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#1 | ||||
Laconic Loreman
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Isildur
Quoting Huinesoron from the Amazon series movie thread, because it sparked some of my thoughts about Isildur (in the books)L
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As Gandalf says about Boromir's test: Quote:
Perhaps what points most in favor of Huey's statement is that Gil-galad and Elendil defeated Sauron (according to the Silmarillion): Quote:
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![]() Anyway, I have a gripe to pick with Huey, because it was always easier just to cast aside Peter Jackson's portrayal of Isildur more out of convenience, as a "weakness" that Aragorn had to overcome. As Aragorn says in the films, the same blood flows through him; "the same weakness." But now he's got me thinking that perhaps it wasn't a complete fabrication by Jackson to fit his narrative, that perhaps Isildur was weak.
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#2 |
Gruesome Spectre
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I haven't been back to the series thread, but I would just question whether anyone could have been capable of destroying the One at the moment when it could actually have been done.
The Ring had just left Sauron's hand; its power was at its zenith for that reason, and also because it was actually in Mordor. Humble Frodo the Hobbit couldn't do it when he had the chance. And it we're laying blame on Isildur for not destroying the One, why not look at the keepers of the Three? They knew the peril of keeping (not to mention using) their rings, yet took no steps to do away when Vilya, Nenya, and Narya.
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#3 | |
Laconic Loreman
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What I mean is, you take a look at the snippet of him sneaking into Armenelos and saving the fruit of Nimloth, it shows to me Isildur is actually a strong (in terms of his will) character. He's listening to his grandfather tell the story of the White Tree to his father and brothers. Isildur decided on his own to sneak in and save it, he's not told to do this task by anyone else. Its his own will that makes this decision, and his success is said to win him "renown." Fast forward to him claiming the Ring. I don't think proves Isildur was a weak character, quite the opposite. His "Fall" in succumbing to Sauron's weapon, actually has more impact on the story in Lord of the Rings. He is renowned for a heroic deed in Numenor, and even Isildur was corrupted by the power of Sauron. It only proves why Boromir's and Denethor's positions to want to use the Ring are complete folly. Isildur's bane isn't an orc arrow, it is the Ring, that even brought down the renowned hero who saved the White Tree!
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#4 |
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Elrond and Cirdan should have pushed him in. They would then not be dealing with the lure of the Ring themselves, they would have been killing Isildur in a manner that conveniently would have taken care of three thousand years worth of problems.
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#5 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
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Isildur is weak, and that's what makes him interesting.
(Oh yes, I'm doubling down.) How you see Isildur depends on how much of his story you accept. If you just take what's in LotR, then he's a pretty straight archetype: he's a noble warrior-king who is immediately corrupted by the One Ring. For LotR, that's all he needs to be - an explanation for why the Ring still exists, and a warning/foreshadowing of Frodo's similar failure at the last. But then you go back to the Silmarillion, and you learn about his rescue of the fruit of the White Tree, and his grievous injury. You see that he was a very strong character, a brave leader of men and commander of ships. You come to see his failure as a tragedy, a strong hero broken by what must be nigh-unbeatable power. But there's more to him than that. If you go back to the incomplete Lost Road, you find Elendil's conversations with his son, who at this point goes by the name of Herendil. And Herendil... supports the king. He's proud of Numenor's might. He warns his father about the dangers of being an Elf-friend. He voices a pro-Sauron viewpoint! If you accept that Herendil is a proto-Isildur (which I think is inarguable), and that Tolkien would have retained these aspects of him (which I do), then... he's weak. He's drawn astray by the lure of power and might. But he becomes strong. Sneaking into the palace and retrieving the fruit is an act of strength, because it's not about power. It's about saving something that is beautiful and sacred, but in practical terms useless. It's not just Isildur being heroic - it's the former Herendil getting over his focus on physical power and accepting that the 'useless' can actually be more important. And that casts his failure at Orodruin in a whole new light. He's not just a hero who fell - he's a man who did overcome his baser instincts... but was consumed by them again at the last. It means that the temptation offered by the Ring was precisely the thing he'd thought he had rejected, but found that in its purest form he couldn't. And (lest you think I'm over-interpreting) this isn't just Isildur's failing - it is the failing of Numenorean men across their whole history. Quote:
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#6 | ||||
Laconic Loreman
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I would argue that The Council of Elrond Boromir is a very weak character. He is propped up as a renowned general and hero of Gondor during his time. Named after another warrior, the Ruling Steward Boromir. He is believed to be the stronger brother, but in "the test" Tolkien says that Farmir proved to be the stronger brother: Quote:
Yet, in the end Boromir becomes a stronger character. Boromir's story ends "heroically." He admits to Aragorn he attempted to take the ring, takes personal responsibility ("I am sorry. I have paid."), and dies obeying a command from his "King;" to find the hobbits and protect them. Quote:
Back to Boromir for a moment...he accepts personal responsibility for his weakness, seeing the fate Faramir sees (if Faramir were to claim the Ring, but Faramir rejects that power). Boromir sees it too, not in time to save his life, but in time to save his honor and "escape in the end." Isildur never sees this fate, and that is perhaps where I agree he is weak. He begins a strong and renowned hero for his deed in Numenor, but by succumbing to the Ring he dies in a dishonorable way, cowardly attempting to flee an ambush. Unfortunately for his sake, there are no young hobbits around to defend, and his "renowned deed" happened long ago.
