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#1 |
King's Writer
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So, now for the last section:
Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned below (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned) Bold Text source information, comments and remarks { } = text that should be deleted [ ] = normalised text <source > = additions with source information example = text inserted for garmatical reason / / = outline expansion The basic text is that of The Tale of the Nauglafring. Since full-text quoting is not appropirate any longer, I will only give the starting words of each paragraph of the basic text and all editions or delitions, but not the regular changes. §43a (§32) RD-FP-01 <QS30 Now the Dwarf-road to Nogrod{ and Belegost} in the Blue Mountains passed through East Beleriand and the woods about the River Gelion, where aforetime were the hunting grounds of {Damrod and Diriel}[Amrod], son{s} of Féanor. To the south of those lands between the river and the mountains lay the land of {Assariad}[Ossiriand], and there lived and wandered still in peace and bliss Beren and Lúthien, in that time of respite which Lúthien had won, ere both should die; and their folk were the Green Elves of the South, who were not of the Elves of {Côr}[Tirion], nor of Doriath, though many had fought at the [First ]Battle of {Unnumbered Tears}[Beleriand].> RD-FP-02 And at<Sil77 {At} that time Beren and Lúthien{ yet} dwelt in Tol Galen, the Green Isle, in the River Adurant, southernmost of the streams that falling from Ered Lindon flowed down to join with Gelion; and their son Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel. The sons of Dior and Nimloth were Eluréd and Elurín; and a daughter also was born to them, and she was named Elwing, which is Star-spray, for she was born on a night of stars, whose light glittered in the spray of the waterfall of Lanthir Lamath beside her father's house.> RD-FP-03 <QS30 But Beren went no more to war, and his land was filled with loveliness and a wealth of flowers; and while Beren was and Lúthien remained Men called it oft {Cuilwarthien}[Dor Firn-i-Guinar], the Land of the Dead that Live. §43b (§33) To the north of that region is a ford across the river {Ascar}[Gelion], near to its joining with {Duilwen}[Ascar] that falls in torrents from the mountains; and that ford is named {Sarn-athra}[ Sarn Athrad], the Ford of Stones. This ford the Dwarves must past ere they reached their homes}.> §44 (§34) RD-FP-04 <Sil77 Now word went swiftly among the Elves of Ossiriand that a great host of Dwarves bearing gear of war had come down out of the mountains and passed over Gelion at the Ford of Stones. These tidings came soon to Beren and Lúthien; and in that time also a messenger came to them out of Doriath telling of what had befallen there{.}>: ‘Fire and death and the terror of {Orcs}[war]; but {Tinwelint}[Thingol] is slain.’ §45 & §46a (§35) Then did both Beren and Tinuviel weep bitter tears; nor did the full tale{ of Huan} dry their eyes. When then it was ... §46b (§36) RD-FP-05 Now not even Beren knew the tale of those{ myriad} folk that followed his horn in the woods of{ Hisilome}[Ossiriand], and befor ever the moon was high above the hills the {host}[company] assembled in the glade of his abiding {was very}[seemed him] great[ enough], yet were they lightly armed and the most bore only knives and bows. ‘Yet,’ said Beren, ‘speed is that which now we need the most’; and certain Elves at his bidding fared like deer before him, seeking news of the march of the Dwarves{ and Indrafangs}, but at dawn he followed at the head of the green Elves, and Tinúviel abode in the glade and wept unto herself for the death of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and {Gwendelin also she mourned as dead}[the departure of Melian]. §46c (§37) Now is to tell that the laden host of the Dwarves fared from the place of their ransacking, and Naugladur was at their head. RD-FP-06 {, and beside him Ufedhin and Bodruith; … here we take out again the rest of these and the next 3 paragraphs, until: … ; yet few have pitied him. Now tells the tale that}And he fell in with the rangers of Beren's folk, and these gaining RD-FP-07 { from him} sure knowledge of all the host and array of Naugladur and the ways he purposed to follow, they sped back like wind among the trees unto their lord;{ but Ufedhin revealed not to them who he was, feigning to be an Elf of Artanor escaped from bondage in their host. Now therefore they entreated him well, and he was sent back to Beren that their captain might ............ his words, and albeit Beren marvelled at his [?cowardly]......’ and downward glance it seemed to him that he brought safe word,} and he set a trap for Naugladur. RD-FP-08 { No longer did he march hotly on the trail of the Dwarves, but knowing} Knowing that they would essay the passage of the river {Aros}[Gelion] at a certain time he turned aside, faring swiftly with his light-footed Elves by straighter paths that he might reach Sarn{a}[-A]throd the Stony Ford before them. Now the {Aros}[Gelion] is a fierce stream RD-FP-09 { - and is it not that very water that more near its spring runs swiftly past the aged doors of the Rodothlim's caves and the dark lairs of Glorund' -} and in those lower regions by no means can be crossed by a great host of laden men save at this ford, nor is it overeasy here. Never would Naugladur have taken that way had he knowledge of Beren - yet blinded by the spell and the dazzling gold he feared nought either within or without his host, and he was in haste to reach Nogrod and its dark caverns{, for the Dwarves list not long to abide in the bright light of day}. §46d (§38) Now came all that host to the banks of {Aros}[Gelion], ... §46e (§39) Morn was it when they reached the hither bank ... §46f (§40) Suddenly is all that place filled with the sound of elfin horns, and one {...}[brayed] with a clearer blast above ... §47 (§41) Now were the warriors on the far bank {[? }wrapped{]} in battle and rallying sought to come at their foes, but these fled nimbly before them, while {[?}others{]} poured still the hail of arrows upon them, and thus got the Eldar few hurts and the Dwarf-folk fell dead unceasingly. Now was that great fight of the Stony Ford{ ......} nigh to Naugladur, for even ... their white beards torn by the wind, filled them with mirth. RD-FP-10 <Sil77 {but}[But] some escaping from the ambush held together, and fled eastwards towards the mountains. And as they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence, it is said, came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes.> §48 (§42) But now stood Naugladur and few were about him, and RD-FP-11 { he remembered the words of Gwendelin, for} behold, Beren came towards him and he cast aside his bow, and drew a bright sword; and Beren was of great stature{ among the Eldar}, albeit not of the girth and breadth of Naugladur of the Dwarves. §49 (§43) Then said Beren: ‘Ward thy life an thou canst, O crook-legged murderer, else will I take it,’ and Naugladur bid him even the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the necklace ... and many of his shrewdest blows did little harm to Naugladur by reason of the {[?