LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 01 - The Departure of Boromir

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Welcome to the chapter-by-chapter discussion of The Two Towers! Interestingly, the book begins with an ending, which only emphasizes the fact that LotR is one book, not a trilogy. (In my opinion, Peter Jackson's use of this chapter at the end of the first movie was a good choice.) The chapter title is rather ambiguous - did anyone think that it meant Boromir was going to Minas Tirith when first reading the book? We now know that it's a final and tragic (though redemptive) departure, of course.

Actually, the book begins with a synopsis of FotR; if anyone would like to comment on that or has noticed anything particularly interesting about it, this is the place to do so.

One thing that stands out in this chapter is Aragorn's uncertainty. Do you think that adds depth to his character? As mark/Helen commented in the previous chapter discussion, he is not even able to make use of the possibility of seeing on Amon Hen. Apparently the personal situation of the one who comes there affects what happens.

Unlike the movie, we do not see Boromir fighting against the orcs in the book, but stay with Aragorn, seeing the events from his point of view. He is the only one of the remaining Fellowship members who is not involved in fighting action. Gimli's answer to Aragorn's attempt to make the right decision is fascinating, even chilling:

Maybe there is no right choice.

We have one poem, Aragorn and Legolas' mourning song for Boromir.

Much of the rest of the chapter is searching for clues as to the fate of the four hobbits, and the decision to follow the orcs who took Merry and Pippin closes it with the begin of their chase.

I'm sure Boromir's end will be a major discussion point, but what other parts of the chapter are important to you, and why?

[Boromir88]

Good Morning everyone, can't believe we are already in TTT discussion.

Interestingly, the book begins with an ending, which only emphasizes the fact that LotR is one book, not a trilogy. (In my opinion, Peter Jackson's use of this chapter at the end of the first movie was a good choice.)

Very true, PJ handled that part well, I can just see it, the movie just cuts off when the orcs attack, then a year later, all of a sudden Boromir is seen dead.

On to more serious matter I'm afraid: This is a chapter of riddles (The S rune, what happened to the Hobbits, who are these bigger, larger orcs, what to do next), so as you can see the chapter is full of riddles. I think the events in this chapter are playing off Aragorn's characteristics right now. Sort of like Henry James The Turn of the Screw. The characters appear all nice and prompt, and they tidy up everything so good, but underneath it all is pretty demented evil. He uses a high vocabulary, rich terms, but underneath all the formality is some disturbing thoughts. Anyway....in this chapter we have a bunch of riddles, and I think this is to emphasize Aragorn's character at this time. Aragorn has no idea what he's done, he has no idea what to do, so Aragorn's personality is like a "riddle." He can't figure it out, he can't figure out the course to take.

Notice, in this chapter when Aragorn struggles who picks him up? Why Legolas and Gimli. Esty, has pointed out from Gimli:

"But after that we must guess the riddles, if we are to choose our course rights," answered Aragorn.
"Maybe there is no right choice," said Gimli.

Aragorn again can't decide what to do:

I do not know," answered Aragorn wearily. "Before he died Boromir told me that the Orcs had bound them; he did not think that they were dead. I sent him to follow Merry and Pippin; but I did not ask him if Frodo or Same were with him: not until it was too late. All that I have done today has gone amiss. What is to be done now?"

This time it is Legolas who picks him up:

"First we must tend the fallen," said Legolas. "We cannot leave him lying like carrion among these foul Orcs."

Once they have solved all the riddles of this Chapter, Aragorn appears to collect himself. When he went through that time "oh woe me," it was Gimli and Legolas who stepped up, but all the "riddles" have been solved, so Aragorn's personality comes back.

"Yes," said Aragorn, "we shall all need the endurance of Dwarves. But come! With hope or without hope we will follow the trail of our enemies. And woe to them, if we prove the swifter! We will make such a chase as shall be accounted a marvel among the Three Kindreds: Elves, Dwarves, and Men. Forth the Three hunters!"
Like a deer he sprang away. Through the trees he sped. On and on he led them, tireless and swift, now that his mind was at last made up.

I love the later representation of the strong fellowship between these three people. The "Fellowship" has been broken, but Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli create this Fellowship that is stronger then the old. I wanted to point out the word "hope" again. As I've mentioned in the Farewell to Lorien CbC, Aragorn appears to be a personified "hope" for Gimli. Aragorn is given Estel (hope) and Galadriel instructs Gimli to follow "hope," hold on to it, and Gimli does. Now we have Aragorn saying, "With hope or without hope we will follow the trail of our enemies." This I cannot seem to figure out, I might have to get back to you on that one .

[davem]

Just want to make a few random observations. First there’s an interesting exchange in one of the early drafts. Aragorn tells Legolas & Gimli what Boromir had done:

’I do not know all, but I know this. Boromir tried to take the Ring by force’
Exclamation of horror from Legolas & Gimli.
‘Think not ill of him,’ said Trotter. ‘He paid manfully & confessed.’

This use of the word ‘confessed’ seems significant - especially in the light of Tolkien’s statement that he had deliberately made the story Catholic in the revision. Actually it seems that his original idea was more Catholic but he changed it. Boromir dies forgiven & absolved of his ‘sins’ because he made a ‘death bed’ confession to Aragorn (well, to Trotter). But what does this say about Aragorn/Trotter? Does it mean that Tolkien saw him as having a ‘priestly’ role - able not simply to hear confession, but to give absolution?

Second, the episode on Amon Hen. Frodo sees with enhanced vision, & Aragorn was also intended to an the early draft, but his ‘vision’ was to have included a sight of Gandalf similar to the one Frodo saw in Galadriel’s Mirror. But why does Frodo see the whole of Middle earth laid out before him while Aragorn sees only what we’d expect him to see from a high hilltop:

Then sitting in the high seat he looked out. But the sun seemed darkened, and the world dim and remote. He turned from the North back again to North, and saw nothing save the distant hills, unless it were that far away he could see again a great bird like an eagle high in the air, descending slowly in wide circles down towards the earth.

So, how ‘magical’ a place is Amon Hen - if even Aragorn only sees what any of us would expect to see what’s so special about the place to earn it its name? And how come Frodo sees so much - is it the power of the Ring? But that would mean that The Hill of Sight only deserved its name & reputation if the person using it had their vision magically enhanced.

Third, why do Aragorn, Gimli & Legolas take so much time over Boromir’s funeral arrangements? It seems illogical - shouldn’t they be off after the Hobbits straight away? I was always struck by the strangeness of their actions. It seems both right & wrong to do what they do. Logically, its silly. Boromir’s dead, the Hobbits are alive & in need, yet the three remaining companions take time to take Boromir to the boat, row it out into the stream & then sing a funeral dirge over his body. Yet on some level I know it was both right & necessary, & I would have lost all respect for them if they hadn’t done what they did - what’s that line about the heart having reasons that reason knows not of?

And that brings me to my final point - the funeral song. They didn’t actually sing that, did they?

Well, how could they? Make up a song, metre perfect, on the spur of the moment. I think what we have here is something added in to the tale afterwards. The truth’ has been mythologised. We know they must have simply expressed their grief at the time & only when the tale came to be written down was the song (possibly composed at a later date in Gondor, possibly by Bilbo or Frodo) ‘inserted’. Tolkien is not writing a novel set in Middle earth, he is writing a legend of that world. History has become legend, & its the legend that we’re given here.

But as to the song itself, its obviously intentional that Legolas sings of the South wind & the Sea.

From the mouths of the Sea the South Wind flies, from the sandhills and the stones; The wailing of the gulls it bears, and at the gate it moans. ...

-so many bones there lie On the white shores and the dark shores under the stormy sky; So many have passed down Anduin to find the flowing Sea.

‘So many have passed down Anduin to find the flowing Sea.

So they have, & others will follow, including Legolas himself.

[Bêthberry]

Thank you again for another well-wrought intro to the discussion, Estelyn. I do indeed have other things to say about the chapter, but for now let me get Boromir out of the way.

This chapter provides the one of the remaining pieces of evidence in my point that, in Boromir, Tolkien was depicting his concept of the Northern Heroic Warrior. (See Tolkien's "The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth" for his ideas about noble errors and heroes dying for their folly. I don't want to repeat myself too much here, however much I enjoy listening to my argument again.)

Saucepan has said in the previous chapter that we are analysing Boromir psychologically. Here let me extricate my argument from that statement. Rather, I consider Boromir narratologically. Whoa! Big word. Not as big as verisimilitude, but up there. I mean simply that I consider Boromir the character's function in terms of plot or narrative/story.

