Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn

[Findegil]

This is the first draft of the chapter Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn in the part The Black Years.

Since in this part I found it very difficult to nominate a basic text, all snippets I used are marked by an editing mark with source information.

The markings are:
BY-HL-zz for Black Years, Head-Lines, marking all headlines for the chapters in this part.

CGC-SL-zz for Concerning Galadriel and Celebron, Story-Line, to document all changes that construct the main text.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the text that is mentioned in the source information of each insert.
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next.

BY-HL-08<Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn
>CGC-SL-01<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn The building of the chief city of Eregion, Ost-in-Edhil, was begun in about the year 750 of the Second Age CGC-SL-02{ [the date that is given in the Tale of Years for the founding of Eregion by the Noldor]}. News of these things came to the ears of Sauron, … for a stronghold as a counter to the threat of the Númenórean landings CGC-SL-03{ [this is dated c. 1000 in the Tale of Years]}. When he felt himself to be secure … wearing the fairest form that he could contrive.>
CGC-SL-04<Of the Rings of Power Seeing the desolation of the world, … and concealed the dark designs that he shaped in his heart.
Men he found the easiest to sway … those have who are beyond the Sea?'
It was in Eregion that the counsels of Sauron were most gladly received, … and to bring them under his vigilance.>
CGC-SL-05<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn But in the meantime the power of Galadriel and Celeborn had grown, … on the other side of the Misty Mountains.[Footnote to the text: CGC-SL-06{In a note to the text it is explained that }Lórinand was the Nandorin name of this region (afterwards called Lórien and Lothlórien), and contained the Elvish word meaning "golden light": "valley of gold." The Quenya form would be Laurenandë, the Sindarin Glornan or Nan Laur. CGC-SL-07{Both here and elsewhere the meaning of the name is explained by reference to the golden mallorn-trees of Lothlórien; but they were brought there by Galadriel (for the story of their origin see p.176), and in another, later, discussion the}The name Lórinand is said to have been itself a transformation, … It may be noted that Treebeard interpreted Lothlórien as 'Dream-flower.'CGC-SL-09{"
In "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn" I have retained the name Lórinand throughout, although when it was written Lórinand was intended as the original and ancient Nandorin name of the region, and the story of the introduction of the mallorns by Galadriel had not yet been devised.}] This was peopled by those Elves who forsook the Great Journey of the Eldar from Cuiviénen and settled in the woods of the Vale of Anduin CGC-SL-10{ [The Silmarillion p.94]}; and it extended into the forests on both sides of the Great River including the region where afterwards was Dol Guldur. These Elves had no princes or rulers, and led their lives free of care while all Morgoth's power was concentrated in the North-west of Middle-earth; CGC-SL-11{6} CGC-SL-12{"}but many Sindar and Noldor came to dwell among them, … Galadriel, striving to counteract the machinations of Sauron, was successful in Lórinand; while in Lindon Gil-galad shut out Sauron's emissaries and even Sauron himself CGC-SL-13{[as is more fully reported in Of Rings of Power (The Silmarillion p. 287)]}. But Sauron had better fortune with the Noldor of Eregion and especially with Celebrimbor, who desired in his heart to rival the skill and fame of Fëanor. CGC-SL-14{ [The cozening of the smiths of Eregion by Sauron, and his giving himself the name Annatar, Lord of Gifts, is told in Of the Rings of Power, but there is there no mention of Galadriel].}
In Eregion Sauron posed as an emissary of the Valar, sent by them to Middle-earth ({"}thus anticipating the Istari{"}) or ordered by them to remain there to give aid to the Elves. … with outward patience and courtesy. CGC-SL-15{[}No explanation is offered in this rapid outline of why Galadriel scorned Sauron, unless she saw through his disguise, or of why, if she did perceive his true nature, she permitted him to remain in Eregion.{]}[Footnote to the text: CGC-SL-16{In an isolated and undateable note it is said that although}Although the name Sauron is used earlier than this in the Tale of Years, … towards the end of the eighth century (about the time when he established the haven of Vinyalondë CGC-SL-17{, p.185}). But it had no known centre. … and a fair name: Artano "high-smith," or Aulendil, meaning one who is devoted to the service of the Vala Aulë. CGC-SL-18{ (In Of the Rings of Power, p. 287, the name that Sauron gave to himself at this time was Annatar, the Lord of Gifts; but that name is not mentioned here.) The note goes on to say that} Galadriel was not deceived, saying that this Aulendil was not in the train of Aulë in Valinor, {"}but this is not decisive, since Aulë existed before the 'Building of Arda', and the probability is that Sauron was in fact one of the Aulëan Maiar, corrupted 'before Arda began' by Melkor. CGC-SL-19{" With this compare the opening sentences in Of the Rings of Power: "Of old there was Sauron the Maia. ...In the beginning of Arda Melkor seduced him to his allegiance."}] Sauron used all his arts upon Celebrimbor and his fellow-smiths, who had formed a society or brotherhood, very powerful in Eregion, the Gwaith-i-Mírdain; but he worked in secret, unknown to Galadriel and Celeborn. Before long Sauron had the Gwaith-i-Mírdain under his influence, for at first they had great profit from his instruction in secret matters of their craft.[Footnote to the text: CGC-SL-20{In a letter written in September 1954 my father said: "}At the beginning of the Second Age {he [}Sauron{]} was still beautiful to look at, … is also symbolized by their special friendship with the Dwarves of Moria.{"}] So great became his hold on the Mírdain … passed through Khazad-dûm to Lórinand, taking with her CGC-SL-21{Amroth and }Celebrían; but Celeborn would not enter the mansions of the Dwarves, and he remained behind in Eregion, disregarded by Celebrimbor. In Lórinand Galadriel took up rule, and defence against Sauron.>

Some comments to editing:

BY-HL-08: That title might not be perfect for what is to follow, but it is the one Tolkien gave to what I used as the main source, and thus be necessity the text is a bit focused on the pair.

CGC-SL-01: I take up the text where I left it in the chapter The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves

CGC-SL-02, CGC-SL-03, CGC-SL-09, CGC-SL-10, CGC-SL-13, CGC-SL-14, CGC-SL-17, CGC-SL-18, CGC-SL-019: A Comment of Christopher Tolkien removed.

CGC-SL-04: This 3 paragraphs from Of the Rings of Power where even referred to by Christopher Tolkien as a fuller description of how Sauron cozened the Noldor of Eregion.

CGC-SL-05: Back to Concerning Galadirel and Celeborn

CGC-SL-06: Even so this note is not given as quote, we should include the information.