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#7 | |
Laconic Loreman
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Double-posting for another thought has jumped into my mind, that in my opinion points to a character flaw (or weakness, if you prefer) within Isildur.
It's not that he refuses the council to destroy the Ring that makes him weak. I agree with Inzil that it seems hypocritical for someone like Elrond to tell Isildur to destroy the Ring, when he (and the other Elven ring-bearers) are unwilling to destroy theirs. One could argue though it's slightly different, because Sauron never corrupted the Elven rings and their bearers didn't use them to dominate/bulldoze the will of others. Still I've always believed the Elven Rings should not have been forged because where Galadriel was not fooled by Sauron, Celebrimbor was. Also I doubt it could have been known of Sauron's return, the counsel to Isildur seems to be based on the ground "everything that was made by Sauron should be unmade." The weakness though, is he claims it as weregild (according to Elrond's account at his council): Quote:
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#8 |
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Isildur exemplifies a recurring theme in Tolkien's mythos. He is a hero that fails the last test. Other examples are Frodo himself, Boromir, Denethor (whose entire line's sole duty was to preserve the kingdom for the return of the king), arguably Thorin and others. Of these listed, only Frodo survived his failure and suffered for it.
There are counter-examples as well; those who do not fail the last test. Galadriel, Faramir, Aragorn, arguably Sam, Elendil and others. These two types of heroes are in stark contrast to one another. I do not know that "weak" is the right term for Isildur. As someone commented above, criticizing Isildur for failing to destroy the Ring is blaming him for being unable to do what may have been impossible. Frodo and Isildur couldn't do it and Gandalf was afraid to even try.
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#9 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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#10 |
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I could look it up in Letters, if my copy was to hand, but Tolkien wrote (IIRC to Eileen Elgar) that NO one could destroy the ring at the Sammath Naur. It was beyond the strength of will of any, even a Gandalf. Frodo (and by extension Isildur) cannot be faulted for not doing the impossible.
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#11 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
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Gandalf recognized that when addressing Boromir's attempt to take the Ring from Frodo by force. Despite Elrond's words in the Council about Isildur's "refusal" to destroy the Ring when he could, he says nothing about why he or Círdan didn't simply take it from Isildur. They were afraid to touch it themselves.
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#12 | |||||||
Overshadowed Eagle
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Before: Quote:
After: It's been a long time since I've reread the Disaster of the Gladden Fields, and I'd forgotten exactly how weak Isildur is during it. Quote:
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In his final hours, Isildur shows two kinds of weakness. He refuses to even consider passing the Ring to another, even to preserve it from the Enemy or to save his son (who, incidentally, is lauded by the text in stronger terms than almost any of Tolkien's heroes); note that Bilbo passed this same test under no more pressure than Gandalf threatening to unfriend him. But he also shows himself as weak even by his own standards: he took the weapon of the Enemy, but in dire straits refused to use it - not because he feared it would turn to evil, but because he was too scared of the pain and too afraid for his life. EDIT: Oh, and a third weakness: he lost hope. Quote:
As the name of Elendur's esquire hints, what Isildur lost in his weakness was estel - that faith that the Powers of the world, whether in the West or Beyond, would give the heir of Elendil aid when he most needed it. They did - in the same "by good chance" sense that Tolkien employs repeatedly throughout LotR - but by that time Isildur had already given in, abandoned his duty, and fled "like a stag from the hounds". (And yes, still: fascinatingly weak.) hS
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#13 | |
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As for giving Narsil to his squire: if Isildur was contemplating E&E, he wasn't going to be lugging four feet of broken sword with him.
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#14 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
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Nor did the Orcs follow him - from DGF we know that he completely evaded pursuit, and was eventually just killed by random guards who were spooked by his sudden appearance. hS
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#15 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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Claiming it as weregild is also something that Tolkien might frown upon. Isildur makes a legal claim (claiming compensation and Sauron's most valuable possession for the death of his father and brother). However, it might not be seen as the moral thing to do, because Isildur is accepting payment for the death of his father and brother. He's essentially placing a value on their lives, and by accepting the payment (in gold mind you) Isildur's saying Sauron's debt is paid. It's like Denethor using the palantir, Tolkien writes that legally Denethor (by being in a position to rule Gondor until the King returns) could use the stone. And that "legal" authority to use the stone did grant some protection from Sauron, but I imagine Tolkien would still say it wasn't the "right" thing to do.
