What Powered The Three?

[Ivriniel]

I have stumbled on an inconsistency -- maybe -- in Ring Lore. We are told Sauron had to imbue his Ring with his very essence to amp it up to critical threshold, enough to subsume dominance over the lot.

Sauron did not touch the Three. I don't see anywhere anything about 'three Elves' pouring 'their essences' into Elvish Rings, (or for that matter, any vampiric 'nett draining' of Elvish People's on mass). So how did Celebrimbor manage to create *three* Rings - one of which if we look at Galadriel's realm halted time or something.

Was the Time Stop effect unique to her Ring. What was the "special" power equivalent of Ereinion's Ring (the most powerful) and the Third - Fire. So what.

Does anyone know?

[Pitchwife]

Hail, Giantfriend! Long time no read.

It boots little, methinks, to consider the Rings of Power as engines dependent on either an inbuilt fuel cell or an external energy source; nor do I think that the way Sauron imbued the One with his will and power was categorically different from the way every maker imbues their creations with some of their own personalities, values, desires, and the greater the art the greater the maker's control over what and how much of them gets put into the product (see the little story The Faithful Stone in UT for an illustration of the principle).

Now Sauron, he was all about power and domination, so the will and power to dominate was what he put into his creation. The smiths of Eregion desired other things - preservation of what they kept, restoration of (a semblance of) what they had lost, so it was these desires that guided them in the making of their rings.

As for the Three, it would seem that Nenya was an instrument of preservation, used by Galadriel to create and preserve in Lothlórien an echo of the Undying Lands she had been exiled from, and fiddling with time was just part of its modus operandi. About Narya we have Círdan's words when he gave it to Gandalf:

Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales, The Istari

'It was entrusted to me only to keep secret, and here upon the West-shores it is idle; but I deem that in days ere long to come it should be in nobler hands than mine, that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage.'

Judging from this, I'd guess that Narya's special purpose was to inspire and wake courage and dedication. About Vilya we have very little, but it may have had something to do with Elrond's renowned healing powers (restoration).

We don't know how the Three accomplished their functions, but I don't think they were powered by anything else than the enchantments wrought into them by the art of their makers, and to explain how these worked would mean to explain the nature of Elven 'magic' in general. We might as well ask what powered the cloaks of the Fellowship or Sam's hithlain rope or the Lady's starglass. They work the way they do because they were made to, and that's it.

Or at least this is my take on the matter.

[Andsigil]

Good question.

None of this is canon; just some semi-educated w.a.g.-ing on my part, but I've always had the impression that Middle Earth was a world born of immense magical energy that depleted slowly over the eons.

The most powerful dwarves, men, and elves were always the oldest. This is especially true of the elves who were either old enough to have seen the light of Valinor, and/or those of the oldest and most distinguished lineages. Galadriel was the last of the elves in the 3rd age, for example, who saw Valinor, and she remained the most powerful because of it.

Celebrimbor, though born in Middle Earth, was nonetheless the grandson of Feanor, the greatest elven smith and the son of Curufin, the son most like Feanor. "Feanor" meant "spirit of fire"and was written in a way (at least to me) which gave the impression that he radiated inner energy and power. That light was barely dimmed in his grandson.

Compare Feanor's creation, imbued(?) with his inner power and energy: the Silmarils. They were Valar-level and world-changing relics. Similarly, the Three Rings were Celebrimbor's creation, imbued with his inner power and energy. They, too were world-changing relics, but for all their greatness, they were slightly more modest (Maiar-level if you will?) in their power.

I hope I was able to articulate my version of all this with at least a modicum of acceptability.

Cheers.

Addendum: This depletion of power over generations is not in a straight line, but more of a trend. Much as the stock market has peaks and valleys, while overall going up over the decades, so does the inherited power of ME heroes have peaks and valleys while going down. This explains why, for example, Aragorn could hold his own with the heroes of old (the quote or quotes on this escape me, sorry) despite being around at the advent of the Fourth Age.

