"Three Rings for the Elven Kings UNDER THE SKY" - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Iarhen · 03-13-2003, 07:58 AM

What does this mean? "Under the sky"?

Ive always wondered what this means. Does it mean that the rings are for the Elven Kings outside Valinor? Then Valinor is "above" the sky? Because I always thought that when Eru removed Valinor, it remained on the planet, only on a different and hidden location. The boats then could sail towards the lands.

But, again, if the quote reffers to the fact that Valinor is above the sky... Because the other remaining Elven Kings are the ones left in Valinor...

What do you think?

Carlas · 03-13-2003, 08:10 AM

'Under the sky' is exactly that, under the sky. But it does not mean that Valinor is in the sky, the bearers of those rings end up going to Valinor, which is under the sky. Also, elves are not in one spot, they are situated in many different areas(Rivendell,Lothlorien,etc). I think it shows that elves are found in many places in Middle-Earth and out.

Iarhen · 03-13-2003, 08:20 AM

The 3 rings for the elven kings under the sky remain being the 3 rings of elven power as long as the One Ring exists. When the elven kings go to Valinor, the rings are not anymore what they used to be. They do not have power anymore, so when the elven kings go to Valinor, the rings are not anymore...

And yes, I presume Valinor is above the sky, to avoid any further plots being schemed against the Valar by Sauron.

Malva Headstrong · 03-13-2003, 11:15 AM

Quote:

when the elven kings go to Valinor, the rings are not anymore

But when Gil-galad died (went to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor) Vilya kept its power. I don´t think that the "sky" refers to Valinor ´cause in some part of "The Council of Elrond" Gandalf says, that the great rings belong the ME, not to Valinor. Maybe "under the sky" shows the differences between elves and man, "doomed to die".

[ March 13, 2003: Message edited by: Malva Headstrong ]

Birdland · 03-13-2003, 11:25 AM

"Under the sky" is just a poetic concept, coming from beliefs that the universe is made of levels, Heaven, Earth, and the Underworld. Mortals are standing on the Earth, with Heaven above. Therefore we are "under the sky".

Mornie Alantie · 03-13-2003, 11:37 AM

I agree that the sky has some ME elven concept but I also think that it is just something poetic.

Iarhen · 03-13-2003, 11:43 AM

Even though Gil Galad died, Vilya kept its power because it was not tied to the life force of its bearer.

And I know it has some poetic sense in it, but it has to do something with the remaining elves on M.E. The other quotes that go after the description of the other groups of rings mean something about the races that hold them.

"for men, who above all desire power"

etc.

03-13-2003, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Because I always thought that when Eru removed Valinor, it remained on the planet, only on a different and hidden location. The boats then could sail towards the lands ...

Is Valinor on the planet? I really don't think so. The Planet only exists because the Valar bent the world into a sphere so that humans could never sail into the undying lands. Valar then would seem to be neither upon the surface of the earth, nor simply floating out in space. The business of sailing the straight road clearly implies (at least to me) and Valinor is outside of the reality of ME. That is, it's in an alternate plane of existence.

the guy who be short · 03-13-2003, 04:07 PM

i always thought under the sky just meant that elves lived under the sky in the open, rather than dwarves in their halls of stone. maybe he's simply comparing them without valinor in mind?

Inderjit Sanghera · 03-13-2003, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Is Valinor on the planet? I really don't think so.

It is still on Arda.

As for the question, I think it was just a poetic reference, as Tolkien muses over the ring verse many times, in early draftings. (HoME 6)and uses lines like "under moon and star"

Lindril Arvilya · 03-13-2003, 08:24 PM

It rhymes nicely.

Lush · 03-13-2003, 08:32 PM

Hey guys, I was wondering what the word "Kings" in the title of this thread refers to, and whether or not that's a subtle hint that Thranduil was meant to have one of the rings, but didn't, or perhaps a reference to Galadriel's appearance, or maybe an allegory that involves Elvis somehow?

Iarwain · 03-13-2003, 08:47 PM

Hmm. What do I think?

I agree with Lush. Definately talking about Elvis there.

Come on guys! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Look at the line after that:

"Seven for the dwarf lords in their halls of stone"

He's just making a simple relationship about where they live. Elves live out in the open, under the sky, and dwarves live in caves, in their halls of stone. Men are completely different, so he has to change the theme at line three. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Iarwain

GlingleglingleglingleFairy · 03-13-2003, 10:56 PM

I think 'under the sky' refers to the fact that Elves love the stars and wide, free-ness so they are under the sky and not bottled up or hidden somewhere.

Lindril Arvilya · 03-14-2003, 12:52 PM

Heh. Bottled Elves. Get yours here.

03-14-2003, 05:32 PM

Just another word to Valinor. I always pictured it as being in the "sky". I remember that when the Valar reshaped Arda after the Fall of Numenor they removed Valinor. Arda was flat in the First Age, then it is described as a round "planet". Therefore you need to go on the straight way to Valinor, to any "earthly" place you need to follow the circle.

Now to the question asked in the topic:
I always thought that under the sky is a reference to their awaikening under the sky full of stars. It is a sky by night in my mind.
But hey, I'm free to all interpretations.

ciao lilith

Inderjit Sanghera · 03-15-2003, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Valar reshaped Arda after the Fall of Numenor they removed Valinor.