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#16 |
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Yet, given the stakes, why not take it from him by force? The needs of the one (pun intended) do not outweigh the needs of the many.
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https://pasteboard.co/u7em8VhAKm2m.jpg Because while I am sure images of Schwarzenegger Gollum have appeared somewhere, I am not sure that Spock Isildur Terminator did. ![]() In an alternate universe: - Is it dead? - Terminated. - Will this melt in there? - Yes. Throw it in. - Adios! - And the chip. ... - I have come. But I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The chip is mine! And that is how young Mr. Connor came to be the secret Lord of Skynet. ~~~ On a more serious topic now. Regardless of what Elrond and Cirdan's actual motivations were in the moment, whether it was wisdom or fear or ignorance which drove the decision, I think it is a good thing that neither tried to physically force Isildur to give up the Ring - or destroyed the Ring together with Isildur. That scenario would have been the exact picture that Sauron would relish seeing. One possibility goes thus: a selfless intention, for the greater good, logical, bound to work... because you are clearly the more wise and foresighted of this lot... and you can prevent the Doom of Arda or whatnot... at the price of your friend and ally... and any who disagree with your choice... but they are short-sighted emotional idealists, not everyone can be as wise and rational as you... And so ally turns on ally, friend turns on friend, blood gets spilled, someone defends someone else but no one agrees on what is right, the wrong people get killed, a civil war breaks loose, the Ring somehow escapes and rolls over to the Winchester to have a pint and wait for all this to blow over. And how about the other alternative, if the Ring gets pushed into the Cracks with or without Isildur from the first try? Everything goes smoothly and successfully, Elrond and Cirdan manage not to kill each other accidentally in the process, the Ring gets melted. It would be starting a new Age with coercion and force, and the idea that the end justifies the means - sort of resembles Feanor, don't you think? - sets a sour precedent, and creates perfect chance for the wheel of history to repeat itself. And the entirety of Tolkien's universe, its foundation and message, all start falling apart at the idea that such a deed could be considered a good moral start for the new Age. It would be killing the body because you failed to save the soul. It cannot be judged a good thing to do in the ideal sense. Moreover, even in the absence of the Ring, it is perpetuating the Ring's - Sauron's - Morgoth's - corruption, and therefore Sauron might not live on but his deeds would be thriving. And, I think, in a world that is more full of pathetic fallacy and prophecy than it is of cynicism, such a start to an Age would not justify itself for very long.
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#18 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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I got a bit off-track there anyway. What I was trying to get across was that Isilder's claiming the Ring for his own was not a moral weakness. It started to work on him immediately. I seriously doubt Isildur thought of the One Ring as a "weregild" in any real sense: he simply was justifying his possession of it, just as Gollum long after seized upon the idea of the Ring as his "birthday present". Gandalf says that Bilbo was the only one who ever gave up the Ring of his own accord, and even that was a very close thing. The greater one is, the more easily the Ring takes hold. With the knowledge that three hobbits were Ring-bearers, and two-thirds could not summon the will the give it up, I cannot blame the King of Arnor and Gondor for being unable to resist it.
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#19 | |
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#20 |
Gruesome Spectre
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I left out Sam, because he was the only one who really knew what the Ring was when he took possession. He was forewarned, and thus more aware of the tricks it might play.
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Note that while only Bilbo and Sam voluntarily relinquished the Ring, neither was attempting to actually destroy it. This is an important distinction when evaluating Isildur and Frodo's inability to cast it into the fires on Mount Doom.
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#22 |
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Fair point. Which interacts with the where- the option to destroy was only available at the Sammath Naur, which Tolkien tells us is where the Ring was at the absolute maximum of its power, and where nobody could have resisted it. Sam I suppose gets more props here than Bilbo, because he was actually in Mordor (or on its fringe), and Tolkien spend a great deal of Book IV telling us how the Ring ever waxed as Frodo got closer- but then Sam hadn't had it for sixty years either.
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#23 |
Spirit of Mist
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Another point is that while Bilbo and Sam "possessed" the Ring, neither "claimed" it, at least while having knowledge of what it was. Sam "borrowed" it but resisted the temptation to claim it. Bilbo considered the Ring to be his own, but without knowledge of what it was or its power, and even so had difficulty relinquishing it. Even Frodo did not "claim" the Ring until he stood at the Cracks of Doom. In contrast, Isildur had, at least, some idea of what it was and by considering it "weregild," actually claimed it. While this is a weakness on the part of Isildur, it may have played into his refusal to destroy it. Having claimed the Ring, it was beyond Isildur's power to destroy it.
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#24 | |
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Sort of a necrobump, but-
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