Thuringwethil - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Kiah · 05-05-2003, 07:45 PM

Thuringwethil the fell bat of Melkor, the messenger of Morgoth. Thuringwethil took the shape of a vampire it said in the Sillmarilion. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] What do you think Tolkien thought about vampires for his books?
Were they like the Dracula vampires? Or something else more ancient?

Afrodal Fenyar · 05-06-2003, 09:29 AM

They were bats. Big, nasty looking bats with big teeth and some evil spirit living inside them. But definitely not Draculas.

Scott · 05-29-2003, 11:23 PM

I'm sorry, but Dracula is a name, not a classification. However, it seems that Tolkien did intend his vampires to take on the contemporary traits of vampires of his time... eg. Stoker's renditions, as well as the early horror movies.
Which brings me to a question that's been annoying me for a while. Why would Tolkien, such an avid lover of mythologies and breaker of past molds, base his descriptions of vampires off of contemporary attitudes? It seems to me that the incubus/succubus legends along with the Greek lamiai legends would be more up his alley. Even the wurdalok legends from eastern europe/western asia (Russia) seem to be more of a logical choice to base Thuringwethil on. It could have been that he was drawing from some of the South American vampire legends, but I never really pegged him as having much interest in South American folklore.
Can anyone shed some light on this topic?
~Scott

Finwe · 05-30-2003, 07:37 AM

I agree with Scott. I think that Tolkien based his vampires on the incubus/succubus legend and the Greek lamiai.

Afrodal Fenyar · 05-30-2003, 08:44 AM

Quote:

I'm sorry, but Dracula is a name, not a classification

I know that, but I used that as a classification of those man-like vampires.

akhtene · 05-30-2003, 06:07 PM

Frankly, I don't recall Thuringwethil playing any important role in Silm. To my mind she's mostly needed, so that Luthien could wear her hide /or cloak/ as a disguise. And what creature is better suited for it than a human-sized bat with large leathery wings and an extremely ugly 'face'?

Oricon Ancalime · 06-05-2003, 11:09 AM

I always liked Thuringwethil, even though there's not a lot of information on her. Maybe it's way out there, but I always thought of her as Death- like Eru intended her to be a Grim-reaper-ish figure but she became dreadful when she went over to Sauron's side.

***Sharkû*** · 06-05-2003, 11:42 AM

There are no 'vampires' in Tolkien's work. "His [Tolkien's] vampires" is an oxymoron.
"Vampire-form" (S77) does not constitute being a Vampire, certainly not so if skin-changing is implied. Beorn is a man, not a bear.

The most likely interpretation is:
"Vampire [...]
3. Zool.
a. One or other of various bats, chiefly South American, known or popularly believed to be blood-suckers." (OED² on CD-Rom, vamnpire, my stress"

Bear in mind that 'vampire-form' Thuringwethil had 'iron claws' and was thus virtually a bat and not a suave Romanian. Same goes for Sauron.

[ June 05, 2003: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

Oricon Ancalime · 06-05-2003, 12:54 PM

Too bad. The world can always use more suave Romanians [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Kiah · 06-05-2003, 03:31 PM

I wasn't thinking of exactly a suave Romanian [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] but I agree with Scott's assessment of the vampire idea. I should go brush up on South American mythology.

05-05-2003, 07:45 PM	#1
Kiah Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2003 Location: When I figure it out I will tell you Posts: 26	Thuringwethil Thuringwethil the fell bat of Melkor, the messenger of Morgoth. Thuringwethil took the shape of a vampire it said in the Sillmarilion. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] What do you think Tolkien thought about vampires for his books? Were they like the Dracula vampires? Or something else more ancient? __________________ In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

05-06-2003, 09:29 AM	#2
Afrodal Fenyar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 94	They were bats. Big, nasty looking bats with big teeth and some evil spirit living inside them. But definitely not Draculas. __________________ "Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing. To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!" ~Eomer

05-29-2003, 11:23 PM	#3
Scott Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ohio/Grey Havens Posts: 183	I'm sorry, but Dracula is a name, not a classification. However, it seems that Tolkien did intend his vampires to take on the contemporary traits of vampires of his time... eg. Stoker's renditions, as well as the early horror movies. Which brings me to a question that's been annoying me for a while. Why would Tolkien, such an avid lover of mythologies and breaker of past molds, base his descriptions of vampires off of contemporary attitudes? It seems to me that the incubus/succubus legends along with the Greek lamiai legends would be more up his alley. Even the wurdalok legends from eastern europe/western asia (Russia) seem to be more of a logical choice to base Thuringwethil on. It could have been that he was drawing from some of the South American vampire legends, but I never really pegged him as having much interest in South American folklore. Can anyone shed some light on this topic? ~Scott __________________ Those who the Gods would destroy, They first make mad. ~Those Crazy Greeks

05-30-2003, 07:37 AM	#4
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I agree with Scott. I think that Tolkien based his vampires on the incubus/succubus legend and the Greek lamiai. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

05-30-2003, 06:07 PM	#6
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 390	Frankly, I don't recall Thuringwethil playing any important role in Silm. To my mind she's mostly needed, so that Luthien could wear her hide /or cloak/ as a disguise. And what creature is better suited for it than a human-sized bat with large leathery wings and an extremely ugly 'face'? __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

06-05-2003, 11:09 AM	#7
Oricon Ancalime Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2003 Location: New York Posts: 14	I always liked Thuringwethil, even though there's not a lot of information on her. Maybe it's way out there, but I always thought of her as Death- like Eru intended her to be a Grim-reaper-ish figure but she became dreadful when she went over to Sauron's side.

06-05-2003, 11:42 AM	#8
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	There are no 'vampires' in Tolkien's work. "His [Tolkien's] vampires" is an oxymoron. "Vampire-form" (S77) does not constitute being a Vampire, certainly not so if skin-changing is implied. Beorn is a man, not a bear. The most likely interpretation is: "Vampire [...] 3. Zool. a. One or other of various bats, chiefly South American, known or popularly believed to be blood-suckers." (OED² on CD-Rom, vamnpire, my stress" Bear in mind that 'vampire-form' Thuringwethil had 'iron claws' and was thus virtually a bat and not a suave Romanian. Same goes for Sauron. [ June 05, 2003: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

06-05-2003, 12:54 PM	#9
Oricon Ancalime Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2003 Location: New York Posts: 14	Too bad. The world can always use more suave Romanians [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

06-05-2003, 03:31 PM	#10
Kiah Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2003 Location: When I figure it out I will tell you Posts: 26	I wasn't thinking of exactly a suave Romanian [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] but I agree with Scott's assessment of the vampire idea. I should go brush up on South American mythology. __________________ In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.