Eru reshaped Arda not the Valar. As we can see in 'Myths Transformed' (HoME 10) Tolkien was beggining to work in a policy, which didn't incorporate the flat--->round earth theory.

03-13-2003, 07:58 AM	#1
Iarhen Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Laurelindorenan Posts: 225	"Three Rings for the Elven Kings UNDER THE SKY" What does this mean? "Under the sky"? Ive always wondered what this means. Does it mean that the rings are for the Elven Kings outside Valinor? Then Valinor is "above" the sky? Because I always thought that when Eru removed Valinor, it remained on the planet, only on a different and hidden location. The boats then could sail towards the lands. But, again, if the quote reffers to the fact that Valinor is above the sky... Because the other remaining Elven Kings are the ones left in Valinor... What do you think? __________________ "In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.

03-13-2003, 08:10 AM	#2
Carlas Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Lost in the Fog of the Downs Posts: 359	'Under the sky' is exactly that, under the sky. But it does not mean that Valinor is in the sky, the bearers of those rings end up going to Valinor, which is under the sky. Also, elves are not in one spot, they are situated in many different areas(Rivendell,Lothlorien,etc). I think it shows that elves are found in many places in Middle-Earth and out. __________________ 七転八起...

03-13-2003, 08:20 AM	#3
Iarhen Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Laurelindorenan Posts: 225	The 3 rings for the elven kings under the sky remain being the 3 rings of elven power as long as the One Ring exists. When the elven kings go to Valinor, the rings are not anymore what they used to be. They do not have power anymore, so when the elven kings go to Valinor, the rings are not anymore... And yes, I presume Valinor is above the sky, to avoid any further plots being schemed against the Valar by Sauron. __________________ "In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.

03-13-2003, 11:37 AM	#6
Mornie Alantie Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Somewhere above earth cause people say i should come down to it Posts: 226	I agree that the sky has some ME elven concept but I also think that it is just something poetic. __________________ Instead of pepper spray, you pack a glass bottle and scream "Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima!!!" at muggers.

03-13-2003, 11:43 AM	#7
Iarhen Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Laurelindorenan Posts: 225	Even though Gil Galad died, Vilya kept its power because it was not tied to the life force of its bearer. And I know it has some poetic sense in it, but it has to do something with the remaining elves on M.E. The other quotes that go after the description of the other groups of rings mean something about the races that hold them. "for men, who above all desire power" etc. __________________ "In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.

03-13-2003, 11:25 AM	#5
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	"Under the sky" is just a poetic concept, coming from beliefs that the universe is made of levels, Heaven, Earth, and the Underworld. Mortals are standing on the Earth, with Heaven above. Therefore we are "under the sky".

03-13-2003, 04:07 PM	#9
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	i always thought under the sky just meant that elves lived under the sky in the open, rather than dwarves in their halls of stone. maybe he's simply comparing them without valinor in mind?

03-13-2003, 08:24 PM	#11
Lindril Arvilya Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: In a box at the end of Harrison Ford's street, with a pair of binoculars Posts: 332	It rhymes nicely. __________________ Neo, watch out! Trinity's going to steal your pants! Pants thief! Pants thief!

03-13-2003, 08:32 PM	#12
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Hey guys, I was wondering what the word "Kings" in the title of this thread refers to, and whether or not that's a subtle hint that Thranduil was meant to have one of the rings, but didn't, or perhaps a reference to Galadriel's appearance, or maybe an allegory that involves Elvis somehow? __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

03-13-2003, 08:47 PM	#13
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Hmm. What do I think? I agree with Lush. Definately talking about Elvis there. Come on guys! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Look at the line after that: "Seven for the dwarf lords in their halls of stone" He's just making a simple relationship about where they live. Elves live out in the open, under the sky, and dwarves live in caves, in their halls of stone. Men are completely different, so he has to change the theme at line three. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

03-13-2003, 10:56 PM	#14
GlingleglingleglingleFairy Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 35	I think 'under the sky' refers to the fact that Elves love the stars and wide, free-ness so they are under the sky and not bottled up or hidden somewhere. __________________ "Many that live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement, even the very wisest cannot forsee all ends." Some people prefer cupcakes. I for one care less for them.

03-14-2003, 12:52 PM	#15
Lindril Arvilya Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: In a box at the end of Harrison Ford's street, with a pair of binoculars Posts: 332	Heh. Bottled Elves. Get yours here. __________________ Neo, watch out! Trinity's going to steal your pants! Pants thief! Pants thief!

03-14-2003, 05:32 PM	#16
lilith Guest Posts: n/a	Just another word to Valinor. I always pictured it as being in the "sky". I remember that when the Valar reshaped Arda after the Fall of Numenor they removed Valinor. Arda was flat in the First Age, then it is described as a round "planet". Therefore you need to go on the straight way to Valinor, to any "earthly" place you need to follow the circle. Now to the question asked in the topic: I always thought that under the sky is a reference to their awaikening under the sky full of stars. It is a sky by night in my mind. But hey, I'm free to all interpretations. ciao lilith