LotR3-RotK-Seq24

[alatar]

Sunset and evening star,
And one clear call for me!
And may there be no moaning of the bar,
When I put out to sea,

But such a tide as moving seems asleep,
Too full for sound and foam,
When that which drew from out the boundless deep
Turns again home.

Twilight and evening bell,
And after that the dark!
And may there be no sadness of farewell,
When I embark;

For though from out our bourne of Time and Place
The flood may bear me far,
I hope to see my Pilot face to face
When I have crost the bar. - Crossing the Bar by Alfred, Lord Tennyson


All is not black. Frodo lies asleep in bed amidst white light. Dead, or much like when he awoke from his foolishness following Weathertop and flight to the Ford, in the House of Elrond back in Rivendell. If you listen, you can hear the chirp of birds and the trickle of waters - the fountain in Minas Tirith perhaps? The voice of Ulmo? Frodo slowly awakens, and it’s clever that we first see a hand with all digits present and whole. Was it all a bad dream? But shortly thereafter the bandaged finger on the other hand (the left hand of the darned, I’ll note) confirms that it was all real. Mount Doom, Gollum, the Ring and then the Eagles.

You can see Frodo wondering where he’s at, and who this White Wizard is standing at the foot of his bed. It is Gandalf, more like the one that we left long ago in the Shire - the kindly wizard that smiles with his face, returned new from his death in Moria (and the miles between). The laughter begins, and that’s when the scene gets off track.

Gandalf is laughing, Frodo starts laughing, and then Merry and Pippin enter and they laugh and jump for joy at the sight of their healed cousin. Both jump upon the bed, and that’s weird - not for any implied message thing - but as it looks immature and just why would you jump upon the bed of someone that may still be somewhat ill? Pip and Merry take a step backwards on the maturity escalator here for me as, maybe due to my upbringing (no, they weren’t wolves), I’m just not big on such over-the-top displays of happiness, especially from the 20+ crowd. But that’s me.

Gimli enters, and behind the more sensibly restrained Dwarf struts the perfect one, Legolas. Aragorn walks next - all the while Pippin and Merry tussle with Frodo, who’s trying to see everyone. It’s like being at a wedding where the bride and groom are traversing the room trying to meet and greet all of the guests and you have some clod continually trying to dance with the bride or groom. Anyway…

So, while four adults look upon the risen Frodo, the other two continue to hug him and bounce him off of the bed. My kids would be expected to behave better (and they would). What was PJ thinking here? Sure, the cast gets to gather together again after their ordeal (and this is assuming that the scene was even filmed in sequence, which it most likely wasn’t), and maybe the four are in one part of the scene and the hobbits another (or some CG trick), but come on, sync up the action/atmosphere already as we have just too weird a scene.

Finally, last but not least, an adult hobbit enters - Sam. He and Frodo exchange looks like “we did it…there and back again,” and to me it’s much better than the two bouncy huggy puppies.

Fade to black. Is the movie over again?

We fly to the top of Minas Tirith (healed of all stains of war) to join in the coronation of King Elessar. Many many people attend. At the Citadel we see the Gondorian honor guard flanking the new King (plus a troop between the ‘in’ crowd and the common rabble. By the by, is this all that still live? It not, would not the city be filled with revelers and banners and flowers etc?). Gandalf places the crown upon Aragorn’s head, and I assume that Gimli gave the crown to Gandalf, or at least held the pillow upon which it set. Maybe Gimli had fetched the crown last worn by Eärnur as the Dwarf has much experience with old bones and dead kings.

Gimli’s dwarven jaw drops about the same distance as the crown as Gandalf lowers it to Aragorn’s brow, and I’m not sure why. Never see a Human with a crown before? Not sure why Gimli was given the honor of attending the King, and, come to think of it, why Gandalf either, except that he looked the most noble of the bunch. Is Aragorn’s back towards us for those who haven’t yet caught on that he it the returned king? Maybe a last surprise by PJ?

Gandalf announces and blesses the new King. I like the smiles between the actors, as they seem genuine. Aragorn, all decked out in kingly fashion, sighs then turns to face his people. The sigh is a nice touch as it seems, at least to me, that Aragorn isn’t happy with all of the pomp and circumstance - hopefully this means that Aragorn doesn’t become known as ‘the Arrogant.’ The people cheer! Huzzah!