}skill{]} and magic of his dwarfen mail; ... ‘I will slay this {Elf}[Men], and his folk will flee in fear before me,’ ... But the body of Naugladur was cast into the {Aros}[Ascar]. §51a (§45) Then did he unloose the necklace, and he gazed in wonder at it and beheld the Silmaril, even the jewel he won from Angband and gained undying glory by his deed; and he said: ‘Never have mine eyes beheld thee O Lamp of {Faery}[Féanor] burn one half so fair as now thou dost, set in gold and gems and the magic of the Dwarves’; and that necklace he caused to be washed of its stains, and he cast it not away, knowing nought of its power, but bore it with him back into the woods of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand]. But RD-FP-12 <Sil77 the treasure of Doriath was drowned in the River Ascar, and from that time the river was named anew, Rathlóriel, the Goldenbed.> §51b (§46) But the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on for ever above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung], and so do still, for ... §51c (§47) But in the vales of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand] was there ... remembering the first days of their love and those days of travail in the wild{.}, RD-FP-13 <QS30 and it is said and sung that Lúthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel on her white breast was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been seen outside the realms of Valinor, and that for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Gods, and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.>{ Now is it to be said that Beren sent for Ufedhin and … here we take out again 3 paragraphs and the first part of the 4th, until: … and came never again into the tales of the dwellers of Earth; but}But upon Beren and Tinúviel fell swiftly that doom of mortality that Mandos had spoken when he sped them from his halls - and in this perhaps did the curse of Mîm have [{?} potency] in that it came more soon upon them; RD-FP-14 { nor this time did those twain fare the road together, but when yet was the child of those twain, Dior’ the Fair, a little one, did Tinuviel slowly fade, even as the Elves of later days have done throughout the world, and she vanished in the woods, and none have seen her dancing ever there again. But Beren searched all the lands of Hithlum and of Artanor ranging after her; and never has any of the Elves had more loneliness than his, or ever he too faded from life,} and Dior {his}their son was left ruler of the brown Elves and the green, and Lord of the Nauglafring. RD-FP-15 { Mayhap what all Elves say is true, that those twain hunt now in the forest of Orome in Valinor, and Tinuviel dances on the green swards of Nessa and of Vana daughters of the Gods for ever more; yet} Yet great was the grief of the Elves when the Guilwarthon went from among them, and being leaderless and lessened of magic their numbers minished; and many fared away <editorial addition with Dior.>{to Gondolin, the rumour of whose growing power and glory ran in secret whispers among all the Elves.} §52 (§48) RD-FP-16 <QS30 Thereafter was Dior Thingol's heir, child of Beren and Lúthien, king in the woods, most fair of all the children of the world, for his race was threefold: of the fairest and goodliest of Men, and of the Elves, and of the spirits divine of Valinor; yet it shielded him not from the fate of the oath of the sons of Féanor. For Dior went back to Doriath and for a time a part of its ancient glory was raised anew, though Melian no longer dwelt in that place, {and}because she had departed to the land of the {Gods}[Valar] beyond the western sea, to muse on her sorrows in the gardens whence she came.> But still{Still} did Dior RD-FP-17 { when come to manhood} rule a numerous folk, and he loved the woods even as Beren had done; and songs name him mostly Ausir the Wealthy ... § 53 /moved up/ § 54 /taken out/ § 55 /taken out/ §56a (§49) RD-FP-18 {Now fare the long days of Elfinesse unto that time when Tuor dwelt in Gondolin; and children then had Dior the Elf,' Auredhir and Elwing, and Auredhir was most like to his forefather Beren, and all loved him, yet none so dearly as did Dior; but Elwing the fairy have all poesies named as beautiful as Tinuviel if that indeed may be, yet hard is it to say seeing the great loveliness of the elfin folk of yore. Now those were days of happiness in the vales of Hithlum, for there was peace with Melko and the Dwarves who had but one thought as they plotted against Gondolin, and Angband was full of labour; yet}Yet is it to tell that bitterness entered into the hearts of the{ seven} sons of Féanor, remembering their oath. Now {Maidros}[Maedhros], whom {Melko}[Morgoth] maimed, was their leader; and he called to his brethren Maglor{ and Dinithel,} and to {Damrod}[Amrod], and to Celegorm, to {Cranthor}[Cranthir] and to Curufin the Crafty, and he said to them ... §56b (§50) Thus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him ... §57 & §58a (§51) Then went Curufin unto his brethren, and because of their unbreakable oath and of their [{?} thirst] for that Silmaril (nor indeed was the spell of Mîm and of the dragon wanting) they planned war upon Dior - and the Eldar cry shame upon them for that deed, the first premeditated war of elfin folk upon elfin folk, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalie for their sufferings. Little good came thereby to them; for they fell unawares upon Dior, and Dior RD-FP-19 { and Auredhir were}[was] slain, <Sil77 and Nimloth his wife, and the cruel servants of Celegorm seized his young sons and left them to starve in the forest. Of this Maedhros<editorial addition later> indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing, and of the fate of Eluréd and Elurín no tale tells.> {yet}Yet behold, Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth a {Gnome}[Noldor], took her unwilling in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, and they bore with them the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], so that the sons of Féanor saw it not; but a host of Dior's folk, coming with all speed yet late unto the fray, fell suddenly on their rear, and there was a great battle, and {Maglor}[Curufin] was slain with swords,{ and Mai.... died of wounds in the wild}, and Celegorm was pierced with a hundred arrows, and {Cranthor}[Cranthir] beside him. Yet in the end were the sons of Feanor masters of the field of slain, and the {brown}[grey] Elves and the green were scattered over all the lands unhappy, for they would not hearken to {Maidros}[Maedhros] the maimed, nor to {Curufin}[Maglor] and {Damrod}[Amrod] who had slain their lord; RD-FP-20 {and it is said that even on the day of that battle of the Elves Melko sought against Gondolin, and the fortunes of the Elves came to their uttermost waning.}<Sil77 and Doriath was destroyed and never rose again.> §58b (§52) Now was naught left of the seed of Beren Ermabwed son of {Egnor}[Barahir] save Elwing the Lovely, and she wandered in the woods, and of the {brown}[grey] Elves and the green a few gathered to her, and they departed for ever from the glades of {Hithlum}[Doriath] and got them to the south towards Sirion's deep waters, and the pleasant lands. And thus did all the fates of the fairies weave then to one strand, and that strand is the great tale of Earendel. RD-FP-21 {; and to that tale's true beginning are we now come.' Then said Ailios: 'And methinks that is tale enow for this time of telling.'} §59 /moved up/ The comments will followe soon. Respectfully Findegil Edited to change format. Last edited by Findegil; 07-26-2004 at 04:25 AM. |
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#2 | |
Tyrannus Incorporalis
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: the North
Posts: 833
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Great job, Findegil. Aside from the obvious omissions of dated place and person names, the integration of other works into the flow of the passage was stupendous. I have only one extremely miniscule piece of input, probably not even worth noting.
