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#1 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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This is the first draft of the chapter The Stewards.
This chapter uses a thoroughly mixed bag of sources, so I mark every addition made to the text. The markings are: FY-HL-xx for all the headlines for the Fading Years. TS-SL-xx for all expansions and changes to the narrative. Some conventions of my writing: Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalized text, normally only used for general changes, as well as changes which are a part of replacement that is not grammatical. Underlined Text = text changed for grammatical reasons in the process of combining and inserting and removing. <source example> = additions with source information ...... = This section of the paragraph is unchanged from the source. Quote:
TS-SL-01: We start off with the part of The Stewards narrative in Appendix A where we left off. This carries us through to the events of the Hobbit. TS-SL-02: This is the only detail given in the Rohan version of the story that is missing from the Stewards account. TS-AA-01: Here is where the origin of Aragorn's parents belongs chronologically. I use the longer version from the earlier draft of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, while keeping the names true to the final versions. TS-AA-02: Here we switch to the final version from Appendix A TS-AA-03: This was removed to avoid redundancy with the new first paragraph. TS-AA-04: This detail from the draft is missing from the final version. TS-AA-05: This detail from the draft is missing from the final version. TS-SL-03: Here we have the leadup to The Hobbit given in the Dwarven section of Appendix A. This details the struggle of the Dwarves to gain back Erebor. TS-SL-04: Here we give the Of the Rings of Power section dealing with the events of The Hobbit, but the ones that deal with Sauron and the ring. I place this after the Dwarven perspective, even though they happen at the same time, simply for ease of readership. I think this works out fine, even if it is slightly misleading about the timeline, but I think it is fine. In this we describe the finding of the Ring by Bilbo. TS-SL-05: Here we return to the Stewards and mention the arising of Sauron in Mordor once again. TS-SL-06: Since we broke the narrative, I think we should remind the reader who we are discussing, so I added this. TS-SL-07: Here we switch back to the kings of Rohan portion of Appendix A. This is Fengel's piece. TS-SL-08: We follow that with Thengel's. TS-SL-09: We follow that with Theoden's. TS-SL-10: Here we discuss Theodwyn, the daughter of Thengel, and her children, Eowyn and Eomer. TS-SL-11: Here we discuss the childhood of Eowyn and Eomer. TS-SL-12: This detail is relevant here. I took it from Eomer's description in the kings of rohan section. TS-AA-06: Here we give the bit about Aragorn coming of age and learning his identity. This takes place chronologically before some of the events in the previous Rohan discussion, but I think it is important to keep those together, so I place it here before the discussion of Ecthelion and Denethor. I changed his name from Estel since in the breaking up of the narrative we may not remember that Estel is an alternate name for Aragorn. This way seems more straightforward and less confusing. TS-SL-13: Here we switch back to the Sewards narrative and describe Ecthelion, Denethor, and Thorongil. TS-AA-07: Here we have the troth of Aragorn and Arwen and the beginning of Aragorn's travels, which explains the ending of the Thorongil narrative that preceded. TS-SL-14: We return to the Stewards narrative to discuss Denethor and his sons, and bring the narrative right up to the time of LotR. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 07-04-2018 at 03:10 PM. |
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#2 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Actually, upon further reflection, I think I can edit the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen into the narrative of the main story. I think this will help add substance and characters to the end of the Third Age in the narrative. The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen begins in this chapter according to chronology, and so I will post my edits shortly with the editing marker TS-AA-xx for Aragorn and Arwen.
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#3 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I have updated the first post with the new version. Apologies for the confusion.
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#4 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Sorry for the multiple posts, but now that the majority of the Aragorn and Arwen story is added to this chapter, perhaps that could be the new title for the chapter: Of Aragorn and Arwen?
Last edited by ArcusCalion; 07-04-2018 at 03:22 PM. |
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#5 | ||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Some comments on the changes, not considering the recasting discussed in the Outline thread:
TS-AA-02: The reference to Aragorn as king seems out of place. We change it thus: Quote:
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TS-SL-04: I agree that it might be the best way to tell the interwoven events in this placing. If we take in Of the Finding of the Ring we must of course skip most of the last paragraph. TS-SL-05: There is to much redudance in this paragraph, I would reduce it thus: Quote:
TS-SL-08: This is okay for me even so the last sentence feels a bit redundant. TS-SL-09: Neither the name Ednew nor the story behind do fit here. If told here they would be pretelling of events to come. I think we should avoid that. And simply leave this addition out. It should be included in the next chapter. TS-SL-10: Having removed Théoden we have to add his name here: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#6 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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TS-AA-02b: I agree, and I prefer the second option, with the Chieftain of the Dunedain info.