Aragorn makes a speech, and it’s very nice and inclusive. Gimli is amazed by the flowering of the White Tree (I guess), and we see Éowyn and Faramir happy and together. Aragorn begins chanting, and it’s either elvish or Lakota, which Viggo sung so well in Hidalgo. Anyway, as he sings, we see the usual fantasy scenery - knights, princes and princesses and fluttery in the air (i.e. the end scene of Legend [1985]).

That guy - is his name Éomer or something? - also nods to the new King. Note that Gimli walks to the right side of Aragorn whereas King Éomer gets merely a row side standing place (“Thanks for all of the horses and help, now go fetch me an ale.”). Aragorn greets Legolas more informally, like he would have greeted Éomer had these two become brothers like in that textual telling, but… His cousin gives him the ‘over the shoulder’ nod, meaning, I guess, “Guess what other elf is here?!?” Elrond is there, but this isn’t what gets Aragorn’s blood rushing…it’s that woman behind curtain #2. It’s Arwen, alive, whether cold, warm, immortal or mortal, it doesn’t matter as she’s here! Remember, Aragorn may not have been certain that Arwen survived, so…Anyway, Liv looks great and splendidly elven. Elrond, quiet for once, seems a little sad as his daughter leaves and goes to cleave to her beau. Arwen seems almost tearful, perhaps overjoyed that she and Aragorn will finally be together. It’s been a long road since that bridge scene in the Fellowship of the Ring (Okay, there were the bedroom flashbacks, and I noted concerns about those here.). Aragorn takes that standard that she bears and quickly hands it off, wanting both hands free. Arwen bows, which is odd even to Aragorn, and then BAM! They kiss heartily. Ouch on the armor, but when you’re in love, you tend to be blinded to such things. The kiss, lasting quite long and not ‘formal’ in any way, brings a smile even to Dad.

Now both King and Queen continue the procession. Way way way in the back of the crowd stand the hobbits, and maybe due to the previous scene it was for everyone’s safety (“Can’t have that Pip jumping all over the newly crowned King this near a precipic”), but more possibly so that we could get to them last, those that were first in this long tale. The four hobbits bow to Aragorn, and he protests with, “My friends…you bow to no one.” Excellent! Viggo delivers the line perfectly, and you cannot but help being caught up in the emotion. Here is this new King, the hero of the story (plus the love interest), and he bows to them. Sure, we can argue that Merry and Pippin should catch a knee as well, but…

I like the look of Sam, who seems to be thinking, “Am I doing this right? Should I say something? Do I have spinach in my teeth?” The camera zooms in to the one person who made it all happen (with Sam’s help of course) - Frodo. It’s sad as we’ve been watching Elijah for three years now, and soon there’s to be no more.

Wonderfully we fly back to the Shire via the Map View of Middle Earth, which works so well. By flying over the locations that were a part of this incredible journey, we’re reminded of just how much we’ve watched and how much the characters have been through.

Frodo narrates this part, and I can make an argument for or against using either Elijah or Cate Blanchett. The hobbits return to the Shire, and now it is they that are looked upon as foreign and strange. Back at the Green Dragon there’s time for one last mug of ale (1420?) before even these companions part ways. Merry, Pippin, Sam and Frodo exchange looks as if to say, “Well, we’re back, no one cares and seemingly we’re about to start falling back to sleep.” They salute, mug fashion, and then Sam catches Rosie’s eyes, who looks back meaningfully at him as well. Sam screws himself up and goes to see her. What he does that merits the expressions of his companions is a mystery, but we see just thereafter that he and Rosie get married. Sam’s wish comes true.

Isn’t there something about Sean Astin’s wife being none too happy about the wedding kiss, or was it Sean?

Pip, of course, catches the bouquet, and there’s a laugh at that, but not, of course, from me. Sam now is truly happy, and you can see that Frodo is pleased that his friend and servant has begun this new life with Rosie.

