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#1 |
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Greetings!
My fist question as a complete new member: I have been assuming that Saruman crossed men and orcs to create the Uruk Hai. However when going through the books I only found one implication that this is the case. In thet two towers Fangorn once says that ha might have crossed orcs and men or that he have destroued men. Is there any other implications that Saruman acctually crossed men and orcs? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] |
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#2 |
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Prehaps i may add that I just saw the discussion on this subject below and that I therfore may rephrase my question. So: Is there any other indication than Treebeards that Saruman crossed orces and men?
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#3 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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I cannot remember anything from the trilogy other than Treeberad saying that. Tolkien described the Urka-hai as swart-eyed goblin men, who were larger than the mountain orcs who were with them.
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#4 |
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Actually Saruman, to my understanding, was breeding not Orcs and men for Uruk-Hai, but he was breeding Orcs with Goblin men. See,
Goblins, according to theory, were fast fighters, but they weren't as strong as the Orcs and they could move in daylight. But, Orcs, being slow but extremely strong, stronger than the Goblins could not move in daylight quickly. The Uruk-Hai Saruman bred was Goblins crossed with Orcs, so they were strong and fast and they could move in daylight at great speed. This is all according to theory, someone correct me if I am wrong please.
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#5 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Orc and Goblin are two names for the same creature. JRRT used them interchangeably.
Saruman did not cross Men and Orcs to create the Uruk-hai. Saruman did have Half-orcs (made by crossing Men and Orcs), but these are seperate from the Uruk-hai. Saruman did not create the Uruk-hai. Sauron had Uruk-hai as well.
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#6 |
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when did Sauron have the Urka-hai? i have never read anywhere that sauron had the Urka-hai. i always thought that it was mix between men and orcs. but, yeah, i'm not infallible.
-Lanwe
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#7 |
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"In the last year of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath."
LotR, App. A, (iv) Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion, The Stewards. [ November 28, 2002: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]
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Tar-Elenion |
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#8 |
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I am pretty sure Uruk and Uruk-Hai are different. I have seen a several references to Uruks and several to the fighting Uruk-Hai. Never however have I seen them used interchangeably.
As for the Uruk-Hai being part human, I think this is plausible if not exactly half and half, but more orc. |
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#9 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Uruk is a singular, Uruk-hai is a plural form (meaning something like 'Orc-folk'), 'Uruks' is the anglicized form of Uruk-hai. JRRT used the terms interchangeably (see, for example, Letter 78). Sauron had Uruk-hai, note that in RotK, Land of the Shadow, one of Sauron's soldier orcs is sent with a tracker to look for a small dwarf-man (Frodo), an Elf-warrior (Sam) and/or rebel Uruk-hai (any of those Orcs that may have fled from Cirith Ungol).
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Tar-Elenion |
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#10 | ||||
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"Uruk-hai" was not the plural form of "Uruk".
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[ December 15, 2002: Message edited by: Manwe Sulimo ]
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#11 | |||
A Northern Soul
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I agree with Tar Elenion, and frankly, Tolkien would too.
Letter No. 78: Quote:
Also, from The Two Towers: Quote:
And from Appendix F from The Lord of the Rings: Quote:
Because they headed to Isengard, the Fellowship had to split, as opposed to all of them going one place - Mordor - for the retrieval of Merry and Pippin and the destruction of the Ring. Saruman had already proved easier to ensnare than a hobbit. [ December 15, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]
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#12 | |||||
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Uruk-hai is _a_ plural form. Uruks is an a anglicization. 'S' is the English plural marker. Uruk is a Black Speech word. Uruks is not.
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We have three uses of -hai, Uruk-hai, Olog-hai, Oghor-hai it is never used as a singular. -hai would seem to mean something like folk, race. Quote:
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Tar-Elenion |
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#13 | |
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Thanks for clearing that up Tar-Elenion and Legalos. And thanks for including many of the entries.
But even if the Uruk and Uruk-Hai thing is cleared up, why then are the uruk-hai of isengard so much different from the apelike orcs of lubgburz? Quote:
[ December 15, 2002: Message edited by: Durelen ] |
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#14 |
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I suppose that would have something to do with the 'goblin men' part of them where they gained the ability to withstand sunshine (which neither groups of orcs had either).
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#15 | |
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What are they originally? Do they appear any place else?
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#16 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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The axe armed orc-men would be Saruman's 'half-orcs'.
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Tar-Elenion |
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#17 |
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Why doesn't someone do a big list of all the the different types, then we would have a basic sketch of things.