TS-SL-03/04: In the next post I will give my restructured form of this chapter, where these changes will be made. After that we can discuss the Quest for Erebor and how it could fit in. TS-SL-05b/07b: Agreed. TS-SL-09: Agreed. I have found a place for it in the final chapter. TS-SL-10: Agreed. Having incorporated these changes, I will make a new post in the same style as the first post, where I will lay out the new structure. I will only explain the changes which were not in the first draft or in this post. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 07-10-2018 at 08:04 AM. |
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#7 | ||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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This is the first draft of the chapter Of the Finding of the Ring.
This chapter uses a thoroughly mixed bag of sources, so I mark every addition made to the text. The markings are: FY-HL-xx for all the headlines for the Fading Years. TS-SL-xx for all expansions and changes to the narrative. TS-FR-xx for all expansions and changes relating to the new Finding of the Ring material. Some conventions of my writing: Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalized text, normally only used for general changes, as well as changes which are a part of replacement that is not grammatical. Underlined Text = text changed for grammatical reasons in the process of combining and inserting and removing. <source example> = additions with source information ...... = This section of the paragraph is unchanged from the source. Quote:
TS-FR-01: Here we switch to the text Of the Finding of the Ring. I made very few alterations to this. TS-FR-02: I removed a bit discussing LotR as the book following this text. Upon returning to the narrative of Durin's Folk, I made a small change to allow the text to flow better. TS-FR-03: I return to the text Of the Finding of the Ring for the remainder of Bilbo's story. TS-SL-04.5: Most of this paragraph has to go for the sake of redundancy, so I tried to do so. I think I have made it work. Everything else is the same as the revised form we discussed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Next is the first draft of the chapter The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. This chapter uses a thoroughly mixed bag of sources, so I mark every addition made to the text. The markings are: FY-HL-xx for all the headlines for the Fading Years. TS-SL-xx for all expansions and changes to the narrative. TS-AA-xx for all expansions and changes relating to the Aragorn and Arwen material. Quote:
This completes the restructuring proposal. From here, Fin can comment on the changes, and then we can discuss adding in the Quest for Erebor material. |
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#8 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Okay, I agree to the changes so far. The chapter The Tale of Agarorn and Arwen looks fine for me. What follows is my draft for the inclusion of the The Quest to Erebor material. I will give it in full even so TS-SL-01 & TS-SL-02 are unchanged, but I would like to change the structure a bit as well. I think we should puch TS-SL-01 & TS-SL-02 into the chapter Concerning Gandalf, Saruman, and the Shire, It does not fit their well, but better than in a chapter named The Quest of Erebor as this one should benamed know. As I would like to use that title here I would suggest to rename the earlier chapter Sauron Defeated to The Last Alliance.
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FY-HL-14.2: I took this a chaptertitle since it is the best summary of what follows. FY-HL-14.4: This first Sub-chapter title might be left out, but it fit well and if we decised to keep TS-SL-01 & TS-SL-02 in this chapter the sub-heading is usefull. TS-QE-01: I replaced part of the text from LotR, Appendix A with this passage as it seems the fuller account to me. TS-QE-02: Here we begin with the real text of The Quest of Erebor. As we shift here from Frodo reporting Gandalf’s telling of the story to a straight forward reporting, we have to remove a lot ‘I’ and ‘he’ and so on. Bisde that in this fist part telling about Gandalf’s thought at the time we have to change the time. I will not farther comment on these changes which are all marked as grammatical. TS-QE-03: I removed this paragraph change to make clearer that what follows is Gandalf’s thought. TS-QE-04: I added this part of the Appendix here where I think it fits best. TS-QE-05: This direct address of Gandalf to the hobbits as his audience has to go. TS-QE-06: We take up the text of the The Quest of Erebor where we left it when inserting TS-QE-04. TS-SL-03b: That passage is what I preserved of the original editing of ArcusCalion. The direct talk of Gandalf and Thorin at this occasion is not given eleswhere. TS-QE-07: We take up the text of the The Quest of Erebor where we left it when inserting TS-SL-03b. TS-QE-08: This comes from a later part of the Appendix of The Quest of Erebor. But in our retelling it fits best here. TS-QE-09: Again we take up the text of The Quest of Erebor where we left it when inserting TS-QE-08. TS-QE-10: Thorin’s long tale is not given in The Quest of Erebor, but I think it is need in our work to make the