Tolkien the writer has a problem. He's got the son of the Steward of Minas Tirith who thinks he's the One thank you very much, oldest son and Dad's favourite and the Big Man on Campus. Having won election as campus leader, he just knows he is going to be President of the University someday. However, Tolkien's got the 'once and future King', Aragorn-Arthur, who is going to return to claim the throne for righteousness and true love's sake. (My flippancy here does not do justice to how Tolkien rewrites the courtly love scenario in Aragorn and Arwen, but that is for another chapter anyway.) Now, how does a writer resolve that situation? He can let them go mano e mano, duking it out for the top dukedom, so to speak. But that will interfer with his depiction of Elessar's true nobility. Better to get the pretender out of the way somehow. And out of the way before the big A starts his lonely journey of proving himself.

What kinds of 'somehow' are available? Well, there's a chance to demonstrate by opposition the kind of true nobility which the rightful king will demonstrate. That is, show how the Pretender does not measure up. Then, there is the very attractive opportunity to demonstrate something of the power of the Ring over a character who can safely, without damaging the main plot line, be done away with. And, finally, there's a wonderful opportunity to call into play the most important moral value which the quest to destroy the Ring will show: the value of pity. Boromir the character didn't have a chance. He was just too perfectly expendable.

He can, then, go greatly in to that goodnight. Boromir's death provides Tolkien with the chance to create an essential feature of the Norther Warrior's demise: the funeral boat. Expending time on this scene demonstrates two things: the value of the dead in this kind of society--as the earthly home of the spirit they deserve a respectful closure-- as well as the funeral rites befitting a hero. Here, for example, is the funeral boat of Scyld Scefing from Beowulf. I'm using Seamus Heaney's translation, so his name is Shield Sheafson.

Shield was still thriving when his time came
and he crossed over into the Lord's keeping
His warrior band did what he bade them
when he laid down the law among the Danes:
they shouldered him out to the sea's flood,
the chief they revered who had long ruled them.
A ring-whorled prow rode in the harbour,
ice-clad, outbound, a craft for a prince.
they stretched their beloved lord in his boat,
laid out by the mast, amidships,
the great ring-giver. Far-fetched treasures
were piled upon him, and precious gear.
I never heard before of a ship so well furbished
with battle tackle, bladed weapons
and coats of mail. The massed treasure
was loaded on top of him: it would travel far
on out into the ocean's sway.
They decked his body no less bountifully
with offerings than those first ones did
who cast him away when he was a child
and launched him alone out over the waves.
And they set a gold standard up
high above his head and let him drift
to wind and tide, bewailing him
and mourning their loss. No man can tell,
no wise man in hall or weathered veteran
knows for certain who salvaged that load.

This contrasts with Beowulf's death, where Beowulf had decreed a barrow be built and his body was first consumed upon a pyre with his gold and treasures. Yet consider these last lines from the poem:

So the Geat people, his hearth companions,
sorrowed for the lord who had been laid low.
They said that of all the kings upon the earth
he was the man most gracious and fair-minded,
kindest to his people and keenest to win fame.

Well, just a final little note to the extended edition of the Heroic Northern Warrior arguement.

[Aiwendil]

This is rather a short chapter - only about seven and a half pages. Why? Perhaps in part because it's not really its own chapter; in terms of content, it is more like the conclusion of the previous chapter, "The Breaking of the Fellowship". This is a nice little trick Tolkien plays: he leaves us in the midst of the action at the end of Book II (only for Frodo and Sam are things in any way concluded there), putting the literal division between the books before the natural conclusion of Book II (that conclusion being Boromir's death and Aragorn's decision to go after Merry and Pippin). Nonetheless, I'm inclined to agree with Estelyn that Peter Jackson actually made the right decision here; this is perhaps one of the few cases where the movie-aesthetic really is different from the book-aesthetic.

This chapter is in my opinion probably the best portrayal of Aragorn in the book. Aragorn, I will admit, is not my favorite character. Not that I dislike him - but it often seems that he lacks depth. In the discussion of I-10 I said:

He is a flat character in the tradition of great flat characters like Aeneas and Beowulf. It's not that he is poorly characterized, just that he does not have the same sort of psychological hook as Turin or Gollum or even Frodo.

Well, if there's one chapter that proves me wrong, I think it's this one. Here, Aragorn's indecision, his mistakes, his regrets - all are vividly and effectively depicted. For example:

Boromir smiled.
'Which way did they go? Was Frodo there?' said Aragorn.
But Boromir did not speak again.
'Alas!' said Aragorn. 'Thus passes the heir of Denethor, Lord of the Tower of the Guard! This is a bitter end. Now the company is all in ruin. It is I that have failed. Vain was Gandalf's trust in me. What shall I do now? Boromir has laid it on me to go to Minas Tirith, and my heart desires it; but where are the Ring and the Bearer? How shall I find them and save the Quest from disaster?'

Even the minutest detail is perfect here - as, for example, that Aragorn waited a moment too long to ask Boromir whether Frodo was with them.

This kind of indecision is really needed at this point in the book. One of the dangers of having characters like Aragorn and, especially, Gandalf, aiding Frodo is that, deep down, it is almost impossible for the reader to believe that such figures of benevolent authority will ever fail or be defeated. Only by showing us that they can and do fail (or even better, killing them off) can Tolkien make the reader really worry.

[HerenIstarion]

Beautiful

One question remains - the main point of putting Scyld into the boat was to 'pay back' - as he came by boat as a child.

But that remark is mainly due to my natural nastiness. Me and my long tongue, so to say. I can't be constructive in the case, so I withdraw

cheers

EDIT: cross-posted with Aiwendil. All of the post above refers to Bb's post (previous but one) END OF EDIT

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

I agree that this chapter is more a conclusion of Book I than the beginning of Book II. According to my calender, there were five months between tehg publishing of FotR and TT. That's not too long to wait (certainly not as long as the poor Robert Jordan fans wait on a cliffhanger).

Since the movie has been discussed, I thought there were some very interesting deviations from the book in this scene. Most importantly, everyone in the fellowship realizes that Frodo has to go on by himself, and Merry and Pippin even heroically offer themselves up as a distraction to allow Frodo to escape the Isengard Ureks. Well done, PJ.

Originally Posted by davem

And that brings me to my final point - the funeral song. They didn’t actually sing that, did they?

Well, how could they? Make up a song, metre perfect, on the spur of the moment. I think what we have here is something added in to the tale afterwards. The truth’ has been mythologised. We know they must have simply expressed their grief at the time & only when the tale came to be written down was the song (possibly composed at a later date in Gondor, possibly by Bilbo or Frodo) ‘inserted’. Tolkien is not writing a novel set in Middle earth, he is writing a legend of that world. History has become legend, & its the legend that we’re given here.

I think that it's entirely likely that they composed the song on the spot. First, the probably were using a melody that they were very familliar with, and both Aragorn and Legolas were accomplished and experienced songwriters (Leggy's more of an assumption, I guess - Aragorn and Bilbo regularly composed together). Second, think about contemporary rap music (I use the m-word with reservations). Rap was originally improvised by the performer like jazz solos, and only when it became pop music did it become so produced.

Another example is done by comedians, such as Wayne Brady, who improvise a song on the spot. Granted, sometimes it's lame, but sometimes it's spot on. And Aragorn and Legolas didn't have the added pressure of trying to be funny in front of an audience.

So, in short, I think that it's not at all unrealistic to believe that they made the funeral song up on the spot.

My $0.02

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

One question remains - the main point of putting Scyld into the boat was to 'pay back' - as he came by boat as a child.

My dear HI, among the several possible answers which I could make, I shall settle for this: aren't they sending Denethor's child back by express boat to Minas Tirith?

[the phantom]

The chapter title is rather ambiguous - did anyone think that it meant Boromir was going to Minas Tirith when first reading the book?

Yes.

The first time I read LOTR my head was spinning after this chapter.

Frodo and Sam are off alone, Boromir gets killed, Merry and Pippin get captured (probably the thing I least expected), and Aragorn decides to chase after M & P.

Maybe there is no right choice.

That's exactly how I was feeling when I read this part.

Then sitting in the high seat he looked out. But the sun seemed darkened, and the world dim and remote.

Hmm... could Sauron have anything to do with this? Sauron had felt somebody who was either powerful or had a powerful object in their possession looking at him from the hill earlier in the day. Perhaps he was still giving Amon Hen (or the area around it) a bit of attention which caused Aragorn's sight on the hill to be darkened or cloaked.