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#18 |
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Are Sarumans Uruk-hai and Saurons really that different? Note for example the 'huge' orc chieftain in Moria (one of the 'black Uruks of Mordor'). By his discription he seems larger than Saruman's Uruks. The Isendardrs are also noted for their long arms (see Helm's Deep) chapter.
Also Grishnakh and his orcs seem to have no more problem with the sun the Ugluk's troop. It is the Northerners who complain.
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#19 |
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hmm different types of Orcs
snaga: Slaves, bog standard orcs/goblins. They did the scurrying and made up the bulk of the army, but didn't do anything special uruks: I actually think an Uruk is merely a large Orc, not particuly an Uruk-hai. An Urukhai is always an Uruk, but an Uruk does not have to be an Urukhai (this is just an idea it could be wrong). Uruk Hai: high orcs, big fighting orcs. They are smarter than orcs, stronger and more skilled. I would assume that they are also less loyal, due to a few facts: 1) The orcs of Cirith Ungol think that S+F could be rough Uruk Hai 2) Saruman's Uruk Hai seem loyal because he offers them man-flesh (I wonder if man flesh is nicer than, say, cowflesh?) You also have Half Orcs: These are Orcs that have been crosses with the Dunlendings (sp) to give an army that has the strength of the orcs but the stamina and resistance to sunlight men have. Does all of that look ok? Question: Does JRRT actually ever say Goblin Men? That seems to be a Filmification somewhat.
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#20 |
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There is no such thing as "an Uruk-hai". Uruk-hai is a plural form. Saying "an Uruk-hai" is equivilent to saying "a Men" or "an Elves".
Uruk is the word "applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard" as Legalos noted above. Uruk-hai is a collective term for these great soldier orcs. The term "goblin-men" is used in the chapter Helm's Deep by Gamling, while Merry speaks of Men with 'goblin-faces' in Flotsam and Jetsam.
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#21 | |
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[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: Saurreg ] [ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: Saurreg ]
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#22 |
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There is a little bit in Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10) page 418 and 419 of the Houghton Mifflin edition which mentions Sarumans breeding program, but otherwise UT and LotR are the places to go (I dont recall there being any additional info in HoME 6-9, which deal with the writing of LotR).
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#23 | ||
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Galorme: Tolkien does speak of 'goblin-men'...
The Two Towers: Quote:
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#24 |
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Harken to Tar Elenion for he is steeped in lore of the Enemy's multitude of foul servants.
Again, I think it is helpful to remember that we really cannot have a very precise knowledge of Orcs. They didn't socialize with decent folk much, Morgoth & Sauron's memoirs have been held up in litigation for years, and Orcology was not a recognized science in Middle-Earth until well into the Fourth Age. Suffice it to say that by mixing mutilated Elven bodies and demonic energy Morgoth bred a race that appeared as the Glamhoth. A mysterious set of creatures of great variety and possible admixtures with other peoples or creatures. They remained for the most part strong limbed, enduring and quick, but small and stunted compared to Men and Elves, and unable to endure strong sunlight and other pleasant things. But the Dark Powers could breed them in enormous numbers, even if great warriors could mow them like grass, and so, alone they could not win battles for Morgoth and Sauron, without the aid of Dragons, Balrogs and evil armies of Men. But there was diversity, celebrate it, and some Orcs could live in different places better than others, and had different features and statures. Goblin and Orc are interchangeable terms but perhaps more properly applied to certain subsets. Some Orcs were big, and may have been known as Hobgoblins. Probably for some time in the Second Age Sauron had tried to create uniform groups of large, sunlight-resistent Orcs, and the Uruks, Shagrat and Gorbag may be so old, but it was not until the latter part of the Third Age that large numbers of these special Orcs were created, organized and recognized by the Free Peoples, as such, first, issuing from Minas Morgul and Dol Guldor. Later, they were the favored recruits of Saruman, who perhaps could not control them as directly as Sauron, but had to use mercenary methods, although he perhaps bred and cultivate his own Uruk-Hai, too, ala Lurtz of the Movie. Saruman also apparently polluted the kindred of Men with Orkishness, hence, the references to Half-Orcs, Goblin-men, and Orc-men, but there may have been such experimentation going on before, and human admixture may have contributed something to the breeding of Uruk-Hai, but I do not consider any such contribution to be primary.
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#25 | |
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So Goblin Men in the film (as him "He has bred Orc with Goblin Men") is incorrect, as the goblin men were in turn a subset of the Half Orcs?