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Just a rather mundane observation, great work all in all!
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...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence. |
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#3 |
King's Writer
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Thanks for the comment Lord of A.. If my Version will be the one we will work from, I will take up your suggestion.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#4 | ||
King's Writer
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Changing the format of my version of the Fall of Doriath, I found out that I never did the comments and comparision for this final part that I had promised. I soon found also that this is a hard work because Maedhros version differ very much from my own. But well, if we ever will get to start with this chapter we will nontheless nedd it. So he we go:
§43a: Maedhros took not the first part of my §. He only used the Sil77 part that builded the second part in my §. But I thougt the discription of the way the Dwarves were to take fited nicely in this place. §43b: Meadhors left that geographical information out again. §44: Maedhros used Melian as the messenger. His § reads: Quote:
§45 & §46: Maedhros used here part of the Sil77, his § reads: Quote:
§47: Maedhros used this § completly from Sil77 while I did only use the introduction of the Ents following Letter no.247 §48- §50: Here We go completly conform. §51: Maedhros used only what I have called §51a without the addition from Sil77 and my addition from the Sil77 to §51c. Thus he did not tell the renaming of the Acar nor used he the fuller account of the return of Beren. §52: Maedhros took that § from the Sil77. §53: Here Maedhros used the passage from the Tale about the Hoard of Glaurung lying in the River and being protected by a flood when some one seeked for it. §54 &§55: Here again Maedhros used Sil77 to recount the death of Beren and Lúthien. But thought it better to use the older acount were they did dy during Diors time in Ossiriand. §56 - §59: Maedhros used here the version of the second kinslaying of the Sil77 but I found it better to use the old Tale and updat it were necessary. When ever we come to work on this chapter, I think we should start with a discussion which version we should use as a first basis of further development. But that has to wait until we have done the rest of work at hand. Respectfully Findegil |
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#5 |
The Kinslayer
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Findegil, I had been hard at work with my version of the Ruin of Doriath. What I posted in this forum was only my first draft, I have taken a lot of your suggestions into account and there are somethings with your version that I didn't use eg. (attitude of the dwarves asking for some female elves as a reward).
Since we seem to have come to a cul-de-sac in our Eärendil chapter, I was wondering if you would be interested in reviewing my version (4th draft) so that we can come to a compromise and have a base text (which would be IMO very advanced because it would have both of our inputs) to begin the work on the Ruin of Doriath chapter. Can I send it to you be email? I do not want to post it yet here because I think it will only bring more confusion.
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#6 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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I can clearly read and comment on your version, if you like.
Send it to: Ralf.Volles@gmx.de It could take some time before I will start reading since I am reading Antoines last FoG Version, which is a hard task. Respectfully Findegil |
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#7 |
The Kinslayer
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I have send you my draft of my version. As I have said before, it takes into account a lot of your input especially in the beginning, but as we move towards the middle of the story our views differ a lot.
I hope that we can reach a middle ground in it so that the result can be used as the base of that discussion.
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#8 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Since I hav as jet only read the first page of the draft I will not comment on it in generall. But it seems clear that the finding of the middleground as a basis for the gorupworking is what we have to do.
More on this when I have read it through and made a komparision with my owne ideas expressed in my prolonged Version. Respectfully Findegil |
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#9 | |
King's Writer
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This is the first draft of an expansion of the storyline-version. Our basis text is: The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter III: The Quenta Noldorinwa (Q30).
We have three groups of changes: RD-zz: General changes given and discussed in the thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. These changes are taken up here, but they are not indicated by "editorial markers" RD-SL-zz: Changes done to make the storyline fit our understanding developed in the Thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. In that thread I made the mistake to mark them with FD-SL-zz. But the numbers are identical. My apologise if that change does produce a mass now. Some numbers are missing, but that is normal since some of the points of the storyline-discussion did not produce any change in the text. RD-EX-zz For expansions taken from some other source to make the story more detailed. This also includes some changes made in the expansion, which I marked for easier reference. At the beginning we have to create a transition from The Wanderingas of Húrin (WH). Over all the basis text will show trough not to much I think. But we will use it as a leading guideline and any part that is exchanged for some other text should be shown. As before, I start with §266 of WH, which is the last of that text. I have tried to stick to the §-numbering done by Maédhros for his first draft, so that a comparison between that draft #1, my own earlier Version and the current text will be easier. In addition I have numbered the § anew in brackets starting with §267 in continuation of WH and starting over again when we come to the purposed chapter break. If a § of the basic-text is deleted completely it is not numbered. As it has some value as a double-check during my work I will give here in addition to the edited version a clean text version. Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned) Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks { } = text that should be deleted [ ] = normalised text <source > = additions with source information example = text inserted for grammatical reason / / = outline expansion Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. But the source information is repeated before each §. But some times the new § was taken as an new add and handled accordingly. Here after is given the Version for the public forum. I have ripped it of some of the textual content in many § by inerting dots instead. These dots conceal only General changes (RD-zz), all other changes are given so that they can (hopefuly) be understood. Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#10 | |||||||||
The Kinslayer
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There are several instances in which you used Duin Dear instead of Duin Daer.
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#11 | ||||
King's Writer
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Dear -> Daer: Oops, seemed an systymatical typo of mine. Corrected for the next version.