And I agree with Aldarion and his points regarding the funeral song and how it could have been made up on the spot.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Aldarion

Second, think about contemporary rap music (I use the m-word with reservations). Rap was originally improvised by the performer like jazz solos, and only when it became pop music did it become so produced.

I did think of M&M playing Aragorn in my planned remake of the movie & now I think I may be on to something. If we had Britney as Arwen & Madonna & Galadriel we could have he makings of something....

As to Bb's points re Boromir - I agree up to a point, but I also think Boromir is a perfectly believable character in his own right, & if he serves as a foil for Aragorn that may serve the purposes of the plot that merely shows Tolkien's greatness. In other words, I could see Boromir working as a character in other stories, without an Aragorn figure to give him relevance. Both characters are valid & believeable, & so is the clash between them. I don't think Boromir's death & the effect it has on the others would be as moving if he was merely a means of showing Aragorn in a positive light. After all the interactions between many of the characters could be presented in the same way - to what extent is Gollum used to bring out elements in Frodo's & Sam's characters? Or Sam to bring out elements in Frodo's (or Gollum's) character.

Is Boromir so 'disposable' a figure? I have to lean towards the 'psychological' interpretation of him. He is a complex character in his own right as well as being everything you say in terms of what he brings to the fore in Aragorn. We're all 'foils' to others in our own way, but that doesn't make us any less 'real', or any more 'disposable'.

Also, yes, his funeral echoes an ancient funereal tradition, & no doubt that was intentional on Tolkien's part, but given the circumstances of the plot & the situation the characters found themselves in, it was also the only logical way to 'dispose of the body'. What else were they going to do with him? As for using him 'narratologically' I'm uncertain - Tolkien simply didn't have things planned out in that kind of way. From the early drafts its clear he hadn't decided what was to happen to Boromir - & as B88 has pointed out his original intention for Boromir was very different. It seems to me that his death & the mode of his funeral came to Tolkien not much before he actually wrote it. There's a danger in confusing art with artifice & I think Tolkien was motivated by the former.

[Lalwendë]

I have always found this chapter very affecting; my first read of it inspired me to draw a picture of Boromir's death scene, something which always comes to mind when I read it again. The scene in the film was as I had imagined it all those years ago, and thus, is one of my favourites in both book and film.

Aragorn knelt beside him. Boromir opened his eyes and strove to speak. At last slow words came. "I tried to take the Ring from Frodo," he said. "I am sorry. I have paid." His glance strayed to his fallen enemies; twenty at least lay there. "They have gone: the Halflings: the Orcs have taken them. I think they are not dead. Orcs bound them." He paused and his eyes closed wearily. After a moment he spoke again.
"Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed."
'No!" said Aragorn, taking his hand and kissing his brow. 'You have conquered. Few have gained such a victory. Be at peace! Minas Tirith shall not fall!"
Boromir smiled.
"Which way did they go? Was Frodo there?" said Aragorn.
But Boromir did not speak again.
'Alas!" said Aragorn. "Thus passes the heir of Denethor, Lord of the Tower of Guard! This is a bitter end. Now the Company is all in ruin. It is I that have failed. Vain was Gandalf's trust in me. What shall I do now? Boromir has laid it on me to go to Minas Tirith, and my heart desires it; but where are the Ring and the Bearer? How shall I find them and save the Quest from disaster?"
He knelt for a while, bent with weeping, still clasping Boromir's hand. So it was that Legolas and Gimli found him.

I was wondering, what is it about this chapter which is so emotionally gripping? Firstly, there is the actual death of Boromir which is written with real gravitas. Boromir has his final words, in which he admits to his failing in trying to take the ring, giving him a final touch of honesty where he has not always seemingly been honest previously. He also lies amongst the bodies of the enemies he has slain, thus marking him out as an effective warrior. He dies in pain, but not without trying to seek assurance that the people who look up to him will be helped; his last words are not for himself but for those below him in the hierarchy of Gondor. This brings to mind an image of a 'good soldier', perhaps that of the 'Unknown Soldier'. He is loyal to his people and dies after confessing his failings.

Here Aragorn shows just why he is loved and admired. He comforts Boromir in his dying moments. It is not immediately apparent whether Aragron truly means these words, but as the tale moves on, it becomes clear that he did admire Boromir as a comrade; after all, it's hard to imagine Aragorn crying over a man he did not admire. And it is Aragorn who leads the funeral lament. He displays himself as any respected military leader might; he is affected by the death of a valued comrade, even a little shaken by it. He tends the body with honour and dignity, leading his living comrades in mourning, and once all due respects have been paid, turns his mind to the next move.

If Aragorn's actions are viewed as a whole, including those written about in this chapter, it is more possible to see him as a rounded figure. I too can find him he comes out with slightly pompous words at times, but I think this is perfectly allowable for a character who is supposed to be a king in exile, a military leader.

About the mourning song - perhaps this song would be based upon a familiar format used at such tragic events; I noticed how they spoke of the points of the compass in turn, which did suggest that an established 'format' was being made use of. And verbosity does seem to be commonplace in Middle Earth, so I don't find it so peculiar that words could be composed on the spot.

I did think of M&M playing Aragorn in my planned remake of the movie & now I think I may be on to something. If we had Britney as Arwen & Madonna & Galadriel we could have he makings of something....

Well we already have Jerry Springer The Opera* so why not Tolkien The Rock Opera? Perhaps not...

*And yes, it is a genuine opera, I have seen it.

[mark12_30]

Another "trick" for making up songs on the spot is to use established patterns. Iin Homer's day, "Rosy Fingered Dawn" shows up more than once. I suspect that Lament for Boromir has some re-useable patterns in it, and the implication is that they might have come from previous dirges. Aragorn fought for both Rohan and Gondor ("Thorongil"...) and so has heard more than one lament in his day.

I also wonder-- with the Old English tendency to boast over a cup:

Ælfwine then said, he spoke with courage:
"Remember the times that we often spoke at mead,
when on the bench we raised up our boast,
saviors in hall, about hard battle;
Now may he who would be bold be tested.
( Battle of Maldon )

Perhaps did Aragorn, Gimli, and Boromir talk and jest about such things? How many Gondorian songs did Boromir sing between Rivendell and Parth Galen? And did those songs affect their lament for him?

And I wonder also-- did warriors jest about how they want to be remembered? Ever written your own epitaph, or what you wanted it to be, as an exercise? I can imagine warriors doing the same thing. (Especially after reading 'Battle of Maldon, ' where such things come up often )

[Boromir88]

Boromir's last words intrigue me.

"Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed."

What did Boromir fail? Fail to protect the hobbits? Failed to save his people, or both? This last part catches my attention.

[Lindolirian]

While it could mean both that he had failed to save his people and/or Merry and Pippin, I had always thought it could mean that he had failed the test of the temptation of the Ring. Gandalf did mention that Boromir repented before the end and that could easily be referring to:

I tried to take the Ring from Frodo. I am sorry. I have paid.

... but I also feel that his admitting his failure was a part of his repentance. What I find more interesting is the fact that Aragorn admits he fails right after Boromir repents. How much did Aragorn secretly depend on Boromir is something I've always wondered.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

One thing that intrigues me is the blowing of the horn of Boromir right on the bounds of old Gondor. Was Boromir unwittingly heralding the return of the King?

Or maybe he was just blowing the horn to call for aid: y'know, why he brought the horn in the first place.

I know. But I said "unwittingly".

Anywhen, another weird thing about the horn is that it was created right before the Stewards became the rulers of Gondor, and was destroyed right before their return to . . . well . . . Stewardship.

So, how ‘magical’ a place is Amon Hen - if even Aragorn only sees what any of us would expect to see what’s so special about the place to earn it its name? And how come Frodo sees so much - is it the power of the Ring? But that would mean that The Hill of Sight only deserved its name & reputation if the person using it had their vision magically enhanced. (davem)

I've been puzzling over this one, too, and came up with only one idea: Perhaps the hill itself was exhausted after the battle that took place there. But there might be other explanations.

[Rimbaud]

I think the other area of major interest in this chapter is that, post-Breaking, the book now neatly divides itself. The reader becomes aware instantly with Book III that the thick main narrative strand of FotR cannot easily be recaptured, as the book splits in these opening chapters into the three strands. This is easy symbolism to understand, and the reader is left hoping that the strands will reunite, for closure and catharsis.

The other point on these natural schisms is JRRT's choice of which strand to start with in Book III. In terms of action, and emotive force, the scene of Boromir's death has the most impact, yet is that the author's sole reason to open with it?

