Breeding for fear

[Nils]

I've recently stumbled on a theory and would like to bounce it off people.

When Eru made it possible for his Children to reproduce, he gave them the power to create new Children. He did not give this power to the Ainur. They had great power, but they did not have the power to reproduce.

There is an example of Ainu reproduction, but it is with one of the Children. Luthien was the product of a Maia and an Elf. When it came down to it, she was not an Ainu. She was a Child of Eru. There is no reproduction without a Child of Eru. When there is, the product is another Child of Eru.

I ran across a passage in Myths Transformed where Tolkien wrote that Morgoth twisted men in such a way that they reproduced with orks. He wrote earlier that Melkor could create creatures, but they would be the 'puppet' type creatures similar to the pre-Eru enhanced Dwarves.

Combining these two possibilities leads me to my theory on the creation of Orks as we know them:

Orks are a cross between men and puppet Orks. The puppet Orks bring hroar, while the men bring the fear. These new Orks will have free will within a totally twisted body.

[Mahal]

No...I tthink it is because of the power of melkor that he somehow has twisted men, or elves to orks. And if you cross Orks with men then you get Uruk-hai wich Saruman has done.

[Manwe Sulimo]

Orcs were Elves that Morgoth had captured, tortured, and perverted.

[Nils]

The Elf origin theory was proposed in the Silmarillion, which as an account of Elvish myth, not history.

In Morgoth's Ring you can find where Tolkien was going away from the Elf origin theory and wanted to work to a Man origin. Here is something Chris Tolkien published in Morgoth's Ring:

This then, as it may appear, was my father's final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men, and if 'the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought' it was Sauron who, during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his Master when he returned

Even if one is going to hold on to the Elvish origins theory, my theory would still work. Just replace men with elves.

[Voralphion]

And if you cross Orks with men then you get Uruk-hai wich Saruman has done.

The Uruk-Hai were not originally bred by Sauraman and were not a cross of men and orcs. The Uruk-Hai were a breed of orc (wholly orc) and bred by Sauron. Yes, Sauraman was supposed to have bred orcs and men to create half-orcs and goblin-men, but they were not Uruk-Hai. It is in the movie the Sauraman bred the Uruk-Hai by crossing orcs and men, and this is totally wrong, in the books the Uruk-Hai were bred by Sauron.

[Adanadhel]

Voralphion,

Where is this info about Uruk Hai from? How do you know that they were not bred by Saruman?

The only thing I can find is from Morgoth's Ring:

"There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the third age, Saruman rediscovered this [the interbreeding of men and orcs], or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of orcs and men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile." (Myths Transformed, 419)

I did not think it was ever stated outright where the Uruks came from. I always thought it was implied that they were bred by Saruman by interbreeding with men. My assumption was that the Men-orcs produced the likes of Bill Ferny and the Orc-men were the Uruk Hai.... But i have never known for sure......

[Noxomanus]

Orc-Men and Man-Orcs definately weren't Uruk-Hai. I imagine the former as something between men and orcs in looks,the latter as super-Orcs with all Orc features more strongly developed.

By the way,Ainur were definately able to multiply.The Valar didn't seem inclined to do this,while several Maia might have hybridised with lesser creatures.

[Nils]

By the way,Ainur were definately able to multiply.

Where did Tolkien say this?

[Bill Ferny]

Return of the King, Appendix A, The Stewards:

In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath.

I've been corrected on this, myself [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. However, the fact that the uruk-hai were bred by Sauron does not negate the possibility that they were a type of orc-men. However, this is a matter of speculation.

My assumption was that the Men-orcs produced the likes of Bill Ferny...

I resent that remark. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

Hmmm...this is an interesting thought. I'm assuming since both Morgoth and Sauron couldn't create on their own, they could only corrupt, Orcs can't reproduce on their own, they have to be spawned. Of course, I may also be supporting that theory because the thought of Orc reproduction camps is just SCARY!

[Nils]

, Orcs can't reproduce on their own, they have to be spawned.

No, they just couldn't decide to mate on their own. Morgoth could create a body that could reproduce, he just couldn't give it a soul.

Aule created the Dwarves with the ability to reproduce. The only thing that Eru gave them was the fear.

[Sharkû]

cf. http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=002488

[Nils]

Thank you for the link. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I've only gotten about half way through the first post, but it is great!!!!

It reminds me of someone from another board. I was told he used to post here.

