How do you pronounce Elessar?

[Alatariel]

This has been bugging me for ages now... at first I thought it was Elessar, but then I suddenly thought that it might me Elessar... Someone please tell me which is right!

[ September 25, 2002: Message edited by: Alatàriel ]

[DarkRose]

I'm not completely positive, but I believe its:

Elessar. [Put a bit of stress on 'El']

I could be wrong though.

[Elenna]

Well, I always thought it was elESSar, but in the movie the ring whispers ELessar.

I don't know, and JRR Tolkien is somewhat dead, so we can't ask him...

[merlilot]

I thought the stress was Elessar in the movie... and thats how I think it is anyway.

You could go to the language foruma nd ask one of the Quenya experts, I suppose....

[Morgoth Bauglir]

ELessar

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

don't know, and JRR Tolkien is somewhat dead, so we can't ask him...

I wonder if the quote worked....anyway, Yes, Jrr tolkien is dead, but so is everyone else here.....

I always thought in my mind it was elESSar....I dont know though. I though I was wrong because in the movie the ring said it and it sounded like ELessar.

But I could barely hear the whispers anyway

-aylwen

[Nevfeniel]

I find it easier (for me) to pronounce it Elessar. Even if I'm wrong, that's how I'll pronounce it.

[Galadrie1]

I've always pronouced it ELessar. You should ask in the Language Forum...

[Arwen Imladris]

What about Elessar??

I don't, just want to be argumentitive. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Elrian]

E'lessar

According to the encyclopedia of Arda Elendil is pronounced E'lendeel, Elbereth as E'lbereth, and Elrond as E'lrond.

[ September 25, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[Tirned Tinnu]

Interesting. I've heard it pronounced several ways, depending on the actor.
I have always liked this form:
EL-es-SAR
It is better to take words by syllable, and determine when Tolkien said that there were doubled letters that it indicated two syllables.
EL-essar would not be correct in that case.
EL appeared to be a functioning part of the name, as TAR was...but I know this is also a portion of a word. Can someone clarify the meaning, and take apart the name for us?
I don't have my copy in front of me as I'm at work.

[ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

[Birdland]

I'm with Arwyn and Tirned - el-ess-'SAR

You know, like that After The Fire song from the 80's: "Alles klar, Herr Elessar?"

[Bêthberry]

Yes, Jrr tolkien is dead, but so is everyone else here.....

Good one, Aylwen!.

I'm with the Beatles on this one. Back in the El-es, back in the El-es, back in the El-es-s-r.

Bethberry

[Estelyn Telcontar]

All three syllables are accented evenly in the 'Song of Arwen' - and she ought to know!! Unfortunately, it was changed when Julie Andrews sang it in 'Sound of Music'; originally it went like this:
"El-es-sar, El-es-sar, you look happy to greet me..."

[Tirned Tinnu]

You people are all NUTZ! This is the only place where anyone would have geard of "Edelweiss" besides me! Guees that's saying something ...heh...yesh, I'm nutz too..heh

[Alatariel]

Thanks Elrian, I'm willing to trust the Encyclopedia of Arda! But if anyone comes up with any other sources, please let me know!

PS I know the song Eidelweiss too! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Sharkû]

Well, there is this very obscure and hard to get source called Appendix E to The Lord of the Rings... let's see what that has to say!

"STRESS
The position of the 'accent' or stress is not marked, since in the Eldarin languages concerned its place is determined by the form of the word. In words of two syllables it falls in practically all cases on the first syllable. In longer words it falls on the last syllable but one, where that contains a long vowel, a diphthong, or a vowel followed by two (or more) consonants. Where the last syllable but one contains (as often) a short vowel followed by only one (or no) consonant, the stress falls on the syllable before it, the third from the end. Words of the last form are favoured in the Eldarin languages, especially Quenya.
In the following examples the stressed vowel is marked by a capital letter: isIldur, Orome, erEssëa, fËanor, ancAlima, elentÁri; dEnethor, periAnnath, ecthElion, pelArgir, silIvren. Words of the type elentÁri 'star-queen' seldom occur in Quenya where the vowel is é, á, ó, unless (as in this case) they are compounds; they are commoner with the vowels í, ú, as andÚne 'sunset, west'. They do not occur in Sindarin except in compounds. Note that Sindarin dh, th, ch are single consonants and represent single letters in the original scripts."

[Bêthberry]

Sharkû,

Forgive me if this is an ignorant point, since I have never studied Tolkien's languages, but my difficulty with that passage from Appendix E is that it does not define how syllables are determined. I have not been able to find this at the Ardalambrion site, either.

Syllabification differs not only between languages, (the Larousse French dictionary, for example, does not give syllables, whereas many English dictionaries do) but between dialects. My Random House College Dictionary, for example, states that it follows American practices for syllables. My OED doesn't show syllables.