Frodo, back in Bag End, now not as well-lit as it once was, realizes that for some there is no going back home. We see Frodo continuing Bilbo’s work, and you can see Gollum’s work as well. Significantly, Frodo retitles Bilbo’s work and makes to pass on the Red Book. Sam enters just as Frodo feels again the Witch-King’s blade, from that night back on Weathertop now four years hence. At least I now understand why Frodo can be jolly in the Dragon yet not so much now. His pain has grown and he wearies of this Middle Earth.

Gandalf drives a covered wagon through the Shire, bearing Uncle Bilbo for one last journey. Frodo and the other three hobbits ride along as well. Frodo explains to the now enfeebled Bilbo that he has a ticket to ride West, courtesy of the elves. Bilbo brings up the Ring, reminding us again that the addiction still remains for these two. Bilbo falls back asleep on Frodo’s shoulder, who in turn nods off as well.

We reach the Grey Havens, and, like in Rivendell, we see elvish architecture, but also the last days of the place - in need of some heavy duty gardening and a troll-sized leaf blower. Frodo and Sam escort Bilbo, who wakes up and realizes that he’s some place new. Elrond, Celeborn and Galadriel await the old hobbit. Where’s Cirdan - is he that guy in the back, and is he standing in a hole? At least we have Cate’s voice one last time. Elrond states that the sea calls them home, but I would have thought that it was what lies beyond that calls to the elves.

Bilbo picks up and walks unaided to the boat, excited about taking one last adventure. Elrond escorts him aboard. Cate grins with some secret knowledge and gets on the last boat with that guy she’s with…er…her husband. Gandalf, again with a staff (those things must grow on trees - except near Minas Tirith) makes his goodbye speech amidst welling eyes. Frodo, it is noted, does not weep. With one last smile Gandalf joins the other ‘Three’ Ringbearers and Bilbo aboard the ship.

But before Gandalf sets a boot upon the deck, he turns and indicates that Frodo’s time has come. His three companions realize now that Frodo is leaving them, like many fair folk and things now that the Fourth Age had begun. I love hearing Tolkien’s words as Frodo explains what’s going on to Sam. He gives Sam the Red Book of Westmarch, and the tears begin to flow. Frodo hugs Merry and Pippin without words, and we don’t need any. Again note that Frodo does not weep. Has his soul been that scarred? His hugging of faithful Sam is a true tear-jerker, and the kiss on the brow to me means that Sam is now heir to all that would have been Frodo’s - except for Bag End, of course.

Frodo takes the last ship with Gandalf. It’s then that his face shows emotion - a brightening, like the pain has already started to heal. We see the elvish ship sailing West into the setting sun towards Aman.

Fade to white. Are we done yet again?

Back in the Shire, we see Sam, now whole, returning home, but not to Bag End, as Sam’s home would be filled with life whereas, in this telling of the story, Frodo’s could not, to get the point across that he was not healing and growing like the rest of the Shire. Sam’s greeted by his daughter, wife and son while Frodo’s words are heard. Sam exclaims, “I’m back,’ just as he should. His family enters their hole, the doors shuts and now we truly have arrived at the end of all things.

Frodo lives, and PJ rocks!


***

Here at the end of all things I would like to thank all of you who, over these years, have read and/or posted to each thread, and in gratitude, I’ve resolved to give each and every one of you, free of charge, the Centennial Release of Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings movie trilogy*. I’ve learned a lot over these 17 or so months, not only about the movies but about the Downs as well. Found that Peter Jackson created something remarkable in these three films, and though he and I may not have always agreed, I cannot but be humbled by his efforts. Truly, it’s “Wow!”

Now that the last thread is posted, I’m hoping to go back and watch the films in a less ‘piecemeal’ fashion, and visit the commentaries and appendices again as well, and so I’m sure to continue posting here, as, as you well know by now, I’m adept at the art of ‘mote quibbling.’

It’s truly been a pleasure. - alatar


*Must be present (and alive) to receive offer.

[Elmo]

Just a couple of quick points - every movie only person I've spoken to wondered where on Earth Frodo and Elrond were going and why it was such a big deal them going, wasn't there a return ferry or something and also, I sat beside this guy in the theatre who started to rise after every 'ending' and started to mutter to himself loudly about 'when will this damn movie ever end' before Frodo sailed away.

