide on which side of the shore they will travel.
Aragorn is shown to be indecisive; his role as leader of the Fellowship means that he cannot freely choose to go to Minas Tirith as he originally wished to do. Boromir’s speech betrays his thoughts once again, with Frodo being the one who notices his budding desire for the Ring. We are introduced to several Elvish objects that are given to the Fellowship: lembas, the cloaks, and the hithlain ropes. The two poems that are included are both Elven, both sung by Galadriel at their farewell: I sang of leaves is recorded in Common Speech; Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen! in Quenya, with a translation immediately following. I find it interesting that the actual farewell scene is postponed until they have already left, almost as an afterthought; it reminds me of the hobbits’ farewell from Goldberry, which was similarly placed. Celeborn explains the route to them, then Galadriel gives the gifts – after drinking the ritual cup of parting with them. We’ve already mentioned that she calls him “a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings” in the previous chapter, but that she is the one who distributes the gifts. I think we can assume that the gifts are from both of them, so that it doesn’t matter much – or does it? I will not elaborate on the individual gifts, as I’m sure that those will be discussed enthusiastically! I stumbled over Galadriel’s words to Gimli, though: “You shall not be the only guest without a gift.” Now, she had prepared gifts for all the others, so I cannot imagine that she would deliberately have left him out! Did she know his heart and want to give him the opportunity to present his request? What was the reason for this special treatment? I must say, this scene and the closing conversation of Gimli with Legolas endeared the Dwarf to me forever. His poetic words and gallantry are lovely and touching! I have quite a few of those sentences underlined in my book: Quote:
(In closing, I’d like to point to a very well-done reverse version of “I sang of leaves” which Elennar Starfire wrote and posted here just today.)
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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10-31-2004, 04:06 PM | #2 | |||
Laconic Loreman
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Finally, I can post what I've been trying to for the past two weeks, lol.
So far we have seen Boromir against every decision of the Fellowship (Moria, Lothlorien, then later Amon Hen). Of course we don't miss any of his complaining either. And it has got me thinking, is Boromir in the Fellowship for the wrong reasons? I think the answer comes out the most in this chapter. Quote:
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10-31-2004, 08:33 PM | #3 |
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Since Celeborn didn't get nearly enough discussion in the last chapter...
We've been talking a lot about that guy who seems to tag along with Galadriel all the time, who is supposed to be incredibly wise and a great giver of gifts. While Imladris certainly stuck up for the poor, oft-forgotten Elven Lord, the general consensus seemed to be that he wasn't really living up to his reputation. Here, though, we see a decision Celeborn makes that does reflect wisdom: his choice to provide the Fellowship with boats.
Boromir has wanted to go back to Minas Tirith since the start, and yet the others are not sure if they should follow him there or make their way directly to Mordor. Having boats delays the necessity of making their choice, which may very well separate them should they choose different ways. Is there wisdom in delaying the inevitable? I think that in this case it was a good idea, for it gave them the chance to think things over a bit more (even though things didn't turn out as planned at all). Argh... I just found a typo in my book... and that irks me. |
10-31-2004, 09:12 PM | #4 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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IMO, the Lorien boats were no minor gift. The exhibit at the Museum of Science in Boston drove this home; I know pea-pods and double-enders, and I'm not unfamiliar with canoes.
A hundred years ago when wooden boatmaking was common in Sebago and environs, a boat like the one Boromir rode down the falls would sell for upwards of three hundred dollars, take all winter to make, and represent the farmer's primary (sometimes only) winter income. If someone gave me a boat like that for three or four days use (knowing I would discard it afterwards), I'd consider it a major gift. Hand carved paddles? Rope? Provisions? Yup. Good stuff. Thanks, Celeborn.
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10-31-2004, 10:18 PM | #5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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A key question here is was it a wise decision to provide boats and thus put off a
decision. Given following book descriptions (and ignoring the movie) it would seem that on either side of the Anduin there would have been at least a period of relative freedom from immediate danger. If the eastern side was chosen Boromir would presumably have left the fellowship, to the benefit of Gondor (at least during the War of the Ring), and with obvious major changes in the story plot. If the western side of the Anduin one would presume the existent plot would basically have remained intact. I am not at all convinced that it was a wise decision to take to the boats. When reading that passage I'm always struck by a feeling that a crucial "decision" is made, for some reason, more so then in say, entering Moria. Atmospherically, it has the feel to me of the scene (and music) in the movie "Death on the Nile" when the cruise ship sets off down the Nile.
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11-01-2004, 02:27 AM | #6 | |||||||||||||||
Illustrious Ulair
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Apologies in advance for this long post - I won't requires notes from anyone to be excused from reading it!