§51d laughed -> answered: But it was equally disrespectfull for Beren to laughed at his mother in law in TN than it is in our version. So why should we change it? Okay, Melain is now a bit more of a respected figure through out, but that does not change the disrespectfullnis of Beren in this scene so much for me. I see it more like a mark of the cruse of the Nauglamír (and the Silamril) that he begins to value his own thoughts above that of Melian. §56b If "Dior waxed wroth" does not fit together with <TY [Thus he returned] {Dior returns} no answer /to their claim./> we have to remove the fisrt phrase since the second is later. The § was a kind of an experiment, if "Dior waxed wroth" and the answer "if you like to have a Silmaril go to Angband" would fit with the "no answer of TY. But it seemed it will not fit and thus we should go back to: Quote:
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If we want scip the names I would suggest to takeQ30 (sorry, I made a mistake with the source info there) and name them only faithful servants: Quote:
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Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 12-08-2004 at 10:00 AM. |
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#12 | |||
The Kinslayer
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#13 |
King's Writer
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§58b Now you did missunderstand me. If "Dior waxed worth" does verbid us to interpret the rest of the conversion in a way that Dior could let the claim of the Feanorians unanswered, then we cannot use it as an expansion of our basic text. That is a fact, since the bsic text states, based on TY, that Dior returned no answer.
§51d Why does it diminishe the charachter of Beren when he laughs in such a situation? Respectfully Findegil |
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#14 | ||||
King's Writer
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Following the fact that Melian did leave Menegroth before the attack of the Dwarves she did no longer talk to Naugladur and thus he can clearly not remeber any words of her. Thus we have to change §48 to:
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Conclusion: The map does not over an clear explaination for the problem at hand, but it does provide use with some freedom of interpretation, since not all features are drawn. That Ascar was not crossable near to its confluence is witnessed by the tale of the People of Haleth and there stand against the orcs. They withdrawn into the angle between Gelion and Ascar and it is clear that both rivers were an effective protection. Considering the passage from TY we need a ford over Ascar. If the mountian pass did follow the river (as is likely for such roads) it is possible to supposed that it did so on the south bank. If the road did bend south at the point were the dots end, it would have crossed the river a bit further from its source. After that long winding discussion I will know give an alternative text for some § that is soppossed to follow TY by placing the fight at the Ford over Ascar. Since the names discussed earlier were clearly meant to be the ford over Gelion [Duin Daer] I have not taken them for the Ford of Ascar. Thus the Ford of the ambush is unnamed. Quote:
Findegil |
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#15 | ||||||||||||||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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I'm not sure when I'll get time to finish looking over this section, so I'll post the comments on what I've reviewed so far.
§43a (§27) Quote:
I wonder if we should replace "River Gelion" with "Duin Daer" rather than with "River Duin Daer" - "Duin" means "River", and seems to be redundant. RD-EX-66 Quote:
In any case, I don't understand the deletion of "yet". RD-EX-67 Elfin > Elven §43b (§28) Quote:
RD-EX-68 I don't see why we need to use this from the '77 if we immediately afterward have Melian bring them the news. RD-EX-70 The changes here are fairly liberal but I think they work. One problem is: Quote:
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RD-EX-74 I would delete the historical present here as well. §46f (§35) Quote:
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#16 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Dear > Daer: That systematic typo again. I will try better for the next version.
River Gelion -> Duin Daer: Agreed. I did not hink about it and did just replace Gelion by Duin Daer, but it is beter to skip River in fornt of Duin. RD-EX-66: What Q30 has to ofer we have already used. The problem is that the abode of Beren and Lúthien is only given in "The Problem of Ros". And I think Christopher Tolkien based this passage on the info given there. The alternativ for this passage is simply not to give the info it provides (as fare as I can see). Deletion of "yet": I understood it as a kind of repeating, since we had already mention that Beren and Lúthien were "in that time of respite which Lúthien had won" in the sentence before. But that is a weak argument and if you think the yet should not be deleted we will take in back in. RD-EX-68: Okay, I can see your point. As it is we have no other source for this bit. So it must go. RD-EX-70: In view of TN, Note 13 I thought that it might even have be the orginal reading of the text. I agree that the sentence would read better with your suggestions. But the dwarves are normaly no terror. (If we would have used the info of the Dwarve-host crossing Athrad Daer, I would have accepted "the terror of the dwarves". ![]() Quote:
Okay, it seems my interpretation of the edited sentence was to much forced if it come across to you in such a way. Your emendations lock good. we should take them. All changes not mention I agree with and willtake them up for the next version if nobody speaks up against them. Some of the changes will come up again in the alternative § given in posts in this thread, but if we will take these alternatives, I will try to work the changes into them. Respectfully Findegil |
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#17 | ||||
The Kinslayer
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#18 |
King's Writer
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RD-EX-66:
What was driven from the Problem of Ros is the reference to Dior's dwelling. It is in §6 of that text, page 369. Lock especialy in note 9 to that text. Respectfully Findegil |
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#19 | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Late Istar
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RD-EX-66
Findegil wrote: Quote:
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I would go with Maedhros's suggestion. The continuation of my comments: RD-EX-75 I don't think I understand the change of "as they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed" to "as the Dwarves entered the woods on the further bank". RD-EX-76 Quote:
RD-EX-78 I'm sorry to say I think this change goes too far. We don't know that the bow Beren had here was the Bow of Bregor, nor that it was at this point that he gave it to Dior. We simply can't state it, I'm afraid. §49 (§38) Quote:
§50 (§39) Quote:
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I still need to review the arguments relating to RD-SL-27 before I have anything to say about that. |
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#20 | ||||||
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RD-EX-66:
I we lock for the source of the home of Beren and Lúthien on Tal Galen. The suggestion about the original text is good. RD-EX-70: Agreed. RD-EX-75: Since I wanted the Ents involved in the fight nearer to the ford, to make the reduced numbers of Greenelves more possible and so to follow the Letter more closly than Christopher Tolkien had done. Thus I toke in stead of the wood benath Mount Dolmed the woded further shore of the river which is mention before. RD-EX-76: Agreed, we will hold the slain chiefes as I did in my alternate version. RD-EX-78: Well, yes it is fare fetched. But on the other hand, way shouldn't he use that bow? But for the sake of safty we will scip that change. §49 "the elfin laughter": The statment goes back to a stage when the fight on the further shore was discribed as in TN. There the flying Dwarves were discribed in detail. And it was especialy stated that he lock of the flying Dwarves filled the Elves with mirth. Do we consider to hold that motiv, or are we just going not to skip the pure statment that the elves laughed. And if the later isn't that a slight change of meaning? For the former I would suggest to add the description: Quote:
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Maedhros suggested "elfin gladness" -> "elvish gladness", at least I wouldn't kapitalise "Elven" if that is what we take in here. §51f: Yes we have mentioned the renaming in the version were the Elves drown the treassure activley (fight at the Ford over Duin Daer), but not so in the alternate version (fight at a Ford over Ascar). If we take the first version i would suggest: Quote:
RD-EX-84: Agreed. Elwing is to young to wear the Nauglamir. But I would rather change the sentence to make it refer to Dior, which would agree to the earlier statment: Quote:
That change was discussed between me an Maedhros. In view of his reading of the passage, I think we must skip the complete last part (sad as it is): Quote:
RD-SL-32.5: Agreed. "first premeditated war": Well, I did ever understand it with the emphasis on "premeditated", which made that kinslaying much worth than the first. RD-SL-33, RD-EX-89: I also like the change from comma to semicolon more than the second option. RD-EX-92: The later was added because the fight was not yet over, though I thought he would not search for the brethern while the weapons stil spoke. But the add was maybe in the wrong place. This would be better:[quote]§57 & §58a (§339) ... RD-EX-92 <Sil77 Of this Maedhros indeed repented, and sought later for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing.>RD-EX-93 <TY (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir[iand].)> §58c: Thus you think we should make that sentence read thus: Quote:
I also agree on "faries"-> "Elves" Locking forward for your comments on RD-SL-27. Respectfully Findegil |
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#21 | ||
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RD-EX-66:
Tol-Galen is only twice mentioned in the HoME Series, and all these phrases are in the Quenta Silmarillion in HoME V. The first is a footnote to chapter 9: Of Beleriand and its Realms. In the discription of Ossiriand the footnote reffers to the name Adurant. It was later inserted and reads: Quote:
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Respectfully Findegil |
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#22 | |||
Late Istar
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RD-EX-66
Quote:
RD-EX-75 Okay, this change seems to make sense now. Still, I would retain "they" instead of replacing it with "the Dwarves". RD-EX-78 I agree, nothing necessitates that he was not using the Bow of Bregor at this point. But as you say it is far-fetched. What we would need is not the absence of evidence to the contrary but rather the presence of evidence for his use of the Bow of Bregor, which we don't have. So we must skip it. §49 Well, I'm not sure whether to retain the Elven laughter or not. A case could be made that it's out of keeping with the later character of the Elves. §51e: Quote:
RD-EX-85 Sorry, I had neglected to reread the discussion that had already taken place between you and Maedhros. You propose: Quote:
RD-EX-79 I still don't see the need for "later". Maedhros does nothing more in the fight; and in any case, we don't specify when he makes his search. RD-SL-27 This turns out to be a tricky issue. I think you are right that we should consider the second Silmarillion map here. But I'm afraid I must disagree with you regarding its interpretation. I think any ambiguity in the map was quite unintentional - there is no suggestion that the road crosses the Ascar. If it did, it would have to be in the foothills of the mountains and quite close to the sources of Ascar - and this is quite out of keeping with any accounts of the battle. Moreover, it seems very unlikely that Tolkien would not draw the ford of Ascar on the map if such a ford not only existed but was also the site of this important battle. So I would say that the second Silmarillion map cannot be considered to coincide with the TY version. What this leaves us with is the Lost Tales which put the battle at the ford of Aros (in a vague and unclear geography), the Sketch and the Quenta which put the battle at the stony ford over Gelion, and finally the second Silmarillion map and TY which are at variance, one putting the battle at the Fords of Ascar and the other suggesting that no such ford existed. If either TY or the second Silmarillion map were clearly later than the other, then matters would be more clear. But they are both, as far as I can tell, from about 1951. We therefore have three possible explanations: 1. "Ascar" in TY is a mistake for "Gelion". This seems plausible at least, since despite the fact that the ford is over Gelion, the river Ascar is very closely associated with the story due to the casting of the gold into it and its renaming. 2. As unlikely as it seems, Tolkien intended the Ford of Ascar to be in the mountains, very close to the source of the river, and yet did not indicate this on the map. 3. Tolkien changed the story in between the second Silmarillion map and TY. In this case of course we cannot know which was the final conception without determining which of these texts came first. In the absence of any further evidence concerning dates of composition, option 3 cannot enter into our consideration. That leaves us to decide between 1 and 2. To me, 1 seems far more likely - so I suppose in the end I am for keeping the battle at the ford over Duin Daer. |
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#23 | |
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RD-EX-66: Okay, I can live with that. In that case I think we should take than even more of Ros into consideration. Do you would agree to this version of the §?
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RD-EX-78: Done. §49: I think the elfish laughter is out of place, but I understand your argument that we have no clear evidence against it. I would like to have Maedhros input to this. §51e: So, are we to take "elven gladness" or "elvish gladness"? RD-EX-85: Agreed. the addition of "clear" is know obsolet, and if you find "to their claim" not necessary, we will skip it. RD-EX-79: Okay so we will skip the "later". RD-SL-27: Isn't the development in TY in itself an efidence for a change in the story? I felt that it was so. In any case, the map is earlier, and was only reworked about 1951. Thus a missing incooperation of a changed placment of a battle-place is no hard fact. Eitherway, to become more sure of the timing of making of both sources is in order. I will research what can be learned about that. Respectfully Findegil |
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#24 | |
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RD-SL-27:
What I found is not to much but here we go: The map itself was old. But the Road was put in later. All changes made to the map are recorded, but they are in no way dated (which seems in many instances nearly impossible to do anyway). The only slight evidence that I could find is the name "Duin Dhaer" as a replacment of "Gelion" and "Rathmalad" for "Rathloriel". These changes were at least made in the same period as the similar changes in the TY Version D (Rathloriel -> Rathmallen). But that does only tell us that the map was still used at that time. It does not provide us with any evidence that the Dwarf-road shown represented Tolkien view at that time or that it was drawn in at that time. But from what can be seen in the Chapter "Maeglin" of HoME XI he still found the representation of the Dwarf-Road east of Gelion fitting, since he didn't change it when he put the way of Eöl from Nogord to Nan Elmoth and beyond in a copy of the map. The “Maeglin” story was worked at very lat in Tolkien’s live about 1970. We are not told if the line of red dots that represented the way of Eöl started in Nogrod, it is just said that, “this red dotted line continues straight on across square G13 to Sarn Athrad, and then coincides with the Dwarf-Road up into the mountains, already present in the primary map.” Christopher Tolkien does also not give as an good dating for TY D. He suggested that it was may be contemporary with JRR Tolkiens work on the ‘Turin-Saga’ which would be slightly later then the rest of the TY which Aiwendil dated correctly in 1951-2. But the change of the battle-place to a ford of Ascar was represented already in TY C. From TY B and TY A I got the impression that even their the Ford was over Ascar, because the battle is “at Rath-loriel”. Thus we are still no further in our decision. But the map does provide us with a good reason for Tolkiens change: The distance between the Ford over Gelion and the river Ascar is about 4.75 miles or 7.6 kilometres. That would be a walk of about 1.5 hours on a road, but to make that cross country laden with a heavy burden would take considerably longer. If Beren had (as we assume) only a small number of Greenelves we must ask our self how he transported the Hoard to the river Ascar to drown it. Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
But I don’t see that this would contradict the accounts of the Battle. The only account that is detailed enough to be in anyway contradicted is TN. But even in that case I don’t see a heavy contradiction. The Pass that the road approached is described as “high pass”. Thus the Ascar could be a river spring-fed by a glacier. Anyway it could be a fast and deep stream already near to its source and a heavy obstacle for any crossing in all times of the year. A Ford build from shingle-isles and with a high and step bank on the one side does not strike me as impossible for a short river (not more then 75 miles) in the mountains that swelled Gelion in a way that it was uncross able south of the confluence. So I am still for your option 2 Respectfully Findegil |
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#25 |
Late Istar
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RD-EX-66
I wonder how much of Ros we are justified in putting in here. The sudden etymological discussion certainly interrupts the narrative and sounds out of place. But are we to consider this a problem? I suppose I could go with your suggestion. RD-SL-72 It still seems to me very plausible that "Ascar" was a mere slip of the pen. Such a change would, I still feel, have necessitated some changes to the geography. I really doubt that the the ford would be as close to Nogrod as the map suggests it would need to be. But of course such a change in geography is quite possible. If Ascar turned northeastward a little more quickly, or if Nogrod were just slightly further south, the river might need to be forded well before the mountains. So I am in doubt. Maedhros, what do you think? |
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#26 |
King's Writer
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As it seems their are only 3 points left unresolved in the above discussion:
§49 "the elfin laughter": Aiwendil hasitatingly supported the inclusion of the laughing elves; and I equily hasitating support its execlusion. §51d laughed -> answered: Maedhros found it diminishing to the charchter of Beren to laugh at Melian. But I disagree to that, or at least I can not see why we should change it. (If we will in the end execlued both laughings, it seems we will get a very serious tale. ![]() RD-SL-27: Aiwendil feels more save with the fight at the Ford over {Gelion}[Duin Daer] and a transportation of the Hoard; and I support the fight at the Ford over Ascar that isn't mentioned any where else than in TY. To this complex I like to put even a further streching: If the Ford over Ascar is postulated for the solution of this complex, than an argument could be made that the name of Sarn Athrad, the Stony Ford, was transfered to that Ford and that therefore the Ford over {Gelion}[Duin Daer] recieved the new name Athrad Daer. (Possible since the name was developed later while working on the Maeglin story.) One further point need to be discussed: Rathloriel was changed on the map to Rathmalad and in TY to Rathmallen. Should we adopt one of these changes? And if so which one? Also if we change the name, is then the translation Golden-Bed still valid? So do we skip it or can we make an updated one? Since Rathmalad is only hastily penciled and not entirly clear, I would go with Rathmallen which is at least fairly readable and thus in my view more reliable. But I have no clou how this would translat into english. Respectfully Findegil |
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#27 |
The Kinslayer
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Findegil and Aiwendil:
You may have noticed that I have not posted much in the last few weeks, unfortunately this is due because my grandmother has been very ill and alas she has died yesterday. If you will give me sometime to do somethings that I need to arrange, hopefully I can give my opinions shortly.
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#28 |
Late Istar
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I'm very sorry to hear about your loss, Maedhros. You have my sincere sympathy. Please take all the time you need - don't feel that this project is yet another pressure to deal with.
Findegil: About Rathmalad/Rathmallen. I think that at least this point is easy enough to deal with; the translation should be unchanged. the LOR- stem, I believe, refers to "golden" as a colour of light (as in "Laurelin"). The MAL- stem refers to "golden" meaning "of or relating to the metal gold". I'm a little unsure whether Rathmalad or Rathmallen would be preferrable to adopt, but you make a good case for Rathmallen. |
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#29 | |||
The Kinslayer
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Thanks Aiwendil.
Now regarding the RD-SL-27 issue: Let me quote the following: From The Shaping of Middle-Earth: The Quenta Quote:
I find it very interesting the fact that JRRT would only change his narrative in the way that at first both of these events ocurred in the same river, and then the fight occurred in one and the drowning in the other. My personal opinion is that JRRT intended to have both things occurred in the same river, but that he forgot to make the second change. CT has another opinion in his Commentary. In the Tale of Years it is said that the battle took place across the River Ascar as in the Original version of chapter 14 of the Quenta. I think that it is a slip in the part of JRRT and that he meant rather Gelion. It is funny but my personal preference is to have the fight as Findegil points out (why take that whole treasure to drown in another river?) but in the end I have to side with CT that JRRT meant that the fight took place in Gelion and the drowning took place in Ascar. Quote:
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Aiwendil, what do you think?
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#30 |
King's Writer
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First let me express my sincere condolences to you, Maédhros.