EDIT: Oh yeah I've only been on this board a short time so I've not been with you from the start but thanks for giving me lots of quality reading on the films P.S. I'll hold you to the DVD by the way I plan to live forever...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight

Just a couple of quick points - every movie only person I've spoken to wondered where on Earth Frodo and Elrond were going and why it was such a big deal them going, wasn't there a return ferry or something and also, I sat beside this guy in the theatre who started to rise after every 'ending' and started to mutter to himself loudly about 'when will this damn movie ever end' before Frodo sailed away.

And to think that for me and my wife, the movie ended too quickly.

EDIT: Oh yeah I've only been on this board a short time so I've not been with you from the start but thanks for giving me lots of quality reading on the films P.S. I'll hold you to the DVD by the way I plan to live forever...

You're most welcome, and note that I didn't say DVD as I'm guessing that that media format will have gone the way of stone tablets by then. Regardless, one 'whatever' will have your name on it .

[Essex]

All I've got to say, for now, wiping away a tear is

WELL DONE ALATAR

[Sir Kohran]

I was going to type up something big, moving, long, inspiring and touching...but then I realized there was no need; this thread, and the wonderful scenes accompanying it, create all those bittersweet, moving emotions by themselves. All I'll say is thank you, to Peter Jackson for creating one of the greatest movies in history, to John Ronald Reuel Tolkien for creating the greatest literary epic in history, to all the others who contributed some of the greatest posts in history, and to alatar for creating the greatest discussion of all of the above in history.
Thanks, everyone.




I sit beside the fire and think
of all that I have seen,
of meadow-flowers and butterflies
in summers that have been;

Of yellow leaves and gossamer
in autumns that there were,
with morning mist and silver sun
and wind upon my hair.

I sit besides the fire and think
of how the world will be
when winter comes without a spring
that I shall ever see.

For there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green.

I sit beside the fire and think
of people long ago,
and people who will see a world
that I shall never know.

But all the while I sit and think
of times there were before,
I listen for running feet
and voices at the door.


- Bilbo

[Essex]

The (in)famous bedroom scene......You won't be surprised to hear that I have no problems with this scene. I think PJ has said somewhere that his characters deserve this 'ending' - we've been with them for nigh on 11 hours now and they have been through a lot. Some people may see this as corny, but hey, come on - Frodo (and Sam) have saved Middle-earth - frodo's seen a great friend who he knew was dead come back to life - his cousins bound in and are overjoyed to see him - who wouldn't do exactly the same in merry or pippin's place? laughing and joking and comparing war wounds with Frodo now that the ME is 'free' and saved from Sauron? they are entitled to their 'immaturity' here - joy can overcome our maturity and turn us into kids now and then. I cried like a baby when Aragorn and co bowed to the hobbits because of my joy - it doesn't make me 'less mature' - but I admit I did cover my face in the cinema when I was balling my eyes out trying to be more adult LOL!

Finally, last but not least, an adult hobbit enters - Sam. He and Frodo exchange looks like “we did it…there and back again

It's amazing, throughout this trilogy, what PJ can get his actors to convey with just a look. This one surpases most of them. You can read SO much into this look - love, completion, and a sense of the two hobbits being 'equal' in stature - though Sam would never accept this of course.

Fade to black. Is the movie over again?

I really don't give a monkey about whether none book readers thought the film was over or not. Too bad. Should have read the book first you phillistines!

Gandalf places the crown upon Aragorn’s head, and I assume that Gimli gave the crown to Gandalf, or at least held the pillow upon which it set.

Couldn't have book Frodo do this as Aragorn needs to bow to all of the hobbits as our climax to this scene.

“My friends…you bow to no one.”

My favourite part of the Trilogy. I still well up when I watch it now. Sacriligeous I know, but this works even better in the film as it does in the book where Aragorn kneels to Sam and Merry in the Field of Cormallen.

The hobbits return to the Shire, and now it is they that are looked upon as foreign and strange. Back at the Green Dragon there’s time for one last mug of ale (1420?) before even these companions part ways. Merry, Pippin, Sam and Frodo exchange looks as if to say, “Well, we’re back, no one cares and seemingly we’re about to start falling back to sleep.”