So, where do the syllables fall in Elessar? We have three syllables (unless that second e is swallowed)[El-ssar] but depending on where we determine them, that guideline from Appendix E gives us different pronunciations, even assuming the second 'e' is short. How many consonants are in that second syllable?

E--le--ssar
E--les--sar
E--less-ar

El--ess--ar
El--es--sar*
El--e--ssar

If that last syllable but one has a short vowel and one or no consonants, then stress falls on that first syllable. We could still have:

E' lessar or El' essar, could we not? We could still make that second 'e' long, too.

I know what the patterns are in English, but do they pertain to this name?

I don't think Appendix E answers the question, but of course I could be missing something that should be staring me in the face but isn't on a Friday morning.

Bethberry

[Turambar]

Bethberry -- good point, but I think the syllabification (sp?) is El-ess-ar and if so, Appendix E states:

"In longer words it falls on the last syllable but one, where that contains a long vowel, a diphthong, or a vowel followed by two (or more) consonants."

Which leaves us with "el-ESS-ar", which is how I always pronounced it. But I have no evidence to support this syllabification. The BBC radio play of LotR pronounces it this way, for what that's worth.

P.s. I think threads like this, while not as weighty as others, are useful. At one point I didn't even know how to pronounce "Tolkien" and someone (in a thread like this one) told me that it was definitely tol-KEEN. Or was it TOL-keen? I forgot again. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: Turambar ]

[Bêthberry]

But is there any evidence that the second 'e' is long rather than short?


And why can't it be: El--ES-sar, short e?

[Turambar]

I thought the second "e" was short, but is accented because it is followed by two consonants. But I agree - there's no proof (that I know of) that the 2d "s" goes in the second syllable rather than the third.

[Bêthberry]

Has anyone heard Tolkien pronounce the name in any of the tapes he made? *is too lazy to go check her audio tape now, with excerpts from bk6 of ROTK*

[Alatariel]

Gosh, I seem to have started quite a discusion here! So at the moment we seem to be leaning towards El-ESS-ar... who knows what further developments there will be... *sits back and watches this space*

I believe nationality plays a part in one's pronounciation dont you? While it is true that what Tolkien says goes, we still have the english saying eg. al-you-min-e-um and the americans saying a-LOOM-inum. You say tomayta and I say tomato. It's all good...or is it??? Personally, I say
El-ESS-ar but Eles-SAR is growing on me for its frenchnessness. Isn't language amazing? Especially when you invent your own words. I think Tolkien was onto something....

[Sharkû]

Elessar definitely has three syllables since there are no mute consonants in proper Quenya or Sindarin.

The middle e is short since it does not bear the acute accent.

"Note that consonants written twice, as tt, ll, ss, nn, represent long or 'double' consonants." (App. E)

That (for purposes of stressing etc.) those true "long consonants" count as two is obvious from the example Tolkien gave in the paragraph about stress: periAnnath. Here we have exactly the same case as in Elessar, a short vowel followed by two or more consonants (obviously including 'long' consonants).

It is of no importance to which syllable the ss belongs. It follows the vowel of the second but last syllable, at the core of which is the syllable-defining vowel, and that is what constitutes the stress pattern explained above. It does not say "followed by two (or more) consonants within the very same syllable", and it need not say that.

[ September 28, 2002: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

[Bêthberry]

In my audiotape, Tolkien clearly demonstrates the pattern Sharkû explains, not for Elessar (never named as such) but for Pelennor Fields, which is PeLENNor Fields, which I had previously read as PELennor.

[ September 29, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

[Alatariel]

I always pronounced Pelennor PELennor too... odd that.
So it's ElESSar... thanks everyone [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Birdland]

So is it "Pe-LENN-or" and "E-LESS-ar" or is it "Pel-ENN-or" and "El-ESS-ar"?

The second way doesn't exactly roll trippingly off the tongue.

[ September 29, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Bêthberry]

I don't think the paragraph on stress can explain that, Birdie, but on my audiotape, Tolkien clearly says, "Pe-LENN-or".

And on the tape I heard this morning, Tolkien says -- *drum roll* -- "e-LESS-ar."

[Birdland]

Well, it's his word. (Birdie bangs gavel) Case closed!

Be interesting to hear how the actors pronounce it.

[Lostgaeriel]

Thank Eru the pronunciation of Elessar has been established beyond any doubt!

But I must, I must, I must clarify Varda's Wilwarin's comment:

I believe nationality plays a part in one's pronounciation dont you? While it is true that what Tolkien says goes, we still have the english saying eg. al-you-min-e-um and the americans saying a-LOOM-inum.

The reason the English pronounce it al-you-min-e-um is because they spell it 'aluminium'. The American spelling is 'aluminum'. Thus the different pronunciation.