Could Durins Bane have become more powerful over time

[R.R.J Tolkien]

A question for the lore masters. Could Durins Bane have become more powerful over time. So could it have gained strength in anyway from the first age to the third?

thanks.

[Inziladun]

I'm far from being a "lore master", but I don't see how the Balrog could have gained power on its on. That additional power must have a source. Now, if it had laid its hands on Sauron's One Ring....

[Zigûr]

It seems to me that it was in the nature of evil beings to lose their power over time, not gain it. The power would have to come from somewhere, as Inzil has pointed out regarding the Ring. "Power", spiritual potency or what have you does not appear to emerge ex nihilo in Professor Tolkien's work.

[denethorthefirst]

Short Answer: No.
The world of Middle-Earth is entropic, i.e. everything becomes less grand and less powerful over time. This includes not only evil beings like the Umaiar but everyone in Ea, even the Valar become less powerful and diminish over time, not only because they, like Melkor, poured a lot of their Power into Arda during its creation, but because even they can't overpower this trajectory.

I fail to see how the Balrog, who at this point in the story (in the late Third Age) is already in a reduced and diminished (fully incarnated) state, should be able to accomplish something which even Manwe can't do. The only being in the story that "breaks" this rule is, curiously, Sauron who, after the making of the One Ring, got somehow more powerful. How exactly he achieved that peculiar feat ist never explained by Tolkien. The Extra-Power can't really come from the domination of the other Rings, because the Ring-scheme failed spectacularly (with the Elves and Dwarves). So where does all that Power come from? I speculate that the One Ring somehow allowed Sauron to tap into and control/usurp the "Morgoth Element", thats one explanation that would fit the nature of Ea.

In any case, that would not help the Balrog, because I don't think that he would be able to master the One Ring. Tolkien wrote that of all the characters in the story only Gandalf "MIGHT be EXPECTED" to master it, a remarkably vague and hypothetical statement by Tolkien (i personally don't think that Gandalf would've been able to achieve it). I guess that, if the Balrog somehow got possession of the One Ring, that he would become nothing more than a beefed up version of Gollum, becoming ensnared by the ring, retreating deeper and deeper into Moria, fleeing the outside world. After all, thats all the Balrog ever really wanted: to be left alone.

[R.R.J Tolkien]

Thanks for helping guys, not the answer i hoped for dammit

[Rhun charioteer]

Regarding the Balrog's power its difficult to say how much it declined if it did in significant measure. It(or he?) managed to stalemate Gandalf and to counteract his spells.

If the Balrog had left Moria alive-it would have wreaked utter havoc on northwestern middle earth and been Sauron's co-belligerent in the WoTR even if Sauron could not control it(is it male).

Though maybe its power did decline-after all it managed to survive the war of wrath in which most of Morgoth's servants were slain so if it could survive that it was likely quite powerful.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

Short Answer: No.
The world of Middle-Earth is entropic, i.e. everything becomes less grand and less powerful over time. This includes not only evil beings like the Umaiar but everyone in Ea, even the Valar become less powerful and diminish over time, not only because they, like Melkor, poured a lot of their Power into Arda during its creation, but because even they can't overpower this trajectory.

I fail to see how the Balrog, who at this point in the story (in the late Third Age) is already in a reduced and diminished (fully incarnated) state, should be able to accomplish something which even Manwe can't do. The only being in the story that "breaks" this rule is, curiously, Sauron who, after the making of the One Ring, got somehow more powerful. How exactly he achieved that peculiar feat ist never explained by Tolkien. The Extra-Power can't really come from the domination of the other Rings, because the Ring-scheme failed spectacularly (with the Elves and Dwarves). So where does all that Power come from? I speculate that the One Ring somehow allowed Sauron to tap into and control/usurp the "Morgoth Element", thats one explanation that would fit the nature of Ea.

I would definitely agree Middle-earth suffers from entropy, a decline from the grand to the mundane. I would disagree that Sauron got more powerful. Actually, his only true power was the domination of lesser beings, in a netherworldly ability to corrupt, and the Rings allowed him to do that with greater efficacy. However, Sauron as a Maia exhibits the same personal decline that his predecessor Morgoth did; but whereas Morgoth dissipated his power into Middle-earth itself, Sauron placed his potency in the One Ring.

His armies were crushed by Numenor, but his prime ability, to corrupt, eventually defeated Numenor; even so, his corporeal state was such after the fall of Numenor that he could never manifest any other persona than that of the dread dark lord and the eye. Again, against the Alliance of Elves and Men he was defeated by lesser beings, Elendil and Gil-Galad, and he had to hide in a spiritual state for thousands of years in order to regenerate his form.