Very clever use of the pumpkin to show that these 4 little hobbits (well 2 of them not so small now!) who are 'amongst the Great' are just bog standard normal peopl in the eyes of the Hobbitons. It shows their great modesty and maturity that they don't go jumping up exclaiming to the crowds what they've done and how great they are. the look on their faces (again great direction from PJ) says it all.........


Frodo's narration in Bag End

(sigh) - this is wonderful, but so melancholy. It makes me sad every time I listen. Just so masterfully put together.

Sam enters just as Frodo feels again the Witch-King’s blade, from that night back on Weathertop now four years hence.

I think it's mainly shown as 4 years in the movie so Sean Astin could have his daughter in the following scenes as Rosie?


Grey Havens

I was cried out at this moment from the last 15 minutes or so, so this doesn't have the impact the Book has on me every time I read it. There's a few chapters between the events of the last 15 mins in the book of course (scouring, saruman etc)

I'm not sure whether it works or not, not having Frodo crying as he gets ready to say goodbye to his friends for the last time.

Frodo takes the last ship with Gandalf. It’s then that his face shows emotion - a brightening, like the pain has already started to heal.

A marvelous book end to the first smile when we see Frodo under the tree and jump up as Gandalf comes ambling by at the start of the Trilogy. I love the little nod to his compatriots as well - well done lads - you've done a great job!

Finally, and this goes against my main stance for the past 17 months on these discussion boards, but I've got to start at some point(!) - I'll end with a couple of down points for now!

I was dissapointed that we had no extra scenes all the way from Gollum's attack on the slopes of Mount Doom to the end of the movie - REALLY dissapointed.

And was also sad in both versions, that we don't have the follow on scenes for the rest of the fellowship - when I read these scenes in the tale of the years they still make me shed a tear.

I know we need to finish of with 'I'm Back' - but you never know - in the next version (HD hopefully) of the film PJ might add something in - I know he filmed some stuff concerning the later events.

Anyway, 'tis done. Well done to Alatar and all the posters on these threads. Now what can we think to discuss next?





PS - added my thanks to the Feedback and suggestions board - maybe others would like to follow.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

The (in)famous bedroom scene......You won't be surprised to hear that I have no problems with this scene. I think PJ has said somewhere that his characters deserve this 'ending' - we've been with them for nigh on 11 hours now and they have been through a lot. Some people may see this as corny, but hey, come on - Frodo (and Sam) have saved Middle-earth - frodo's seen a great friend who he knew was dead come back to life - his cousins bound in and are overjoyed to see him - who wouldn't do exactly the same in merry or pippin's place?

Me and many other people I know that consider Merry and Pippin's behaviour weird, excessive and/or smarmy.

laughing and joking and comparing war wounds with Frodo now that the ME is 'free' and saved from Sauron? they are entitled to their 'immaturity' here - joy can overcome our maturity and turn us into kids now and then.

But the whole story arc for these two was that they 'grew.' We saw even Pip take responsibility and care for Merry. Now we have these two narcissists hogging Frodo. If you must bounce and hug Frodo so be it, but get it out of your system and give the others a chance (can you imagine eight persons on the bed doing the same thing? Hey, they beat Sauron, and so it's okay... ).

I cried like a baby when Aragorn and co bowed to the hobbits because of my joy - it doesn't make me 'less mature' - but I admit I did cover my face in the cinema when I was balling my eyes out trying to be more adult LOL!

I well up as well, and I do not consider tears immature, but if you balled at every sappy commercial on TV or laughed/cried each time a cloud passed in front of the sun, I might consider that you have issues. My issue is that I had to suffer the diminuation of Gandalf as it moved the story along or whatever and yet I cannot have the bouncy beans take a chill pill as that's what they (the actors) I guess wanted to do.

It's amazing, throughout this trilogy, what PJ can get his actors to convey with just a look. This one surpases most of them. You can read SO much into this look - love, completion, and a sense of the two hobbits being 'equal' in stature - though Sam would never accept this of course.

Exactly. Do we really need Merry and Pippin to be so excessive in their joy (I'm suddenly thinking of excited dogs, but won't go there) when we have so much more said in a simple look?

I really don't give a monkey about whether none book readers thought the film was over or not. Too bad. Should have read the book first you phillistines!