[Belegorn]

I've no idea what the power source is for the Three. Perhaps in their design to do specific things, they draw on the power or essence of the wielder to work. The One itself draws on the power that is already in it and it can only be fully accessed by some really mighty folk.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I've no idea what the power source is for the Three. Perhaps in their design to do specific things, they draw on the power or essence of the wielder to work. The One itself draws on the power that is already in it and it can only be fully accessed by some really mighty folk.

It isn't apparent to me why Celebrimbor would have endowed the Three with different respective powers. They weren't intended for any specific user, and the "Fire", "Air", and "Water" designations may have thus been only for cosmetic reasons with respect to their stones.

The purpose behind their making was to promote general healing and preservation, and that power would have to have been drawn from the fea of the maker(s). The specific use of that power and its manifestation would have been colored by the individual will and desires of the keeper.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It isn't apparent to me why Celebrimbor would have endowed the Three with different respective powers. They weren't intended for any specific user, and the "Fire", "Air", and "Water" designations may have thus been only for cosmetic reasons with respect to their stones.

The purpose behind their making was to promote general healing and preservation, and that power would have to have been drawn from the fea of the maker(s). The specific use of that power and its manifestation would have been colored by the individual will and desires of the keeper.

I agree. I think the way the Three were used does not necessarily correlate with some "specialisation" on the part of the respective Rings, just the priorities and necessities of their wielders. For instance, Rivendell was not quite a "Land out of Time" to the same extent as Lothlórien, but it seems to me that similar effects of "staying" and preservation were used through Vilya and Nenya in their respective locations.

What Círdan said of Narya, by this logic, could probably be applied to all of them; it may have simply been that Narya was the one Círdan was discussing at the time.

Interestingly, Círdan's claim that Narya was "idle" in his care suggests that Lindon was not under the same "staying" effect as Rivendell or Lórien.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Interestingly, Círdan's claim that Narya was "idle" in his care suggests that Lindon was not under the same "staying" effect as Rivendell or Lórien.

Agreed. Mithlond predated the creation of the Three, and had not been established with any parallel to Rivendell or Lórien. Its role had nothing to do with "preservation", and Círdan seemingly could find no use for Narya there.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Or, perhaps, as a Sinda Cirdan wasn't as prone as the Noldor to play with the laws of Arda and Time.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It isn't apparent to me why Celebrimbor would have endowed the Three with different respective powers. They weren't intended for any specific user, and the "Fire", "Air", and "Water" designations may have thus been only for cosmetic reasons with respect to their stones.

In part. But then in Letter No. 301: Fireworks... appear in the books because they are part of the representation of Gandalf, bearer of the Ring of Fire, the Kindler: the most childlike aspect shown to the Hobbits being fireworks. Note the word repeated in 'The Istari': Círdan... gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red. "For," said he, "great labours and perils lie before you, and lest your task prove too great and wearisome, take this Ring for your aid and comfort... I deem that in days ere long to come it should be in nobler hands than mine, that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage." (Gandalf also uses fire magic on Caradhras (where he says its use announces "Gandalf is here"), and in the fight with the Wargs. Also, although obviously predating the invention of rings, Gandalf in The Hobbit took out several goblins with a "flash;" in the draft for the fight in the Chamber of Mazarbul Gandalf's unnamed spell vs the Balrog "singed an inch off my eyebrows."

It could also perhaps be said that the core of Galdriel's power in Lorien flows from the Silverlode or the Naith where Silverlode and Anduin come together; and her Mirror is a basin of water.

The connection of Elrond and Imladris to Vilya is obscure, but there is his name ("Starry vault"), and the fact that Rivendall above its deep gorge is bounded only by the heavens (although of course the Bruinen seems to be at least as important)

[Ivriniel]

Hello there posters and readers.

@Pitchwife hail Pitwife. May the drommond's granite masts and sails bear thee far from home and safely to return.