RD-SL-27: In Q30 Tolkien named the Great River of East-Beleriand (latest name Duin Daer) at first Ascar. Then when he found that the first tributary of that river should have that name he changed the name to Flend and later to Gelion. With the geography that underlaies Q30 I would not have any problem. The Ford was directly south of the confluence of Flend [Duin Daer] and Ascar. Thus a hoard drowned at that ford would have been drowned figuratively in both rivers. Such a ford as Sarn Athrad in the position of Q30 would have been builded out of the load of stones carried by Ascar (that were droped when with the confluence the current became less strong). That would have provided a good reason to rename the river Ascar to Rathlorion -> Rathloriel -> Rathmallen, since the implication of the gold in the ford would hve been that Ascar did carry that gold and laied it down at the confluence. But the geography changed. The Ford over Duin Daer is now clearly a few miles north of the confluence. If the Battle is still at that Ford and the hoard is to be drowned in Ascar the elves must activly transport it. In TY we do not have a clear picture of the geography involved. But it can be seen clearly that JRR Tolkien changed the story. The "slip of the pen" argument does not work for me. In no Versions of TY the River Gelion is even mentioned and any way Gelion was never the renamed River. That was in fact the tributary river ever since the fight was moved away from Aros. I think that JRR Tolkien changed the fight to be at a Ford over Ascar exactly because he wanted to aviod that transport and any activity of the Elves with the hoard. In my view we could only hold the fight at the ford over Duin Daer when we label the changed that occoured in TY as "unworkable outline", but it does not seem to be, for me at least. §49 "the elfin laughter": Okay, if you both feel that eves laughin at the flying dwarves is fine we will take them in from both occurences. §51d laughed -> answered: Are you suggesting that for an Elf it would not have been disrespectfull to laugh at Melians warning? That only would be true for me if I would lock at Elves like the group that welcomed Gandalf, Bilbo and Thorin & Co. in Rivendell in the Hobbit. But even then, Beren talks here with his mother in law and she is giving him advise in a grave matter concerning his beloved. And equally if he is an Elf or an Adan Melian is fare above him in wisdom, in rank and in expirence. Thus it was disrespectfull anyway. And we have no hint that JRR Tolkien planed to change it. On the conteray the outcome of the conversation never changed: Beren kept the Nauglamír against Melians advice. Rathloriel -> Rathmalad or Rathmallen: Rathmallen, the Golden Bed, it will become in the next version of the text. Respectfully Findegil |
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#31 | |||
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RD-SL-27
The second Silmarillion map does suggest that the ford is a few miles north of the confluence. However, as Findegil noted: Quote:
So I do not think that there is necessarily a problem with the ford being over Duin Daer and the gold ending up in Ascar - first of all because the map may exaggerate the short distance between the Ascar and the road, and second because even if the distance as drawn on the map is taken to be several miles, it's possible that the map doesn't represent Tolkien's final intention. Indeed, if Tolkien did see a problem with the gold being transported from the ford to Ascar, by far the easier solution would have been simply to bring the ford closer to the confluence. It seems to me, then, much more natural to suppose that the ford remained over Duin Daer and that "Ascar" in TY was a slip. But I admit that this depends on two suppositions: 1. that the ford is closer to the confluence than the map indicates; 2. that "ford of Ascar" was a mistake. I am still not happy with either alternative, then. The relevant principle here is: Quote:
So my dilemma is that I am inclined to think that the ford remained over Duin Daer, but that I am also inclined to view our principles as supporting the change to Ascar. I definitely need to consider this further. Quote:
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#32 | |
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First some remarks on the later geography: I do not think that the drawing of the road is so much in error that the Ford over Duin Daer would be directly north the confluence. As the reason for that I can only put forward the story of the Folk of Haleth. But I must admiss that only a small distance is needed to provide enough space for a stockard. On the other hand, if we take the map in such a liberal way than a Ford over Ascar in the foothills of the mountians is even more possible.
Let me add a further remark on the changed geography: In the Maeglin chapter we get the follwing passage: Quote:
For me, this does also cast some doubt on the discription of the Ford in TN. But I have not enough knowledge about this part of hydro-geography to come up with an argument for my doubts. Now to the slip of the pen: I will try to add some arguments against that. In my last post I did make my reasons rejecting that idea not very clear. AB2 makes not clear over which river the Ford Sarn Athrad lead, but the gold is cast into the river Ascar which than renamed Rathloriel. The temporary scripts make clear that Sarn Athrad was over Gelion and the Elves activley cast the gold in the river Ascar. All 4 version of TY are clearly reformulated. In A the only name given is the new name for the river Rathloriel, but it is at this river were the battle ocourse. In TY B the ford is named Sarn Athrad and led over Rathloriel. In C and in D the Ford is over Ascar and the Dwarves cast the gold them self into that river and that river is renamed to Rathloriel. I would agree to a possible slip of the pen in the very short version TY A, but if that is the case then the following versions worked on these failure (if a failure it was) in a kind development that I can not lock at as unconsicous. Thus if a slip of the pen it was in A, it is no longer in TY C and D at least. That is what I can put forward in the Moment. It might be good if you would give your reason for suspecting that all the versions of TY were a case of repeated slip of the pen. Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 01-31-2005 at 04:48 AM. Reason: Just a typo. |
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#33 |
The Kinslayer
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I will try and make my point again.
First, we have in the Quenta that for a brief time, the place where the battle took place and where the treasure was drowned was the same River. (Ascar) Then, there is a change in which the battle took place in the ford over the River Gelion but it was drowned in the River Ascar. Now in the Tale of Years, as Findegil has posted, in version B,C and D the battle takes place in the fords over the River Ascar, but the ones who slay the dwarves are not Beren and Co. but rather Celegorm and Curufin. Now, if we are going to use the Tale of Years alternative that the fight was over the ford of the River Ascar, we should take also the fact that it was Celegorm and Curufin who were involved in the fight and not Beren and Co. Can we justify using half a sentence from there but not the other part? Doesn't that make dubious that alteration?
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#34 | ||
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I think I have stumbled upon a further complication.
TY B has the curious: Quote:
In C and D the battle is at "the fords of Ascar". It is not made clear whether the ford described is Sarn-athrad or not. But by the late work on "Maeglin", Sarn Athrad (which there becomes Harathrad and then Athrad Daer) is again over Gelion. I had not before observed that in B it is not only the position of the battle that changes but in fact the position of Sarn Athrad - and that this change was certainly temporary, as seen in "Maeglin". This raises for me the question of whether TY C and D in fact represent a change from B or not. If not, then they refer to Ascar not because, as we have supposed, there is now another ford over that river, at which the battle now takes place, but rather because at this stage Sarn Athrad was a ford over Ascar, not Gelion, and the battle remained at Sarn Athrad. Alternatively, one could suppose that C represents a further stage of development from B, with the name "Sarn Athrad" transferred back to the ford over Gelion but the battle kept at the (now unnamed) ford over Ascar. Or one could suppose that Ascar in all these TY versions is a mistake (which I still think is a possibility, though I admit it may be unlikely). Suppose we discount the possibility that it is a mistake. We are left with the two possibilities: 1. The story underlying TY C is the same as that in B: Sarn-athrad is now a ford over Ascar. 2. The story has changed so that Sarn-athrad is over Gelion and the battle at another ford, over Ascar. Of these two options, I am inclined to think, in view of the lack of any evidence of a change from the story in B, that 1 is more likely. If this is the case, then the battle was and always remained at Sarn Athrad, and so should it in our version, with Sarn Athrad/Athrad Daer, as per "Maeglin", again over Gelion/Duin Daer. Maedhros wrote: Quote:
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#35 | ||
The Kinslayer
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My point was that because Tolkien in that letter changed the rôle of Celegorm and Curufin back to Beren, is it reliable to consider that the battle between the dwarves and Beren and Co. would be in a ford over the River Ascar. If one part of the note was changed, does that make the other part dubious? Then again, I think that you have made a fine point with: Quote:
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#36 |
King's Writer
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The possible transfer of the name Sarn Athrad to the supposed Ford over Ascar I mention in post #26. And the more I think about it the more I am inclined to feel that this is the way to go.