CGC-SL-07: This part of the note is to much an editorial speak as to keep it.

CGC-SL-08: I am not sure if this quotation marks should be removed. Are they separating Christopher Tolkiens text from quote of the original text of his father or were they as others in this not marking a kind of ‘meaning’ for the elvish word?

CGC-SL-11: A footnote with a comment of Christopher Tolkien removed.

CGC-SL-12: Here the quotation marks have to go, since they separate a quote from JRR Tolkiens original text from the reconstruction of Christopher.

CGC-SL-15: Here I expact that ArcusCalion will disagree with my treatment of the text. I lifted a kind of comment of Christopher into the main text, making it a comment of the supposed in legend author or editor.

CGC-SL-16: Equally if we take the passage under CGC-SL-015 we should include this note. And I think this is the right place for it.

CGC-SL-20: If this footnote of Christopher should be keep as a footnote or not might be discussed, but since the text is originally JRR Tolkiens we do not have the authorial problem that we faced with the famous Yavanna as a tree footnote.

CGC-SL-21: Since Amroth is in our version not the son of Galadriel, she should not take him with her on this journey (I would rather expect that she could meet him in Lórinand). This passage shows as well, that Celebrian was already born, either near lake Nenuial or in Eregion.
I would also like to discuss here the idea of gondowe to mention Galadriels earlier visits in the course of her journey in the first age. I agree that the Nandor in the vale of Anduin were the most probable destination of that journey, but we do not have any prove. We have a good hint, that she crossed Hitheaglir, and therefore we included that in the earlier chapter. But in the case of an earlier visit to Lórien, I would rather give the reader the freeness to combine that form himself.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Firstly, In my version of the story, I placed the second part of the Elessar text at the very beginning of this chapter. This may not be the best place for it, but there are few other places it can go. The only other chapter where we could place it is in Of the Rings of Power but this may be difficult, considering that most of the chapter is consumed with the war in Eriador. Thus, I placed it here at the beginning. Did you place it elsewhere Fin?

CGC-SL-08: I would remove the quotations. They are certainly not describing the meaning of the word, so there is no reason to keep them.

CGC-SL-15: You are correct, I disagree wholeheartedly. This is CT speculating about the motivations of a character based on his father's text, and we have no right to assign his personal speculations to our in-universe narrator. I would remove the comment entirely.

CGC-SL-18: I Actually edited this a bit differently, to keep the name Annatar:

... Istari and a fair name: Artano ‘high-smith,’ or Aulendil, meaning one who is devoted to the service of the Vala Aulë{.}, CGC-SL-17.5 {(In Of the Rings of Power, p. 287, the name that Sauron gave to himself at this time was}and Annatar, the Lord of Gifts {; but that name is not mentioned here.)}. CGC-SL-18 {The note goes on to say that} Galadriel ....

This is simply to match with the quote given above that the name he took was Annatar.

CGC-SL-20: I like this footnote, I think it is worth keeping.

CGC-SL-21: I agree about the Amroth deletion, but II am confused about your statement about telling more of her journeys. Why do we need to? Where is this information coming from?

[Findegil]

About the Elessar: If this second tale about the Elessar is to be taken up at all, then the place for it is exactly where you point it to be. So even if I have some doubt about taking it up at all, I would like to see your editing it into the text and edits you made in the text. I think I have to re-read our discussion in the Earendil chapter, to remember what we said their about the two versions and specially about the ‘first’ Elessar and Enerdhil.

CGC-SL-15: Okay we will remove commenting the part of the text. But I think we agree to keep the footnote under CGC-SL-16 to CGC-SL-19.

CGC-SL-18: I don’t feel that the addition of Anatar here as absolutely necessary, but I am okay with it.

CGC-SL-21: My remark was based on gondowe’s posting in the thread about Galadriel and Celeborn:

But turning to the movements of G and C. Evidently they are very difficult to follow, but the temporal line of Findegil, is, for me, correct.

And for the first age could be inserted in the texts, in my opinion, with few alterations.
-First using a alter in the sentence in Of the realms of Beleriand stated above.
-Second inserting at the end of OtRoD a sentence that Celeborn escaped from its ruin.
-Third at the end of the QS in the subsection Of the passing of the Elves inserting a compilation of the K text of Findegil... and there only with an invented clarification of few words that previously Celeborn had returned to Doriath (for me is the only way and so I had done it.)
-Then in the Second age, when Galadriel is said that contacted with Lindorinand clarificate with a sentence from Findegil's text D (I think) that she had passed across the mountains before the end of the first age.

Especially the last sentence in the quote trigged my remark. The text D that gondowe mentioned must be a mistake (see his own doubts), because text D is the story of Galadriels independent ship journey from Valinor. But nonetheless we agreed in that thread that Galadriels remark in LotR about crossing the mountains before the fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin was most naturally interpreted as meaning the Hithaeglir, since that where the mountains that the Hobbits had just crossed. Tacking the circumstances of that sentence farther into account the most natural destination for this journey in the first age in which Galadriel crossed the Hithaeglir would be Lórien (and exactly in that way the sentence was meant, when JRR Tolkien wrote it, but the back story later changed drastically.)
Howsoever I think we agree that no such remark as gondowe wished to include is wanted in our version.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Here is how I edited the Elessar, which I think we should give, since we have no reason to leave it out. We all agreed that the version with Olorin was not correct, and that the version of Celebrimbor was to be taken up. Therefore I have done so with some minor edits:

CGC-SL-00.5 <GC Elessar Long ago, ere Sauron deluded the smiths of Eregion, Galadriel CGC-SL-00.6 {came there, and she} said to Celebrimbor, the chief of the Elven-smiths: ‘I am grieved in Middle-earth, for leaves fall and flowers fade that I have loved, so that the land of my dwelling is filled with regret that no Spring can redress.’
‘How otherwise can it be for the Eldar, if they cling to Middle-earth?’ said Celebrimbor. ‘Will you then pass over Sea?’
‘Nay,’ she said. ‘Angrod is gone, and Aegnor is gone, and Felagund is no more. Of Finarfin's children I am the last. But my heart is still proud. What wrong did the golden house of Finarfin do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content with an isle in the sea whose native land was Aman the Blessed? Here I am mightier.’
‘What would you then?’ said Celebrimbor.
‘I would have trees and grass about me that do not die – here in the land that is mine,’ she answered. ‘What has become of the skill of the Eldar?’ And Celebrimbor said: ‘Where now is the Stone of Eärendil? And Enerdhil who made it is gone.’
‘They have passed over Sea,’ said Galadriel, ‘with almost all fair things else. But must then Middle-earth fade and perish for ever?’
‘That is its fate, I deem,’ said Celebrimbor. ‘But you know that I love you (though you turned to Celeborn of the Trees), and for that love I will do what I can, if haply by my art your grief can be lessened.’ CGC-SL-00.7 {But he did not say to Galadriel that be himself was of Gondolin long ago, and a friend of Enerdhil, though his friend in most things outrivalled him. Yet if Enerdhil had not been then Celebrimbor would have been renowned.} Therefore he took thought, and began a long delicate labour, and so for Galadriel he made the greatest of his works (save the Three Rings only). And it is said that more subtle and clear was the green gem that he made than that of Enerdhil, but yet its light had less power. For whereas that of Enerdhil was lit by the Sun in its youth, already many years had passed ere Celebrimbor began his work, and nowhere in Middle-earth was the light as clear as it had been, for though Morgoth had been thrust out into the Void and could not enter again, his far shadow lay upon it. Radiant nonetheless was the Elessar of Celebrimbor; and he set it within a great brooch of silver in the likeness of an eagle rising upon outspread wings. Wielding the Elessar all things grew fair about Galadriel, until the coming of the Shadow to CGC-SL-00.8 {the Forest}[Eregion].>

CGC-SL-00.5: This is where the text begins for me, since we are not taking up the part where the ambiguity is introduced.
CGC-SL-00.6: At this point in the narrative she is already living there.
CGC-SL-00.7: Since in our version Celebrimbor is not an elf of Gondolin, this must be removed.
CGC-SL-00.8: At this point Galadriel is living in Eregion, as it must be. When she is living in Lorien, Celebrimbor is dead or estranged from her, so it cannot be at that time. Therefore I changed forest to Eregion, since that is where she was dwelling.

CGC-SL-15: I agree to all those footnotes, yes.

CGC-SL-21: I think that it is best to leave it ambiguous, since we do not need to invent narratives to explain things when we can simply leave it up to the deduction of the reader.

[Galin]

Hmm, for me, a major factor regarding the Elessar Text is that it presents two internal variations, neither of which is known to be correct by anyone in Middle-earth. Again, I'm not wholly familiar with the guidelines here, but whatever they are, this seems to me to be a step beyond. To my mind it would be similar to saying the form Galadhriel is "incorrect" and therefore should not be represented anywhere in your text...

... when the idea is obviously that it is "incorrect" in some sense, but from an internal perspective it's easily acceptable, with internal reasons given.

In my opinion these sort of obscurities and purposed variations represent Tolkien's art of world-building -- with the natural confusions or variations that (he thinks) might arise. I think they were important to him. For me they are the added "pepper" to the soup of consistency, echoing certain real world "textual scenarios", so to speak.

[Findegil]

Posted by ArcusCalion:

We all agreed that the version with Olorin was not correct, and that the version of Celebrimbor was to be taken up.

Re-rading the thread “Celebrimbor” I don’t think that we came to this conclusion. But nonetheless the story of Celebrimbor making the second Elessar should be included. But the questions remain open for me if he was also the smith of the first and if the story of Olorin bringing the stone back is really out. Both have of course some implications on the edit of this part of the Elessar story here. So probably we should resume the discussion in that thread first.
However we might decide on this, working with the integration of the Elessar text I found some other nice variants for the edit of this chapter. So let’s first clear the Elessar issue and then discuss here farther.

I fully agree to Galins argument.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I would love to hear the alternate ideas you have for including the alternate versions.

[Findegil]

Okay, as the discussion about the Elessar in the thread ‘Celebrimbor’ has made some success. I will post here my alternative arrangement of the texts:

BY-HL-08<Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn
>CGC-SL-00.2<Of the Rings of Power Seeing the desolation of the world, Sauron said in his heart that the Valar, having overthrown Morgoth, had again forgotten Middle-earth; ... concealed the dark designs that he shaped in his heart.
Men he found the easiest to sway ... his hue was still that of one both fair and wise.> CGC-SL-01<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn
The building of the chief city of Eregion, Ost-in-Edhil, was begun in about the year 750 of the Second Age CGC-SL-02{ [the date that is given in the Tale of Years for the founding of Eregion by the Noldor]}. News of these things came to the ears of Sauron, ... came himself, wearing the fairest form that he could contrive.
CGC-SL-05 But in the meantime the power of Galadriel and Celeborn had grown, and Galadriel, assisted in this by her friendship with the Dwarves of Moria, had come into contact with the Nandorin realm of Lórinand on the other side of the Misty Mountains.[Footnote to the text: CGC-SL-06{In a note to the text it is explained that }Lórinand was the Nandorin name of this region (afterwards called Lórien and Lothlórien), and contained the Elvish word meaning "golden light": "valley of gold." The Quenya form would be Laurenandë, the Sindarin Glornan or Nan Laur. CGC-SL-07{Both here and elsewhere the meaning of the name is explained by reference to the golden mallorn-trees of Lothlórien; but they were brought there by Galadriel (for the story of their origin see p.176), and in another, later, discussion the}The name Lórinand is said to have been itself a transformation, ... an overwhelming regret."
Lórien itself was originally the Quenya name of a region in Valinor, often used as the name of the Vala (Irmo) to whom it belonged; CGC-SL-08{"}a place of rest and shadowy trees ... It may be noted that Treebeard interpreted Lothlórien as 'Dream-flower.'CGC-SL-09{"
In "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn" I have retained the name Lórinand throughout, although when it was written Lórinand was intended as the original and ancient Nandorin name of the region, and the story of the introduction of the mallorns by Galadriel had not yet been devised.}] This was peopled by those Elves who forsook the Great Journey of the Eldar from Cuiviénen and settled in the woods of the Vale of Anduin CGC-SL-10{ [The Silmarillion p.94]}; and it extended into the forests on both sides of the Great River including the region where afterwards was Dol Guldur. These Elves had no princes or rulers, and led their lives free of care while all Morgoth's power was concentrated in the North-west of Middle-earth; CGC-SL-11{6} CGC-SL-12{"}but many Sindar and Noldor came to dwell among them, and their 'Sindarizing' under the impact of Beleriandic culture began.{"} It is not made clear when this movement into Lórinand took place; it may be that they came from Eregion by way of Khazad-dûm and under the auspices of Galadriel.>CGC-SL-00.1 < The history of Galadriel and Celeborn; The Elessar
In ages after there was again an Elessar, and of this two things are said, though which is true only those Wise could say who now are gone. For some say that ... she longed for news of her kin and for the blessed land of her birth, CGC-SL-00.2{and yet was unwilling to forsake Middle-earth [this sentence was changed to read:} but was not permitted yet to forsake Middle-earth{]}. And when Olórin had told her many tidings she sighed, ... Then Olórin said: "Would you then have the Elessar?"
And Galadriel said: "Where now is the Stone of Eärendil? CGC-SL-00.3{ And Enerdhil is gone who made it.}" ... all who cling to it are under a shadow."
"It is not so," said Olórin. "Their eyes are not dimmed ... Elessar he shall be called." CGC-SL-00.4{(19)}
CGC-SL-00.5b The other tale runs so: that long ago, ere Sauron deluded the smiths of Eregion, Galadriel CGC-SL-00.6b came there, and she said to Celebrimbor, ... that no Spring can redress."
"How otherwise can it be for the Eldar, if they cling to Middle-earth?" said Celebrimbor. "Will you then pass over Sea?"
"Nay," she said. "Angrod is gone, and Aegnor is gone, and Felagund is no more. Of Finarfin's children I am the last. CGC-SL-00.65{(20)} But my heart is still proud. ... Here I am mightier."
"What would you then?" said Celebrimbor.
"I would have trees and grass ... And Celebrimbor said: "Where now is the Stone of Eärendil? CGC-SL-00.67{And Enerdhil who made it is gone.}" "They have passed over Sea," said Galadriel, "with almost all fair things else. But must then Middle-earth fade and perish for ever?"
"That is its fate, I deem," said Celebrimbor. ... But he did not say to Gala¬driel that he himself CGC-SL-00.7b <editorial addition based on the Endnote to The Elessar {The Elessar was made in Gondolin by Celebrimbor, and so came to Idril and so to Eärendil. But that passed away.}>{was of Gondolin}had long ago{, and a friend of Enerdhil, though his friend in most things outrivalled him. Yet if Enerdhil had not been then Celebrimbor would have been renowned} /made the Elessar for Idril, that had passed away with Eärendil/. Therefore he took thought, and began a long delicate labour, and so for Galadriel he made the great¬est of his works (save the Three Rings only). And it is said that more subtle and clear was the green gem that he made than that of CGC-SL-00.73{Enerdhil}[old], but yet its light had less power. For whereas that of CGC-SL-00.75{Enerdhil}[old] was lit by the Sun in its youth, ... in the likeness of an eagle rising upon outspread wings. CGC-SL-00.77{(21)} Wielding the Elessar all things grew fair about Galadriel, until the coming of the Shadow to CGC-SL-00.8b the Forest. But afterwards when Nenya, chief of the Three, CGC-SL-00.85{(22)} was sent to her by Celebrimbor, she needed it (as she thought) no more, and she gave it to Celebrían her daughter, and so it came to Arwen and to Aragorn who was called Elessar.
CGC-SL-12.5<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn Galadriel, striving to counteract the machinations of Sauron, was successful in Lórinand; while in Lindon Gil-galad shut out Sauron's emissaries and even Sauron himself CGC-SL-13b{ [as is more fully reported in Of Rings of Power (The Silmarillion p. 287)].}> CGC-SL-04b<Of the Rings of Power {Only to Lindon he did not come}, for Gil-galad and Elrond doubted him and his fair-seeming, ... knowledge which those have who are beyond the Sea?'
It was in Eregion that ... for his knowledge was great.>CGC-SL-13.5<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn
{But}Thus Sauron had better fortune then in Lindon with the Noldor of Eregion and especially with Celebrimbor, who desired in his heart to rival the skill and fame of Fëanor. CGC-SL-14{ [The cozening of the smiths of Eregion by Sauron, and his giving himself the name Annatar, Lord of Gifts, is told in Of the Rings of Power, but there is there no mention of Galadriel].}
In Eregion Sauron posed as an emissary of the Valar, sent by them to Middle-earth ({"}thus anticipating the Istari{"}) or ordered by them ... bearing her scorn with outward patience and courtesy. CGC-SL-15{[No explanation is offered in this rapid outline of why Galadriel scorned Sauron, unless she saw through his disguise, or of why, if she did perceive his true nature, she permitted him to remain in Eregion.]}[Footnote to the text: CGC-SL-16{In an isolated and undateable note it is said that although}Although the name Sauron is used earlier than this in the Tale of Years, … (about the time when he established the haven of Vinyalondë CGC-SL-17{, p.185}). But it had no known centre. … and a fair name: Artano "high-smith," or Aulendil, meaning one who is devoted to the service of the Vala Aulë CGC-SL-17.5{. (In Of the Rings of Power, p. 287, the name that Sauron gave to himself at this time was} , and Annatar, the Lord of Gifts. CGC-SL-18{; but that name is not mentioned here.) The note goes on to say that} Galadriel was not deceived, … corrupted 'before Arda began' by Melkor. CGC-SL-19{" With this compare the opening sentences in Of the Rings of Power: "Of old there was Sauron the Maia. ...In the beginning of Arda Melkor seduced him to his allegiance."}] Sauron used all his arts upon Celebrimbor and his fellow-smiths, ... for at first they had great profit from his instruction in secret matters of their craft.[Footnote to the text: CGC-SL-20{In a letter written in September 1954 my father said: "}At the beginning of the Second Age {he [}Sauron{]} was still beautiful to look at, … is also symbolized by their special friendship with the Dwarves of Moria.{"}]> CGC-SL-04c<Of the Rings of Power In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.> CGC-SL-20.5<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn So great became {his}Saurons hold on the Mírdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion; and that was at some time between 1350 and 1400 of the Second Age. Galadriel thereupon left Eregion and passed through Khazad-dûm to Lórinand, taking with her CGC-SL-21{Amroth and }Celebrían; but Celeborn would not enter the mansions of the Dwarves, and he remained behind in Eregion, disregarded by Celebrimbor. In Lórinand Galadriel took up rule, and defence against Sauron.>