On a more personal note, when stories split like this, do you have a favoured strand, and read a little impatiently through the others, until you return to the strand you have the most interest in? This question probably only applies to your first reading.

[Boromir88]

Originally posted by Rimbaud:
On a more personal note, when stories split like this, do you have a favoured strand, and read a little impatiently through the others, until you return to the strand you have the most interest in? This question probably only applies to your first reading.

I'm sure people do have their own "thread" they tend to like more, as the book splits. From the Movie's I preferred Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas stories over the others, and now that I've seen the movie so many times, sometimes I fastforward through the parts that don't intrigue me as much. With the book, I've read it in whole a few times, but I will skip around to certain chapters that interest me, or where I need to try to find some answers . If there's a favorite thread for me to find in the book to follow, over the others, it would be Frodo and Sam. There interactions with Faramir were done much better, and of course we get Shelob. I will say though, I love all the seperate threads once the book breaks.

[mark12_30]

Amon Hen-- I don't think the hill wore out its magic. But anything supernatural takes participation to experience. If Ted Sandyman had stood on that hill, do you think he would have seen anything? I don't.

Even for those who are very capable-- it doesn't always come together. Think of the times when Gandalf's supernatural abilities are frustrated. He can't remember; or something blocks him; or he just makes a mistake, a bad choice, and his magic doesn't do him much good if he's in the wrong place. Isn't Gandalf supernatural? Of course he is. But it's like anything else; you're never 100% effective 100% of the time. It comes and goes, sometimes you're 'on', sometimes you're not.

An olympic athlete has to be in the right mental and physical "space" to give an olympic performance. Just being in the venue doesn't make you a winner. But being out of the venue doesn't help much if you want that medal.

Being on top of Amon Hen isn't an automatic visionary experience. But if you are seeking a vision, and you can have them, and you know what to do, or you are gifted in that area-- it might all come together, like it did for Frodo (who ran up there with no clear thoughts in mind and no expectations, hence, open to whatever he might see.) Or it might not come together at all, as when Aragorn ran up the hill, worried about the fellowship, frantically chasing Frodo, annoyed with Boromir, and wishing Gandalf was there to help. He saw nothing. Perhaps he was Meant to see nothing (there I go with capitals again) or perhaps he could have seen something if he was prepared and ready, and in the right emotional and mental and spiritual 'space'. He wasn't. He was half-frantic. No visionary 'gold medal' that day for Aragorn.

But:
-the olympic venue hadn't changed.
-Aragorn's heart does see and speak clearly later without the aid of Amon Hen.

Rimbaud-- my favorite thread(s) have changed many times over the past thirty years-- hmm, almost as often as I've switched 'favorite characters'.

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Boromir has his final words, in which he admits to his failing in trying to take the ring, giving him a final touch of honesty where he has not always seemingly been honest previously.

Boromir not honest? I'm surpirised no one else has pounced on this one, yet. Or maybe everyone's got a little bit of Boromir burnout (TM me) after the last several weeks.

Seriously, this observation gave me pause to think a bit. Obviously Boromir prides himself on being totally honest all of the time. Men of Minis Tirith do not lie. This implies a question to me, however - is it possible to be totally honest all of the time without being, on some level at least, dishonest with yourself. That is, the complete honesty becomes a sort of self-delusion.

I think that the pride issue is the answer in this case. Boromir did in fact lie to himself, every time he told himself that he could handle the ring. We could argue whether the ring was lying to him, or influencing what was already in him, or his own pride and the stories he knew of the ring caused it, but Boromir's greatest lie was to himself.

This line of thought has got me wondering about the possibility of living a completely truthfull life. Some truths hurts, such as "the dress you just spent $75 on makes you look fat," or "I cannot really handle the temptation of (the ring, pornography, alcoholism, insert your favorite addictive behavior here)." But all hard truths have a way of being dealt with without being purposely hurtfull.

Now that I've re-read my post, I think that the sort of complete honesty that I was refering to in my second paragraph isn't really honesty at all. It is seeing the world and yourself as you would like it to be, not as it really is. Boromir is presented as the ultimate pragmatist (at least in his own mind), wanting to take the ring and fininsh off the enemy, rather than send the ring to almost certain capture in the heart of enemy territory.

I would argue that, rather than the most pragmatic of the bunch, Boromir is the most idealistic of the company - an idealism that is not rooted in reality.

Chew on that...

[the phantom]

do you have a favoured strand, and read a little impatiently through the others, until you return to the strand you have the most interest in?

I like all the strands too much to read one of them impatiently, but in this part of the story I would choose the chapter that features Merry, Pip, and the orcs as my favorite.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Aldarion

I would argue that, rather than the most pragmatic of the bunch, Boromir is the most idealistic of the company - an idealism that is not rooted in reality.

Fascinating point. I can't help wondering if this is the conflict that's ging on inside Boromir - not the obvious one of 'How do I get my hands on the Ring without getting myself done in?' but a conflict between his desire for the Ring (or what it menas to him) & his own sense of what is 'Right'. Basically all that stuff about being truth speakers & upholders of right & justice has up to that point been just words. He's lived by them because nothing has really challenged them. Now he's being forced to live by those words & the struggle becomes overwhelming. Even when he breaks & attempts to steal the Ring he still attempts to justify what he's doing in terms of the philosophy he's grown up with.

He's a man who has been able to follow his desires for power & authority while still holding to the letter of those teachings, because he was fighting a war against an external 'evil' force. Suddenly he's confronted with the spirit of them & is 'torn in two'. In the end, as Aragorn tells him, he 'conquers' & chooses the spirit over the letter of those teachings. Something St. Paul (?)said about the 'Letter kills, the spirit gives life' springs to mind.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Rimbaud

I think the other area of major interest in this chapter is that, post-Breaking, the book now neatly divides itself. The reader becomes aware instantly with Book III that the thick main narrative strand of FotR cannot easily be recaptured, as the book splits in these opening chapters into the three strands. This is easy symbolism to understand, and the reader is left hoping that the strands will reunite, for closure and catharsis.

The other point on these natural schisms is JRRT's choice of which strand to start with in Book III. In terms of action, and emotive force, the scene of Boromir's death has the most impact, yet is that the author's sole reason to open with it?

On a more personal note, when stories split like this, do you have a favoured strand, and read a little impatiently through the others, until you return to the strand you have the most interest in? This question probably only applies to your first reading.

A good interjection into this on-going Boromir-fest, Rim, and one that properly asks us to think about story.

I would not want to push this comparison too far, but in some ways the plotting strategy seems almost archetypal in some ways. Not in terms of major narrative structure or mythology, but similar in a poignant way to the patterns of many people's lives.

I think, for instance, that the time of most intense friendship is that moment (or those long years) when people are negotiating the transition between adolescence and adulthood. Whether it is high school (which for some is hell I know) or the years of first employment or university, this is the time when interests are explored, relationships forged, paths determined, promises made. At least I think in North America the desire for a community of close and intense friendships is played out over and over in television dramas, whether in Cheers or Friends, or... well, you pick the show.

Then, something happens. Adulthood intervenes, in the shape of work and career. Demands upon time, energy, and attention increase. Bonds of personal relationship take over from the group allegiance. (I know that when I first started dating my future husband, my friends in grad school wondered where I went. They saw me with this guy, who they named "Art" after Art Garfunkle, because they hadn't met him yet; it would be six months before they did.) Then, for others, family responsibilities come along and replace the intensity of friendship. Night after night of nursing a sick child do not make for party animals.

Something else splinters the old cusp friendships. Some of the gang don't make it. My cousin died at 21 in a car crash. My husband's best buddy died in a motorcycle crash. One summer, three kids on a school outing drowned. The good die young, it used to be said. Then, there seems to be a lull, and people don't start disappearing again until the transition to middle age. But the teen or early adulthood years always claim some one or two in the group.

Part of the idyllic moment of LotR for me is the forging of the Fellowship, the eagerness of Merry and Pippin to follow Frodo and Sam. And Sam's utter devotion to Frodo. And the excitement of Rivendell with Aragorn and Boromir, and an elf and a dwarf, joining the group. The horizon expands. They have little idea what they will face, but they pledge to face it together.

