Saruman's Treachery

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

So we all know about this ancient hatred Saruman bore towards Gandalf & this disdain was further amplified because Cirdan entrusted to him the red ring of fire instead of him. Now, being knowledgeable of this... did he betrayed Gandalf to Sauron that he was one of the keepers of the Three? And what of the White Council? Saruman has long been one of the major leaders there, so did he not also betray Elrond & Galadriel & revealed to Sauron their true identities & the location of their havens?

[Fingolfin II]

In UT, I don't think it's explicitly stated that Saruman knew Gandalf bore Narya (forgive me if I'm wrong, I don't have the books)- but it is implied. Whether he betrayed this information to Sauron I'm not sure. It's likely, but I doubt it would have made much difference either way if he did; what could he do without the One Ring? Gandalf himself revealed that he bore the Red Ring to the Balrog, though admittedly I didn't understand what he meant until the last chapter.

As for the second part of your question, it is most likely Sauron knew where the havens of Elrond and Galadriel were located, either through Saruman or by some other means. That he knew where Lorien is situated is certain, as his forces assailed the Golden Wood. Rivendell is referred to as the 'hidden valley' a few times, so while it may be hidden from enemies, I'm willing to be that Sauron knew at least the general area in which it is located. Once more, Gandalf provides us with a handy quote saying that Rivendell could not withstand Mordor and if the Ring stayed there, eventually Rivendell will be overrun. To me this implies that Sauron at least knew the general whereabouts - or even the exact location- of Rivendell, and could defeat it at the last need.

In the movie, Elrond says 'Sauron's eye is fixed on Rivendell' (I'm not sure if he says this in the book), so that seems to be a further indication that Sauron knew where Rivendell was. But then again, can you really trust PJ?

[The Saucepan Man]

Rivendell was under siege by Sauron's army for a large part of the Second Age, so I should imagine that Sauron knew pretty much where it was.

Lorien was, as FinII has said, assailed by Sauron's forces during the War of the Ring so ditto.

With regard to Rivendell at least, this knowledge pre-dated Saruman's arrival in Middle-earth.

[Lalwendë]

Like SpM I'm sure that the locations of both Lothlorien and Rivendell would have been known to Sauron. How did he find out though? It is possible that he discovered this through powers of osanwe or thought- transference, if you've not read the threads located here and here , and I wouldn't be shocked if you hadn't as they are quite long and 'deep' . Although, the Three Rings pre-date the creation of these havens, so it could be down to simple espionage.

There are a few interesting things about Saruman and the nature of his treachery. he was clearly using the Palantir for his own nefarious purposes, which led inadvertently to Sauron gaining access to his mind and being able, to a certain extent, to control Saruman. But, it is also clear that Sauron did not have full control over Saruman, and I often wonder who was tricking who? And I also wonder whether in some way his 'power' was equal to or greater than that of Sauron.

Saruman carried out some very clever double-dealing by agreeing with the White Council in driving Sauron out of Dol Guldur so he could carry out his own search for the One Ring. I think this is the essence of his treachery; that he could betray the White Council by deceiving them as to his motives and also by keeping information from them. He deceived both of those he 'served' in pursuit of his own heretical aims, which not only shows the depth of his knowledge and skill, but how far he could sink in moral terms.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It is not just about knowing where Imladris and Lorien were. Sauron was clever enough to figure out that the 'air' was different in those parts, so to speak. I reckon he guessed long ago exactly where the Elven rings were.

[Nuranar]

Gandalf's ring was Narya, the ring of fire. Nenya was Galadriel's ring, the ring of water. And Elrond's was Vilya, the ring of air, and the mightiest of the three.

~ Nuranar
blessed with the curse of perfectionism

Edit: Lalwendë, I just read your post more carefully, and I was wondering: Are these two statements related to each other, or are they separate thoughts?

...I also wonder whether in some way his 'power' was equal to or greater than that of Sauron.

Saruman carried out some very clever double-dealing...

The bit about Saruman's power possibly exceeding Sauron's caught my eye, and I wanted to know more what you thought, but since I don't think power and treachery are the same thing, I was confused. Are you saying that since Sauron didn't have full control, Saruman may have been greater? Or that Saruman's greater power is displayed in his masterful treachery? Or something else entirely that I missed?

~ an inquisitive perfectionist

[Boromir88]

I don't think Saruman would openly inform Sauron about the rings (if he knew who bore them). Now, Sauron might have gotten that info from Saruman, through the use of the palantir, but willingly, I don't think Saruman would tell Sauron.