Some comments:
CGC-SL-00.2: This is the first part of what had been CGC-SL-04. To better bind the text together I had to change more often between the one and the other. Thus we have here now Saurons overall motive first.
CGC-SL-01: After the overall motive here the special news making Sauron adapt his plans.
CGC-SL-05: I left that editing marker in, but really the text oft he source is contiuos between CGC-SL-01 and CGC-SL-05.
CGC-SL-00.1: Here I would enter the story oft he Elessar returned or made anew. As we have just mentioned Galadriels intensivied contacts with Lórinand and explained that that relam extended into the woods among Amon Lanc (Later Dol Guldur), it seems natural that the meeting of Galadriel with Olórin could have been in Greenwood at that time or that Galadriel would come back to Eregion to speak to Celebrimbor.
CGC-SL-00.3, CGC-SL-00.67, CGC-SL-00.7b, CGC-SL-00.73 and CGC-SL-00.75: As we decided to make Celebrimbor the maker of the first Elessar we have adapt our text here accordingly.
CGC-SL-00.8b: Since in my editing Galadriel has just been to Lórinand which includes the later Dol Guldur and I will take up that about for a time in the next used source text, I think that the sentence can be used.
CGC-SL-12.5: Here we come back to Galadriels successful mission to Lórinand, getting influence and counteracting Sauron (or the center of ill will against the Eldar observed by her as coming from the east).
CGC-SL-13b: Now her is what gave rise to the idea of a different placement of the texts.
CGC-SL-04b: Now this exactly the fuller tale of how Sauron was rejected in Lindon. It was part of CGC-SL-04 in my first editing.
CGC-SL-04c: This I have now moved farther down, but I still think that they should start the making before they revolt against Galadriel, because the secrets of craft provided by Sauron for the rings of power are a good motive for the Mírdain to come under Saurons influence. The text was as well part of CGC-SL-04 in the first editing.
CGC-SL-20.5: The marking is just to introduce the source information since I wanted to avoid an insert into an insert.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

This new draft actually looks quite excellent! I have only a few very minor (mostly grammatical) changes to suggest:

I think the tales of the Elessar seem to begin rather abruptly. Perhaps we should add in the subheading from their origin: BY-HL-08.5 <the Elessar The Elessar>. This would help separate the specific tale from the rest of the chapter. After the second version finishes, we could also add in a break before the text resumes, to set it apart.

CGC-SL-00.3: Galadriel's response to Olorin's question needs minor revision, thus:

And Galadriel said: ‘Where now is the Stone of Eärendil? CGC-SL-00.3 {And Enerdhil is gone who made it.}’ ‘Who knows?’ said Olórin. ‘Surely,’ said Galadriel, ‘{they have}it has passed over Sea

She cannot say "they have" since our removal of Enerdhil has caused there to be only one thing mentioned.

CGC-SL-00.67: This is the same exact change as the one I suggested above, but for the second version of the tale.

CGC-SL-00.7b: I think the entire bit should be removed. If Galadriel knew about the Elessar, how could she not know who made it? In the version as written she knew who had made it, so why should we change that? I simply removed it thus:

CGC-SL-00.7b {But he did not say to Galadriel that be himself was of Gondolin long ago, and a friend of Enerdhil, though his friend in most things outrivalled him. Yet if Enerdhil had not been then Celebrimbor would have been renowned.}

This way we also have to take less liberty with inventing new sentences.

CGC-SL-13.5: I do not think the 'than in Lindon' is necessary, since we already say 'with the Noldor of Eregion,' and in fact adding in the bit about Lindon makes the sentence sound awkward. I think it is best to leave it out.

CGC-SL-20.5: I do not think we need to specify 'Sauron's' here, since we refer to him in the previous sentence.

[Findegil]

BY-HL-08.2 & BY-HL-08.4: As ArcusCalion I as well found the change of subject at the beginning of the Elessar abrupt. So I agree to take up the headline, but then we have to put another one at the end of the Elessar stuff. And since we don’t have any good text for it, this can only be an editorial addition of ‘* * *’.

CGC-SL-00.3 & CGC-SL-00.67: Thanks for catching these!

CGC-SL-00.7c: I agree, you approach is much safer than mine. But I will call the complete removal CGC-SL-00.7c, following the old agreement that letters nominate different variants of the same change.

CGC-SL-13.5: Okay, reading the sentence same time after changing it, I agree that it reads awkward. We leave the addition of ‘than in Lindon’ out.

CGC-SL-20.5: Agreed, this might have been an artefact of shifting around passages.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Looks like another successful chapter!

[gandalf85]

First of all, I just wanted to say that you guys have done an impressive amount of work collecting together all of the writings about a particular subject and an incredible job in preparing these chapters. I feel kind of bad since you guys have done 99% of the work, and I'm basically just nitpicking. That being said, here are my comments:

1) In the second paragraph (I have bolded the section I wish to discuss):

CGC-SL-01<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn
The building of the chief city of Eregion, Ost-in-Edhil, was begun in about the year 750 of the Second Age CGC-SL-02{ [the date that is given in the Tale of Years for the founding of Eregion by the Noldor]}. News of these things came to the ears of Sauron, and increased the fears that he felt concerning the coming of the Númenóreans to Lindon and the coasts further south, and their friendship with Gil-galad ...

In UT, "these things" is referring to the founding of Eregion, the friendship of the Elves of Eregion and the Dwarves of Khazad-dum and the building of Ost-in-Edhil. In this draft, the only one of these that is mentioned is the building of Ost-in-Edhil. Therefore I propose the change:

CGC-SL-01<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn
The building of the chief city of Eregion, Ost-in-Edhil, was begun in about the year 750 of the Second Age CGC-SL-02{ [the date that is given in the Tale of Years for the founding of Eregion by the Noldor]}. News of {these things} this came to the ears of Sauron, and increased the fears that he felt concerning the coming of the Númenóreans to Lindon and the coasts further south, and their friendship with Gil-galad ...

2) Is there a consistent rule on when Elvish words are italicized? It seems that they are italicized when there is a discussion of the origins/etymology of the word itself. If so, then the draft I received from ArcusCalion should have a few more words in the footnote of the third paragraph italicized: namely Lórinand, Lindórinand and Lothlórien.

3) Even with a sub-heading and a break at the end, the "Elessar" section still feels really out of place. Even though it seems to be in the right place in text in terms of timeline, it really has no bearing on the events later in the chapter. It is abrupt to go from Sauron to the Elessar and back to Saruon. I propose we put "Elessar" at the end of the section; it contains a few references to her using the Elessar to make the land fair around her, and I think this fits after her taking up rule in Lórinand. In addition, I think this part of the "Elessar" text:

The other tale runs so: that long ago, ere Sauron deluded the smiths of Eregion

fits better after the discussion of Sauron deluding the smiths of Eregion.