Then this bond breaks. One doesn't make it. Two leave the others behind to complete their lonely quest. The other younger kids, Merry and Pippin, are abducted. Those who make the transition to adult responsibility, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli, find their rightful place in fulfilling their duty. As Rimbaud says, we do hope for "closure and catharsis", some kind of return.
I certainly wouldn't push this idea of an archetype of the journey through adolescense to adulthood. And I don't mean to suggest that it was 'deliberate' on Tolkien's part. But something about the trajectory of the story follows a pattern of relationship. Maybe we are always wanting to recapture that spring of intense friendships before life gets in the way of life. And maybe we are also wanting to seek out our own journeys beyond those days, whether it is the personal quest or the public one.

Not on first read any more , Rim, but I do have a preferred quest. The bleak, agonising one.

[Boromir88]

I like all your points Bethberry, I think that the plotting strategy is archetypal. You also bring up something which I've been saying for a while, but I think it's worth repeating...

Then this bond breaks. One doesn't make it. Two leave the others behind to complete their lonely quest. The other younger kids, Merry and Pippin, are abducted.

The bond between the "Fellowship" does break, and crash into failure. However, I love all the other "fellowships" that are "created." (Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli; Merry and Pippin; Frodo and Sam). Before this time, we could definately say that the Company got to know eachother, did forge a friendship. But the bond between them, to me, always seemed weak, because practically from day 1 everything that could go wrong, did go wrong (Caradhras, Moria, Boromir's arguments, Amon Hen). Because of these situations the Fellowship breaks. But look what springs out from it? The "Fellowships" that spring out from it, are much stronger. Frodo and Sam become practically best friends. Merry and Pippin were best friends from the start, but they too grow and mature. Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli, travel with eachother to the end. And a friendship between an Elf and Dwarf is created that has never been seen before.

I think comparing the original Fellowship, to the 3 new fellowships, I would have to say the original Fellowship's "friendships" were rather weak. They collapsed under pressure. Where if we look at some pressures these smaller Fellowships have to face, they are able to succeed. Helm's Deep, Shelob, Cirith Ungol (I love the moments with Sam and Frodo), Paths of the Dead, Isengard, Pelennor Fields. Which leads me to think that these smaller bonds, were stronger then the Fellowhsip of 9. Since they are able to get through the hard times, where the original Fellowship fell apart.

[The Saucepan Man]

Short though it is, this Chapter must rank among my favourites. I still have a vague (unfortunately too vague) recollection of the shock of Boromir's death when I first read the book. It is one of those moments that stays with you.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

The chapter title is rather ambiguous - did anyone think that it meant Boromir was going to Minas Tirith when first reading the book?

The title choice is important. Imagine picking up the book in the shop and reading the Chapter title: "The Death of Boromir" or something similar! This became even more important with LotR's eventual publication under a single cover, as was Tolkien's original intention. If the first-time reader knew of Boromir's fate all along it would significantly affect his or her reaction to the character.

Originally Posted by Estelyn

As mark/Helen commented in the previous chapter discussion, he is not even able to make use of the possibility of seeing on Amon Hen. Apparently the personal situation of the one who comes there affects what happens.

Like Estelyn and Helen, I believe that Aragorn's experience at Amon Hen is very much a product of his frame of mind. He is riven with worry and indecision. His mind is clouded, and so is his view. Although both Frodo and Aragorn come to Amon Hen with choices to make, there is a fundamental difference. Frodo had already, in his heart, made his choice (particularly after his experience with Boromir). He knows what he has to do, and this is simply confirmed by what he sees at the Seat of Seeing. Aragorn, on the other hand, remains undecided. And it is for him to make his final decision, guided by the circumstances and with the support of those in whom he trusts. It is not the function of the Seat to make his mind up for him. And, in any event, what could he possibly see that would aid him in his choice? The Orcs carrying off Merry and Pippin? Frodo and Sam rowing to the far shore? He will become aware of these things soon enough, through his own actions.

Originally Posted by Estelyn

One thing that stands out in this chapter is Aragorn's uncertainty.

Indeed. And then some. But this continues a pattern that we have seen throughout the preceding Chapters, commencing with Gandalf's fall in Moria. Aragorn has had the leadership of the Fellowship thrust upon him, and he doubts his own ability to live up to this role. We have seen his desire to prolong making any decision as to the course which the Fellowship should take (most particularly in his eagerness to follow the flow of the Anduin, with almost disastrous consequences). His doubt and indecision have been growing since Gandalf's fall, and this Chapter sees the culmination of this trend. Not once but twice he reflects that all that he has done this day has gone amiss. His soliloquy following Boromir's death drips with despair. I think that it has been quoted once already, but it bears repeating:

'Alas!' said Aragorn. 'Thus passes the heir of Denethor, Lord of the Tower of the Guard! This is a bitter end. Now the company is all in ruin. It is I that have failed. Vain was Gandalf's trust in me. What shall I do now? Boromir has laid it on me to go to Minas Tirith, and my heart desires it; but where are the Ring and the Bearer? How shall I find them and save the Quest from disaster?'

What's going on? Here we have the character who represents hope (Estel) seemingly losing all hope himself. This truly represents his lowest point.

But he does not give up. With the support of Legolas and Gimli, he picks himself up and starts to assess the position. His words and actions begin to take on a more positive, confident tone. Perhaps, as Gimli says, there is no right choice. But there is a choice to be made and, having gathered as much information as he can, Aragorn faces up to it. (I tend to think that Gimli is wrong here. Who knows what would have happened had Aragorn chosen to follow Frodo, but the choice which he makes ultimately turns out for the good. And it would have been unthinkable to leave Merry and Pippin to their fate while hope remained that they were alive. But, to be fair to Gimli, his comment here is made without full knowledge of the facts.)

But come! With or without hope we will follow the trail of our enemies. And woe to them, if we prove the swifter! We will make such a chase as shall be accounted a marvel among the Three Kindreds: Elves, Dwarves and Men. Forth the Three Hunters!

Positive, affirmative and inspiring statements. A complete contrast to Aragorn's words immediately following Boromir's death. (And even I, film 'apologist' that I am, have to admit that they are infinately superior to "Lets hunt some Orc!" .)

This Chapter marks an essential stage in the transformation of Aragorn into one who is worthy to become the leader of Men. It's not that he lacked confidence or hope or leadership skills before. But he is destined to become King of the greatest nation of (Western) Middle earth, and that requires exceptional qualities. These he shows in some measure in lifting himself from despair and rising to the challenge set for him here. But he has to do this himself. The Seat of Seeing cannot provide the solution for him.

Like Aiwendil, I have always regarded Aragorn as a rather flat character but, for the reasons discussed above, I have to agree with him when he says that this Chapter is probably the best portrayal of Aragorn in the book.

And so, once again, to Boromir.

At last slow words came. "I tried to take the Ring from Frodo. I am sorry. I have paid."

In these words, I do see true repentance on Boromir's part. Aldarion Elf-Friend makes the very good point that Boromir's greatest, perhaps only, lie was to himself. In admitting to Aragorn that he tried to take the Ring (something which he could not bring himself to do when he first returned to Parth Galen), he is admitting to himself that he was wrong to do so - to allow himself to be corrupted by it. In my view, this is indeed what he is referring to when he says that he has failed. He recognises that it is something for which 'payment' is due. He is, I think, truly sorry. And Aragorn's words suggest to me that Boromir has, finally, conquered the Ring's hold over him (or that within him to which the Ring appealed). I doubt that Aragorn is just talking about the dead Orcs when he says that "Few have gained such a victory".

It is, to my mind, important that Boromir's act of redemption (whereby he 'pays' for his mistake) is one which reminds us of his redeeming qualities. As Lalwendë has noted, the fact that he is surrounded by the bodies of those that he has slain marks him out as a warrior. And the sheer number that lay piled up around him, not to mention the alarming number of arrows that have pierced him, highlight his valour and strength.

Boromir's downfall came through his over-confidence - thinking (or deceiving himself) that he knew better than the Wise what to do with the Ring. But he redeems himself through those qualities in which he is rightfully confident: valour, strength and skill in arms. Interestingly, Aragorn's low point in this Chapter comes through a lack of confidence in his own qualities, but it is through exercising his undoubted skills in tracking (through which he learns of Frodo's choice and gains a goal - to save Merry and Pippin) that he finds inspiration as a leader and sets off on the path which is, ultimately, to lead him to the throne of Gondor.

Originally Posted by davem

This use of the word ‘confessed’ seems significant - especially in the light of Tolkien’s statement that he had deliberately made the story Catholic in the revision. Actually it seems that his original idea was more Catholic but he changed it. Boromir dies forgiven & absolved of his ‘sins’ because he made a ‘death bed’ confession to Aragorn (well, to Trotter). But what does this say about Aragorn/Trotter? Does it mean that Tolkien saw him as having a ‘priestly’ role - able not simply to hear confession, but to give absolution?