Saruman wasn't only against the good side, he was also against Sauron. As Lal points, out he does some tricky double-dealing, and quite bold (and foolish) moves, of trying to take on both Sauron and the rest of Middle-earth.

Sauron and Saruman's relationship reminds me a lot of Hitler and Stalin.
In Stalin's case, both him and Hitler strove for total domination. They signed this pact, of sort of not really allies, but not attacking eachother either. They didn't combine forces, they simply signed this pact, saying they would leave eachother alone. Hitler, again was just using Stalin, he wanted to deal with the West first, and then he would turn on Stalin. Hitler, by getting Stalin to commit to this pact, thought he didn't have to worry about fighting on two fronts (which defeated Germany in WWI). It wasn't until Hitler made his mistake of ticking off Stalin, and foolishly believing he defeated the Western Front, which led to his downfall.

In Saruman and Sauron's case, again they weren't really allies, fighting with eachother. More of just agreed, that they both had the same enemies, and they would refrain from fighting eachother. Sauron very much like Hitler, just using Saruman for information, and not having to deal with Isengard as an enemy. He was dealing with Rivendell, and all, first, then probably planned to turn on Saruman. Again...When it comes down to it, they were both striving for total domination, and were at odds.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Nuranar

The bit about Saruman's power possibly exceeding Sauron's caught my eye, and I wanted to know more what you thought, but since I don't think power and treachery are the same thing, I was confused. Are you saying that since Sauron didn't have full control, Saruman may have been greater? Or that Saruman's greater power is displayed in his masterful treachery? Or something else entirely that I missed?

I am thinking of how Saruman is able to fool both the White Council and Sauron. It is said that through the Palantir Sauron has managed to poison the thoughts of Saruman, but if he really has managed this, then surely Sauron would also realise the breadth of Saruman's knowledge about the Rings and their whereabouts? This suggests to me that Saruman's power must in some way be equal to or even stronger than that of Sauron. Of course, both use powers of deception to great advantage.

Saruman's knowledge of Sauron is welcomed by the White Council in driving Sauron out of Dol Guldur:

Saruman has long studied the arts of the Enemy himself, and thus we have often been able to forestall him. It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur.

Saruman also deceives Gandalf and so learns something of the Ring's whereabouts. But not everything. It appears that the Istari in general have strong minds. This is what Gandalf says of Radagast and how Saruman knew he could not be drawn into treachery:

'At first I feared, as Saruman no doubt intended, that Radagast had also fallen. Yet I had caught no hint of anything wrong in his voice or in his eye at our meeting. If I had, I should never have gone to Isengard, or I should have gone more warily. So Saruman guessed, and he had concealed his mind and deceived his messenger. It would have been useless in any case to try and win over the honest Radagast to treachery. He sought me in good faith, and so persuaded me.

'That was the undoing of Saruman's plot. For Radagast knew no reason why he should not do as I asked

As to the potential power inherent in the Istari - and I would include Gandalf here, along with Saruman, Elrond says the following:

Its strength... is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own. But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart. Consider Saruman. If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would then set himself on Sauron's throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear.

To me, this says that despite Rings of Power or other objects, some do have an inherent power, including Saruman. And though the Ring would only ever be able to be used for ill, there is still the potential that a figure such as Saruman could overthrow Sauron with it, and usurp his place as the Dark Lord (or would he be the many-coloured Lord?).

Ultimately, I think Saruman is easily the match of Sauron in his mastery of treachery. His 'term' in Middle Earth has been shorter and so he has not been able to build up the forces to match those of Sauron, but his knowlegde and skill are a good match. Saruman's great failing lies in the fact that although he believes his 'broken' or 'many-coloured way' is a new way, there is only one 'true' way in Arda, and that is the way of Light.

[Neithan]

Ultimately, I think Saruman is easily the match of Sauron in his mastery of treachery. His 'term' in Middle Earth has been shorter and so he has not been able to build up the forces to match those of Sauron, but his knowlegde and skill are a good match.