allusion to the Map and the Key of Erebor that will follow understandable. Beside the version in The Hobbit that is unusable for us and LotR, Appendix A that we have already used, we have this version from the 1960 revision of The Hobbit. TS-QE-11: Here the text of the 1960 Hobbit ends and we have to take it from the original. TS-QE-12: And addition given in the 1960 Hobbit. TS-QE-13: And addition given in the 1960 Hobbit. TS-QE-14: The 1960 Hobbit has here Thorin speak of him self and not all his people. TS-QE-15: Again we take up the text of The Quest of Erebor where we left it when inserting TS-QE-10. TS-QE-16: I think this direct thought of Gandalf is worth including. TS-QE-17: Again we take up the text of The Quest of Erebor where we left it when inserting TS-QE-16. TS-QE-18: This comes form an earlier point in the Appendix of The Quest of Erebor as an answer to Pippins question. But if we want to include it, here seems the best palce. Of course the direct address to Pippin has to be removed. TS-QE-19: Again we take up the text of The Quest of Erebor where we left it when inserting TS-QE-18. TS-QE-20: Gandalf’s reasoning about Bilbo not being married seems worth the iteruption. I reformed the commentary of Christopher Tolkien into a footnote. But if that is not aoky we can leave it out. TS-QE-21: Again we take up the text of The Quest of Erebor where we left it when inserting TS-QE-20. TS-QE-22: Here we change over to the long account of the discussion in Thorins Hall. TS-QE-23: Again we take up the text of The Quest of Erebor where we left it when inserting TS-QE-22, but only for very short insert, giving Gandalf’s assumption that it was a mistake not to see Bilbo first. TS-QE-24: This allusion to the attack on Dol Guldur has to go. Gandalf does at this point not know that he would be succsefull in persuading the council to the attack. TS-QE-25: As Christopher Tolkien tells us he thinks that this was left out untentianal, so we should restore it. TS-QE-26: Again direct address by Gandalf to his audience. TS-QE-27: I took up the text of The Quest of Erebor where we left it when inserting TS-QE-22, marking what was left out or used in TS-QE-23 as deleted. TS-QE-28: The account of how long Thrain had been in prison and the guessing of how he could keep Map and Key are not found elsewhere. TS-QE-29: Again we take up the text of The Quest of Erebor where we left it when inserting TS-QE-28. FY-HL-14.6: If we take up this story we should as well take the sub-chapter heading. Now to the story itself: It is in a way contray to The Hobbit. But on the other hand it expands a few paragraphs into on full chapter. And the contradiction is only to one sentence that was added in to the second addition and created the biggest unconsitence between Hobbit and LotR. Before the Last Bridge over Mitheithel was introduce into the text of The Hobbit the episode of the pony jumping into the river and all the adventure with the Trolls were placed near to Bruinen some way lower than the ford. When JRR Tolkien added the Bridge he did it in a way that switched the secne of the Troll adventure to a point observeable from near to the Bridge. In itself that did not creat a problem, but with Aragorn, a Ranger in great haste to reach Rivendell, needing days to find that spot the account as given in The Hobbit is impossible. Beside that the journey of Thorin and Co. on Ponies is much to slow compared to Frodo & Co. on foot. The expanded story helps to explain that. Thus I think we should take the opportunity given with in our chapter The Quest of Erebor to give this far more detailed alternative account of the journey up to the point of crossing the Mitheithel. See farther TS-QE-35 to TS-QE-38. TS-QE-30: We start with a kind of summary of the events at Bag-end, to make clear that they realy set out. TS-QE-31: Here we take up the text form the 1960 Hobbit. TS-QE-32: The detail about the All-welcome Inn and the roads used by stangers is new and given nowhere else. TS-QE-33: I thought it worth mentioning that they did not expect to find the last Inn deserted. As Gandalf and Thorin had been at Bree only in March, the desertion of the Inn must have been rather recently. TS-QE-34: Even so JRR Tolkien did not mention it, I think Weathertop should be included as landmark of the journey. TS-QE-35: Here I skipt the episode of the pony jumping into Mitheithel. If included we would creat the same problem as mentione under FY-HL-14.6. TS-QE-36 & TS-QE-37: Giving here the farther course of the road allows as to make the mind of the reader work out the rest of the correction I attemped to do: If Thorin & Co. followed the raod the Bruinen, then that is where the Pony jumps into and where they are near to the Troll lair. TS-QE-38: The transition might be a bit forced, but that the break would be hard at the end of this additions from The Quest of Erebor and the 1960 Hobbit was clear from the outset. FY-HL-15b: I called this editing 15b because it is set in a quite different palce and position. TS-FR-01b: As I used part of this text before, the point were I took up that text is changed. TS-QE-39: This is an allusion to LotR, so we should remove it. FY-HL-15.5: I desiered a sub-chapter brake here and this title seemed the only one fitting the following