But the final version does retain the 'confession' element. Boromir does confess what he has done to Aragorn. And, interestingly, Aragorn honours the confidentiality of Boromir's confession, for he does not mention it to Legolas or Gimli and keeps Boromir's last words to him secret for a long time thereafter. In light of this, I cannot help but find the suggestion that Aragorn is somehow assuming a 'priestly' role here a compelling one. Aragorn forgives Boromir by his words and deeds, but isn't he simply offering his personal forgiveness? I doubt that Tolkien would see Aragorn as giving absolution in Eru's name, since that would be a matter for Eru. Then again, as I have suggested above, Aragorn's words of forgiveness work, I think, to inspire forgiveness in the reader. Do they therefore absolve Boromir as a matter of fact, within the context of the story?

Originally Posted by davem

Third, why do Aragorn, Gimli & Legolas take so much time over Boromir’s funeral arrangements? It seems illogical - shouldn’t they be off after the Hobbits straight away? I was always struck by the strangeness of their actions. It seems both right & wrong to do what they do. Logically, its silly. Boromir’s dead, the Hobbits are alive & in need, yet the three remaining companions take time to take Boromir to the boat, row it out into the stream & then sing a funeral dirge over his body. Yet on some level I know it was both right & necessary, & I would have lost all respect for them if they hadn’t done what they did - what’s that line about the heart having reasons that reason knows not of?

I agree that it was both right and necessary. In the context of the moral values inherent in the story, it would have been unthinkable to leave Boromir's body "lying like carrion among these foul Orcs". What is the point of fighting against Sauron if they do not uphold the values which set them apart from him?

Finally, a quick word on the barrow blades which Aragorn finds among the bodies of the Orcs. It is heartening to see that Merry and Pippin did not allow themselves to be captured without a fight. But more significant is Aragorn's description of them as:

... work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor.

This foreshadows the use to which these blades will eventually be put by Merry and Pippin, particularly Merry. There can be no doubt that Aragorn made the right choice in taking them with hope of returning them.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Just a brief allusion back to Aldarion's suggestion that Legolas and Gimli would have had the skills to compose such a song on the spot. I would heartily concur. The key factor here would not be that a few contemporary entertainers possess this ability even today, but rather the very nature of Middle-earth and how learning and story is passed on in a traditional culture.

This world is so different than ours. It is a culture where oral tradition holds equal or even greater weight than that which is written. Many things would be memorized and passed on orally from one generation to the next. In such a setting, most people would have had a small stock of funereal rites and songs in their memory that could be adapted and tweeked to fit a particular situation. They would draw upon this in the same way that I would automatically go to my library and find a particular book of poems that would contain something with meaning for a given situation.

It's also interesting to consider that, by all rational standards, it was a terrible mistake for the "good guys" to be standing about singing while the Orcs are dragging the captured Hobbits further and further away. But as badly as the company needed to take off after the kidnapped Hobbits, it was even more essential that they show and define who they are. Unlike the Orcs who let their comrades die without giving them a second thought, Aragorn and his companions take time to show respect and honor for those who have fallen, even if it puts them further behind the kidnappers. To gain time by disregarding a fundamental principle--that of respect for an individual life--is not something Tolkien could countenance in his "heroes".

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by mark 12_30

when on the bench we raised up our boast,
saviors in hall, about hard battle;
Now may he who would be bold be tested.

You've got a point, sure

Cf with the Council of Elrond A/B bickering:

B: Mayhap the Sword-that-was-Broken may still stem the tide – if the hand that wields it has inherited not an heirloom only, but the sinews of the Kings of Men.'
A:`Who can tell?' But we will put it to the test one day.'
B:`May the day not be too long delayed,' said Boromir

Yes, I know that it is Boromir who does the boasting, but he does it, in a way, in Aragorn's stead - the passage would have been weaker if it were Aragorn to boast an ability to 'stem the tide', but it would not have been less plausible. It would be more so, in a sense. As it stands, it underlies Aragorn's calm confidence (as opposed to movie Aragorn, who would not be so calm about 'testing day'). But Boromir acts as is a warrior's way - he puts into Aragorn's mouth words he would expect from his equal - from another warrior, and the answer is both 'right' and 'wrong' - it is wrong that it doubts itself (who can tell), but in this doubt reveals more than a mere warrior in Aragorn (i.e. one without assurance, on trust (estel) ready to make battle) , but is 'right' in a sense that boast to 'put it to the test' is a 'right' warrior answer.

I suppose, following mark, that similar interchanges may have been a-plenty along the road.

[Aiwendil]

HerenIstarion: You make a good point. I think that Shippey discusses the 'one day we shall put it to the test' formula in connection with that passage.

Yes, I know that it is Boromir who does the boasting, but he does it, in a way, in Aragorn's stead - the passage would have been weaker if it were Aragorn to boast an ability to 'stem the tide'

Yes. I wonder if there is perhaps more significance in the point you raise than at first meets the eye. Are there instances in northern epics like this one - where one character effectively makes the boast for another? I can't think of any in what I've read, but I'm certainly not an expert. For that matter, it's hard to think of instances of humility in those works. Aragorn is indeed confident and proud, but he is also, I think, humble in what may be a peculiarly modern sense. I think that this is one way in which Tolkien's heroic ideal differs from the Norse or Anglo-Saxon or even Homeric ideal.

Of course, one's interpretation of those ideals has some relavance. I recall that in the essay "Turin's Ofermod", Richard West discusses Tolkien's interpretation of the word "ofermod" found in "The Battle of Maldon". The word may be translated "overmood", "overboldness". Many or most scholars read the word as one of praise for Beorhtnoth and as reflecting the heroic ideal of the Anglo-Saxons. Tolkien, on the other hand, read it as expressing fault. Now I don't know enough about "The Battle of Maldon" or Anglo-Saxon literature in general to make a reasonable guess as to which view is correct. But the disagreement suggests that Tolkien's version of the northern heroic ideal may in fact have differed from the truth about it.

In a way, then, one could see Boromir as representing the old ideal, the Anglo-Saxon ideal, which is giving way (as it must) to Aragorn, the modern, perhaps Christianized, ideal. It is hard to imagine an Anglo-Saxon epic in which it would not be thought a wholly admirable thing to take the Ring and to use it against the enemy; the idea that power can corrupt and that valour in arms may not be the best course seems distinctly modern. LotR, then, could be viewed as a work that shows a shift in the heroic paradigm, if you will, somewhat like "Beowulf" or, I don't know, American Graffiti - not, perhaps, an intra-Legendarium shift, but rather a real world one.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Aragorn is indeed confident and proud, but he is also, I think, humble in what may be a peculiarly modern sense. I think that this is one way in which Tolkien's heroic ideal differs from the Norse or Anglo-Saxon or even Homeric ideal

Aiwendil, especially considering the thrust of Tolkien's "Homecoming" supplement to the Battle of Maldon, I think you are quite correct.

In a way, sending Frodo to Mt. Doom could be considered similar to letting the Vikings across the causeway-- not the way to win the battle, and a nasty way to sacrifice all your allies, too. As Beornoth was viewed by the old fellow combing the battlefield for the Earl's corpse, so Boromir viewed Gandalf, Elrond, et al-- lunatics who threw away a practical hope for victory for some overblown ideal. The difference is, I think, in where trust is placed. Boromir, like Beornoth, trusted in valor and strength of arms, whereas Gandalf and Elrond trusted, or at least hoped, for what we might loosely call a 'tactical eucatastrophe.'

[Lalwendë]

It's also interesting to consider that, by all rational standards, it was a terrible mistake for the "good guys" to be standing about singing while the Orcs are dragging the captured Hobbits further and further away. But as badly as the company needed to take off after the kidnapped Hobbits, it was even more essential that they show and define who they are. Unlike the Orcs who let their comrades die without giving them a second thought, Aragorn and his companions take time to show respect and honor for those who have fallen, even if it puts them further behind the kidnappers. To gain time by disregarding a fundamental principle--that of respect for an individual life--is not something Tolkien could countenance in his "heroes".

Picking up on what Child says above, I think it was entirely natural that Tolkien had his characters respect their fallen comrade in this way. With his experiences in the trenches he would have known this characteristic of 'good soldiers' only too well. In the trenches time was taken to engage in such seemingly time-wasting activities as acts of worship, and there are many tales of soldiers bringing back fallen comrades from no man's land, despite the risk to themselves. As an ex-serviceman and conservative (with a small 'c') Englishman he would have been one of those men who understand and respect the fundamental humanity of such behaviour.