But his corruption remained and his armies grew, due in greater part to the continued existence of the Nazgul (and defeating the Northern Dunedain was part and parcel of that corruptive ability). By the time of the War of the Ring, Sauron was stationary in Barad-dur, for without the One Ring, his main facet of power, he could do nothing but work through his Wraiths and his carefully indoctrinated vassal states. Even so, his emissaries and armies were spectacularly defeated on the field of battle at the Hornburg and Pelennor Fields. Granted, his armies were still vast within Mordor, but the Great Corrupter had himself been deceived, for in his stationary state ensconced in Barad-dur, brooding for centuries on the One Ring, he had become a pawn of his own creation not much different than Smeagol.

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

In any case, that would not help the Balrog, because I don't think that he would be able to master the One Ring. Tolkien wrote that of all the characters in the story only Gandalf "MIGHT be EXPECTED" to master it, a remarkably vague and hypothetical statement by Tolkien (i personally don't think that Gandalf would've been able to achieve it). I guess that, if the Balrog somehow got possession of the One Ring, that he would become nothing more than a beefed up version of Gollum, becoming ensnared by the ring, retreating deeper and deeper into Moria, fleeing the outside world. After all, thats all the Balrog ever really wanted: to be left alone.

Gandalf, by all accounts, was more powerful than Saruman (as evidenced by the intuitive actions of both Cirdan and Galadriel), and perhaps nearly equal to Sauron himself, save in the diminished form of the Istari, entrapped in mortal form to complete his mission. But the question of whether or not Gandalf could control the One Ring is moot. He admitted himself he could, but through him the power to do good would be corrupted and he would become like Sauron himself, much like he became Saruman (or as Saruman should have been) after his resurrection. Galadriel mirrored Gandalf's take on the One Ring when she was tested.

But I agree with you on the Balrog and the Ring. I don't think the Balrog could wield the full power of the One Ring, particularly since he was already a being corrupted by Morgoth in the deeps of time.

[Belegorn]

Tolkien claimed in a letter that Sauron was enhanced while wearing the Ring he created. Assuming Durin's Bane had some skill in creating such tools it might be possible to augment his power even in a world of waning.

[denethorthefirst]

Regarding Sauron and Numenor, Tolkien actually wrote in a Letter that "Sauron's personal 'surrender' was voluntary and cunning: he got free transport to Númenor! He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenoreans." (Letter 211) So its not exactly clear if Ar-Pharazon "defeated" Sauron or how the battle would have went if Sauron had decided to fight it out. Considering how the War of the last Alliance went, it may have ended with a victory for Ar-Pharazon, but we cant be completely sure of that. After all, Sauron was severely weakened after the corruption and the drowning of Numenor (and his "death"). So a hypothetical war may have went differently during Ar-Pharazons landing. Not only because Sauron was a lot more powerful, but also because Ar-Pharazon did not have the help of the Elves (or the Dwarves for that matter, both of whom fought with Arnor/Gondor during the War of the last Alliance).

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I would definitely agree Middle-earth suffers from entropy, a decline from the grand to the mundane. I would disagree that Sauron got more powerful. Actually, his only true power was the domination of lesser beings, in a netherworldly ability to corrupt, and the Rings allowed him to do that with greater efficacy. However, Sauron as a Maia exhibits the same personal decline that his predecessor Morgoth did; but whereas Morgoth dissipated his power into Middle-earth itself, Sauron placed his potency in the One Ring.

I would argue that that statement is not supported by the text. Tolkien himself wrote in his Letter Nr. 131: "While he [Sauron] wore it [the One Ring], his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power [his original power that he poured into the ring, minus the "extra-power"] existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'."

--> http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Letter_131

Where then does that "extra power" that "enhanced" Sauron come from, because the One Ring must draw from some source after all? Sauron cant create "power" ex nihilo? Tolkien never explicitly spells it out as far as i am aware, but i speculate that the One Ring was a tool that somehow allowed Sauron to manipulate, draw from, "tap into" the Morgoth Element, the dispersed power of his former Master. After all, gold is one of the elements that is associated the most with Melkor and Mount Doom may have been some kind of "Hot Spot" regarding the Morgoth Element. Maybe that is how all the Rings of Power worked, because Melkor was not the only Ainu that poured his power into Arda during its creation. Nenya, the Ring of Water, would then allow a sufficiently powerful wearer to draw from the dispersed Power of Ulmo, Vilya (the Ring of Air) from the dispersed Power of Manwe, and Narya (The Ring of Fire) from the dispersed Power of Aule.

All that seems highly "blasphemous" of course, because if the Rings worked like that, then the Noldor of Middle-Earth are essentially "usurping" the power of the Valar, taking the place of the Gods, replacing them, more or less, pure Hubris! But it would fit the whole Ring-theme, the initial motivation (to re-create Valinor/Paradise in Middle-Earth) and the character of the Noldor, their rebellious, stubborn nature (and the character of Sauron: after all, the Noldor received the necessary technology and know-how from him!).