Typically people want more for their money, yet here...I guess there should have been a warning not to exert oneself (getting up out of one's seat after a bucket of popcorn and Coke) until the credit rolled. What were these people trying to do - beat traffic?

My favourite part of the Trilogy. I still well up when I watch it now. Sacriligeous I know, but this works even better in the film as it does in the book where Aragorn kneels to Sam and Merry in the Field of Cormallen.

Agreed. It works without bouncing on a bed.

Very clever use of the pumpkin to show that these 4 little hobbits (well 2 of them not so small now!) who are 'amongst the Great' are just bog standard normal peopl in the eyes of the Hobbitons. It shows their great modesty and maturity that they don't go jumping up exclaiming to the crowds what they've done and how great they are. the look on their faces (again great direction from PJ) says it all.........

Couldn't think of how to work that point in, but it's clear to those that see that the Pumpkin of Incredible Size is more newsworthy than the four heroes of the age. I'm not surprised.

I was cried out at this moment from the last 15 minutes or so, so this doesn't have the impact the Book has on me every time I read it. There's a few chapters between the events of the last 15 mins in the book of course (scouring, saruman etc)

Seeing it is much more emotive than reading it. It's the looks, the tears, the music - it all gets you in that place where you keep your jar of loneliness and loss.

I'm not sure whether it works or not, not having Frodo crying as he gets ready to say goodbye to his friends for the last time.

My illiterate sister noted this and it bothered her. She thought that the reason that Frodo had to leave was that he was sick - couldn't 'feel' and so went to die somewhere in the West.

Finally, and this goes against my main stance for the past 17 months on these discussion boards, but I've got to start at some point(!) - I'll end with a couple of down points for now!

Now I've seen everything!

I was dissapointed that we had no extra scenes all the way from Gollum's attack on the slopes of Mount Doom to the end of the movie - REALLY dissapointed.

What else would you have liked to have seen in regards to PJ's story? A shot of Legolas and Gimli departing for their new adventures? A drunken Gimli snogging Galadriel?

And was also sad in both versions, that we don't have the follow on scenes for the rest of the fellowship - when I read these scenes in the tale of the years they still make me shed a tear.

All good things - even many bad things - eventually come to an end. Isn't it interesting that the life of the Fellowship, in book and movie form, can evoke such emotions but the persons down the street are below one's radar?

Anyway, 'tis done. Well done to Alatar and all the posters on these threads. Now what can we think to discuss next? PS - added my thanks to the Feedback and suggestions board - maybe others would like to follow.

You've been far too kind, and let's not discount the role that you and others have played in this collaborative work as well.

[Essex]

Alatar, get over the bed hopping!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

Alatar, get over the bed hopping!

...as soon as the nightmares stop.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I can permit the bed hopping. If it wasn't done silently, it might have been a problem. But PJ, in these last fifteen minutes, makes an important point from Tolkien: that although M and P were affected by their adventures and journeys, it wasn't in the same way as Sam was. I think this is one way in which PJ does it. Another is in the coronation scene, when the people bow to the four hobbits. All four look touched to some degree, but we notice that Merry and Pippin's expressions are pretty different from Frodo and Sam's. Again, later in the Grey Havens, Merry and Pippin turn away from the ship toward home while Sam continues to look into the horizon.

Notice that although Frodo utters the names of Gandalf, Gimli, and Aragorn, he doesn't say anything when Legolas enters the room. Was it because Pippin had knocked the wind out of him, or did he just forget the Elf's name?

What think ye of 'Gorn's crown? It's certainly not the one Tolkien envisioned; JRRT actually made a drawing of the crown and you can see it in his Letters. It works OK, but I would have preferred Tolkien's.

Interesting to see Agent Elrond tearing up in joy. Note that the only times we really see him smile are his first and last appearances in the films; I'm not counting his grim grin as he announces the Fellowship's formation.

Elijah Wood just does some brilliant voiceover here, and I think he was definitely the right choice. He's a much-maligned Frodo and seems to be a fanboy-type in real life, but he's an outstanding actor and does a phenomenal job from beginning to end.

Love some of the humor here in the return to the Shire: the reaction shot from Proudfoot, the reactions from the three hobbits as Sam does whatever to Rosie, and Pippin catching the bouquet.