Throughout the books he shows how those on the side of good respect their dead and do not allow their bodies to be despoiled. Burials also occur after the battles of Helm's Deep and the Pelennor Fields. Admittedly, there is a little more time after these battles, but even in 'the field' Theoden's body is swiftly removed, and if they were not under threat, then it would be natural to give Boromir the best burial they could given the resources available to them.

[davem]

I'm not sure that Boromir is boasting on Aragorn's behalf. Its as likely that he is challenging him. If this is the case them we do have a figure who takes a similar part in AS legends - Unferth in Beowulf. It seems to me that Boromir is requiring Aragorn to prove himself worthy of the claims put forward for him/by him.

I can't help feeling that Boromir actually wants Aragorn to be who he claims but can't bring himself to simply accept those claims. Boromir's role is as a stirrer of unrest, forcing the hero to prove himself worthy. Obviously Aragorn is aware that he will have to do exactly that.

Boromir has a long journey to take till he becomes worthy of the funeral he recieves in this chapter - another reason I'm uncomfortable with the idea that he was just made use of as a 'disposable' character so that Tolkien could throw in a 'viking' style funeral. Tolkien held such ancient traditions in too high a regard to just hand one out to the first available character. The very form of his funeral confirms his trancendence of his old self.

We see Boromir's spiritual growth throughout the few chapters he is present, from a negative, proud, demanding, even carping, figure, to a true hero deserving of the end he recieves. In this sense I see it not so much as Boromir representing the 'old' ways being replaced by the new as symbolised by Aragorn, but rather as Boromir himself evolving from the one stage to the other. In many ways he actually symbolises the movement from the mythic 'Middle earth' to the world of Men that will replace it. He begins as a classic hero of legend & ends as a 'Christian', having laid down his life for his friends. In a sense he moves from being an 'Isildur' to an 'Aragorn'.

[Bêthberry]

Lalwendë, I think you are certainly right. The repatriation of bodies of fallen soldiers is an important part of military history. And, besides, Tolkien's The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth is all about Torhthelm's and and Tídwald's efforts to recover the body of Beorhtnoth after the battle, a bit of a difficult task as he had been decapitated. According to Tolkien, historically, the body was recovered by the wish of the Abbot of Ely and buried in the abby, sans head.

For those of you discussing the meaning of ofermode, it is well to remember that it is found only in that line in The Battle of Maldon, at least as far as our extant sources of Old English literature allow us. So all discussion about translating it depend upon interpreting that one context. It is used to describe Beorhtnoth's action in voluntarily, without military need or pressure, yielding ground to the enemy.

For those of you discussing the heroic "wind" poems and the manner of their creation, here's some support to your idea from Tolkien:

'Will shall be the sterner, hear the bolder, spirit the greater as our strength lessens.l'
It is here implied, as is indeed probable, that these words were not 'original,' but an ancient and honoured expression of heroic will; Beorhtwold is all the more, not the less, likely for that reason actually to have used them in his last hour.

Quotations all taken from Tolkien's "The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthem's Son" This is about the Old English battle poem, "The Battle of Maldon", which Helen is referring to.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Like everyone else, I like the manner in which Tolkien moves the story from that of the Fellowship to the fellowships/friendships that will dominate the rest of the tale. To answer Rimbaud’s question: I don’t have a favourite narrative strand – or, rather, I do but it is always the strand I’m not reading. Tolkien is a master of getting us hooked on a story, and then cutting away to another. So I rush through the new one, wanting to get to the old one, but by the time I’m nearing the switch I don’t want to switch as now I’m sold in the current story. So as this chapter begins I’m desperate to know what will happen to Frodo and Sam, but I know that by the time I get to the end of Book III and Shadowfax is bearing Gandalf and Pippin to Gondor, I won’t be able to bear switching! Ah well. To return to the current topic.

I think that in addition to a structural change, this chapter marks a thematic shift of no small import. To this point in the tale, the forces of Good have been attempting to counter the forces of Evil point-for-point. The Black Riders are seeking the Ring, get the Ring to Rivendell; Sauron needs the Ring, destroy the Ring. This has been accompanied by a militaristic/strategic kind of thinking: the Nine Walkers against the Nine Riders. They have been reacting to Sauron and trying to defeat him in open combat. This is why Boromir (*groan, not him again* ) has fit in with the Fellowship: he’s all about this kind of action. But with the splintering of the Fellowship into other friendships I think we’re moving into a kind of middle way.

Small groups of friends are neither about rugged individualism and the self-sufficiency of the single/individual hero (Boromir), nor are they dependent upon the kind of mass thinking that lies behind a larger group. The difference between a single hero (Boromir) and a heroic group (the Fellowship) is not all that great: both are in a way singular and linear, unidirectional. Boromir wants what’s good for Boromir: it’s all about the hero. The Fellowship is all about the Quest, and the individuals involved be darned. Gandalf can fall, but Aragorn is there to take over. Boromir can die, but it’s OK because he’s paying back what he owed to the Fellowship and protecting other members of it. But with friendships things are different. With the splintering of the single-issue Fellowship (all Quest all the time), there emerge friendships in which other issues which are as important as the Quest are given room and time for attention. Boromir is given his due: Gandalf was not afforded a proper mourning period and certainly no formal rite by the Fellowship, they had to keep going. Merry and Pippin are not left to torment even though, let’s face it, their fate – so far as they know at the time – is irrelevant to the War. Sam and Frodo are able to join with Gollum and forge a relationship with him.

The ‘breaking’ of the Fellowship is felicitous as it frees up the heroes from the same kind of singularity of thought and intention that shackles Sauron. His one great weakness, and his only strategic error, is never being able to think that they will seek to destroy the Ring. It’s the one eventuality he never prepares for. All he can think about is the Ring. So too with the Fellowship: their sole reason for being, the only thing that forges them into a heroic company is the Ring. Sauron wants the Ring in Mordor; they want the Ring in Mordor. With this kind of imprisoning logic removed, then the friendships become free to work through issues that will prove to be of immense importance, not just because they actually help for the success of the Quest and the War (Merry and Pippin stir up the Ents; Gollum falls into the Fire) but they make that success more meaningful – or, rather, they demonstrate the meaning of that success. Good triumphs over Evil not just because one heroic company manages to defeat another evil company, but because Merry and Pippin learn the value of loyalty and oaths of allegiance, because an Elf and a Dwarf overcome their differences, because Frodo (and Sam) learn the value of Pity toward Gollum, and on.

That’s why I really believe that Aragorn is the focus of this chapter far more than Boromir. Aragorn, alone of the Fellowship, realises that the time for single-mindedly pursuing the Quest is over:

‘My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Bearer is in my hands no longer. The Company has played its part. Yet we that remain cannot forsake our companions while we have strength left.’

Aragorn is the one who decides that they must rescue the hobbits; he takes the time to give Boromir the funeral he deserves; he is more concerned with comforting Boromir in his last moments than in ignoring the human needs of this person in favour of the “more important” tactical issues of who is where. The story of the Fellowship is over, but the stories of the people are just beginning.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Re Aragorn in Amon Hen:

Aragorn, on the other hand, remains undecided. And it is for him to make his final decision, guided by the circumstances and with the support of those in whom he trusts. It is not the function of the Seat to make his mind up for him. (Sauce)

I am overwhelmed. And I accept my error.

~*~

I see this chapter as a relief for Aragorn, as Gandalf's responsibility that was placed--untimely, I might add--on his shoulders were lifted. Perhaps, seeing the effect of the Ring on a Man like Boromir made Aragorn realise "the fate of the Bearer is in my hands no longer"--he would have been the greatest threat to the Quest.

And the other choice he was pondering while in Lothlórien--going to Minas Tirith--was made irrelevant for the moment. It seems to me that by his choice--going after Merry and Pippin--, he abandoned his kingly "ambitions" for a time, by not joining in the offence--accompanying the Bearer to the Fire--or in the defence--Minas Tirith.

And to think these two choices so troubled him after the departure of Gandalf. Indeed, most of the things we most think of--or worry about--are not likely to come to pass.

[HerenIstarion]

I'm not sure that Boromir is boasting on Aragorn's behalf. Its as likely that he is challenging him.