All conjecture and speculation of course. But it is the only explanation that makes sense. The Ring-Scheme failed completely, the Elves never use their Rings and the Rings also do not work as intended with the Dwarves. Only after his initial Plan failed completely did Sauron give the Rings out to human leaders, surely a poor substitute for powerful elven lords. I fail to see how exactly Sauron became "enhanced" and more powerful after this political manoeuvre. No, the ability of the One Ring to dominate the lesser Rings cannot sufficiently explain the stated growth of Saurons power, that has to come from somewhere else.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

Regarding Sauron and Numenor, Tolkien actually wrote in a Letter that "Sauron's personal 'surrender' was voluntary and cunning: he got free transport to Númenor! He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenoreans." (Letter 211) So its not exactly clear if Ar-Pharazon "defeated" Sauron or how the battle would have went if Sauron had decided to fight it out.

The only reason Sauron 'capitulated' to Ar-Pharazon was that the mere sight of the Numenorean army was so intimidating that Sauron "could not trust even the greatest of his servants to withstand them".
Sauron may, or may not, have had evidence that his forces would refuse to fight out of fear, but at any rate he judged their chance of victory to be very small. Since Sauron's tendency was hardly toward feelings of inadequacy, I think his judgement was probably pretty sound in that instance.

[denethorthefirst]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The only reason Sauron 'capitulated' to Ar-Pharazon was that the mere sight of the Numenorean army was so intimidating that Sauron "could not trust even the greatest of his servants to withstand them".
Sauron may, or may not, have had evidence that his forces would refuse to fight out of fear, but at any rate he judged their chance of victory to be very small. Since Sauron's tendency was hardly toward feelings of inadequacy, I think his judgement was probably pretty sound in that instance.

Of course, you are right. Sauron made the prudent calculation to feign surrender, because he realized that he would probably lose the war. But he "surrendered" on his own, because he calculated that it would be better to achieve via stealth and cunning what he could not gain with brute force. Thats why i think that it would be wrong to say that Ar-Pharazon outright "defeated" Sauron.

The quote that you have mentioned is from the Silmarillion, chapter "Akallabeth": "And Sauron came. Even from his mighty tower of Baraddur (sic!) he came, and made no offer of battle. For he perceived that the power and majesty of the Kings of the Sea surpassed all rumor of them, so that he could not trust even the greatest of his servants to withstand them; and he saw not his time yet to work his will with the Dunedain. And he was crafty, well skilled to gain what he would by subtlety when force might not avail. Therefore he humbled himself before Ar-Pharazon and smoothed his tongue; and men wondered, for all that he said seemed fair and wise."
Another retelling of the incident is found in the chapter "Of the Rings of Power": "Yet there came at length a stay in the onslaught of Sauron upon the westlands. For, as is told in the Akkallabeth, he was challenged by the might of Numenor. So great was the power and splendor of the Numenoreans in the noontide of their realm that the servants of Sauron would not withstand them, and hoping to accomplish by cunning what he could not achieve by force, he left Middle-earth for a while and went to Numenor as a hostage of Tar-Calion the King.".

But we have to keep in mind that both the "Akallabeth" and "Of the Rings of Power" are supposed to be numenorean/gondorian accounts written from a gondorian viewpoint. The narrator(s) in those chapters is not all-knowing and, considering the perspective, appears all too eager to praise the numenorean power of old wistfully, even though he does not agree with Ar-Pharazon at all. Numenorean pride trumps all else. Even when Gondor was in possession of Umbar, the great monument that honored Ar-Pharazons "victory" over Sauron was left standing and it was only torn down (by the Corsairs) after Sauron declared himself openly in T.A. 2951. Gondor may oppose everything Ar-Pharazon stands for, but they still preserved the monument honoring his victory over Sauron, because it was a victory for NUMENOR. The same mentality is found in the aforementioned "numenorean" chapters. I would not go so far as to call the narrator(s) altogether unreliable, but his statements should be read with a little grain of salt. He is not all-knowing, he did not speak with Sauron, nor can he read his mind, how is he then supposed to know what went on in his head, how he viewed the military situation, his own strength, etc?

Still, the speculation of the narrator is probably correct after all and Ar-Pharazon may have been able to win that war. But i doubt that it would have been a walk in the park or that Saurons forces would have simply melted away and mass-surrendered like the narrator implies. The War of the Last Alliance went on for 12 years after all, and that host was very impressive, if we remember Elronds account during the Last Council. Yes, the Realms in Exile possessed only a fraction of the strength of Numenor at its peak, but then they had the help of all the Elves (of Lindon, Rivendell, Lorien, Greenwood, etc.) and the Dwarves of Khazad-Dum, so maybe, all together, they almost rivaled the strength of Numenor. Sauron was also a lot weaker as well, still traumatized from the downfall and by that point completely incarnated. And that war still went on for years ...