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Similarly, Anduril is not simply Aragorn’s sword - it is an heirloom of his house, forged from the shards of his ancestor’s sword. So, it too symbolises Aragorn’s power & authority, & the gift of the scabbard carries the blessing of the Elves’, the otherworldly ‘powers’ within Middle-earth. It is gifted by their ‘Queen’, & received by the King on a visit to the Otherworld, just as with Arthur. We know the Company have been in the otherworld, in the world of dreams, not simply by the atmosphere of the place, by the ‘magic’ they experience there, but also by clear statements made, first & most clearly, by Celeborn, who greets Aragorn with the words: Quote:
&, secondly & more subtly, by the author, who tells us: Quote:
Why not? Because they are already dreaming - their whole experience in the golden Wood is a kind of extended ‘waking’ dream. This ‘dream’ begins with Frodo falling asleep in the Mallorn tree on the borders of Lorien: Quote:
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Tolkien originally intended to emphasise this dreamlike aspect of Lorien by having no time pass while the company were there. CT comments (The Treason of Isengard p285-6) : Quote:
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We also get another account of Elven ‘magic’, as Galadriel tells how she ‘created’ Lorien - she ‘sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, & leaves of gold there grew. She then sang of the wind, & the wind struck up & blew through those same leaves. Yet it seems her power of song is fading - her ‘crown’ is now nothing but ‘fading elanor’ - dying flowers, reminding us of ‘Frodo’s Dreme’: Quote:
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‘Namarie’, Galadriel’s Lament, is the other poem - Tolkien’s own melody for it is apparently based on Gregorian chant (& he sings it very well). A couple of interesting points are made by Tolkien in ‘The Road Goes Ever On’. First there is the mention of miruvor: Yeni ve linte yuldar avanier mi oromardi lisse-miruvoreva Andune pella Vardo tellumar nu luini, yassen tintillar i eleni omaryo aire-tari-lirinen recalls the cordial of Imladris & Tolkien’s account of it is: Quote:
Second, the reference to Varda having ‘uplifted her hands like clouds, & all paths are drowned deep in shadow’. Tolkien explains: Quote:
Finally, to Gimli’s gift - three golden hairs from her head for an heirloom & a pledge of goodwill between the Mountain & the Wood. Living ‘gold’ - as perfect a symbol of the union of Elven & Dwarven natures as can be imagined - & once set in imperishable crystal it will outlast both races, forever a pledge of good will between those who will soon (relatively speaking) be no more: Quote:
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http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...&postcount=127 )
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 11-01-2004 at 02:33 AM. |
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11-01-2004, 03:09 AM | #7 | ||
Deadnight Chanter
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Some minor comments on davem's excellent post
Arthur/Aragorn re: very astute, I daresay. I know you meant it, but just to put some plain wording around it - the whole sword/sheath affair also symbolizes union of male and female focused in Aragorn. Aragorn is already known to us as the medium for the past to be linked and flow into the future, with the Bilbo's verse (again, more to hobbit poetry than meets the eye) - he is the old which is not forgotten and shall be. He is the one to unite the bloodlines of free peoples (dwarves, as being a special case, excluded), and now he is seen as the pinpoint of harmony of the human race as a whole - conductor and wielder of both male and female parts of it. (Can't help remembering lot of articles labelling LoTR 'boyish' at this point, ). Should I add in this he is again hinted at as a symbol of Christ too - the Renewer and Reuniter etc?
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11-01-2004, 03:38 AM | #8 | ||
Hauntress of the Havens
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I was under the impression that from the start, Boromir was included in the Fellowship because he was going back to Minas Tirith, and the way to Minas Tirith and the road to Mordor lie together for hundreds of miles or something like that. When Frodo was told that Aragorn would be part of the Fellowship, he was surprised for he thought that Aragorn was going with Boromir to Minas Tirith. And Aragorn said that for this reason, Boromir was also chosen to be part of the Company. So for all we know, Boromir was there because he needed or wanted someone to be with when he goes home. Perhaps he was hoping to do his part in Minas Tirith, where he was in authority and where he can serve in the War against Sauron best. And Aragorn was supposed to go with him. After all, they were given the freedom by Elrond to leave the Company as they see fit. It was Aragorn who is torn in two this time. Poor Aragorn. I should add his concern for all to the Aragorn swoon-worthiness points. Quote:
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11-01-2004, 03:39 AM | #9 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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I'd like to add two thoughts in response to davem's post. Concerning Frodo's and Sam's respective gifts, I was struck by the fact that Frodo's is a gift from the sky, loosed from the earth, while Sam's is earth, rooted in the ground - both very much prophetic of their respective fates!
As to miruvor, I doubt that the cordial Gandalf gave to the Fellowship members was directly from Valinor - how would it have come to the Elves in Middle-earth in sufficient quantity to supply so many? I rather imagine that it was Elrond's version of the original; since it is specifically called "the cordial of Imladris", it must have been produced there. That would be similar to champagne in our times - the original comes only from the area of that name in France, but California, for example, also produces champagne; not the same product, but their version of it.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
11-01-2004, 04:55 AM | #10 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
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11-01-2004, 08:49 AM | #11 | |||||||
Laconic Loreman
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Lhunardawen
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There's a couple more things to add. Quote:
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11-01-2004, 01:55 PM | #12 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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So, whatever caused his joining the Fellowship, it was well done. Huzzah for Boromir! Quote:
Abedithon le, ~ Saphy ~
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The Hitchhiking Ghost Last edited by Sapphire_Flame; 11-01-2004 at 03:47 PM. |
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11-01-2004, 02:05 PM | #13 | |
Laconic Loreman
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11-02-2004, 03:42 AM | #14 | ||
Hauntress of the Havens
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Hobbits seem to have unleashed their fascination for magic in the Lothlorien trilogy!
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Arguably, the most interesting gift given by Galadriel to the Company was Gimli's. If we try to remember the events two ages ago, we'll see that this has happened before; that someone asked Galadriel for some of her hair. The first to make such a request was Feanor, and from Galadriel's hair it was said he found the inspiration for making the Silmarils. But despite her close kinship with Feanor, Galadriel refused his request. But two ages had passed, and here a Dwarf makes the same request, and she willingly obliged! |
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11-02-2004, 03:38 PM | #15 | |||||
Beloved Shadow
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(not unless you think Aragorn also went along for the wrong reason) Quote:
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Remember, when they reached Rauros Aragorn was leaning heavily towards dividing the Fellowship. He suggested that Frodo, Sam, and Gimli would continue on towards Mordor and the rest would go with Boromir (Aragorn planned on staying with Frodo). So if they had to make that decision earlier who is to say that Legolas, Merry, and Pippin would not have gone with Boromir? That definitely would've changed things. But if they would've chosen the western bank... how do they get to Mordor??? There isn't a place to cross the Anduin until Gondor so the Fellowship would stay together and likely end up in Minas Tirith. That could change the story in many ways. I think the boats were a super super gift. It moved the point of no return back a little.