Thank you for the interesting materials. Sauron's will for domination was somehow echoed in the Ringspell, with much of his native power poured into the Ring. Some tie of sentience, or presence of Sauron's evil will was permanently present in the Ring, and certainly, the Ring had great power to influence, corrupt and enslave.

The Ring's measure in that regard needed to exceed that of the [is it combined power] of each Elf and her/his Elven wielders? Was it the Fea or the Lorewise-ness of individual Elves that was part of the base 'threshold' level Sauron needed to exceed? And did each Ring add to that measure of critical difference. The Elves took off their Rings when the echoes of the Ringspell were discerned, and Sauron was able to -- was it perceive only? the minds of the wielders of the Three when they wore their Rings.

@Angisil - great to see you. interesting point about non-linear depletions. Shadowfax. It's interesting that The Silmarils did not deplete Feanor, even though they were assays he could not replicate again in a second creation. I wonder, then does this mean that Celebrimbor's assays were his equivalent to one-off feats of mastery? Celebrimbor also made the headache-jewel, the Elessar. Like the Three, (in one version of the Gem) it made things green and young in Beleriand where it was stored.

@Wiliam

Hey there - interesting materials. Thank you for the quotes too. Preservation is some feature of the Three, though exactly what that means, is implied and stated, but in different ways in the mythology. You point out that Narya we see 'kindling hearts to courage', put as the Ring of Fire. Gandalf described himself as "Keeper of the Secret Fire", although I was never sure if he meant that in the context of Narya or not. Preservation through, perhaps resistance to domination, because of instilled courage. Nenya - the Ring of Adamant and the Ring of air - and that's a very interesting idea about the meeting of the flowing Silverlode and Anduin as premise for power. Adamant always seemed to imply 'hardness' or 'steadfastness', which seems to imply a preservation power about holding and sustaining, which certainly is consistent with Time Stop idea about Lorien. Vilya - water - blue stone of sapphire I presume, and considered "mightiest" of the three, and presumably, Elrond's power to heal was implicated in the Ring. Even though it seemed to influence the waters of the Bruinen as well.

@Zigur - you raise an interesting point about what it was that Cirdan mentioned to Gandalf. What was Idle about its placement in Mithlond? Presumably use of a Ring 'announces' location or presence of the wielder. I suspect that the Three also acted in synergy. That is Preservation as each wielder acted in concert in some unified capacity.

@Inziladun - I wonder why the Ring of Fire went to a water harbour. It's such a contrast isn't it.

@Belegorn - Hello there. I think you might be onto something. I have been withholding ideas about power and the 'essence of creation' and the Rings somehow as conduits of Ea that imbues materialism, and spiritualism.

Back Later

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

The Ring's measure in that regard needed to exceed that of the [is it combined power] of each Elf and her/his Elven wielders? Was it the Fea or the Lorewise-ness of individual Elves that was part of the base 'threshold' level Sauron needed to exceed? And did each Ring add to that measure of critical difference. The Elves took off their Rings when the echoes of the Ringspell were discerned, and Sauron was able to -- was it perceive only? the minds of the wielders of the Three when they wore their Rings.

See, I'm not sure this is a question of exceeding a given power level. If we must needs use technological metaphors I'd suggest a different angle: I imagine that the art of Ring-making as Sauron taught it to the Gwaith-i-Mírdain, the 'blueprint' for making Rings of Power, included from the beginning (unbeknownst to them) a hidden 'interface' in every ring that left it open to access from outside, and that the One was designed to access these interfaces and thus allow Sauron to hijack the other Rings and hack their functions. In other words, did the One rule the others because of its exceeding power, or because it and they had been specially designed for the purpose? If the latter, it all boils down to the difference in power between Sauron and whoever held the other Ring.