As Aiwendil did in his post I will put forward my view of the textual development. This is clearly a subjektive view and can be in error in some places, but I hope it will give some insight into my arguments: The situation that I start my lock with is represented in Q30: The River Gelion had no falls or rapids. The Ford named Sarn Athrad was directly south of the confluence of Ascar and Gelion. The Battle took place at Sarn Athrad. The gold was cast either actively by the Elves into Ascar (near at hand) or by the dwarves into the Ford over the joined waters of Ascar and Gelion. ( I think that Tolkien meant the second option and wrote Ascar here more figuratively.) Now Tolkien "discovered" the story of the fight of the Folk of Haleth against the Orcs. This necessitated a change in the geography by which Sarn Athrad moved to a place somewhat north of the confluence of Ascar and Gelion. (I think that in these geographic development the falls of Gelion were introduced, but that can not be demonstrated.) In view of this the casting of the Gold into Ascar as described in Q30 would become an active deed of the Elves. That the pass south of the Dolmed led still into Ossirinad and therefore came down south of Ascar is seen by the fact that all the groups of Men that came over the mountains first came to Ossiriand and not to Thargelion. The House of Bëor removed to Estolad by the biding of Felagund and the House of Marach followed them, but the House of Haleth was driven out of Ossiriand by the Green-Elves. When Tolkien now came to write TY he wanted to avoid the active role the Elves played in the drowning of the hoard. But he also still wanted the Gold to be cast into the River Ascar and not into Gelion, because Ascar was the River that would receive a new name in the course of that story. Thus he changed the place of the battle to be at a Ford over Ascar. (Such a Ford, as is demonstrated above, was anyway necessary.) This change underlies already the very compressed expression in TY A even if it is not made very explicit. That Ford over Ascar was named now Sarn Athrad as is more clearly seen in TY B, C and D in which Tolkien developed the story further by introducing Curufin and Celegrom. (I will not go into detail of that development since it is clearly rejected in Letter no. 247.) The only further information we have is in the "Maeglin"-papers. There we are given the information that between the ford over Gelion and the confluence with Ascar is a Fall in the River of Gelion. The Name Sarn Athrad is found only three times in these papers: Once (uncorrected) in a note describing Eöls journey to Nogrod (label (ii) by Christopher Tolkien) and in two marginal notes to the unnamed Ford over Gelion in which we are told that the Ford should be renamed from Sarn Athrad to Athrad Daer, Harathrad or Athrad i-Negyth. Since we see Tolkien here "thinking with the pen" I would interpret the mention of Sarn Athrad in note (ii) as a unconscious use of an long established but now outdated name for the Ford over Gelion. In the other places were he spoke about the Ford he did not name it and in the accompanying notes he developed a new name for the Ford over Gelion since Sarn Athrad, the Stony Ford, was possibly no longer fitting for that Ford and was now used for the Ford over Ascar. In the above given interpretation of mine a "slip of the pen" is only once needed to make it work. I view that as a evidence that I am not to fare of track, since to supposed that the author is in error by writing about his own creation is a trick that only works for me as ultima ratio. But anyway it is an very subjective interpretation. I hope it will bring some clearness for you about my view on the subject at least. Respectfully Findegil |
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#37 | |||||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Maedhros wrote:
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Findegil wrote: Quote:
I have a few disagreements with your summary of the texts. Quote:
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It would seem to me very strange for us to use "Athrad Daer", which occurs only as a replacement for Sarn Athrad, for the ford over Gelion, and too retain "Sarn Athrad" for the ford over Ascar. For this was certainly not Tolkien's intention when he wrote "Athrad Daer". On the other hand, it also seems wrong for us to now place the battle, which in every text occurs at Sarn Athrad, at an unnamed ford over Ascar. |
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#38 | |||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Posted by Aiwendil:
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Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
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Also we learn that the Ascar cold be crossed at least in its upper course. It is not stated but possible that in his southward movment Finrod still followed the Dwarf-road. A posible southward movment of the Edain after crossing the Mountian at the pass about Dolmed is possible but does not seem to be likley: The landscape of southern Thargelion seemd to be very similar to that of northern Ossiriand (as is to be expected), thus I can't find any good reason why all the Edain if they had used a pass that led them into Thargelion would have crossed Ascar. It is much more likley that they used a pass that led them down into Ossirand. It is trure that we do not know that they used the pass near Dolmed to which the Dwarf-road led. All I can bring forward against a second pass further south are only week arguments. Thus my assumption that they used the pass south of Dolmed "rests in the last resort on nothing more definte than the sound principle that where all is uncertain one's hypothesis must be simplified as fare as possible."(JRR Tolkien in "The Freswæl: Finn and Hengest) Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
Posted by Aiwendil: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#39 | ||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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After a further day of thought and some reading, I will give in. Aiwendil made a good point with his argument that "Maeglin" could also represent a change back to the old story. What I found in addition was this detail from Q30:
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Thus at the long last we will take the battle to be at the ford named Athrad Daer which led over the Duin Daer and the Green-Elves will - implicit of course - transport the hoard and drown it in the River Ascar which is then renamed Rathmallen. On small possible add I found while rereading what we have done: Quote:
Also I marked this point: Quote:
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Otherwise I think we are done with this part of the Ruin of Doriath. The next part are the Wanderings of Húrin. I have provided a list of changes in the thread "The Ruin of Doritah - The Shadow Falls on Brethil". Respectfully Findegil |
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#40 | ||||||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Last edited by Aiwendil; 02-06-2005 at 09:45 PM. |
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