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11-02-2004, 07:19 PM | #16 | |||||||||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
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My usual
Some thoughts on previous posts and some thoughts of my own ...
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In any event, it seems to me from this passage that, whatever Boromir may have said openly, it was unlikely now that he would follow a different course to the Ringbearer - unless he bore the Ring himself. Another point occurs to me. We see in this passage that Frodo sees something "new and strange" in Boromir. Is this because it is only now that the desire for the Ring has fully awoken within Boromir? Certainly, at the Council of Elrond, he was all for bringing it to Minas Tirith and using it against Sauron, but it is unlikely that he had any intention at that stage to forcibly impose his will in this regard. Is Lothlorien a "turning point" for Boromir? And, if so, is this connected with Galadriel's test, which forced him to confront his heart’s desire? Was this the "peril" which lay in Lothlorien for Boromir - to have his desire awoken? If so, it might suggest that, had he not entered the realm, his desire would have remained latent, or at least not come to the fore so quickly. Indeed, if we suppose that he would have succumbed to the lure of the Ring eventually, perhaps this was Galadriel's purpose in confronting him with his desire. Since she could see what was in his heart, perhaps she considered it better to "flush it out" early, rather than risk having it surface at a later stage, in Minas Tirith perhaps, when Boromir would have been surrounded by men loyal to him. And now onto Celeborn. After my character assassination ( ) in the discussion of the previous Chapter, I have to admit that he is portrayed in a much better light here. He provides the Fellowship with boats (a very important gift, as others have noted) and provides useful counsel concerning the Fellowship's route. I also noticed that, when he tells the Fellowship that all shall be prepared for them at the haven, he says that this is to be accomplished by "my people", not "our people". Is this simply a reference to the fact that the Elves of Lorien are closer in kindred to him than to Galadriel, or does it suggest that, for all her power and wisdom, he remains Lord of the realm? It is, however, Galadriel, who bestows the individual gifts on the Fellowship, despite her having previously described her husband as "a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings". Quote:
As for Legolas, Merry, Pippin and Boromir, well Legolas probably felt like a kid with a new toy, but I wonder if the others felt more like the father who finds a tie or a pair of socks in a beautifully wrapped present. I mean, the belts are nice and all, but ... Quote:
Finally, I cannot let this Chapter pass without quoting my wife's favourite line (and therefore one of mine, as it reminds me of her): Quote:
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11-03-2004, 05:30 AM | #17 |
Laconic Loreman
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The Phantom:
Even with Aragorn's intent on going to Minas Tirith, you can still speculate, whether Aragorn joined in for the right reasons. This is only my view, but here's how I will support it. From what is said, it appears Aragorn's "wanting" to travel to Minas Tirith, was because of the dreams and visions that he thought it was his time to go. Obviously something changed that in him, because now he's unsure, we can say, it was Gandalf's death, or maybe it was something that Galadriel did. SpM, has pointed out that indeed Boromir and Aragorn are in deep thought, and the "peril" of Lorien I believe is showing. Galadriel obviously brings out ways of testing each fellowships heart. We see actual accounts from a few of them. Frodo and Sam with the Mirror of Galadriel, Gimli's test was accounted (see my posts above), one's that we don't fully get, but know she tested Boromir, Aragorn, Legolas, Merry, Pippin. Now, Legolas, Merry, and Pippin, there's no proof that they will willingly abandon the company, through no part in the story. (Eventhrough Merry and Pippin's thinking they are worthless, they have already done a lot of good, and even more good to come!) So now, the ones in question are Aragorn and Boromir, who we know originally intended on heading to Minas Tirith. Boromir is deadset, going to Minas Tirith. Now, SpM points out the fact that Galadriel "awoke" the "beast" sleeping within Boromir (and I think it's a reasonable statement to say). Before these chapters, we know Boromir (at the Council) wanted to take the Ring to Minas Tirith, but other then that we don't see him truly being affected by the ring. UNTIL NOW! When it appears Galadriel has awoken the "peril" of Lorien. This is where my view differs from SpM. Clearly Boromir is being affected by the Ring. He has always been able to "suppress" that however. Even at Amon Hen, when the confrontation occurs, he is only taken over by a temporary madness. After that he does the "I'm sorry...blah blah blah." What, I'm saying is, if Boromir survived the onslaught of Amon Hen, I think his love for Minas Tirith, would be greater then his love for the Ring. For he was always able to suppress those feelings until Lothlorien, and even after he's able to suppress them, it's when the confrontation happens when he can't suppress it. And that was only temporary, his love for Minas Tirith, is something that isn't temporary. If Boromir lived he may leave for Minas Tirith, and still have thoughts about the ring, and if he's confronted again with the same choice, he may very well fall to it again. In the end I think if it came down to the Ring (which he was always able to suppress until that ONE confrontation) or Minas Tirith, it would be Minas Tirith, since his madness was only temporary. Unfortunately, I've babbled too long and I got work, so this will have to be continued, where I will finish my argument with Aragorn and Boromir, joining for the right reasons? |
11-03-2004, 10:55 AM | #18 |
Gibbering Gibbet
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Of gifts and gift-giving
Really just time for a quick post, but I hope to have more later today (RL willing).