I failed to communicate. Yes, he is challenging him, but in doing so, he first focuses what claims there've been made as if they were formulated by Aragorn himself in warrior boast. And following Aiwendil's commentary to what my brief post haven't elaborated upon, it is significant that Aragorn both knows the code and is reluctant to use it. I.e., when he's pressed on by Boromir to act along code patterns, he does so, but one can't help feeling that would there be no Boromir to press the point, Aragorn would not use 'boast form' at all

***

Originally Posted by Fordim

The ‘breaking’ of the Fellowship is felicitous as it frees up the heroes from the same kind of singularity of thought and intention that shackles Sauron

Verily true (and all the rest of it)

I'd like to elaborate another point - the breaking is also a positive event, from one particular point of view - it frees each of them (Frodo/Sam apart) from duty that may have been unbearable. One can't help wondering, what exactly Elrond knew at their setting out? Cf:

. The further you go, the less easy will it be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will. For you do not yet know the strength of your hearts, and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road.'
`Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens,' said Gimli.
'Maybe,' said Elrond, `but let him not vow to walk in the dark, who has not seen the nightfall.'
'Yet sworn word may strengthen quaking heart,' said Gimli.
`Or break it,' said Elrond. `Look not too far ahead! But go now with good hearts! Farewell, and may the blessing of Elves and Men and all Free Folk go with you. May the stars shine upon your faces!'

I keep on distracting you from main development of the chapter, I know, but that seems important. Indeed, if they all have been sworn to follow Frodo, would not they have been obliged to let Merry and Pipping be carried away? We know Elrond was against M/P going along, and we know he was proved wrong in the long run, but, besides Fellows own sakes, does he [Elrond] count for possibility of splitting due to Merry and Pippin and their inexperience in the 'adventures'. Have he counted on it? Have he sought to make the choice, if ever there would be a need for one, easier (in a sense he made it possible in the first place by 'laying no bondage' on them) and harder at the same time (for he made it possible for them to have a free choice). My answer would be - possibly, and even probably.

Elrond himself helped to be 'proven wrong in the long run' - if he made Fellowship take oaths of helping Frodo, Merry and Pippin would have perished, and Elrond would be in a position to say 'I tole' ye so!'. Lor bless him he did not made them do it

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

And the other choice he was pondering while in Lothlórien--going to Minas Tirith--was made irrelevant for the moment.

Boromir does of course entreat Aragorn to go to Minas Tirith to save his people and Aragorn promises him that it shall not fall. Given his 'destiny' Aragorn is, in a way, already obligated to defend Minas Tirith, but this promise to Boromir on his 'death-bed' is a weighty one to make.

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

One can't help wondering, what exactly Elrond knew at their setting out?

I think that Elrond was just exercising good common sense:

For you do not yet know the strength of your hearts, and you cannot foresee what each may meet upon the road.

At the outset, no one could know for sure what would befall the Fellowship. A good degree of 'flexibility' was required to cater for the precisely the kind of eventuality that occurs in this Chapter. The only one sworn to follow Frodo to the end was Sam, and he would have done his utmost to stick with Frodo, vow or no vow.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by SpM

I think that Elrond was just exercising good common sense

Right, SpM. I've been exaggerating

With no connection to that exchange, let me bring to your attention the following:

Is there any hope of redemption by The SaucepanMan

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

For those of you discussing the heroic "wind" poems and the manner of their creation, here's some support to your idea from Tolkien:
Quote:

'Will shall be the sterner, hear the bolder, spirit the greater as our strength lessens.l'
It is here implied, as is indeed probable, that these words were not 'original,' but an ancient and honoured expression of heroic will; Beorhtwold is all the more, not the less, likely for that reason actually to have used them in his last hour.


Quotations all taken from Tolkien's "The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthem's Son" This is about the Old English battle poem, "The Battle of Maldon", which Helen is referring to.

So, the lament for Boromir was basically a kind of general purpose, fill in the blanks, funeral dirge?

It seems to me that the 'Maldon' lines are a 'general' statement while the Boromir verses are specific to the individual & the circumstances.

Besides, isn't it a bit 'off the peg' - shouldn't Boromir have had something 'made to measure'? I'm not sure the idea of them simply customising a standard 'shrink to fit' poem fits in with the mood of the occasion.

[Rimbaud]

Most societies develop funeral rites that follow set traditions, or 'off-the-peg'. Same for births and marriages, etc. I don't think following a respected formula diminishes the meaning, in this instance.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I’ve been thinking about the discussion about the nature of Amon Hen, and figured I would go to the source to see if there are any clues – by “the source” I mean, of course, philology.

In Old English, æmen means “uninhabited, desolate, desert”. An associated word is æmenne which means simply “solitude”. I think that this is pretty straightforward – Amon Sul and Amon Hen are both deserted places. More importantly, they are places of solitude, in the sense that in each there is a solitary battle or trial of the heroes (Frodo by the Witch King and then Sauron; Aragorn with himself as in each place he doubts his leadership and his decisions).

The “Hen” has proved a much more interesting riddle. In Old English, hen is a form of hēan which means “lowly, despised, mean, or abject”. But it can also mean “to raise, exalt or extol” (in certain contexts, when used with the associated words hien or hyn which mean “high” or “raised”). “Hen” is also sometimes used as prefix, in which case it is being used as a form of hēanes which means simply “something high, a high place, height.” Finally, it is also associated with “hienan” which means to “fell or prostrate” or “abase, humble, insult”, “accuse or condemn.”

I think it should be obvious by now the ways in which this little word hen can be applicable to the action of this chapter and the previous one. The Seat of Seeing is indeed in a high and desolate place, but it also marks a high point and a low point in the adventure. It is the place where Boromir is made abject, possibly even condemned of a crime or sin, but it is also where he is exalted and raised back up. I think that Aragorn as well goes from a low to a high, in terms of his spirits and his sense of doubt becoming a sense of heroic purpose. Perhaps Frodo, too, moves from a depressive and worried low to some kind of exalted height, when he heroically undertakes the Quest by himself. This is also a kind of ‘condemnation’ of him, however, insofar as he is now condemned to a terrible journey.

So putting it together I would think that “Amon Hen” means a place of solitary trial, in which the hero is raised up and exalted from a state of lowness. So it would appear that the Seat of Seeing is dependent, in some way, upon both the individual using it and some other power which watches over the locale. It is a deserted place of solitary trial (Frodo, Boromir and Aragorn all have their individual battles with their own inner doubts and despair). At the end of these struggles, they are all of them ‘exalted’ in some way, or raised up and aided during it. Frodo is aided by Gandalf during the struggle with Sauron, but it is Sam who lifts his spirits and goes with him to Mordor. Boromir is exalted by Aragorn. All this would appear to bear out my idea that this chapter is really about Aragorn, though, insofar as he exalts himself – unlike Boromir or Frodo he does not turn to another to lift him from his abject lowness, but proceeds to become the King-Hero he is meant to be by dint of his own efforts. Perhaps this is why Frodo sees so much from the Seat, while Aragorn does not: Frodo requires and will require the aid of others for the completion of his journey, so he is ‘given’ some vision by the place, whereas Aragorn must rely upon himself – he will be alone on his individual journey, and he is sufficient to the task, so the place does not need to give him any aid in the form of a vision. He sees only what he needs to see in order to make up his own mind.

Just throwing ideas around now…

[The Saucepan Man]

Is there any hope of redemption by The SaucepanMan

Darn fine thread that, though I say so myself.

I understand your reasoning, Fordim, but I am not sure if the Amon Hen 'effect' can be deduced from the experiences of the characters that you refer to because I do not see its influence as affecting its surroundings. As I see it, its effect only impacts (if at all) on those who visit it at the time that they visit.

Frodo's resolve to go to Mordor alone does not come to him at the Seat. It was there all along, even when he left the company. But his visit to the Seat (as well as his encounter with Boromir) does go towards confirming what he knows deep down is the 'right' thing to do, so to that extent he is affected by its influence.

Nor does Aragorn find his resolve at the Seat. He finds nothing there, and continues to despair after he has departed from it. As I said earlier, it is not the function of the Seat to make Aragorn's choice for him. He must do that for himself (although he does have support here from Legolas and Gimli and is aided by his subsequent knowledge of what has befallen the other members of the Fellowship), so I agree with your reasoning in that regard.

As for Boromir, well he never visits the Seat, and it has nothing to do with his repentance. That comes from within him, when he finally sees the folly of his erstwhile plans.

So, I am not sure that we can draw many conclusions as to the nature of the Seat from what happens to the characters before or after they have visited it, or from those characters who do not visit it at all.