at all. If someone has a better idea, I am open for discussions. TS-FR-01.5: This is only to mark that we follow the text of the Prologue. In the effect I inserted the headline into it. TS-QE-40: As we start out by saying we would not tell any thing about the rest of Bilbos adventure we have to qualify this here I think. TS-QE-41: Gandalf absents from the longer part of the Quest and the reason for it seems important enough to be mentioned. TS-QE-42: We take up the text of the Prologue where we left it inserting TS-QE-41. TS-QE-43: Here we switch finaly back to LotR, Appendix A. The slight redundance seems okay to me, since Appendix A adds the detail of Bard as the slayer of Smaug. TS-FR-03 & TS-SL-04: These are unchanged. TS-QE-44: Here I added a detail about Saurons orgininal plans and the effect of disturbing him. TS-SL-04.5 to TS-SL-12. These are again unchanged. A long post and a lot of text added. I hope at least a part of it makes it to the final version. Respectfully Findegil |
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#9 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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As this post is very very long, I think I will first make some general responses:
1) First thing first: WOW! This is an incredibly skillful and labor-intensive draft, and I must congratulate you, Fin, on executing it as well as you did! Your draft has convinced me that we can and should include The Quest for Erebor into this chapter. 2) To your point about shifting the short description of the events of Turin and Folcwine's sons to the previous chapter I agree. 3) In terms of Chapter headings and subheadings: I think that we do not need more than The Quest for Erebor (as the chapter name) and Of the Finding of the Ring as a subheading. I know they must both contain a LOT of information, but I think that is ok. The first subheading you suggested, A Well-Planned Party is not needed once we shift the first few paragraphs to the previous chapter, and (as I will argue below) The Broken Bridge belongs to a segment of the draft which I think should be removed entirely. Finally, Sauron Defeated, while it would be nice to have a subheading here, I think it is innacurate. He is not defeated in this case, as is made very plain by the text. He simply retreats before them, which was his plan in the end anyway, so he is in no way defeated. In addition, I think we should avoid creating chapter names from no source (like The Last Alliance) and so [i]Sauron Defeated would be better served there. To combat the length of the chapter, we can discuss making Of the Finding of the Ring into its own chapter dealing with the actual adventure of Bilbo, as opposed to The Quest for Erebor which would deal with the lead-up to the adventure. 4) The Inclusion of the 1960 Hobbit revisions: To begin, I will lay out what is used: 1) the bit about the sorrows of the Dwarves as told by Thorin, and 2) the first few chapters of the adventure from setting out from Bagend to the Trolls. First of all, I think to use the texts of these revisions is very risky. In many places they are extremely similar to the text of the Hobbit itself. As including The Hobbit in the story lies outside the scope of the project, I think to include a retelling in the exact same scope and narrative style and level of detail also goes against the project's scope. However, the two pieces used are not the same. The discussion of Thorin about the sorrows of his house (1) is (I think) different, simply because of the reason you included it: we know it happened at that point of the story, so to assume it was the same account is not unreasonable, and using the draft version is different enough from the published for it to work. However, for (2) I see no benefit to giving a highly detailed description of their adventure up to right before Rivendell, and then summarizing the entire 2/3 of the remaining narrative in one or two paragraphs. If the entire adventure must be summarized, then we should simply summarize it, instead of giving some of it in full and then reverting to summary. In addition, I worry that revising the speech of the characters in the Hobbit is tantamount to contradiction of the published work. For all of these reasons, I am fundamentally opposed to include the revised text describing their adventures (TS-QE-31 to 37). Aside from these things mentioned, overall the composition of the draft was incredibly good, and any more detailed concerns I lay out will be restricted to differences of opinion about tense changes, or how to present Gandalf's thoughts. In terms of the structure of the additions and changes, it was phenomenally done. In the following post I will lay out my specific comments, and I'll try to have that post up at least by sometime tomorrow. I would still love to be able to see a full draft posted in the private forum, as opposed to simply selections, as it makes the commenting and editing process much easier. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 07-11-2018 at 12:58 PM. |
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#10 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Everything to which I do not respond (and everything not mentioned in the previous post) I agree to.