SpM, that scene with Galadriel passing round the cup is taken straight from any number of Anglo-Saxon poems. In the A-S world, the woman of the hall would be the "cupbearer" who took the flagon to each man. It was an important, and specifically feminine role. As to the gifts. Esty has already made the point about Galadriel's gifts as being directed toward the final fate of the heroes, but I would like to expand on that a bit and connect it to Celeborn. Galadriel seems to be all about endings. Her gifts to Frodo, Sam, Aragorn and Gimli all are directed toward what will happen to them after the quest, in addition to being useful during it. Frodo is given the light of Westernesse, where he will eventually go to find healing. Sam is given the dust that he will need to heal the Shire, where he will live out (most) of the rest of his life. Aragorn is given the gem in token of Arwen and his marriage to her. And Gimli is given the hairs that will cement his new bond with Legolas/Elves and that will lead to his co-operation with them and his travels with Legolas. Merry and Pippin are somewhat left out of this, I realise, but I still think it significant that they are given the same sorts of gifts as is Boromir -- and again they seem to have something to do with their endings: Boromir ends his journey in battle to proect the Halfings, Merry and Pippin will go on, after the quest, to defend the Shire in battle, and to become the closest things that the Shire has to military leaders. So Galadriel is all about endings in her gifts, but Celeborn is all about the present. The boats and counsel he gives them are meant for the here and now: for the road. So perhaps this is a way of looking at the Celeborn/Galadriel relationship (and sorry, but I do not have as convincing or hilarious a post as Saucy does in Crazy Scenes to make this point)? Celeborn, the powerful Elf lord of this world, is committed to the practicalities of this world, while Galadriel, the last of the Noldor and thus of the 'other world' is all about that -- she is about what comes after or at the end, he is all about the present. Both are necessary for the success of the Quest, but in the end, we are more 'enchanted' by Galadriel and the endings/fadings that she represents than we are by the present task. This is interesting, for Tolkien is able to drag us into a very Elvish state -- by valuing Galadriel and her gifts over Celeborn's we, in effect, think like Elves insofar as we value the gifts that are -- all of them -- relics from the past that are meant to be preserved into the future. Boromir and Aragorn: wow, never really thought about them in this way, but it occurs to me that perhaps they are shadowy reflections of each other? Or, perhaps more properly, Boromir is a shadowy reflection of Aragorn? Boromir is a model or type of the hero that Aragorn can (and maybe even wishes to be) but with the passing of Gandalf he is willing to continue on in a more 'hobbit' like mode (creeping toward Mordor rather than riding to the defense of his city). It's interesting that with Boromir's death, Aragorn takes upon himself the tasks that Boromir was fulfilling (protecting Merry and Pippin, then Gondor). It's almost as though at the breaking of the Fellowship, Aragorn is given the choice between Boromir-hero and Frodo-hero and he makes the choice for Boromir?? The big difference between himself and Bor, though, is that he is self-aware to the extent that he is aware of the bind that he is in, and this explains why he is so happy to accept the boats and delay the decision. It's not the Fellowship that he is having trouble splitting up, but himself. He is torn between two heroic models/two heroic journeys and he knows that by taking one he will lose something of the other. (Hmm. . .just occuring to me for later chapters: perhaps Faramir and Boromir are two halves of an 'Aragorn'?)
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11-03-2004, 12:07 PM | #19 | ||||
Corpus Cacophonous
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I think that this line of thought comes closest to resolving my reservations over Celeborn's role. He is a powerful figure, but his power lies in his practical role as Lord of the realm. This power is not as relevant to the Quest (although it is important in this Chapter), and so it is downplayed in comparison with Galadriel's intuitive power, which impacts directly on the Quest. Thus Celeborn's power (in the previous Chapter at least) seems inferior to hers.
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11-03-2004, 02:07 PM | #20 |
Laconic Loreman
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You're right SpM, we'll do have contrasting ideas (and that's good some times ), maybe something will pop up in these closing chapters of the Fellowship .