So in a potential War between Ar-Pharazon and Sauron a Numenor at its peak (but without the help of the Elves or the Dwarves) would have fought against a Sauron at his peak (before he spent a lot of his power in the corruption of Numenor, and before he lost his body in the Downfall). If Ar-Pharazons Numenor had won this hypothetical war, it would have taken at least a few years, and in the end, even if defeated, Sauron would have been able to just leave in a puff of smoke and escape further East, because, at this point, he was still able to change his shape at will or completely move without one! So even if Ar-Pharazons Numenor crushes the armies of Mordor after a prolonged campaign and a long siege of Barad-Dur, he can't really hope to defeat defeat Sauron, that is simply not in his power.

[Boromir88]

I would argue that that statement is not supported by the text. Tolkien himself wrote in his Letter Nr. 131: "While he [Sauron] wore it [the One Ring], his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power [his original power that he poured into the ring, minus the "extra-power"] existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'."~denethorthefirst

I think that Letter 131 quote is about Sauron's power to corrupt and dominate the minds and wills of others was enhanced, but the "power" Morthoron is talking about is Sauron's (and I have no better way to describe it) physical and spiritual power diminished.

Melkor descended into nihilism, since he didn't have the power of creation, he spent his power towards uncreation and destroying absolutely everything. Sauron never became a nihilist, nor was he an atheist. He never objected to Creation, nor stopped believing in the "Gods" only believed they neglected Middle-earth, and didn't care what the Valar or Eru did so long as they kept ignoring his primary motivations to bulldoze Free Will.

The quote from Letter 131 is about in creating the Ring Sauron's power to "dominate and control hearts and minds" was enhanced, and that power was not diminished even if he did not wear it:

Sauron became thus almost supreme in Middle-earth. The Elves held out in secret places (not yet revealed). The last Elf-Kingdom of Gil-galad is maintained precariously on the extreme west-shores, where are the havens of the Ships. Elrond the Half-elven, son of Earendil, maintains a kind of enchanted sanctuary at Imladris. On the extreme eastern margin of the western lands. But Sauron dominates all the multiplying hordes of Men that have had no contact with the Elves and so indirectly with the true and unfallen Valar and gods. He rules a growing empire from the great dark tower of Barad-dur in Mordor, near the Mountain of Fire, wielding the One Ring.

But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished.' Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place. This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants.

This "power" that was enhanced, is referring to Sauron's empire-building in Middle-earth. His motivation was not to undo creation, but to corrupt and bend it to his will. By creating the ring, his power of corrupting and bulldozing free will was enhanced, but he had to put much of his inherent power into the Ring. Weakening his own physical/spiritual power, which is Morthoron's point in Sauron no longer having the power to appear in a fair form. And after he's killed by Gil-galad and Elendil, he's unable to rebuild his ring-finger. Gollum says "He has nine fingers, but they are enough." In another Letter Tolkien surmises Sauron could essentially be physically killed enough times to the point were he can't rebuild, and it took him much longer to rebuild a body after being killed during the Last Alliance:

After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Numenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination).'~Letter 200

So, I would argue, the power the Ring "enhanced" was Sauron's attempt of empire-building in dominating "minds and wills" of others, but this did diminish his inherent power. What Tolkien refers to in Letter 200 has the "line between the indestructible mind and being and the realization if its imagination". The link between what one could call "will power" and "real (or maybe physical) power" weakened by Sauron's creation of the Ring.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I think that Letter 131 quote is about Sauron's power to corrupt and dominate the minds and wills of others was enhanced, but the "power" Morthoron is talking about is Sauron's (and I have no better way to describe it) physical and spiritual power diminished....

So, I would argue, the power the Ring "enhanced" was Sauron's attempt of empire-building in dominating "minds and wills" of others, but this did diminish his inherent power. What Tolkien refers to in Letter 200 has the "line between the indestructible mind and being and the realization if its imagination". The link between what one could call "will power" and "real (or maybe physical) power" weakened by Sauron's creation of the Ring.

Thank you, Boro. That is precisely what I was getting at when I stated:

"Actually, his only true power was the domination of lesser beings, in a netherworldly ability to corrupt, and the Rings allowed him to do that with greater efficacy. However, Sauron as a Maia exhibits the same personal decline that his predecessor Morgoth did; but whereas Morgoth dissipated his power into Middle-earth itself, Sauron placed his potency in the One Ring."

Morgoth corrupted the very earth, whereas Sauron corrupted minds. For that, Sauron was much more of a modernist in method than the god of chaos, Morgoth.