I disagree. Gandalf is said to be equal to Sauron and is greater than Saruman. Saruman did not have to be as great as Sauron to resist a total take over of his mind. Such things are rare and difficult (and probably impossable for one Maia to do to another). Sauron did manage to awaken evil thoughts in Saruman that were already hiding under the surface, but I am sure that Sauron new that Saruman could be treacherous, after all, that is quite common in evil servants. Saruman knew some of Sauron's weaknesses because of the time he spent studying his arts. This does not make him greater than Sauron. Also Saruman could not have invented the rings on his own, he was jealous of Sauron and of Gandalf. Elrond would refer to Saruman as having great power because, as a Maiar, he did have great power when compared to Elves and Men.
Saruman was powerful and skillful (especially with osanwe) but he was not as great as he liked to think he was. His jealousy of those greater than himself ate away at him until he became what he was. Very similar to Morgoth who was jealous of the gifts given to his brethren, thinking himself more worthy than they. Morgoth and Saruman both mocked and immitated those they were jealous of, the diffrence is the scale of their evil.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

it is most likely Sauron knew where the havens of Elrond and Galadriel were located, either threw Saruman or by some other means. That he knew where Lorien is situated is certain, as his forces assailed the Golden Wood. Rivendell is referred to as the 'hidden valley' a few times, so while it may be hidden from enemies, I'm willing to be that Sauron knew at least the general area in which it is located. Once more, Gandalf provides us with a handy quote saying that Rivendell could not withstand Mordor and if the Ring stayed there, eventually Rivendell will be overrun.

Like SpM I'm sure that the locations of both Lothlorien and Rivendell would have been known to Sauron. How did he find out though? It is possible that he discovered this through powers of osanwe or thought- transference

I can understand Sauron learning the location of Rivendell because of the 2nd Age war thing. But of Lothlorien, how can he know when Galadriel weaved some sort of enchantment on her land? & I can't imagine Sauron finding through Osanwe since he lacked the One Ring or maybe you meant via Palantir through Saruman? I've read a passage somewhere in the UT in the chapter of Celebron & Galadriel that Sauron had already perceived Galadriel to be his chief adversary during the crafting of the Mirdain & after the rings were dispatched... he only suspected that she would be the bearer of one of the Three. When he ransacked Eregion, he was thinking of Lorinand but decided it can wait. But other than that... Saruman could've told Sauron because obviously he guessed the right locations.

Btw...
1.) When Gandalf revealed to the Balrog that he was the weilder of the flame of Arnor, why the hell would the Balrog care since it did not know about the elven rings & it was obviously greater than it.
2.) "Weilder of the flame of Arnor." Why does this imply that he was reffering to Narya? Is there any historical background of this "flame of Arnor"? I've never heard of such.

[Neithan]

"Weilder of the flame of Arnor." Why does this imply that he was reffering to Narya? Is there any historical background of this "flame of Arnor"? I've never heard of such.

I used to think he was talking about Narya but I changed my mind, check out this thread, or this one. There are others, check the Forum Index.

As to whether Sauron knew of Lorien consider this quote,

"This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper.
"He suspects, but he does not know----not yet."

Of course he knew the location of Lorien out of past experiance and it was right near Dol Guldur. But he did not know for sure if Galadriel had a Ring.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Neithan

Saruman was powerful and skillful (especially with osanwe) but he was not as great as he liked to think he was.

Neithan - these are good points. Perhaps where Saruman's particular skill lies is in his mastery of osanwe. This could throw some light on the dangerous power of his voice; it certainly could throw the whole of Book 3, Chapter 10 - The Voice of Saruman into perspective. He is able to truly get into the heads of many of those who listen, and it is notable that Gandalf is well aware that he will seek to do this.

His jealousy of those greater than himself ate away at him until he became what he was.

I still think that Saruman possessed an incredible inherent power (I will have to refer to UT to check whether any of the Istari are mentioned as having particular skills), but I agree that this was surpassed by that of Gandalf particularly after his 'rebirth'. Saruman was indeed corrupted by the envy and pride which led him into heresy and into alliance with Sauron. If he had been on Middle Earth longer, then I do think he could have built up a power to rival that of Mordor; was this his intention? Was Saruman driven into rash action by the sudden plunge into the War of the Ring? If the ring had not been found and Sauron had not launched into war, then would Saruman eventually have stood against him?

The difference between Saruman and Gandalf was that the latter carried out what he had been charged to do and in effect kept faith in the Light, while the former abandoned his mission and instead followed his own path. I do think that this treacherous tendency was inherent in Saruman as it was, even without any influence from Sauron, which brings up another question, and that is why was he allowed to be the leader of the White Council for so long?

[Neithan]

This could throw some light on the dangerous power of his voice

My thoughts exactly.

which brings up another question, and that is why was he allowed to be the leader of the White Council for so long?