Now onto the second half of my argument, I intended on writing but I ran out of time. To sum up my previous posts. I come up with this thinking that Boromir joined the Fellowship for the wrong reasons. He joined for the SOLE purpose that the Fellowship's road, and his road to Minas Tirith followed the same path for a long ways. I see that as a wrong reason of joining, only joining to head back home, where Boromir seems to be the only member of the Fellowship that is able to willingly "depart" from the Fellowship. (I will say, this is only my opinion, I'm open to any debate, just getting out my views). So now on why I believe, Aragorn joined for the RIGHT reasons. We know that Aragorn intended on going to Minas Tirith (as long as Gandalf was in the company). He truly thought it was his time to go (obviously it wasn't). But, I don't see that as the SOLE reason for joining the fellowship, like it seems to be in Boromir. Boromir from the start, see's it folly to put the ring in the hand of a hobbit, and blindly walk into Mordor. From the start, he says, I'm going back to my home (none of the other company member's do this). Boromir is against any important decision the company tries to make (Moria, Lothlorien, then later on deciding what "side" of the river to land on, where to go from there...etc). Aragorn however, there are other clues (or atleast I take as clues) that he joined to truly "follow Frodo." After Gandalf dies, he is in deep thought, thinking he can't go to Minas Tirith now, if Frodo decides not to. Here we see his compassion for Frodo, he can't now bring himself to leaving the company (like Gandalf, and I suspect this deep thinking had something to do with Galadriel as well). Anyway, even before this we can see Aragorn (unlike Boromir) thinks this is the only possible way of destroying the ring for ever. He thinks (no matter how desperate it is) it's their ownly shot. (Again opposite of Boromir). We also get to see an earlier compassion for Frodo, first off with Frodo's wound, then again in Moria, once they leave Moria, to stop and have Frodo take a break from the "wound" he supposedly suffered. And again in Amon Hen, he leaves it up to Frodo, to choose what path to go. No matter what path Frodo chooses, Boromir is heading for Minas Tirith. If Aragorn's only reason for joining the Fellowship was to be like Boromir, then he too would head to Minas Tirith. Instead we see contrasting ideas with Boromir and Aragorn, we see Aragorn shows a lot more compassion towards Frodo, then Boromir, and we see Aragorn willing to follow Frodo to the end (something Boromir wouldn't do, obviously). So, I think even if Aragorn comes out and says, we're joining to head to Minas Tirith, there were other reasons for Aragorn joining, by just showing compassion towards Frodo. If he was deadset let's go to Minas Tirith like Boromir, then he would be able to leave Frodo, and he just can't do that anymore. This is just circumstantial evidence, by just contrasting Aragorn and Boromir, so please if anyone has another view on things I would love to hear it (well see it). Edit: One last thing on Aragorn. He comes out and says, he's going to Minas Tirith, because of all the dreams, and signs he thought it was time to go. He never comes out and says anything about wanting to go, he just thinks it's time that the kingship returns to Gondor. We see in Bree, that he wants to restore a King (but only when it's the right time). I don't know if I should discuss this here, but I think the simple fact that Aragorn doesn't take the crown right away, shows good political skills by Aragorn, but also, that he doesn't want to go to Gondor just to reclaim the throne right away, he wants to reclaim it when he feels its the right time of doing it. He thought it was the right time back during the Fellowship (and it wasn't). Which also makes me tend to think what I've been babbling on now in two extremely long posts. Fordhim, nice observation on the fact that Boromir+Faramir=Aragorn. We know that Boromir and Faramir are more opposite then similar. Boromir is well known/respected for his fighting, Faramir is more respected for other reasons then fighting, we'll just say he isn't best known for his fighting skill. So, if indeed if Boromir is a shadowy reflection of Aragorn, then I think a Boromir and Faramir, put together, are both halves of Aragorn. . Last edited by Boromir88; 11-03-2004 at 02:15 PM. |
11-03-2004, 04:11 PM | #21 | ||||
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But he didn't. He travelled with the Fellowship and made himself useful. The Fellowship probably would not have survived Caradhras had Boromir not been there. Elrond specifically said- Quote:
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Not to mention, how do we know that part of Aragorn's willingness to follow Frodo and the Ring (despite the summons to return to his kingdom) wasn't due to the lure of the Ring?
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11-03-2004, 05:20 PM | #22 | |
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Aragorn's situation is different from Boromir's. He's going because he thinks it's his time, but he holds Frodo's quest above his own. It was Aragorn's choice to take on the "leadership" role, and we do get to see Aragorn struggle at this, which is why I'm glad Aragorn didn't go back to Minas Tirith at this time, I don't think it's until we meet Eomer when Aragorn's true leadership qualities begin to show. Point is, it was his own choice to lead the Fellowhship, it was his own choice to be the "bearer" of Gandalf's burden. I think the fact that Aragorn sets aside his own "fate," for the sake of Frodo is an oustanding statement of his character. Elrond indeed did say that people may leave the company as they wish, but just because they can, doesn't make it "morally" right. I'll make one clear statement to show my position. The Fellowship would not have survived if it wasn't for Boromir, I'm trying to say maybe he died because he didn't join the Fellowship for the right reasons. I think a clear example of Boromir and the rest of the Fellowship is, he's always at friction with them. He thinks it's foolish to send the ring blindly into Mordor, in the hands of a hobbit, which is why he holds his own personal quest of going back to Minas Tirith, above Frodo's quest. Indeed Frodo's quest is foolish, and very little hope of it ever suceeding, but there still is hope. Aragorn, I think, he joins the Fellowship for the "moral" reason, is because he takes on Gandalf's burden, he shows compassion towards Frodo, he holds Frodo above his own quest, these are testaments to show that Aragorn will do whatever he can do to help to have this quest suceed, even if he sees it as little hope and foolish. Boromir, see's it as foolish, and wants nothing to do with it, as stated in previous chapters Boromir's moments come in when strength and fighting is needed, those are his strengths. All the other members can't bring themself to leaving. Legolas, Gimli, desire to stay in Lorien, but they move on, because they can't abandon Frodo now. Sam is about to turn aside, but Galadriel directs him in the right way, Merry and Pippin, there's not much on them in FOTR, but there's no evidence of them turning aside. Aragorn, we can tell he doesn't want to turn aside, for all the reasons I've stated above. The only one that can turn aside is Boromir, and eventhough Elrond makes it "legal" to "turn aside," say they are "free companions," doesn't mean it's the "moral" thing to do. One may legally get drunk, but doesn't make it the moral thing to do. I think I've repeated myself enough, and you are probably all tired of my crazy, whacked ramblings, so I'll stop. |
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11-03-2004, 05:37 PM | #23 | ||
Gibbering Gibbet
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One more thing