4) I propose a re-ordering of the texts to make it flow better. There is a mention of Sauron being named Annatar early on, then later in the draft it describes the names he took and explains what Annatar means again. The idea that Sauron anticipates the Istari is espressed twice at two different points. I propose the following (the parts I have added are in bold):

CGC-SL-12.5 <CG Galadriel, striving to counteract the machinations of Sauron, was successful in Lórinand; while in Lindon Gil-galad shut out Sauron's emissaries and even Sauron himself CGC-SL-13b {[as is more fully reported in Of Rings of Power (The Silmarillion p. 287)]}> CGC-SL-04b <ORP {Only to Lindon he did not come} , for Gil-galad and Elrond doubted him and his fair-seeming, and though they knew not who in truth he was they would not admit him to that land. But elsewhere the Elves received him gladly, and few among them hearkened to the messengers from Lindon bidding them beware; for Sauron {took to himself the name of Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, he} adopted a specious fair form{, a kind of simulated anticipation of the later Istari} and a fair name: Artano ‘high-smith,’ or Aulendil, meaning one who is devoted to the service of the Vala Aulë{.}[,] CGC-SL-17.5 {(In Of the Rings of Power, p. 287, the name that Sauron gave to himself at this time was}[and] Annatar, the Lord of Gifts {; but that name is not mentioned here.)}. CGC-SL-18 {The note goes on to say that} {In Eregion} {Sauron} He posed as an emissary of the Valar, sent by them to Middle-earth (thus anticipating the Istari) or ordered by them to remain there to give aid to the Elves. Galadriel was not deceived, saying that this Aulendil was not in the train of Aulë in Valinor, but this is not decisive, since Aulë existed before the 'Building of Arda,' and the probability is that Sauron was in fact one of the Aulëan Maiar, corrupted 'before Arda began' by Melkor. CGC-SL-19 {"With this compare the opening sentences in Of the Rings of Power: "Of old there was Sauron the Maia. ...In the beginning of Arda Melkor seduced him to his allegiance."}] {for Sauron took to himself the name of Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, and they} They had at first much profit from his friendship...

Everything related to Sauron's fair form, fair names and him being an emissary of the Valar is grouped together. This better sets up why the elves of Eregion trust him. I also think this re-ordering helps a later section flows better (the parts I have removed are in bold):

The mysterious power of hostility, to Elves and Edain, was perceived soon after the year 500, and among the Númenóreans first by Aldarion towards the end of the eighth century (about the time when he established the haven of Vinyalondë CGC-SL-17 {, p.185)}. But it had no known centre, for Sauron endeavoured to keep distinct his two sides: enemy and tempter. When he came among the Noldor he adopted a specious fair form, a kind of simulated anticipation of the later Istari and a fair name: Artano ‘high-smith,’ or Aulendil, meaning one who is devoted to the service of the Vala Aulë{.}[,] CGC-SL-17.5 {(In Of the Rings of Power, p. 287, the name that Sauron gave to himself at this time was}[and] Annatar, the Lord of Gifts {; but that name is not mentioned here.)}. CGC-SL-18 {The note goes on to say that} Galadriel was not deceived, saying that this Aulendil was not in the train of Aulë in Valinor, but this is not decisive, since Aulë existed before the 'Building of Arda,' and the probability is that Sauron was in fact one of the Aulëan Maiar, corrupted 'before Arda began' by Melkor. CGC-SL-19 {"With this compare the opening sentences in Of the Rings of Power: "Of old there was Sauron the Maia. ...In the beginning of Arda Melkor seduced him to his allegiance."}] {Sauron} He used all his arts upon Celebrimbor and his fellow-smiths, who had formed a society or brotherhood, very powerful in Eregion, the Gwaith-i-Mírdain

I think "[the hostility] had no known centre" flows well into Celebrimbor forming the Gwaith-i-Mirdain since it sets up why he trusts Sauron.

[ArcusCalion]

1) That is a very good point, and I myself agree to the change.

2) There is no general rule (so far) for italicizing words. But you are right that in this case they probably should be. All the italicization is taken directly from the source texts atm, but we should probably discuss a standard. Your idea is good, I think, that in the context of linguistic discussion the Elvish should be italicized.

3) The reason the Elessar is placed there, is that the alternative tale is said to take place 'ere Sauron deceived the smiths of Eregion' which would mean that it can't take place at the end of the chapter.

4) I actually like this, for me it flows a bit better and makes more sense. However, the text you've taken is from a footnote, which we don't always pull into the body of the text. I think the text reads well enough as it is, but perhaps Findegil could weigh in.

[Findegil]

First and foremost: We love it when folks are nitpicking our work. If theories uttered here go unchallenged they are either very obvious or no big accomplishment. And if there would be no exchange of arguments the work would be boring. So do not have any bad feelings and please go on nitpicking!

1) You are of course right, but I would like to solve the issue differently, since I think the broader reference of the original has some important impact here:

CGC-SL-01<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn
The building of the chief city of Eregion, Ost-in-Edhil, was begun in about the year 750 of the Second Age CGC-SL-02b{ [the date that is given in the Tale of Years for the founding of Eregion by the Noldor]}. News of {these things}this and the friendship of the Elves of Eregion and the Dwraves of Khazad-dûm came to the ears of Sauron, and increased the fears that he felt concerning the coming of the Númenóreans to Lindon and the coasts further south, and their friendship with Gil-galad; ...

2) No up to this point we used the italicisation as we found it in the source text, or that is what we tried to do. As we oft work from scans, such things might go amiss. I have to consult the original bocks in this case.
3) Okay, I agree to put The Elessar to the end of this chapter, this is a good idea.
4) Well, I have no objection of lifting the content of the footnote 7 into the main text, since the footnote is Christopher Tolkien’s way to give us the content of an ‘isolated note’. Thus we have not omly two text’s to deal with but three (which is good). But I have a few issues with gandalf85’s draft.
- In Sil77, The Rings of Power is made a difference: first it is reported that ‘long he sought to persuade the Elves to his service, for he knew that the Firstborn had the greater power; and he went far and wide among them‘. Then we hear that he was rejected in Lindon. ‘But elsewhere the Elves received him gladly, and few among them hearkened to the messengers from Lindon bidding them beware; for Sauron took to himself the name of Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, and they had at first much profit from his friendship. …’ leading to Saurons argument about Gil-galad and Elrond being jealous. Only after that we are told of his being most successful in Eregion.
In Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn we hear that ‘Galadriel, striving to counteract the machinations of Sauron, was successful in Lórinand‘. Thus it is clear that it was not only Lindon and Eregion that Sauron tried to befriend. I think we should keep that distinction.
And with that also we might keep the separate names, as his name in the attempt at Lindon ans elsewhere was probably Annatar, while in Eregion he named himself Artano or Aulendil.
- I am sorry, I tried hard but I could not make out how the text in between the two quotes given by gandalf85 should look like. Actually the second quote starts in the middle of what has been a footnote in my draft. My be we should give that chapter a complete new go:

Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn
>CGC-SL-00.2<Of the Rings of Power Seeing the desolation of the world, Sauron said in his heart that the Valar, having overthrown Morgoth, had again forgotten Middle-earth; and his pride grew apace. He looked with hatred on the Eldar, and he feared the Men of Númenor who came back at whiles in their ships to the shores of Middle-earth; but for long he dissembled his mind and concealed the dark designs that he shaped in his heart.
Men he found the easiest to sway of all the peoples of the Earth; but long he sought to persuade the Elves to his service, for he knew that the Firstborn had the greater power{; and he went far and wide among them, and his hue was still that of one both fair and wise}.> CGC-SL-00.5<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn, Note 7 <CGC-SL-16{In an isolated and undateable note it is said that although}Although the name Sauron is used earlier than this in the Tale of Years, his name, implying identity with the great lieutenant of Morgoth in The Silmarillion, was not actually known until about the year 1600 of the Second Age, the time of the forging of the One Ring. The mysterious power of hostility, to Elves and Edain, was perceived soon after the year 500, and among the Númenóreans first by Aldarion towards the end of the eighth century (about the time when he established the haven of Vinyalondë CGC-SL-17{, p.185}). But it had no known centre. Sauron endeavoured to keep distinct his two sides: enemy and tempter.> CGC-SL-01<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn
The building of the chief city of Eregion, Ost-in-Edhil, was begun in about the year 750 of the Second Age CGC-SL-02{ [the date that is given in the Tale of Years for the founding of Eregion by the Noldor]}. News of {these things}this and the friendship of the Elves of Eregion and the Dwraves of Khazad-dûm came to the ears of Sauron, and increased the fears that he felt concerning the coming of the Númenóreans to Lindon and the coasts further south, and their friendship with Gil-galad; and he heard tell also of Aldarion, son of Tar-Meneldur the King of Númenor, now become a great shipbuilder who brought his vessels to haven far down into the Harad. Sauron therefore left Eriador alone for a while, and he chose the land of Mordor, as it was afterwards called, for a stronghold as a counter to the threat of the Númenórean landings CGC-SL-03{ [this is dated c. 1000 in the Tale of Years]}. When he felt himself to be secure he sent emissaries to Eriador, and finally, in about the year 1200 of the Second Age, came himself, wearing the fairest form that he could contrive.
CGC-SL-05 But in the meantime the power of Galadriel and Celeborn had grown, and Galadriel, assisted in this by her friendship with the Dwarves of Moria, had come into contact with the Nandorin realm of Lórinand on the other side of the Misty Mountains.[Footnote to the text: CGC-SL-06{In a note to the text it is explained that }Lórinand was the Nandorin name of this region (afterwards called Lórien and Lothlórien), and contained the Elvish word meaning "golden light": "valley of gold." The Quenya form would be Laurenandë, the Sindarin Glornan or Nan Laur. CGC-SL-07{Both here and elsewhere the meaning of the name is explained by reference to the golden mallorn-trees of Lothlórien; but they were brought there by Galadriel (for the story of their origin see p.176), and in another, later, discussion the}The name Lórinand is said to have been itself a transformation, after the introduction of the mallorns, of a yet older name Lindórinand, "Vale of the Land of the Singers." Since the Elves of this land were in origin Teleri, there is here no doubt present the name by which the Teleri called themselves, Lindar, "the Singers." From many other discussions of the names of Lothlórien, to some extent at variance among themselves, it emerges that all the later names were probably due to Galadriel herself, combining different ele¬ments: laurë "gold," nan(d) "valley," ndor "land," tin- "sing"; and in Laurelindórinan "Valley of Singing Gold" (which Treebeard told the Hobbits was the earlier name) deliberately echoing the name of the Golden Tree that grew in Valinor, "for which, as is plain, Gala¬driel's longing increased year by year to, at last, an overwhelming regret."
Lórien itself was originally the Quenya name of a region in Valinor, often used as the name of the Vala (Irmo) to whom it belonged; CGC-SL-08{"}a place of rest and shadowy trees and fountains, a re¬treat from cares and griefs.{"} The further change from Lórinand "Valley of Gold" to Lórien {"}may well be due to Galadriel herself,{"} for {"}the resemblance cannot be accidental. She had endeavoured to make Lórien a refuge and an island of peace and beauty, a memo¬rial of ancient days, but was now filled with regret and misgiving, knowing that the golden dream was hastening to a grey awakening. It may be noted that Treebeard interpreted Lothlórien as 'Dream-flower.'CGC-SL-09{"
In "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn" I have retained the name Lórinand throughout, although when it was written Lórinand was intended as the original and ancient Nandorin name of the region, and the story of the introduction of the mallorns by Galadriel had not yet been devised.}] This was peopled by those Elves who forsook the Great Journey of the Eldar from Cuiviénen and settled in the woods of the Vale of Anduin CGC-SL-10{ [The Silmarillion p.94]}; and it extended into the forests on both sides of the Great River including the region where afterwards was Dol Guldur. These Elves had no princes or rulers, and led their lives free of care while all Morgoth's power was concentrated in the North-west of Middle-earth; CGC-SL-11{6} CGC-SL-12{"}but many Sindar and Noldor came to dwell among them, and their 'Sindarizing' under the impact of Beleriandic culture began.{"} It is not made clear when this movement into Lórinand took place; it may be that they came from Eregion by way of Khazad-dûm and under the auspices of Galadriel.>
CGC-SL-12.5<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn Galadriel, striving to counteract the machinations of Sauron, was successful in Lórinand; while in Lindon Gil-galad shut out Sauron's emissaries and even Sauron himself CGC-SL-13b{ [as is more fully reported in Of Rings of Power (The Silmarillion p. 287)].}> CGC-SL-04b<Of the Rings of Power {Only to Lindon he did not come}, for Gil-galad and Elrond doubted him and his fair-seeming, and though they knew not who in truth he was they would not admit him to that land. But elsewhere the Elves received him gladly, and few among them hearkened to the messengers from Lindon bidding them beware; for Sauron took to himself the name of Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, and they had at first much profit from his friendship. And he said to them: "Alas, for the weakness of the great! For a mighty king is Gil-galad, and wise in all lore is Master Elrond, and yet they will not aid me in my labours. Can it be that they do not desire to see other lands become as blissful as their own? But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor? And since you have not returned thither, as you might, I perceive that you love this Middle-earth, as do I. Is it not then our task to labour together for its enrichment, and for the raising of all the Elven-kindreds that wander here untaught to the height of that power and knowledge which those have who are beyond the Sea?'
It was in Eregion that the counsels of Sauron were most gladly received, for in that land the Noldor desired ever to increase the skill and subtlety of their works. Moreover they were not at peace in their hearts, since they had refused to return into the West, and they desired both to stay in Middle-earth, which indeed they loved, and yet to enjoy the bliss of those that had departed. Therefore they hearkened to Sauron, and they learned of him many things, for his knowledge was great.>
CGC-SL-13.2<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn, Note 7 <When he came among the Noldor he adopted a specious fair form CGC-SL-13.2{, a kind of simulated anticipation of the later Istari} and a fair name: Artano "high-smith," or Aulendil, meaning one who is devoted to the service of the Vala Aulë. CGC-SL-17.5b{(In Of the Rings of Power, p. 287, the name that Sauron gave to himself at this time was Annatar, the Lord of Gifts; but that name is not mentioned here.) The note goes on to say that} Galadriel was not deceived, saying that this Aulendil was not in the train of Aulë in Valinor, {"}but this is not decisive, since Aulë existed before the 'Building of Arda', and the probability is that Sauron was in fact one of the Aulëan Maiar, corrupted 'before Arda began' by Melkor. CGC-SL-19{" With this compare the opening sentences in Of the Rings of Power: "Of old there was Sauron the Maia. ...In the beginning of Arda Melkor seduced him to his allegiance."}>CGC-SL-13.5<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn
But Sauron had better fortune with the Noldor of Eregion and especially with Celebrimbor, who desired in his heart to rival the skill and fame of Fëanor. CGC-SL-14{ [The cozening of the smiths of Eregion by Sauron, and his giving himself the name Annatar, Lord of Gifts, is told in Of the Rings of Power, but there is there no mention of Galadriel].}
In Eregion Sauron posed as an emissary of the Valar, sent by them to Middle-earth ({"}thus anticipating the Istari{"}) or ordered by them to remain there to give aid to the Elves. He perceived at once that Galadriel would be his chief adversary and obstacle, and he endeavoured therefore to placate her, bearing her scorn with outward patience and courtesy. CGC-SL-15{[No explanation is offered in this rapid outline of why Galadriel scorned Sauron, unless she saw through his disguise, or of why, if she did perceive his true nature, she permitted him to remain in Eregion.](7)} Sauron used all his arts upon Celebrimbor and his fellow-smiths, who had formed a society or brotherhood, very powerful in Eregion, the Gwaith-i-Mírdain; but he worked in secret, unknown to Galadriel and Celeborn. Before long Sauron had the Gwaith-i-Mírdain under his influence, for at first they had great profit from his instruction in secret matters of their craft.[Footnote to the text: CGC-SL-20{In a letter written in September 1954 my father said: "}At the beginning of the Second Age {he [}Sauron{]} was still beautiful to look at, or could still assume a beautiful visible shape – and was not indeed wholly evil, not unless all 'reformers' who want to hurry up with 'reconstruction' and 'reorganization' are wholly evil, even before pride and the lust to exert their will eat them up. The particular branch of the High Elves concerned, the Noldor or Loremasters, were always vulnerable on the side of 'science and technology,' as we should call it: they wanted to have the knowledge that Sauron genuinely had, and those of Eregion refused the warnings of Gil-galad and Elrond. The particular 'desire' of the Eregion Elves – an 'allegory' if you like of a love of machinery, and technical devices – is also symbolized by their special friendship with the Dwarves of Moria.{"}]> CGC-SL-04c<Of the Rings of Power In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.> CGC-SL-20.5<The history of Galadriel and Celeborn So great became his hold on the Mírdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion; and that was at some time between 1350 and 1400 of the Second Age. Galadriel thereupon left Eregion and passed through Khazad-dûm to Lórinand, taking with her CGC-SL-21{Amroth and }Celebrían; but Celeborn would not enter the mansions of the Dwarves, and he remained behind in Eregion, disregarded by Celebrimbor. In Lórinand Galadriel took up rule, and defence against Sauron.>