Politics, what are you gonna do

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

I can understand Sauron learning the location of Rivendell because of the 2nd Age war thing. But of Lothlorien, how can he know when Galadriel weaved some sort of enchantment on her land? & I can't imagine Sauron finding through Osanwe since he lacked the One Ring or maybe you meant via Palantir through Saruman? I've read a passage somewhere in the UT in the chapter of Celebron & Galadriel that Sauron had already perceived Galadriel to be his chief adversary during the crafting of the Mirdain & after the rings were dispatched... he only suspected that she would be the bearer of one of the Three. When he ransacked Eregion, he was thinking of Lorinand but decided it can wait. But other than that... Saruman could've told Sauron because obviously he guessed the right locations.

I have to disagree. Sauron knew that there was an Elven kingdom buried in the Golden Wood. He had to. If the common people of Rohan knew about the "Enchantress" in the Golden Wood, and had known so since they had passed down to Calenardhon for the first time, then surely Sauron, with his enormous web of servants and spies, would have known there was an Elven kingdom. And it wouldn't have taken much guessing to figure out just who the sorceress was.

As for whether or not he knew where the Rings were, he must have guessed they were with the Elves. He might have guessed that there was one in any of the following places: Mithlond, Rivendell, Mirkwood, and Lorien. Is there reason to believe that he suspected one was with the Istari? I think not. Saruman, he knew, obviously didn't have one. And if Aragorn could shield his mind from Sauron, surely a fellow Maia could have kept some information hidden (information like how much more respected Gandalf was by Galadriel, Elrond, and Cirdan).

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Btw...
1.) When Gandalf revealed to the Balrog that he was the weilder of the flame of Arnor, why the hell would the Balrog care since it did not know about the elven rings & it was obviously greater than it.
2.) "Weilder of the flame of Arnor." Why does this imply that he was reffering to Narya? Is there any historical background of this "flame of Arnor"? I've never heard of such.

For the record, it was the Flame of ANOR, nor ARNOR. The Flame of the Sun (or of light in general), not the Flame of the Royal Kingdom.

I don't see that this necessarily refers to Narya. Remember that Gandalf also calls the Balrog "Flame of Udun" (Flame of Darkness, more or less). This title/power of the Balrog's would seem to be tied to his power as a vassal of Morgoth. In the same way, Gandalf's parallel (and superior?) power of the Flame of Anor, would be tied to his power as the vassal of Manwe, and the forces of goodness.

Another thought: if Gandalf had used Narya, surely Frodo would have felt it?

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Another thought: if Gandalf had used Narya, surely Frodo would have felt it?

What an astute observation. But Gandalf as a maia may have added some extra mojo on that secrecy. My hypothesis is that Gandalf did not use the Red Ring until after he was resurrected as Gandalf the White. Why? Because simply as you have said, Frodo did not feel it nor recognized as he did with the Lady Galadriel. But did not Galadriel chose freely to confirm it herself?

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I doubt Saruman would give Sauron any inside information.

He was probably personally looking forward to taking the minds of Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond once he found the One Ring. But to do that, he had to get it before Sauron did.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

What an astute observation. But Gandalf as a maia may have added some extra mojo on that secrecy. My hypothesis is that Gandalf did not use the Red Ring until after he was resurrected as Gandalf the White. Why? Because simply as you have said, Frodo did not feel it nor recognized as he did with the Lady Galadriel. But did not Galadriel chose freely to confirm it herself?

I think that Frodo hadn't the skill nor the mental prowess to discern ringbearers from common folk when he hung out with Gandalf. He was growing in his 'ring strength,' yet had not seen the 'lidless Eye' until Lothlorien, after which time Galadriel reveals herself as, seemingly, she now knows that Frodo can see her Ring.

And if he did notice something a bit different about Gandalf, he may have thought that this was do to 'exposure' - seeing more into the nature of his friend and mentor.

Gandalf's statement on the Bridge is not in regards to his Ring. I always associated it with Iluvatar, but this may not be right either.

Saruman may have never mentioned (or even showed an interest in) any of the Elven Rings in order to dissemble his motives. And didn't he create a ring of his own?

Sauron knew full well where at least two of the Three lay. Think about it - you're the (almost) all-seeing Eye, yet there's these blank spots on the 'map' that for some reason you can never see into. I know where I would look. Or did Galadriel and Elrond have some kind of shielding device that confused Sauron?

And Sauron's mind wasn't 'firewalled' in the least. Saruman must have picked his mind about the ringmaking, and Galadriel said something about 'knowing his thoughts,' and I think that Gandalf ran around in there too ('he's afraid').