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In Celeborn’s parting words to Boromir we seem to be getting some foreshadowing to Ioreth and the “old wives’ tales” that will be one of the first things to proclaim Aragorn as the King; that Celeborn is saying this to Boromir is no accident, I think, as he is a Gondorian Man who still needs some convincing that Aragorn is the rightful leader. Boromir anticipates those Men of Minas Tirith who are perhaps too caught up in the manly pursuit of war to pay heed to the ‘woman’s wisdom’ that will announce that the King has come. The effect Galadriel’s song on Frodo is marvellous insofar as it seems to spring from a kind of art that achieves near absolute creativity. The language of her song is almost like the divine creative language insofar as it seems to create a new reality for Frodo, or, at least, to become a palpable part of his reality. Just as Eru sang the world into being (and just as God spoke the world into being – “let there be light”) so too does Galadriel’s song create and become memory. The experience of the song does not survive in his memory, but the song itself is like a memory that Galadriel puts there. So as with Celeborn’s words of warning to Boromir, femininity, memory and the necessity of paying attention to these are being emphasised. It’s almost as though Frodo is doing what Boromir cannot: Frodo is open to being ‘imprinted’ by the actual experience of the past embodied by the experience of Galadriel’s lament; Boromir is in danger of being closed to the same. We’ve done quite a bit in response to gender in these chapters and I think that here these issues are given some kind of resolution: Frodo remembers, absolutely, the feminine power of Lorien; Boromir is dangerously incapable or unwilling to heed the feminine, so devoted is he to the masculine. davem made the excellent point above about Aragorn’s sword and scabbard as combining male/phallic and female/yonic symbolism – is it going too far to suggest some kind of pattern here? Boromir/male: does not heed women’s tales; doesn’t think that anything they preserve is at all important. Frodo/female: heeds Galadriel’s song so closely that it literally enters his mind and becomes part of who he is. These two characters end up ‘unhappily’ although, obviously, in very different ways (although, perhaps, not all that different, insofar as – in the end – they are both wounded by the Ring which they have tried to claim for their own; and in each case, it is their very attempt to take the Ring that makes its destruction possible…) Only Aragorn is able to bring these two ‘sides’ into balance: he bears with him the memory of Lorien (as does Frodo) and he is heading toward reclaiming the inheritance held for him ‘in trust’ by the “old wives’ tales” of women like Ioreth.
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11-03-2004, 05:40 PM | #24 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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Boromir's duty
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In any event, my view is that Boromir had by now become so attached to Frodo, or more specifically that which Frodo was carrying, that he would not have left him even had the opportunity arisen. And assuming that to be the case, staying with the Fellowship was in fact morally the wrong course for him to take.
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11-03-2004, 07:01 PM | #25 | |||
Beloved Shadow
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And the next thing I was going to say... SPM beat me to it. Quote:
But going home to lead your kingdom's battle against evil? I don't see how the word "wrong" can possibly be associated with that. Quote:
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11-03-2004, 08:41 PM | #26 | |||
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11-04-2004, 07:05 AM | #27 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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I must thank everyone for this discussion of Boromir - I’ve been thinking a lot about him recently, & I think my opinions are changing. This will be a bit fumbling & possibly a bit contradictory, as I’m trying to put some thoughts together.
I think we have to ask what Tolkien actually wanted to do with Boromir. He goes, in the early drafts, from the only human presence in the Fellowship, through various phases, becoming a villain as [b]B88[/i] has indicated, to his final incarnation of flawed ‘hero’, bravely sacrificing himself for Merry & Pippin. The question is: is Boromir’s final incarnation simply an amalgam of bits & pieces from the earlier accounts & a foil for the others, or is he a valid character in his own right? Well, he’s believable - he doesn’t come across as an amalgam. He has many obvious faults, but also many virtues. As to the question of whether he would have left Frodo & gone on to Minas Tirith if he’d survived depends on whether he’d been overwhelmed by his desire for the Ring against his will, or whether he’d willingly surrendered to it. Did Tolkien intend him to be seen as a ‘Judas’ figure - a ‘satan’ within the Fellowship, the one who betrayed Frodo & brought about his death? It seems that he was motivated by desire for power - not simply power to defeat Sauron, but power for its own sake - yet that was natural in a sense: he’d been brought up to rule, & probably the only person he’d ever taken orders from was his father. This would put him in an incredibly difficult position, as he surrendered his natural authority first to Gandalf, then to Aragorn & finally (in a struggle he lost) to Frodo. He has gone from being a ruling ‘prince’ & commander, to a footsoldier having to obey orders. Lets give him his due, he submits to external authority better than many in his position would have. Certainly, all his suggestions are valid (apart from the last one he makes to Frodo). He may glory in war, but it is a ‘just’ war. His suggestion at the council, to use the Ring against Sauron, may have been dismissed but it was a rational reaction - he at least didn’t suggest throwing it into the sea! In the second branch of the Mabinogion, ‘Branwen, Daughter of Llyr’, we find two brothers - Nissien & Efnissien: Quote:
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Like Efnissien, Boromir is a great defender of his people, a great patriot, but this makes him intolerant & contemptuous of others - not uncommon in our own times - how many times do we hear, instead of ‘This is a great democracy’, ‘This is the greatest democracy’, or instead of ‘This is one of the best countries in the world’ that ‘This is the best country in the world’ with little or no evidence to back that claim up? Boromir is too certain of himself, his people & his nation, but while that may be a fault it is motivated by a sincere & deeply felt love. He would have died willingly for Gondor, but before he joined the Fellowship he wouldn’t have died for a couple of hobbits. Basically, his experiences break him of his pride & his desire, & that only becomes possible when he has sunk as low as possible. My own sense is that Boromir’s growing desperation is due less to a desire for the Ring - which is merely the catalyst - & more to an awakening into maturity. He’s fighting against all the values & beliefs he’s been brought up with - power, control, the superiority of Gondor - I think this is what the Ring comes to symbolise for him. Its this inner conflict which explodes in his confrontation with Frodo. Basically, he’s ‘torn in two’, fighting on two fronts. As much as anything his attempt to claim the Ring for himself is a temporary victory of his old self over his slowly emerging new self. I’m not sure I agree that his desire for the Ring would have re-asserted itself if he’d survived. A ‘madness’ took him, but it passed, & as Aragorn told him, in the end he had conquered. I’m starting to feel that Boromir’s story is one of spiritual growth - he begins as cocky, self assured & intolerant & is gradually humbled & eventually broken. In the end he arises as a new person. While it may have been better for the Company of Faramir had gone instead of Boromir, it wouldn’t have been better for Boromir. Effectively, he was saved in the end, & became a hero, but, more importantly, he became a good man. So, while perhaps we may find out a lot about Aragorn by comparing him with Boromir, I think Boromir is more than just a foil to the greater hero. |
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11-04-2004, 09:07 AM | #28 | ||
Deadnight Chanter
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11-04-2004, 09:10 AM | #29 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Alas, poor Boromir....
