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#1 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Mt Gundabad
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"Do not speak to me of dragon fire"
In Desolation of smaug when king Thranduil says "do not speak to me of dragon fire" and the scaring appears on his face as if concealed by magic, what is this meant to signify happened in his past? I know I missed something.
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Orc of Mt Gundabad |
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#2 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
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The last time he got drunk?
![]() Any other guess I cannot hazard, since I haven't seen the movies (of which it seems you're asking).
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#3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The Deepest Forges of Ered Luin
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That was odd. I always thought elves were immune to scarring.
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#4 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
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I never thought Elves wouldn't have scars. I was sure they can. But at the moment I can't think of a single good example either for or against; the best my brain is offering at the moment is a few ideas about the biology of wound healing and tissue regeneration, which I don't want to go into. But hey, the slaves of Thangorodrim (or at least Gwindor) appeared aged, as old Men; and limbs that were chopped off didn't grow themselves back - so eternal youth and beauty aren't always guaranteed.
But back to the question. Although I have watched the 2nd Hobbit movie, I evidently didn't pay enough attention. When was this said? Or even better - can you find a video of that scene?
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#5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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I remember this bit but there's no explanation for it in the theatrical release of any of the films.
I have a feeling it might be explained in an extended edition (none of which I've seen for the "Hobbit" films) perhaps with some reference to the Grey Mountains or something. There is (to the best of my knowledge) nothing in the real story from the books to suggest that Thranduil had ever encountered dragons in his life, although I suppose it's possible.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
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#6 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
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Quote:
As has been clearly demonstrated though, movie writers need not stick to the source material for 'inspiration'.
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#7 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
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It turns out (perhaps unsurprisingly) that a quick Google search revealed the answer:
From http://scifi.stackexchange.com/quest...ng-with-thorin Quote:
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
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#8 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
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The thing is, the Elves in Mirkwood weren't isolated at all. They had a thriving trade with Lake-town. Their problem was specifically with Dwarves. Never mind. Silly me with my book-readin' and all. ![]()
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#9 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
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Quote:
In the first "Hobbit" film (filling in because you haven't seen it) they unnecessarily try to explain why Elves and Dwarves don't get along. The real answer has to do with the slaying of Thingol (and to an extent the awakening of the Balrog) as we know. However, the film explains it by saying that Thranduil and his Elves showed up to watch Erebor being attacked by Smaug but did nothing to help. Who knows why they would have bothered showing up to watch; it's just one of the many daft things that happens in the film, in my opinion for the sake of forced "drama". Thus they later have to explain why Thranduil didn't help, when they wouldn't have had that problem at all if they'd just thought "audiences will accept that Elves and Dwarves have often struggled to be friends". Frankly I don't see why they couldn't have told Lee Pace "your character is a very old, very proud Elf with a bit of a weakness for beautiful things; his extended family were in conflict with Dwarves long ago so he doesn't trust them much." I think it is probably a symptom of the films trying to be like The Lord of the Rings by having a large ensemble of major characters, when The Hobbit really has one main protagonist, Bilbo, arguably one secondary protagonist (Thorin) and a lot of supporting characters (Gandalf, Balin, the Elvenking, Bard, Beorn and so on). It wants to give each of them a personal, dramatic story like Théoden or Denethor. The films also rather contemptibly turn Bilbo into a supporting character in his own story, and lavish most of their attention upon Thorin, meaning that his antagonists, such as the Elvenking, need to be fleshed out more. This also presumably helped them to bloat the project to a trilogy as per Warner Bros.' request.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. Last edited by Zigûr; 02-13-2017 at 01:21 AM. |
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#10 | |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Mt Gundabad
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Quote:
https://m.youtube.com/?hl=en-GB&gl=G...?v=Q69yl9a4QPg Have never posted a link before so might not work ![]() I have wached the exstended edition and canot find any referance to the death of his wife exsept that she was killed at Angmar
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#11 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
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It's not based on anything whatsoever in the book either. I think this is something that only exists in the filmmakers' imaginations.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
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#12 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Quote:
It just makes me less and less rueful that I haven't seen the films.
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#13 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
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Quote:
In actual fact it might have something to do with an idea in the films (which is apparently expanded on in the Extended Edition) that Thranduil used to go and do homage to Thrór because he was the most powerful ruler in that part of the world (while resenting doing so and secretly coveting his treasures) and perhaps he was on his way to some kind of political visit to Erebor when he saw Smaug attacking and decided "let them burn" as it were. That's an awful lot of film embellishment coupled with interpolation on my part though. It's also possible that he was on his way to attack the mountain to recover those jewels he covets from the novel, which are embellished in the films to have belonged to the wife who was killed by dragons (which gave him the scar which was part of the original point of the thread). That's another thing that only exists in the filmmakers' heads, however. Either way, it doesn't look like he and his Elves were en route; it looks like they were just waiting around for no reason, an example of the clumsiness in the visual language of the films that is very common. In the rest of the films, Mirkwood is still several days' march from the Mountain as it is in the book.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. Last edited by Zigûr; 02-13-2017 at 08:50 AM. |
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#14 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
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#15 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
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That is to say, why Thranduil and his people certainly aren't perfect, they are "good people" and in some degree that is because they are not to the same degree affected by the traits upon which the novel looks unfavourably.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
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#16 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Of course, when Tolkien wrote them they were Avari: not evil, but certainly eerie, "primitive" and dangerous. As much as anything he was differentiating them from the "civilized" Eldar of Beleriand.
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#17 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
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Quote:
![]() Alternately, maybe they lived entirely on hunted white deer and cave-grown mushrooms (washed down with a healthy dose of Dorwinion wine, which was presumably tribute, not trade, if they didn't trade...). Maybe we can craft a fanfic where the early Hobbits pass through Thranduil's halls on their way to the Anduin Vale and pick up their racial +1 to Mushroom-eating there... ![]() |
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#18 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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So, have we established there isn't anything more about Thranduil's history with dragons in the EE?
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#19 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
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The "fey" nature of the Silvan Elves in TH certainly reflects the folklore of the British Isles (particularly Gaelic Ireland, Wales and Scotland), where unwanted visitors stumble upon a glimpse of Faery (usually walking into a "fairy ring" - a circular growth of mushrooms), only to have the scene suddenly snuffed out and the bewildered person left alone in the dark (or in more malign tales spirited away forever). The appearance of a white hart or stag also portends the supernatural, and is a motif often used in the Arthurian cycle. That the ElvenKing lives in a subterranean palace fits perfectly with Celtic mythos.
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#20 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I actually thought that was a fairly good addition. Tolkien's characterisation of Thranduil in The Hobbit was a bit light (although it didn't matter, as he was a bit part character in a light children's story). The reveal visually emphasised Thranduil's magical nature and his ancient age, and gave him a more compelling reason for being recalcitrant than just being a suspicious old elf (which works in the books but not really in a film context where we are used to the Elves being paragons of virtue).
It's one example of these movies' central problem. They had a few good story ideas peppered throughout a rushed, trashy mess. They should have been given twice the time to make two quality movies with a clear directorial vision. We got to see glimpses of the movies they could have been i.e. slightly more fantastical and lighter in tone than LOTR, closer to Tolkien's vision, with more exploration of the races of Middle Earth, instead of LOTR's huge set piece good-vs-evil battles. It's a shame they had so little of Gollum riddling and dwarves singing, and so much Legolas CGI acrobatics. |
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