Zil and Zig (), my soul's ease doesn't depend on whether each of the Three had unique powers or properties or not, but I feel kind of vindicated by William's Letter quote. I half remembered discussing this in some forgotten thread which I managed to unearth today: Elven Rings in the 1st Age. The discussion there may be of some interest to anybody interested in Ring-Lore in general and the Three especially, as may the thread about Nenya and the Headache Jewel I linked in my post.

Anyway, here's what I thought back in 2009:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife as a young, eager and diligent wight who hadn't yet learned to space his paragraphs

Vilya was the Ring of Air, Nenya the Ring of Water. If any of the Three gave its wielder special power over water, it would have been Nenya, not Vilya.
But this leads me to another question. This thread, and the one about Nenya and the Elessar, have made me think a bit about the specific virtues of the Three, in other words the nature of the power each of them conferred on its wielder.
Each of the three is named after one of three elements - Air, Water, and Fire; at first glance, this looks like they gave their wielders power over the respective elements. Now Gandalf, who had Narya, certainly showed exceptional skill in the handling of fire (fireworks, naur an edraith ammen, wielder of the Flame of Anor etc.), but being an incarnate Maiar, he certainly didn't depend on a Ring for this; as for Elrond and Galadriel, I don't see them controlling Air and Water in any obvious way. So what does it mean?
In esoteric thought, the four elements are associated with different faculties of the human mind/soul. Applying these associations to the Three Rings, we get:
Vilya - Air - reason. The chief role of Elrond in LotR and The Hobbit (apart from his being a great healer) is offering counsel, giving advice to others based on his wisdom and knowledge.
Narya - Fire - will and passion. This is the most obvious correspondance: Círdan gave Narya to Gandalf 'for the kindling of all hearts with courage', to strengthen their hope and determination to oppose Sauron.
Nenya - Water - emotion, intuition, the subconscious. This is the least obvious, but (to me at least) it somehow resonates with Galadriel's love and yearning for timeless beauty, as well as the scrying power of her mirror.
I'm not saying any of this was on Tolkien's conscious mind, but it seems to fit, and it may be worth considering if we speculate what use 1st age elves might have made of the Three.

What d'ya think?

[Belegorn]

I think the Elven Rings were made to arrest time, to bring Aman to Middle-earth as was Sauron's pitch to the Elves. In the First Age the Elves generally left Aman for empire in Middle-earth, to establish themselves there and be the rulers. The cessation of the effects of time may have been more important to those who had lived in the Undying Lands which probably accounts for the Rings coming from that people, the Noldor.

I would say the One ruled the others because of its exceeding power and due to the design taught by Sauron to them. I think this common design was the means by which Sauron could link his Ring to the others. Otherwise it'd have been a seperate type of Ring with the same powers, but the bearer could not extend his will from the One to the others.

Originally Posted by Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency;

[Zigûr]

I think the "thing of surpassing potency" description of the Ring is not mutually exclusive with the common "built-in vulnerability" theory which argues that Sauron's contribution to the Ring-lore which made the Three involved making them in a way that would be vulnerable.

It may have worked like this:
1. The built-in vulnerability aspect allowed the One to influence or control the Three and their bearers.
2. The "surpassing potency" of the One allowed the One to control the works wrought with the Three.

This, however, does not seem consistent with the notion that Sauron would not have needed the One to overthrow the defences of Lórien had he come there in person.

[Belegorn]

Tolkien mentioned in a letter that even if he was not wearing the Ring, Sauron was in rapport with its power. He would not be diminished.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

@Inziladun - I wonder why the Ring of Fire went to a water harbour. It's such a contrast isn't it.

Celebrimbor secreted the Three with the three senior Eldar of the Second Age: Gil-Galad, Galadriel and Cirdan. Maybe they chose based on color coordination- GG's shield was blue, Galadriel preferred to wear white, and red looks pretty sharp with grey.