TS-QE-03: I agree to this addition here, but I would edit it differently, as your version does not flow naturally. Quote:
TS-QE-05: This is fine, but at the end of the addition, there are some sentences about picking Bilbo specifically, which I think are out of place. They should be moved down to TS-QE-18, or removed entirely. TS-QE-31 to 37: As I said in my last post, I think these should be removed, and it can flow as it did in my own draft, starting with TS-QE-30 after the subheading Of the Finding of the Ring, or perhaps it can be a new chapter. The rest seems fine. As can be seen, I have relatively few changes, as this was a masterful draft. There may be more things for me to comment on when I see the full text, especially spelling and grammatical errors, but in terms of structure these are my only concerns. |
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#11 | |||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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1) Thank you for the flowers, I am not sure they are warranted.
2) Okay. 3) Oaky we leave A Well-Planned Party out and if we are done with the discussion about the corresponding content we can decised about The Broken Bridge. I can see your reason and agree to use Sauron defeated at its original place. But nonetheless I think we need and replacement for it here in this chapter. As we have no good title I would add an editorial * * *. I have no problem with the length of the chapter and therefore would keep Of the Finding of the Ring as sub heading. 4) Interisting, I thought that focus of the discussion would be exactly oposit, as the fist addition from the 1960 Hobbit I actually had to use part of the book in print to get a full text. Anyhow I am happy with that talk of Thorin about the Dwarves of Erebor finding acceptance. Nonetheless I will break a lance for the inclusion of The Broken Bridge: I think we have done something very similar with material from The Quest of Erebor: First we have the description of the meeting and Discussion of Gandalf and Thorin and Gandalf’s visit to the shire and in the Blue Moutains for a second time, after that we have a short summary of Gandalf’s visit to Bilbo and the events at the afternoon. Then we get a broad retelling of the discussion between Gandalf and Thorin during the night, when Bilbo has gone to sleep. So we have detailed telling of events left out from The Hobbit mingled with short summary of events reported in that book. The same would be true if we include The Broken Bridge. The corosponding passage to all that I added for this sub-chapter from The Hobbit reads: Quote:
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TS-QE-03: Agreed, so I would avoid the following us of ‘he’ because the reverence is not fully clear: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#12 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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3) I agree to the use of the '*****' as an editorial distinction, as I think it is enough. I as well agree with keeping Of the Finding of the Ring as a subheading. As to The Broken Bridge see below.
4) Hmm actually seeing it all laid out is indeed very different. I hadn't realized just how short this portion of the adventure was.... Very well, I will agree to the inclusion of these changes, albeit somewhat reluctantly. I do not deny that it is something I had wanted to be able to do somehow when I learned about the 1960 revisions, perhaps to include in the project a 'revised' Hobbit, but I see now that this way is better. Very well Fin, you have won me over ![]() TS-QE-03: Agreed. I must say, after all that whirlwind of confusion, that turned out to be remarkably simple. Well done Fin! Your flowers are most absolutely deserved. |
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#13 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Sorry for not providing these changes at once with my draft, but I was hesitating about them until I had posted the draft:
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Findegil |
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#14 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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nice, looks good, some good tidbits!
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#15 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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An impressive amount of work went into this chapter, and it shows. "The Broken Bridge" is a very intimate and detailed telling of the story of the Hobbit up to a certain point, but I think it definitely fits within the scope of the project and I think it works pretty well. It is very Gandalf-focused and feels in sync with the parts from the Quest for Erebor. My comments and additions are fairly minor:
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3) Not a suggestion, but I think TS-QE-10 is a very clever use of the 1960s Hobbit. 4) Quote:
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I moved a sentence about Gandalf's horse that felt out of place: Quote:
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#16 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Thank you for your diligence gandalf!
1) This is fine for me. 2) I like this better as well. Agreed. 3) Yes, Fin did a wonderful job. 4) Agreed 5) Is this canon? That Gandalf did not know it was Thrain? I felt that it said he did somewhere. 6) Agreed 7) I like this placing much better. 8) no 8? lol 9) Agreed, nice transition. I would not make that sentence its own paragraph tho, and I would call that addition TS-FR-00.5 and keep the other as is. 10) I like this better, Agreed. 11) Nice find! Agreed. 12) Good catch! Agreed. 13) Thank you! |
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#17 | |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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5) I believe it's canon. In both the Quest of Erebor and the Making of Appendix A, it states he did not know who Thrain was. I will be on the look-out to see if I find this contradicted somewhere.