After that we will follow with the subchapter The Elessar.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I actually like this much better, nice job Fin! Only two comments:

CGC-SL-13.5: the initial 'But' should be changed to a 'Thus' to make the texts flow together more smoothly. In the old draft we did this, and I think it is worth doing again here.

CGC-SL-13.2: where it says 'and a fair name' I think we should change it to 'and other fair names' since we have already in the draft said he took the name Annatar when he went to other places (of which there are only Eregion and Lorinand) so it makes sense that he would use all three names in Eregion. But we don't need to repeat Annatar here, but I think we should acknowledge its existence as a valid name. This I think that small change is for the best.

[Findegil]

Okay, I agreed to both of ArcusCalion's suggestions.

Respectfully
Findegill

[gandalf85]

Oops, I hadn't meant to pull text from a footnote. However, I really like Findegil's latest draft and don't have any suggestions other than to agree with both of ArcusCalion's suggestions.

[ArcusCalion]

This is why nitpicking is good! It can lead to a restructure and a much better draft!

[gandalf85]

Looking through the drafts up to "Of the Rings of Power" it seems to flow nicely, but the Elessar sub-section feels jarring. There are two variants of the story. Version 1 must be in the Third Age since it involves Olorin. But version 2 is set at this point in the Second Age, so it was placed in this chapter. Since the Elessar section is very conjectural and involves two versions which take place at different times, would it make more sense to put this in Volume III: Assorted Lore?

[ArcusCalion]

Just because it involves Olorin does not mean it has to take place in the Third Age. On the contrary. Gandalf did not bring the Elessar with him to middle earth when he came in the Third Age, and we know Olorin was a friend of the Elves in Valinor, so it makes sense he would be chosen to send it as a gift to Galadriel. Both of the stories take place around the same time in our draft, and thus go quite nicely in their own little subchapter here. It is a little jarring, but it is entirely contained in its own section now, and I think it is fine this way.

[gandalf85]

I was assuming Olorin brought the Elessar when he arrived with Radagast and Saruman in TA 1000. I suppose you're right, he could have arrived earlier. Galadriel and Celeborn's movements are very complex. The text states that Olorin meets Galadriel in Greenwood. I searched and couldn't find any info about this; at what time period is Galadriel in Greenwood? If it's around this time period, then I agree that the text should stay where it is.

[Findegil]

Olorin did not come as an Istari when he probabaly brought the Elessar to Galadriel in Mirkwood. He came as Olorin the Maiar. And as Lorinand at that time included the woods on both sides of Anduin, and the time we speak about must be when she was driven out of Eregion.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

OK, that makes sense. In that case, it makes sense to keep the sub-chapter where it is.