[Mithadan]

Regarding the Silmarils, I think they were "powered" by the light of the two Trees. I do not have access to my books, but I seem to recall that in HoME, it is stated that Elvish "magic" is a function of their own nature and inherent power, so the act of creation requires that some of the maker's essence be poured into the item created. But their light had an outside source.

Regarding the Three Rings, and presumably the Seven and the Nine, some portion of their makers' essence would have been instilled into their creations. Some of Sauron's power would have been placed in the Seven and the Nine as he assisted in their creation. Some of the power of Celebrimbor and his smiths would have been placed in the Three. But the power of the Three to act may have been drawn from other sources. Pitchwife discusses their nature above and their links to the elements, air, water and fire. Their power may come from those elements to some extent.

The role of Elves in Middle Earth was, in part to heal the damage caused by Morgoth and do what they could to fix Arda Marred. They are described as being far more linked to nature and their surroundings than Men. This may have been part of the nature and purpose of the Three. Healing, preservation and staying the effects of time on their wearers and their people.

Has anyone ever considered the nature and intricacy of Sauron's plot? He spent decades or centuries instructing the Elves of Hollin and assisting them in the making of the Great Rings, with the intent to create the One in order to dominate the bearers of the various Rings and their people.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Regarding the Three Rings, and presumably the Seven and the Nine, some portion of their makers' essence would have been instilled into their creations. Some of Sauron's power would have been placed in the Seven and the Nine as he assisted in their creation. Some of the power of Celebrimbor and his smiths would have been placed in the Three. But the power of the Three to act may have been drawn from other sources. Pitchwife discusses their nature above and their links to the elements, air, water and fire. Their power may come from those elements to some extent.

It was said Feanor captured the light of the two trees when imbuing the Silmarils; certainly, a part of him went into his ultimate creation, but the act - or the art, really - of collecting the essence of a thing to create another is most likely what occurred when his grandson, Celebrimbor, and the other Hollin smiths created the three. If you actually consider the Silmarils from an essential standpoint, it is stated that at the end of the world Feanor will release the light trapped in his gems and with their light Yavanna will revive the Two Trees - such is the efficacy of Elvish craft.

I think the logical conclusion is that the scion of the Feanorions would imbue his great art in the same manner as his ancestor, so that the three elements air, fire and water (the earth being beneath the haughty Elves and a place fit for only dwarves ) were imbued into the rings so that the preservative powers of each element was present in an essential manner.

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Has anyone ever considered the nature and intricacy of Sauron's plot? He spent decades or centuries instructing the Elves of Hollin and assisting them in the making of the Great Rings, with the intent to create the One in order to dominate the bearers of the various Rings and their people.

But even with Sauron's input, the Three remained unsullied by his black hand. Proof of this is that Sauron never gained dominion over them (while he wielded the One), and it seems the Dark Lord never quite figured out where they were. He may have guessed but it doesn't appear he knew for sure.

The plot itself was quite intricate, but for the greater part of its intent, it was a failure. Only Man succumbed to the lure of the Rings. It failed against the Elves utterly, and the success against the dwarves was so limited that Sauron ended up taking back the ones not eaten up by dragons.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

(the earth being beneath the haughty Elves and a place fit for only dwarves )

Haven't we sufficiently established that the Elves didn't consider the earth to figuratively be beneath them? On a more serious note, surely the Classical Elements of the Greek philosophers would have been disdained by Professor Tolkien, who preferred his ancient sources Germanic. The air/water/fire thing is difficult to ignore, however. I wonder how important he thought it was.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Proof of this is that Sauron never gained dominion over them (while he wielded the One)

I always thought that the reason for that was simply because the bearers of the Three literally took them off their hands when they heard Sauron incanting the Ring-inscription as he placed the One upon his finger.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The plot itself was quite intricate, but for the greater part of its intent, it was a failure. Only Man succumbed to the lure of the Rings. It failed against the Elves utterly, and the success against the dwarves was so limited that Sauron ended up taking back the ones not eaten up by dragons.