Ok I am going to re-read some Uruk-Hai stuff in LoTRs. Ok the plural of Uruk is Uruks: Quote:
Final point: In JRRT's index he has two entries Uruk and Uruk Hai. They seem to be separate.
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#26 |
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Uruks is the anglicized plural.
S is not a plural marker in the Black Speech. The word Uruk-hai applies to all Uruks. Uruk is the singular form . Uruk-hai is a plural form indicating a group of Uruk-hai or all Uruk-hai. Unfinshed Tales, Index: "Uruks Anglicized form of Uruk-hai of the Black Speech; a race of Orcs of great size and strength." JRRT's Index has two entries: Elf and Elven-folk. [ December 17, 2002: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]
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#27 |
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Does it? so it does. Hmm ok maybe i was wrong. So is one "Olog-Hai" an Olog?
Thanks for that Elenion. I always assumed they were different.
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#28 |
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Yes, one Olog-hai is an Olog.
One thing to note though is that it was only later in the Third Age that Uruk, began to apply more specifically to the 'great soldier-orcs'. By implication it applied to all Orcs generally before that time.The usurpation by the greater orcs would seem to be a way to deny the 'humanity' of the lesser orcs.
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#29 |
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In reply to Galorme, I would say that Gandalf's dialogue with Elrond in Film I about mixing Orcs with Goblin-men does not exactly fit with anything from The Books, but it is not a great transgression, such as dropping Glorfindal in lieu of Arwen (which I for one fully approve of as a positive form of film adaptation/character compositing).
The point of Gandalf's news to Elrond (though not by way of the Council) is that the Traitor has this army. Film I is not saying that Saruman alone has created Uruk-Hai, though Lurtz and crew are his Uruk-Hai. Conceivably, in communicating with Sauron (after which he says to a lowly Orc "We've got work to do"), he may have received instructions about how to assemble a Uruk. With helpful "Arts of Devilry" hints from the Eye himself. To say that this process involves taking one part Orc and one part Goblin-Man (which would be a Man with goblin/ockish blood/traits) is not really apostasy. Some here at the Barrow-downs, such as Bill Ferny seem to side with that sort of interpretation. I think the Books suggest nothing more than that the introducion of half-orcs, orc-men, & goblin-men is a type of experimentation attributable to Saruman during the time immediately preceding the War of the Rings. While possible, there not necessarily anything The Books to suggest that Men were used in the orignal breeding and creation of the Uruk-Hai by Sauron, which first appear in a recognizable way hundreds of years earlier, and the genesis of which might go back to previous Ages.
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The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled. |
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#30 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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What I want to know is how they were created in the first place? I didn't see any women involved. How do you mix them and have them born (made) without women?
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#31 |
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Well, there I agree with Film depiction. Although on their own, Orcs may not be able to multiply at any greater a rate that Men or Elves, they can clearly be bred in vast numbers with the intervention of the Dark Powers. The 10,000s of Orcs at Mordor seems a bit hard to explain otherwise, when Gondor and Rohan have grown only marginally over much greater periods of time.
But in specific, I don't think there really are female Orcs in terms of secondary traits. I believe that quite literally, Orcs are "spawned" by mixing something from superficially androgynous pairs or whatever in pools of subterrainean muck, from which the appear ready to fend for themselves. There are some who ascribe to a belief in regular genders, intercourse, gestation and rearing of orc children by Orcs on a par with other peoples. Burrahobbit, I think, is very adamant about it. I think the gestation and rearing part defies common sense in view of the lack of nuturing and inter-person support witnessed amoung the Orcs we meet in the Books.
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The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled. |
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#32 |
Shadow of Malice
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I think Glorfindel being taken out of the FotR is a very big transgression, simply because Arwen doesn not have the ability do do what Glorfindel does. It makes the rest of the journey laughable because there is nothing stopping Legolas from being that powerful.