[Adanadhel]

Thanks Bill... here I am looking through home for hours... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Nils]

Sharku,

Thanks again for that link. After reading the thread, I am convinced that obloquy is the one who started me down this trail.

I was wondering if you'd answer a question that I have concerning Orks. You said:

When looking at Tolkien's quote "In summary: I think it must be assumed that 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fëa", we should be careful to distinguish between language and the act as talking just as well as the author did. Intelligence and the understanding of the comlpex system of language still seem to be exclusive traits of a fëa, unlike the skill to produce sounds physically, up to the imitation of speech devised by rational beings.

This means that you believe that Orks do have a fea?

Going back to the eagle issue, what about Gwaihir? He spoke a complex language. From The Two Towers, The White Rider

"A burden you have been," he answered, "but not so now. Light as a swan's feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. Indeed I do not think you need me any more: were I to let you fall, you would float upon the wind."

Gwaihir must have had a fea.

Thanks Sharku, I thought I had an answer to one problem, then you throw another one at me. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Do you have an answer for the eagle problem?

[Westerly Wizard]

"but Saruman's Orcs can endure it [the sun] even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!" (Two Towers "Treebeard"). Though spoken by the fallible Treebeard, I don't know why anyone would doubt that the Uruk-hai of Saruman were not a mix of Orcs and Men when taken alongside the "Myths Transformed" quote: "There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile."

Even the words "wickedest deed" parallel Treebeard's comment, "A black evil." And the dichotomy of Men-orcs and Orc-men allows for the Uruk-hai and the goblin-men/orc-men that Saruman had fighting for him.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

This means that you believe that Orks do have a fea?

Tokien says in Letter 153 that they can be redeemed, therefore they have a fëa. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Melkor twisted elves so they become orcs. But what about the Uruk-hai? I think they're a perfect example of men being forced to breed with orcs.

A question: is it possible that Eru created Ainur in a way that they were unable to breed, because he feared that some of them would become powerful beyond all control? Just a thought... [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[Nils]

]A question: is it possible that Eru created Ainur in a way that they were unable to breed, because he feared that some of them would become powerful beyond all control? Just a thought...

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, not can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Melkor twisted elves so they become orcs.

According to the Silmarillion (Elvish Myth), you'd be correct. Even so, how did Melkor twist the Elves? The breeding theory could be a way of 'twisting'.

If Melkor could just change hroar, then why didn't he just go out and turn all those who opposed him into slugs and throw them into a giant bowl of salt?

[obloquy]

A question: is it possible that Eru created Ainur in a way that they were unable to breed, because he feared that some of them would become powerful beyond all control? Just a thought...

No, because the Ainur could breed when embodied.

As for the orc origins discussion, there is a good bit to read about it in Myths Transformed from Morgoth's Ring. Here's a good thread which is not exactly on-topic, but more or less related: Could an orc be uncorrupted?. And there's a related post or two in this thread: Eagles: Heroes Without Depth.

[ May 31, 2003: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Reginald Hill]

It won't work on my computer but I am pretty sure that the Encyclopedia of Arda has good information on orcs and Uruk-hai. The website is http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/

[Sharkû]

I am not sure whether we can draw a definite conclusion to orcs' possession of fëar on the basis of their [lack of] ability to produce speech and a language. We most likely could if we knew more about 'the' Orcish language itself (as far as that term can be used at all).
If they not only did not have a language of their own (cf. eg. Appendix F), but did not even produce small parts of their langue themselves, one might be able to say with great certainty that this shows the lack of a fëa in these orcs. Even in that case however, it does not totally disprove the existance of some orcs which might have had a fëa nonetheless - they just did not have a (lasting) influence on the Orcish language.

Another point would be whether the relative creation of a language based entirely on already existing languages, in this case, mainly Westron, could already count as the Tolkienian 'talking' and therefore as a sign of a rational soul.
That it cannot serve as proof of the opposite is shown at the example of the Ents. While they ascribe their whole language to the Quendi (being that Entish is a complex system of using apparently solely Elvish roots), creating that system is clearly stated to be their own achievement (cf. Appendix F).

[Nils]

I wonder why the creation of a language is important when it comes to determining if a race had a fea or not. Didn't the thrushes have their own language that the Dwarves understood?

By the way, I was mistaken when I thought obloquy was the one that led me down this road. It was Saulotus, if Maerbenn is to be trusted. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]