All this Boromir talk ....
Davem, I agree on your analysis you just posted. Boromir joining the fellowship for the wrong reasons...,, etc IMO strays a little from the authors intent (at least in the final version of the character). Comparing Boromir to Aragorn is like comparing Celeborn to Galadriel. Apples and oranges. On a symbolic level, the fellowship was a representation of the free peoples of ME. I love the Efnissien analogy. To me, Aragorn symbolized the ideal of mankind. Boromir symbolized the reality of men, especially at this time in ME. This was a very dirty, complex and hazardous time for men, esp in the south. They werent fighting Sauron for ideals, they were fighting him for survival. I dont think there was much concern for the other free peoples of ME, although Im sure that they would credit themselves as being the bulwark for their surivival for most of the 3rd age if the opportunity presented itself. With Boromir comes the complexities and politics of leadership of men that comes with dealing with these circumstances as well. With him we see the reality of humans as we are today, only juxtapositioned to the reality of his time, where more ancient principles or ideals still had an influence, as personified by elven leadership and even Aragorn himself. I also see Boromirs interaction and reaction with Galadriel as the real future of elf human relations if you will. Aragorn (and some of his lineage no doubt) held the hope for a higher ideal for mankind (based on a real physical link to elven culture), but in the big scheme of things, this was only a blip on the map. Boromir represented the reality of how men would relate to elves - wary - esp towards the otherworldly or witchcrafty elements of elves. Ignorant yes, but if your stuck in the "here and now" and do not posess the gifts that elves had, only the truly learned (or gifted) would not have this attitude. At the end of this chapter, I see Boromir affected in a positive way by the Lorien experience, if only by the confrontation of the feelings he had towards the ring and the mission. These are the same feelings he pronounced at the Council. Nothing has changed, exept perhaps his reflections now are on a deeper level. Elrond and Galadriel knew - his role in the mission was sort of a representation of the humans mission in ME - with all the weaknesses and flaws that men had, they were the ones who were going to be the dominant power for good that would be the only hope to counter Sauron. There simply werent enough elves (or Dunedain for that matter) to make a difference anymore. Regular men - just like us - who have the capability for both good and evil. If they could not fundamentally trust Boromir, then there really is no hope. Galadriel did not wake a sleeping monster in him, his monster resides in every human. |
11-04-2004, 01:30 PM | #30 | ||||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
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More Boromir ...
Tsk. Look at us all discussing Boromir when there is so much more in this Chapter. Then again, to my mind, he is one of the most complex and fascinating characters in the book.
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To my mind, Boromir's transformation from pride to humility does not occur until after he attempts to seize the Ring from Frodo. As I said, I like to think that he does truly repent at that point and find redemption, and the quote supplied by HI would support this view. Quote:
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As I have said previously, I believe that Boromir would have made a play for the Ring eventually, even without Galadriel revealing this desire to him - it just would have taken longer (and could, potentially, have been more dangerous).
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11-04-2004, 02:05 PM | #31 | ||
Beloved Shadow
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This is irrational-> expecting a hobbit to safely enter a heavily guarded land, travel for miles and miles without getting caught, and destroy a ring he could not willingly throw into his little fire at home. To Boromir this idea seems much more irrational than attempting to use the Ring. Boromir was a strong-willed man, a leader, and a righteous warrior. Someone so strong is likely to disbelieve the notion that they could be mastered or ensnared by a greater will, in this case the Ring, which leads to my next point... Quote:
Boromir was strong, and a leader, and was used to ruling and having his judgments heard and obeyed. He thought that he could use the Ring safely because he was strong, and he certainly had more faith in his own strength than in the apparent "folly" of the quest. For instance, if my little 6-year-old cousin and I found the Ring and were told "If you use the Ring it will take you over", my cousin wouldn't use it, but I might. Why? Because I'm weaker mentally? No. Because I'm strong- and I would believe that, despite the warning, my strength would be enough to do it. My cousin, on the other hand, is not used to doing things the way he pleases but used to following his elders and so would trust and obey the judgment of his elders. Do you understand what I mean?
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11-04-2004, 02:28 PM | #32 | ||||
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Phantom, you bring up some good points.
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11-05-2004, 04:22 AM | #33 | ||
Corpus Cacophonous
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11-05-2004, 05:28 AM | #34 |
The Perilous Poet
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And to augment SpM's point on that, it is not a particular criticism of Boromir that it is so. Of the Company, the Hobbits have an oft-discussed 'natural resistance', that although finite, was fairly evident. Aragorn is a special case, and 'less and more' of a man than Boromir, due to his lineage etc. Legolas and Gimli have a less natural desire for power than Boromir, so although perhaps the Dwarf would be subsumed by greed, it would be a different malaise to that which would have gripped the Gondorian. The Elves are written as possessing a greater 'moral fibre' in any case. In a way, I think the most dissent could come from the matter of Gandalf, who as a Maia one presumes would have had a strong resistance, that although it would eventually cave would hold out the longest... but think of his reaction in Bag End that once...