The music is absolutely haunting as the Grey Havens scene begins, and it's great throughout the scene.

According to the BTS documentaries, the GH scene was filmed not once, not twice, but three times. The first shoot was rendered unusable because Sean Astin took off his vest for lunch break and forgot to put it back on for the afternoon. The second shoot turned out to be out of focus. But third time paid for all, or something like that. Imagine being Wood, Astin, Monaghan, and Boyd, and having to do that scene three separate times!

The final shot of Sam returning to his home is just that: a single shot. Simple, wide, then zooming in, letting us see what we need to see. Notice that Rosie and not one but two of Sam's children are there to greet him. The second is, of course, Frodo-lad, and doesn't he look like the Ringbearer? Cool thing, that.

"Well, I'm back", and then we're on to the credits! Wait, you mean that's it? No more? Never fear; in good time we'll have the Super Duper Deluxe Extended Extended LOTR To End All LOTR Edition, and then we'll get to see Sam's struggle with the Two Watchers, as well as Legolas and Gimli's fortunes after the War!

Or perhaps not. Oh well, PJ, it's been a pretty good ride anyway! Thanks for giving me my three favorite movies (or is it my one favorite movie?) of all time! Don't know what Tolkien would say, but it's not bad, not bad at all!

[Essex]

Alatar, re

Originally Posted by alatar

Me and many other people I know that consider Merry and Pippin's behaviour weird, excessive and/or smarmy.

But the whole story arc for these two was that they 'grew.' We saw even Pip take responsibility and care for Merry. Now we have these two narcissists hogging Frodo. If you must bounce and hug Frodo so be it, but get it out of your system and give the others a chance (can you imagine eight persons on the bed doing the same thing?

.....I cannot have the bouncy beans take a chill pill as that's what they (the actors) I guess wanted to do.

....Do we really need Merry and Pippin to be so excessive in their joy (I'm suddenly thinking of excited dogs, but won't go there) when we have so much more said in a simple look?

....It works without bouncing on a bed.

Let's take a look at what Book Sam felt when he woke up.

But Sam lay back, and stared with open mouth, and for a moment, between bewilderment and great joy, he could not answer. At last he gasped: 'Gandalf! I thought you were dead! But then I thought I was dead myself. Is everything sad going to come untrue? What's happened to the world?'
'A great Shadow has departed,' said Gandalf, and then he laughed and the sound was like music, or like water in a parched land; and as he listened the thought came to Sam that he had not heard laughter, the pure sound of merriment, for days upon days without count. It fell upon his ears like the echo of all the joys he had ever known. But he himself burst into tears. Then, as a sweet rain will pass down a wind of spring and the sun will shine out the clearer, his tears ceased, and his laughter welled up, and laughing he sprang from his bed.
'How do I feel?' he cried. 'Well, I don't know how to say it. I feel, I feel' – he waved his arms in the air – 'I feel like spring after winter, and sun on the leaves; and like trumpets and harps and all the songs I have ever heard!'

So Sam can have these 'exsessive' and joyous thoughts, so why not Pippin and Merry? They went through a fair bit too, let's be honest.

Therefore, I don't see Pipin and Merry's joy being neither weird, excessive nor smarmy!

PS - I didn't realise Jackson took Gandalf's laugh from the book as well. Well Done. (well, ok it was for Sam not Frodo, but I can forgive him that)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

Let's take a look at what Book Sam felt when he woke up. So Sam can have these 'exsessive' and joyous thoughts, so why not Pippin and Merry? They went through a fair bit too, let's be honest.

Therefore, I don't see Pipin and Merry's joy being neither weird, excessive nor smarmy!

PS - I didn't realise Jackson took Gandalf's laugh from the book as well. Well Done. (well, ok it was for Sam not Frodo, but I can forgive him that)

Since when do we consider what's in the Books to dictate what can be on the screen? Surely Sam and the others were overjoyed by the Fall of Sauron and the joy of making it through the storm alive. But why then is Sam restrained in his joy whereas Merry and Pippin act like the fools from back in the Shire? I know that this is sounding repetitive, but why can't Merry and Pip have a moment of joy then move aside to allow others access to their 'saviour?' Not only is it weird (my opinion), but after the first few seconds it then becomes hammy, where you start hearing the scene director yelling, "Keep bouncing! More joy! Billy? Do a flip or something? Can we get some jugglers?"