8) I have a minor in math but apparently cannot count. 11) I was wondering why you guys removed the last bit about the ringbearer, and I think I know why: it's basically a spoiler the way we have it structured. This text was intended to be a "looking back" conversation between Gandalf and the hobbits and Gimli after the War of the Ring. I think it's probably best to remove the last bits about the Ringbearer, but keep the part about Sauron and Smaug helping one another: Quote:
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#18 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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5) I guess this is one of those times that an assumption becomes so ingrained in our heads we think it's canon! I agree to the change, pending any discovery of contradictory canon info.
11) Ah I missed that. I think it is the right choice to remove it, as Fin had done, so I agree to this change. |
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#19 | ||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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1) & 2) Agreed.
3) Nice that both of you like it. 4) Agreed. 5) Yes, it clearly is cannon that Gandalf did not know from whom he got the key and the map. 6) It is true that the dwarves were employed as road menders, but here the perspective is different: If we would make this change we would state that the Hobbits employed the dwarves as road menders. Do we konw that for sure? I don’t think so. 7) & 8) Agreed. 9) Okay, I see that I did not reach what I wanted. I think this will make my goal clearer: Quote:
11) A good addition. And I think we should keep more of it. What about this: Quote:
13) It is so good for the quality of our text to have reader who gives feed back. Respectfully Findegil |
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#20 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Fin:
9) Agreed 11) agreed |
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#21 | |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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6) Yes, you're right, we're not completely sure that dwarves were employed as road-menders specifically on the East Road. So let's keep "it would also appear that".
11) Agreed. 13) I agree with keeping more of it, but I am unsure about one part. Quote:
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#22 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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That sort of very limited spoiler is, I think, fine. It reveals very little about the nature of the further narrative, so I think it is ok to leave it. We have similar vague call-forwards in previous chapters.
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#23 |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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Yeah, you're right, it is a pretty vague "call-forward". OK, I agree to keep it.
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#24 | |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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There is a footnote mentioning Balin in the "Hunt for the Ring" chapter, and I figured we should include Balin's expedition to Moria in the main text. The Tale of Years only contains for the entry 2989: "Balin leaves Erebor and enters Moria." However, Return of the Shadow contains a lengthier description which is not in the final published FotR. I propose we place it in "Of the Finding of the Ring" before TS-SL-07b. TS-FR-03 describes Bilbo returning home, so it has to come after that. Here is the text:
Quote:
I think we should also include the fate of Balin later on, possibly in the "Treason of Isengard" chapter when the company arrives at Moria. I will look for something to add when I post my comments on that chapter. Last edited by gandalf85; 02-02-2019 at 02:14 PM. |
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#25 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I like this very much! Have we mentioned Balin at all before this? If not we may need to.
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#26 |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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"Of Durin's Folk" has two mentions of Balin, and Balin is there when Gandalf has a discussion with Thorin about the Quest for Erebor (he even has a few speaking lines in our text).
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#27 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Perfect!
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#28 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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TS-FR-05: Very nice find! I would only edit t in one place a bit differently:
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I am as well a bit unsure about the evil news at the end. In the original context it would be made clear in the next chapter that this evil news did not come form Moria, but from Mordor. But in our case it is just an evil forshadowing. For the time being I would let it stand. Respectfully Findegil |
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#29 |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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That change looks good to me, Fin.
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#30 | |||||||||||||||||||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Okay I found somethings by pure chance that I missed when we were doing this chapter. I was reading Tolkien: Maker of Middle-earth for the next post in the Maps and Pictures thread, when I came to a facsimily of Plot Note A for The Hobbit. Since Tolkiens handwriting is not easy I couldn’t read it fully, but then I thought, that as we have Mr Baggins and Return to Bag-End we must have these Plotnotes in transcription. And so it is, there are not only Plot Note A but a series from a First Outline over Plot Note A up to Plot Note F. With these we can handle story of Bilbo & Co. in much more similar way as that of Frodo & Co.. My approach to do that follows here.