Which was characteristic of Sauron the whole way through: "he that strikes the first blow, if he strikes it hard enough, may need to strike no more. [...] Wise fool."

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Zigur

On a more serious note, surely the Classical Elements of the Greek philosophers would have been disdained by Professor Tolkien, who preferred his ancient sources Germanic.

I'm not aware of any evidence that Tolkien "disdained" Classical Greek (or Roman) culture or literature. That he was more interested in other traditions (not only Germanic but also Celtic and Finnish), even that he thought those traditions were unfairly neglected in favour of the Classics, does not imply disdain.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I'm not aware of any evidence that Tolkien "disdained" Classical Greek (or Roman) culture or literature. That he was more interested in other traditions (not only Germanic but also Celtic and Finnish), even that he thought those traditions were unfairly neglected in favour of the Classics, does not imply disdain.

I just realised I shouldn't have said "On a more serious note" because I was actually attempting to be facetious. Whoops.

[Ivriniel]

@Pitchwife

Yes, I think talk about Ringlore works better with terms such as "The Will of Galadriel was great, and her Fea that of the Line of the blending of the three kindreds of Elves and so, Nenya, Ring of Water was great to wield in her hands"....c.f. 'her fea+Ring threshold of power".....

I think ur technological metaphor though certainly is part of a two-fold method Sauron wielded.

@Belegon

Yes. I think the same. Preservation, and by a kind of unmarring of Middle Earth, or to extend what Celebrimbor must have discerned about Valinor through having, himself, probably seen a Silmaril (or two) in the War of Wrath. Certainly, coming from Feanor's line, who did somehow bring the Light of the Two Trees into the Silmarils, he must have been inspired in a way like his father was. He also made the Elessar (well, he 'did' in one of two renditions of the mythology). The Elessar was (apparently) generally, the progenitor to the Three in its preservation functions.

@Aiwendil

Hi there Aiwendil. I agree. I'm not sure it was disdain. Rather a move to a deeper or more personal mythology of his own, where he was initially more enamored of the classics.

@Mithadan

Hello Mithadan, great to see you I suspect you've tapped into something. The same 'process' of the imbuing of Silima with the Light of the Two Trees into the Silmarils is somehow a clue about Ringlore (at least Ringlore a-la Celebrimor o Eregion). And it has been my understanding that Lore of Artifacts in Middle Earth did require that a maker imbue an item with some of his/her essence. Melian, even in taking Elvish (kind of) 'body' an annexing Doriath imbued her power, with some irreversibility. I haven't looked up a quote, but I recall one. Likewise, Melkor in his various makings.

About Sauron's 'plot' as Annatar.....

@Morthoron

Hey there Mo_rhthoron great to see you here. Hope you have been well, and what must I write to get a blast (to make my day) hahaha kind regards....

I absolutely *love* the snippets of the Second Making with the breaking of the Earth by Morgoth after his return through the Doors of Night. And the spilling of the light of the Silmarils on Ezellohar.

Implications are that the light is indeed, as Mithadan states, something about Ea or Arda Unmarred, and linked to Eru in his Music.

Although Vilya is the Ring of Air (Elrond, and excuse my error upstream. I was expecting a Balrog Ski trip on the Ford of Bruinen, but with an (air) dinge hahaha) we have the author implying somehow that the Three had the Elements implicated.

@Zigur

Hello Zigur, great to see you also. Yes, makes sense. I have wondered much the same.

I've been wondering for a long time, if the innate vulnerability was perhaps, more about ....

[Ivriniel]

@All

Osanwe

We know from Tolkien's comments (thank you Mithadan for the materials) that Osanwe could be shut off, or denied, by will, and that an Elf could deny a Vala. (at least that's how I read it, in that fear elicits closure to another).

Anyhooz - the relevance.