Airehiriel: How do you know you didn't see any women? They could be just is ugly and as mean as the men, doing all that the men do. Orcs multiply in the manor of Elves and Men. |
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#33 | |
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In the Silmarillion it says
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#34 |
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Dwarf women are often mistaken for men, and orcs know what a whelp is, and speak of them in ways that sugest they have them. So how would you know a female orc? plus- how do you know that women live long enough to nurture their own children? Orcs are likley anti feminist mysoginist rapeists who kill their women when the task of childbearing is completed. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
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#35 |
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I never thought to question the fact before, but this must be one of the great liberties that the films have taken, showing Saruman creating the Uruk-Hai. This is the BOOK FORUM, though. It seems like the only time we ever hear about half-men, half-orc creatures is through the eyes of the observers on the good side, Gamling, Merry/Pippin, Treebeard, etc. But it's pure guesswork when they go around saying, 'that man looks like an orc', 'that orc looks like a man'. We'll probably never know what the Dark Powers really did. The quote from the appendices makes it highly likely that Saruman did not create the Uruk-Hai. Maybe he adapted them to sunlight better, or maybe all Uruk-Hai are resistant to the sun. Since originally Morgoth made Orcs from Elves, it seems possible that Saruman or Sauron could somehow make improved Uruk-Hai from Men and Orcs. Of course, it's very realistic that we don't know what the Dark Powers did - the fog of war makes it difficult to uncover facts.
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#36 |
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(if im inturupting any conversation, sorry, i went back to the question)
Actually, Uruk-hai are a combination of Orc and Goblins. men have nothing to do with it [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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#37 |
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Um, if you do not know if you are interrupting a conversation, it is because you have not read the thread.
Also, i want to know where you got that information: Give me a quote! (sorry bout that, Eol, but someone had to say it) Also, how could you be interrupting a conversation if the thread is a year old?
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#38 |
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Orks and Goblins are THE SAME THING! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
That's like saying Uruk-hai are a mix of Ork and Ork...which would be 1 Ork, NOT an Uruk-hai. Here's how I see it. Uruk-hai means "fighter folk." So, there are Uruks in Mordor and Isengard, ie stornger Orks, BUT the ones Saruman uses are half-Orks. Of course, some half-Orks are more manly, others more Orky (TOlkien descoribes them as Man-Orks (the Uruk-hai) and Ork-men (the "half-Orks"). The Orky ones are the ones called Uruk-hai in Isengard. They are not the same as the pure Orks called Uruk-hai in Mordor. And yes, Tolkien himself said (HOMEX) that whilst Saruman bred Men and Orks together to get the hybirds, Sauron didn't, for reasons of his own.
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#39 |
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Letter 78 and the essay Quendi and Eldar in WotJ provide the possiblity of an attested to translation for 'Uruk-hai'. Letter 78 says "Urukhai is only a figure of speech. There are no genuine Uruks, that is folk made bad by the intention of their maker". The pertinent portion of this is "folk made bad". In Q&E we learn that 'uruk' was borrowed by Sauron from the Elvish tongues when he was devising the Black Speech in the Second Age, and was related to words meaning 'horrible'.
If Uruks are "folk made bad" and 'uruk' is related to horrible, and 'horrible' and 'bad' are synonmous, then it could very well be that a reasonable translation of Uruk-hai (which is used interchangeably with its anglicization 'uruks') is: Uruk-hai: *bad-folk, *horrible-folk.
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#40 |
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"There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs: and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men."
LotR, TT The 'goblin-soldiers' are Uruk-hai. "Upon a stake in the middle was set a great goblin head; upon its shattered helm the white badge could still be seen." LotR, TT Another Uruk-hai, perhaps Ugluk "They had run a long way shouting-he could not remember how far or how long; and then suddenly they had crashed right into a group of Orcs: they were standing listening, and they did not appear to see Merry and Pippin until they were almost in their arms. Then they yelled and dozens of other goblins had sprung out of the trees. Merry and he had drawn their swords, but the Orcs did not wish to fight, and had tried only to lay hold of them, even when Merry had cut off several of their arms and hands. Good old Merry!" LotR, TT The Uruk-hai here are referred to as both 'goblins' and 'Orcs'. "Also the Orcs (goblins) and other monsters bred by the First Enemy are not wholly destroyed." Letter 131 "Orcs (the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc 'demon', but only because of its phonetic suitability) are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be 'corruptions'. They are not based on direct experience of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used as a translation in The Hobbit, where orc only occurs once, I think), especially as it appears in George MacDonald, except for the soft feet which I never believed in. The name has the form orch (pl. yrch) in Sindarin and uruk in the Black Speech." Letter 144 "This, Thorin, the runes name Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver in the ancient tongue of Gondolin..." The Hobbit Note the translation of ORCrist as GOBLIN-cleaver "Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kind)." The Hobbit, Foreword 'Orc' and 'goblin' are interchangeable and refer to the same type of being. <font size=1 color=339966>[ 12:17 AM December 14, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]
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