Since this will become a very long message, I will split it into three postings. As always I will start with text with all our editing marks, but striped of source text as far as possible. But the possibility of stripping is small due to the necessary load of editing. This will be followed in the second post by some comments and then in the third post by the new part of the chapter in plain text. As a matter of fact you find in both versions as well the new placement of the pictures that up to now have been collected together to kind of picture story. I will not here comment on these. The next on my agenda is a posting in the ‘Drawings, Pictures and Maps?’ thread with this and other information found in the process of reading mentioned above. The markings are: FY-HL-xx for all the headlines for the Fading Years. TS-SL-xx for all expansions and changes to the narrative. TS-FR-xx for all expansions and changes relating to the new Finding of the Ring material. TS-BB-xx for all expansions and changes relating to the material from The History of the Hobbit Some conventions of my writing: Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalized text, normally only used for general changes, as well as changes which are a part of replacement that is not grammatical. Underlined Text = text changed for grammatical reasons in the process of combining and inserting and removing. /example/ = text used to expaned an outline or plot notes <source example> = additions with source information ...... = This section of the paragraph is unchanged from the source. Quote:
Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 11-26-2019 at 01:46 PM. |
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#31 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Remarks about the new editings:
FY-HL-14.2: Unchanged TS-FR-03.5b: I put that passage here in front of the chapter because it is more of a description of the generall situation in the world and it fits well to the end of the last chapter and as an intro into this new one. TS-SL-04.5b: I took up much more of these passage so it is a kind of pretelling. But that does serve well here as an intor. But as we have not yet spoken aboute the assult upon Dol Guldur, the reference to it must go. TS-QE-01: Unchanged TS-QE-02b: Unchanged TS-QE-03: Unchanged TS-QE-04b: Unchanged TS-QE-05: Unchanged TE-QE-05.1: Unchanged TE-QE-05.2: Unchanged TS-QE-06b: Unchanged TS-SL-03b: Unchanged TS-QE-07 to TS-QE-10: Unchanged TS-QE-11b: I found a better source, more removed from the final text. TS-QE-12: Unchanged TS-QE-13b: Unchanged TS-QE-14 to TS-QE-27: Unchanged TS-QE-27.1: Unchanged TS-QE-27.2: Unchanged TS-QE-28 & TS-QE-29: Unchanged FY-HL-14.6: Unchanged TS-QE-30 to TS-QE-32: Unchanged TS-QE-32.5: Unchanged TS-QE-33.7: Unchanged TS-QE-33: Unchanged TS-QE-33.5: Unchanged TS-QE-34: Unchanged TS-QE-34.5: Unchanged TS-QE-34.7: Unchanged TS-QE-34.9: Unchanged TS-QE-35 & TS-QE-36: Unchanged TS-QE-38: Unchanged TS-QE-38.1: Even so the text is the same, I changed the source. FY-HL-15b: Unchanged TS-FR-00.5: Unchanged TS-FR-01b: Unchanged TS-QE-39: Unchanged TS-BB-01 & TS-BB-02: Here the new editing realy begins. As there is a gap between the place we have reached with The Finding of the Ring and the beginning of the First Outline I have filled that gap by {Thorin}[Gandalf] telling the story of their journey to {Medwed}[Beorn]. Of course I had to remove the arrival of all the dwarves, therefore this is spilted in to parts. TS-BB-03: Here First Outline starts with a blank statement we have to expand to a sentence. TS-BB-04: Polt Notes A is a much fuller text and therefore preferred as sun as it starts. FY-HL-15.5b: I took up this chapter title because it serves as a binder for two far separated items combined. TS-SL-04b: I found it better fitting to tell of Gandalfs reason to leave Thorin & Co. in the moment he does leave. But how ever this first sentence with its description of the darkening of Mirkwood would fit here anyhow. TS-QE-41c: This did nearly not move at all, but it is now embedded into a quite new context. TS-FR-03.5a: This is not only moved but as well a bit changed, to have a smoother integration. TS-QE-41d: The next part that I moved to this place. TS-QE-44a: And with this we end the telling of the attack on Dol Guldur. TS-BB-06: We stay in Mirkwood but go back to Thorin & Co. TS-BB-07: The outline is a bit thinking with the pen, so we have to sort it a bit here. TS-BB-08: I think this addition from the top margin has to go in here. TS-BB-09: We change here to Plot Notes B since they do fit the tale as it was written in the end more closely. FY-HL-15.7: I took this sub-chapter heading again from Mr. Baggins. TS-BB-10: We continue with Plot Notes B. TS-BB-11: That the key from the Troll-purse fited the door was only eliminated in the final writing so we have no chance as to insert a few words from The Hobbit. TS-BB-12: Here we change to the new Plot Notes C. TS-BB-13: To compile a text coherent in itself and fiting the later final version I used here part of Plot Notes B even