Me thinks that it comes down to personal preference...some, I guess, don't find a bunch of adults bouncing on the bed of a healing companion essexive...oops! I mean excessive.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by alatar

Since when do we consider what's in the Books to dictate what can be on the screen?

Alatar, pity we don't have an 'Ironic' smiley to use in this circumstance! I'm sure you were being Ironic there weren't you?

Of course we want as much from the books to dictate what we see on the screen!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

Alatar, pity we don't have an 'Ironic' smiley to use in this circumstance! I'm sure you were being Ironic there weren't you?

I think that I was being serious.

Of course we want as much from the books to dictate what we see on the screen!

So why do we get, straight from the books, as you presume, the happy bouncing bed scene, yet do not get Gandalf being the member of the Fellowship to suggest the dark road of Moria (Even worse, Gandalf suggests that they try the Gap!), or Eomer as the brother of Aragorn? Why is it that, when it comes to getting it right with the books, my view is always the path less taken?

I know; it's me.

[Essex]

I said we WANT. Not we GET. Of course we want the film to be as close to the book as it is. Except maybe for the couple of mistakes Tolkien himself made in the editing of his timelines, etc. (Sorry, just being picky with the Bard)

So let's scrap the entire scene and have Sam wake up and meet Gandalf with Frodo already awake. As it's this in the books, then let's have that. But do you really think we the readers can dictate what will be on a Movie adaptation just becasue it's not exactly like it is in the books? So therefore, let's not have a reunion scene with the main characters. For the uninitiated, non book reader (which I put it to you were the VAST majority of people going to see this movie, first time at least!), NOT to have a 'happy ending(s)' like this with the characters celebrating together would be silly.

[alatar]

Again, I've let go and have immersed myself in PJ's world, which is based on, however loosely, on Tolkien's work. We can use the books for guidance but need to tell the story well in the media that we use.

Regardless of whether PJ follows the books or makes up a scene from whole new cloth, he should be at least consistent with the story, characters, 'feel' of the movie and arc. By this scene one would hope that the characters were set for the most part. Why then, after having Merry and Pippin "grow" do we have to jump back to their origins of being selfish fools, then just thereafter, when they return to the Shire, behave more as one would expect.

[Essex]

so Sam, as I have shown above, was allowed to 'regress' in the book - why can't Merry and Pippin show their joy in the movie? I think this is nit picking to the nth degree.

[alatar]

I did not see the scene where Sam cries as overblown nor out of character, much less creepy. Bottom line - I did not like Merry and Pippin's behaviour in the scene, just as you think that 'President' Bill Pullman's immortal words in ID4 are hokey.

I can see that we've reached an impasse. I hope to listen to what the actors think about this scene, and will report on how they agree with me...or what they think soon.

[alatar]

In the Cast Commentary, Elijah Wood describes the scene as "a little bit Dorothy waking up, being in Oz..." and it seems at least to me that Elijah has some doubts about the scene, but PJ reassures him that all will be well - need I say more?

Orlando Bloom states that Merry and Pippin's entrance and demeanor were "perfect."

Elijah calls it the "laughter scene," and adds more about how much everyone was laughing. Sean Astin describes it as "angelic and beautiful." When Merry dives on the bed, Dominic Monaghan says that he didn't know what he was doing there, "but Pete obviously must have liked it."

Peter Jackson states that it would be a difficult scene, and that he asked Ian's (McKellan) advice, which was for everyone to laugh. Philippa Boyens says that "some people hate this stuff" and so she must have received my letter .

The Production team states that these scenes are "coda," and that the movie really ended with Frodo in the Eagle's clutches. There seems to have been the choice of all smiles or laughter, and we see which the team chose. Gandalf and the hobbits are actually in the scene together, and the other "heroes" are digitally stitched in, which may explain why they react differently, not seeing what's going on. Someone from this team states that the scene was originally longer, with the action in even more slow-motion, but the scene was sped up as it was deemed pretty much unnecessary. The point from this team's point of view that the thought was to reunite Frodo with Gandalf, and the rest was 'extra.'

Just thought you might want to know.