I've been wondering if the vulnerability was a Ringlore 'Osanwe' perversion that Sauron imbued into the process of Rings, and that the major vulnerability was that Sauron could

DISCERN

An Elf bearing a Ring - ergo - strategic - vulnerability. He could deploy war forces where he knew the Ring keeper hadn't placed defences. Stuff like that. Tolkien cites similar concepts about the Stones and 'who could spy on whom' with the Master Stone being able to discern lesser Stones, without the viewer necessarily knowing.

Recall, he was in WWI and II where he grew up understanding that war outcomes were based on capacity to intercept coded messages during that time of proliferation of encryptions.

Thus - the "will" aspect of his "imbuing" needed to -- exceed that of the 'Osanwe' sort of 'thing' he devised in The Ring spell

Anyone care to comment?

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I always thought that the reason for that was simply because the bearers of the Three literally took them off their hands when they heard Sauron incanting the Ring-inscription as he placed the One upon his finger.

Yeah, that's the best take on that. Sauron had no hand in the creation of the Three and did thus have no clue what exactly Celebrimbor did with them. Presumably the guy had some intriguing ideas how to expand on Annatar's general 'Ring of Power' concept Sauron himself never thought about.

Sauron certainly would have figured out what the Three could do and how to use them for his own ends but nothing came of that when Celebrimbor literally took of the Three - and I actually think he literally wore the Three on his fingers when he heard Sauron speak/think those words about the purpose of the One Ring. In his hubris Celebrimbor could easily have intended to use the Three all for himself to make his Eregion the greatest paradise (and himself the most powerful Noldo) this side of the ocean.

Whether the Three - or the Rings of Power aside from the One Ring - had any power source in a conventional sense I don't know. But I doubt it. They weren't engines, after all. Even in the case of the One I'd not say that Sauron had to put parts of himself in there to keep the thing working but rather that this was an integral part of his wish/spell to control both the other rings and their bearers.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

We know that Gil-Galad gave Narya to Cirdan when he marched ioff to the Last Alliance, presumably since there was no point in bringing it along, he couldn't wear it. I think it highly likely that Elrond similarly stashed Vilya at Rivendell.

The Third Age was different, since the One was lost.

[cellurdur]

The rings enhanced the powers of the wielder and were used to preserve things. I would say that with all sub-creation a some part of Celebrimbor's own essence did go int the three. It's the case for all sub-creation in Tolkien.

I also believe just like how Celebrimbor (possibly) tapped into the power of the sun for the Elessar, he additionally tapped into some of the raw materials whether it be light, earth or water as a source of power from the rings.

What I think is controversial is that despite what Elrond says, I believe Celebrimbor in addition tapped into some small part of Morgoth's power and this is why they were linked to the One.

Preserving the world and stopping change, in my opinion was not a completely good act and went contrary to the nature.

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The rings enhanced the powers of the wielder and were used to preserve things. I would say that with all sub-creation a some part of Celebrimbor's own essence did go int the three. It's the case for all sub-creation in Tolkien.

I also believe just like how Celebrimbor (possibly) tapped into the power of the sun for the Elessar, he additionally tapped into some of the raw materials whether it be light, earth or water as a source of power from the rings.

What I think is controversial is that despite what Elrond says, I believe Celebrimbor in addition tapped into some small part of Morgoth's power and this is why they were linked to the One.

Preserving the world and stopping change, in my opinion was not a completely good act and went contrary to the nature.

I guess Celebrimbor could not go behind the concept 'Rings of Power' in his efforts. The basic spells/magics/forging techniques/whatever would have been the same in all the Rings of Power. The Three would be the least corrupt because Celebrimbor focused exclusively on his own Elvish preservation agenda and not on other things Sauron might also have put into the other rings.

Whether Elves (or Men) can put parts of themselves into their sub-creations in any real sense (and not just in metaphorical sense - like, say, 'he put his heart into his work') the way the Valar/Maiar could is completely unclear. I'm not sure how this is supposed to work.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

I guess Celebrimbor could not go behind the concept 'Rings of Power' in his efforts. The basic spells/magics/forging techniques/whatever would have been the same in all the Rings of Power. The Three would be the least corrupt because Celebrimbor focused exclusively on his own Elvish preservation agenda and not on other things Sauron might also have put into the other rings.