so it was replaced by Plot Notes C. TS-BB-14: In the outlines the dwarves hide in holes and under rocks. So again we have to take a sentence from a more finished text. TS-BB-15: A small change, but important to make the story fit to what is said in The Hobbit. TS-BB-16 & TS-BB-17: That Bilbo was burned and that he was suspicious against the dwarves are information found in Plot Notes B and not mentioned in the later ones, but taken up in the final text. TS-BB-18: I move this bit to get a chance to add the thrush here, which seems a necessary information seeing the later story. TS-BB-19 & TS-BB-20: The later story in the Plot Notes make it clear that the thrush overhearing Bilbo telling the dwarves about Smaug’s week spot was a part of the story, but to bring that into our text I had again to us are more finished version. TS-BB-21 & TS-BB-22: Again I constructed my text from Plot Notes B since they are a bit fuller text then the later Plot Notes. TS-BB-23: The closing of the door and Smaug’s fury I had agin to take from a more final text. TS-BB-24: Again a part of Plot Notes B serving to builf a coherent text. TS-BB-25: At least a bit of Plot Notes C useable. TS-BB-26: In the Notes it reads as if the Lake-men were succseful in quenching the fires, but we know from the final text that they were not. TS-BB-27 & TS-BB-28: This part is difficult to bring into accordance with the final text. Thefore it is a wild mixture. TS-QE-43b: We used Appendix A more widly in our last draft. I incopperated parts of it were this was helpful. TS-BB-29: In contrast to Plot Notes A to Plot Notes D Plot Notes E and Plot Notes F are really only separated notes. Therefore I took them spearingly and had to edit them greatly to be usefull. TS-BB-30: Here we reach the start of Plot Notes D which is the last integrated into Tolkiens pre-writing in short hand narrative form. TS-BB-31: A small detail added from Plot Notes B because it is only found there and in the final text. TS-BB-32: I reorganiced the sequence a bit, because I think it makes a better flow of the text. TS-BB-33: This is not mention in Plot Notes D. TS-BB-34: In the Plote Notes the place of the Arkenstone was taken by the Gem of Girion. I left the Gem in the earlier mention and added the Arkenstone, but here and later on we have to change it. TS-BB-35: That is the best I could find to make clear that Bilbo did know that it was not right to take the stone. TS-BB-36: A passage from Plot Notes E taken up here. TS-BB-37: Back to Plot Note D. TS-BB-38: That addon from the left margin seems to be long here. TS-QE-43.5b & TS-QE-43c: The Battle of the Five Armies is not told in the Plot Notes. Therefore we must use as we did in the last draft other sources. But I reorganized them to fit with the material found in the Plot Notes. TS-BB-39: The last page of the Plot Notes Tolkien left unchanged, therefore we are back at Plot Notes B here. TS-QE-43d: The next slice from the Appendix A needed because the Battle was not described in the Plot Notes. TS-BB-40 & TS-BB-41: Okay, these are from a Battle in the upper vale of Anduin but it was the best I found to construct our text and they fit more or less well. TS-BB-42: When this was written it was not planed for the death scene of Thorin, but it is for sure the first hint of the reconciliation of Thorin and Bilbo after the enstarngement following Bilbo giving the Arkenstone to Bard. TS-QE-43e: Back to Appendix A. TS-BB-43: The extension of this draft passage is based on the final text. TS-QE-43f, TS-QE-41c & TS-QE-43g: The next bits of our last draft arranged here. TS-BB-44: The dealing out of the treasure by Dain can here not be told as in the hobbit, but this passage does summarize it good enough. TS-BB-45 & TS-BB-46: The same here with Bilbo’s reward. TS-BB-47: Plot Notes F is a difficult source due to its nature as working notes, but it is the only source to build up part of the backward journey. TS-BB-48: I wanted to tell the story line of the Gem of Girion to its end. Even so I had to catch that text from a more final text, it is still fare from the version in The Hobbit. TS-BB-49: The Backward journey was only given in Plot Notes B. TS-FR-03b: This is only slightly changed due to its new circumstance. TS-FR-05: Unchanged. FY-HL-15.8: Does someone have a good idea for a headline here? Otherwise the stars must do to separate what follows from Bilbos adventure. TS-SL-07b: Unchanged. TS-SL-05b: Unchanged. TS-SL-06 to TS-SL-12: Unchanged. Respectfuly Findegil |
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#32 | |||||||||||||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Okay now at last a part of the new chapter in plain text:
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Findegil |
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#33 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 335
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Here might be a good place to suggest an addition from The Nature of Middle-earth, 'Beards', p. 188:
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