~Rim
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11-05-2004, 08:12 AM | #35 | |
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Or Sarumans for that matter - was he not the highest in his order? Was he not a Maia? I am not a Boromir defender by any means, I just suppose I have a different appreciation for the character. My point was that he did not succumb because of a personality flaw specific to him. He was def the most human out of the group - and with all the inherent strengths and weaknesses. The key in my mind was the leadership aspect. Consider: Both Saruman and Boromir were leaders. They both were on "the front line" if you will, dispatching orders, gathering and allocating resources and intelligence, making DECISIONS that affected others. Aragorn (during this time) was as well, but to a much smaller degree, mainly in the background (or in an underground resistance type of organization). His leadership was as yet unproven. So, IMO, his personal "stakes" were not as high as Boromirs. Plus, the blood flowing through Aragorns veins was much different than Boromirs, which I think implies that his strength of character had possibly a "more than human" advantage. Boromir was a captain, an heir to a Steward that - lets face it - was not looking like the best job in the world. I am sure he appreciated the effect it was having on his father. The ring was not the linchpin to the defeat of Sauron - it was the bloody tool that was used to bring so much death and misery to HIS people. |
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11-05-2004, 08:57 AM | #36 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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drigel: interesting.
And one point more: When Frodo asks Galadriel why he can't see the others when he has the ring on, she says (among other things) that he would have to train his will to the domination of others first. Gandalf and Aragorn both try hard to 'persuade' before they dominate. And it seems to me both Strider and Gandalf are used to working solo. Gandalf is very persuasive; Strider (eg. at the Inn at Bree) is fairly persuasive, but not superbly so. Boromir tries to be persuasive several times (during the counsel and during his fellowship experience) but he isn't particularly good at it-- I think because he's used to being obeyed. His will is already well-trained to the domination of others. |
11-05-2004, 09:14 AM | #37 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Making decisions\judgements that are life and death matters to people (at least in my mind - most assuredely by that point in time), and the dire situation that his country faces puts Boromir in a much different place than Aragorn. Its not a just a matter of weakness - its about experience, and perspective, and the weight of leadership and responcibility to those who you rule, human or Maia.
The monster i referred to at this level is much scarier than whats inside a woodland Elf Prince or a Dunadain Ranger in my mind. |
11-05-2004, 12:00 PM | #38 | |
Pilgrim Soul
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Sorry to interrupt... but I just wanted to say..
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11-05-2004, 04:32 PM | #39 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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A river runs through
Well, now that everyone has posted their thoughts about the psychology of Boromir, I can weigh in with my thoughts about the narrative requirements for the character. This is not to deny the very interesting comments which all have made here; I seem to be more interested less in the question of "what kind of person is Boromir" and more interested in the question, "if a writer throws various characters together on a quest, how are those characters determined by the needs of the quest and the story?"
In our discussions, we often seem to be moving between two poles, of realism and of fantasy. I would say that, for me, this chapter partakes more of sybolism than realism, although the later is not absent. What do I mean by this? I mean that so much of what is given here seems more than just ... given. There are portents to most aspects of the chapter which are in keeping with the nature of Lorien as the land of fairey. davem, your references to the Mabingolion increase my interest. The more I think about the old Celtic tales the more I think we should have a thread devoted to the uses Tolkien might have made of them. There is something more here than the oft-stated desire to creat a mythology for England. What do you think, davem? But to return to what I mean by the symbolic aspects of the chapter. It is, of course, the completion of this section which as Aiwendil has pointed out bears many structural affinities with the three chapter of respite in Book I. The Anduin is not just a river to traverse. It is not simply a conduit from Lothlorien to Minas Tirith but it is a threshold or liminal feature. It balances east and west. "On what side will you journey?" asks Celeborn of the Fellowship, the sides clearly representing on the west the side of light and on the east the side of dark. Boromir states that he will not take the darker shore and would prefer heading for MInas Tirith, but of course he will, ironically, take the darker shore. Here I think we have the subtle interplay of good and evil which suggests that Tolkien's world is not so easily demarcated between the two. For Frodo and Sam, this is a journey into the heart of darkness as much as Conrad's journey was. Of course, the gifts which the elves offer the Fellowship have their symbolic portents also. But what I think is important is the way this chapter very subtly sets up the roles of Boromir and Aragorn, not only in terms of the realism of character psychology but also in terms of what this quest means. Boromir is still thinking in terms of Gondor. Quote:
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The chapter concludes with that heartbreaking conversation between Legolas and Gimli which [b]Estelyn and Mithalwen[b] have already mentioned. What is this worst wound which Gimli has taken? It is not the warrior's wound which he had been preparing to take. Rather, it is the horrible wrenching which must come after he has found the greatest good for him. He must foresake the light and joy. Not for Gimli is the satan's test and challenge, for Gimli shall withstand it and not give in to his heart's desire. Beauty is as much a peril as evil. And the true hero is he who holds to the path and does not give in to his desires. It is not a question of being tricked by either Galadriel or the Ring: the responsibility lies within the person. (I would reference that old line from the TV show "Laugh-In" here: "The Devil made me do it.. At least I seem to remember that line being a joking refrain there.) Then the chapter concludes with the sombre imagery of a night journey upon a silent and desolate river. In the heart of Fairey there is still a lesson to be learned.
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11-06-2004, 03:13 AM | #40 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Still, this is a bit off topic, so I'll think about a thread. |
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