Whether Elves (or Men) can put parts of themselves into their sub-creations in any real sense (and not just in metaphorical sense - like, say, 'he put his heart into his work') the way the Valar/Maiar could is completely unclear. I'm not sure how this is supposed to work.

It seems like this is something that Men can't do except the ones with Elvish blood, but we have seen the Pukel men and Eol do similar.

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

It seems like this is something that Men can't do except the ones with Elvish blood, but we have seen the Pukel men and Eol do similar.

Oh, right, didn't think about that. However, Anglachel-Gurthang seems to be a very special weapon made from the iron of a meteor. I'm not sure we should attribute the ability of the sword to speak to parts of Eöl's spirit in the blade. That could well also be part of the special magic of the sword.

I mean, Gurthang also was able to kill Glaurung with just one stroke. Unless we assume the sword pierced his heart or cut through a very important artery this isn't very likely. It seems that sword had the power to kill pretty much any thing.

The Pukel men are a different case. No idea how those did work.

[denethorthefirst]

Even an Elda as powerful as Celebrimbor could not create "power" ex nihilo. So the power of the 19 Rings had to come from somewhere. Sadly, Tolkien never explained that, as he never in detail wrote about "magic" in his world and how it worked exactly.

I have two theories:


1. The elven Rings as a national project.

The Elven Rings were not the work of a single Elf but a collective project. The remaining Noldor in Eregion and Lindon pooled their collective power into the Rings, like Sauron did with the One, in order to achieve their objective: re-create Valinor in Middle-Earth. That way it also becomes believable how Sauron could hope to enslave the Noldor through the rings: the nineteen rings, if worn and used by the elven leaders, would give him access and control over their collective spiritual being. I do not quite believe that, its a bit of a wonky idea.


2. The elven Rings "tapped into" the dispersed power of the Valar.

There is the fan-theory floating around that the One Ring somehow enabled Sauron to control the "Morgoth-Element". Its a convenient theory that explains how Sauron somehow became more powerful after the forging of the One Ring even though his planned scheme utterly failed. What if the other 19 Rings worked in the same way, but instead of controlling the Morgoth Element they would allow the wearers to control the "elements" of the other Valar and other powerful Maiar, who, like Morgoth, although on a lesser scale, poured their power into Arda during its shaping?

For example: Narya, the Ring of Fire, would allow the wearer to control the Aule-(or Varda?)Element, Nenya, the Ring of Water, would allow the wearer to control the Ulmo-Element, and Vilya, the Ring of Air, would allow the wearer to control the Manwe-Element, and so on. Maybe thats why those three Rings were the most powerful of the 19 Elven Rings, because they allowed the wearer to control the dispersed power of the three most powerful of the Valar: Manwe, Aule (or Varda) und Ulmo. It would also explain why Vilya was the most powerful of the Three.

In this theory the Noldor would in effect "usurp" the power the Valar, and I am not quite sure if that could be considered as a „blasphemous“ act. It would certainly rhyme with the rebellious and somewhat anti-valinorean character of the (exiled) Noldor. Was this the „Sales-Pitch“ of Annatar: to use the dispersed Power of the Valar to create a second, independent Valinor in Middle-Earth? Maybe that could be one of the reason for the rift between the Wood-Elves and the Noldor in the Second Age? The Wood-Elves under Oropher maybe moved as far away from the Noldor as possible not only for political reasons but also because they rejected this form of magic as blasphemous, unnatural and antithetical to their Way of Life and their „back to the roots“-worldview?

But, if that is the case, then why did Gandalf, an emissary of the Valar, use one of the Three? So that part does not quite work. A lot of open questions. Of course I cant back that up with quotes, its just my head canon.